Time for Moderation?
 

This NG has is going through challenging times. Where once it was the
predominant boating NG populated by many industry experts, it has now
become little more than an off-topic chatroom. Most of truly
knowledgeable have long since abandoned this forum for saner climes.
Where once the very best advice could be found here, now serious
questions will most likely be greeted with flame.

Perhaps the time has come to convert rec.boats to a moderated NG and
restore its previous image. Yes, I know it would be a daunting task. To
win, the proposal must have 100 more YES votes than NO votes and
two/thirds of the votes must be YES. We could announce the proposal in
*all* the boating groups.

The moderation could be set up to recognize white contributors and black
contributors. Thus automating 95% of the moderation tasks. New
contributors could be hand moderated until they've posted two or three
times. Moderators could be voted on by the group, and a committee would
have to agree before a contributor was blacklisted (we don't need a
BoaterEd). Open on-topic debate WOULD be encouraged.

Should you be interested in seeing this forum as a moderated NG respond
in this thread. If there is enough support we'll just grab hold of the
tiger's tail and run with it.

--
Skipper

Time for Moderation?
 

"Skipper" wrote in message
...

Perhaps the time has come to convert rec.boats to a moderated NG and
restore its previous image. Yes, I know it would be a daunting task. To
win, the proposal must have 100 more YES votes than NO votes and
two/thirds of the votes must be YES. We could announce the proposal in
*all* the boating groups.

--
Skipper


Skipper and Skipper,

I have searched Google looking for the original rec.boats charter without
success.
To your knowledge, is there one? I think a review of the charter, if it
exists, should be a prerequisite to voting for or against changing it to a
moderated newsgroup.

The only document I found related to the early formation of rec.boats was
this FAQ:

http://www.gulf-stream.net/recboats/recboatsFAQ.html

RCE

Time for Moderation?
 

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Skipper" wrote in message
...

Perhaps the time has come to convert rec.boats to a moderated NG and
restore its previous image. Yes, I know it would be a daunting task. To
win, the proposal must have 100 more YES votes than NO votes and
two/thirds of the votes must be YES. We could announce the proposal in
*all* the boating groups.

--
Skipper


Skipper and Skipper,

I have searched Google looking for the original rec.boats charter without
success.
To your knowledge, is there one? I think a review of the charter, if it
exists, should be a prerequisite to voting for or against changing it to a
moderated newsgroup.

The only document I found related to the early formation of rec.boats was
this FAQ:

http://www.gulf-stream.net/recboats/recboatsFAQ.html

RCE


This proposal is from Skipper............a nice guy who re-entered this NG a
little over a month ago, with his first posts (over a 2 to 3 week period)
flaming and telling lies about Chuck Gould and other respected members here.

His recent posts have been nothing but trolls.........attempts to start
arguments.

Ignore him......he not worth any further effort on your part. ;-)

Time for Moderation?
 

RCE wrote:

I have searched Google looking for the original rec.boats charter without
success. To your knowledge, is there one?

I posted *all* existing rec.boats hierarchy charters a couple days ago.
Advice if you want me to repost.

I think a review of the charter, if it exists, should be a prerequisite
to voting for or against changing it to a moderated newsgroup.

There is a lot of info in usenet regarding changing a nonmoderated NG to
a moderated one. It really varies little from forming a new NG. Advise
if you want one of these cites reposted here.

The only document I found related to the early formation of rec.boats was
this FAQ:

http://www.gulf-stream.net/recboats/recboatsFAQ.html

And he spoke to the originator of rec.boats (John Hughes?) when he
developed that site.

--
Skipper

Time for Moderation?
 

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

I have searched Google looking for the original rec.boats charter without
success. To your knowledge, is there one?

I posted *all* existing rec.boats hierarchy charters a couple days ago.
Advice if you want me to repost.


A link would be appreciated.

RCE

Time for Moderation?
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
. ..
RCE wrote:
"Skipper" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

I have searched Google looking for the original rec.boats charter
without
success. To your knowledge, is there one?
I posted *all* existing rec.boats hierarchy charters a couple days ago.
Advice if you want me to repost.


A link would be appreciated.

RCE


I read that charter years ago. There was nothing of interest in it.

What charter? I don't think rec.boats actually *has* a charter.
Here's a reference to this subject by Peter Meek (remember the rec.boats
ball caps?)

http://tinyurl.com/dfguh


RCE

Time for Moderation?
 

RCE wrote:

I have searched Google looking for the original rec.boats charter without
success. To your knowledge, is there one?

I posted *all* existing rec.boats hierarchy charters a couple days ago.
Advice if you want me to repost.

A link would be appreciated.

ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/news.an...newgroups/rec/

--
Skipper

Time for Moderation?
 

Harry Krause wrote:

There was some old copy that circulated through the newsgroup as robot
postings every few months. It was pretty much useless verbiage.

That was *not* the charter.

Why Snipper is so interested in a "charter" and a moderated newsgroup is
beyond reason. Is he hoping to get rid of those he doesn't like here and
attract naive newbies who might actually believe the b.s. he spews here?

Doubt seriously I would be voted one of the mods. However, I would like
to see this NG return to its former form. It would take some time, but
suspect the best would return. I also believe you'd be one of the better
contributors in a moderated rec.boats...but *on-topic* and issuing
minimal insults.

Honestly, Krause, wouldn't you prefer to take the high road and see the
forum restored to the usefulness it enjoyed in the past?

--
Skipper

Time for Moderation?
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Why Snipper is so interested in a "charter" and a moderated newsgroup is
beyond reason. Is he hoping to get rid of those he doesn't like here and
attract naive newbies who might actually believe the b.s. he spews here?


That's my point to Skipper. I wanted to give him a chance to produce a
rec.boats "charter". There isn't one.

It is my understanding that in Usenet it is customary to vote on a change to
the group's charter to accomplish things like going from unmoderated to
moderated. Rec.boats has no official charter (that I know of) to vote for a
change of.

RCE

Time for Moderation?
 

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

I have searched Google looking for the original rec.boats charter
without
success. To your knowledge, is there one?

I posted *all* existing rec.boats hierarchy charters a couple days ago.
Advice if you want me to repost.

A link would be appreciated.

ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/news.an...newgroups/rec/

--
Skipper


Nope. No rec.boats "charter" there.

Got another?

RCE

Time for Moderation?
 

"Skipper" wrote in message
...

Perhaps the time has come to convert rec.boats to a moderated NG.....

Shut the **** up, you stupid little Nazi piece of ****. Better yet, fax me a
copy of your airline ticket to Rochester NY. If I know when you're arriving,
I'll arrange for you to be the next Houdini and vanish mysteriously.

Time for Moderation?
 

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:37:19 -0600, Skipper wrote:

This NG has is going through challenging times. Where once it was the
predominant boating NG populated by many industry experts, it has now
become little more than an off-topic chatroom. Most of truly
knowledgeable have long since abandoned this forum for saner climes.
Where once the very best advice could be found here, now serious
questions will most likely be greeted with flame.

Perhaps the time has come to convert rec.boats to a moderated NG and
restore its previous image. Yes, I know it would be a daunting task. To
win, the proposal must have 100 more YES votes than NO votes and
two/thirds of the votes must be YES. We could announce the proposal in
*all* the boating groups.

The moderation could be set up to recognize white contributors and black
contributors. Thus automating 95% of the moderation tasks. New
contributors could be hand moderated until they've posted two or three
times. Moderators could be voted on by the group, and a committee would
have to agree before a contributor was blacklisted (we don't need a
BoaterEd). Open on-topic debate WOULD be encouraged.

Should you be interested in seeing this forum as a moderated NG respond
in this thread. If there is enough support we'll just grab hold of the
tiger's tail and run with it.

Sounds like you need about 167 votes and 101 of those, with rounding, must
by yes votes. I don't think it stands a prayer.

About three weeks ago we were moderating ourselves very well. That has
gradually gone to crap, with a few personal attack folks and a few
political threads that quickly became personal attack threads.

Once you subtract those who desire the freedom to be as uncivil as
possible, you don't have close to 100 people left. I think you're wasting
your time.

My advice, start moderating your own posts, as many others have done. I
wish everyone would do the same.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

Time for Moderation?
 

RCE wrote:

It is my understanding that in Usenet it is customary to vote on a change to
the group's charter to accomplish things like going from unmoderated to
moderated. Rec.boats has no official charter (that I know of) to vote for a
change of.

Rec.boats was established without a charter. An original charter is not
required to change the moderation status of rec.boats, only the needed
votes after a great deal of ground work.

--
Skipper

Time for Moderation?
 

JohnH wrote:

Sounds like you need about 167 votes and 101 of those, with rounding, must
by yes votes. I don't think it stands a prayer.

And I think you're right, but it was worth the post to discover if it
was resurrectable.

About three weeks ago we were moderating ourselves very well. That has
gradually gone to crap, with a few personal attack folks and a few
political threads that quickly became personal attack threads.

Considering the quality of the remaining NG 'contributors', I had little
doubt the initiative would fail.

My advice, start moderating your own posts, as many others have done. I
wish everyone would do the same.

That is an ineffective approach, IMO. We'll see if there is enough
support by responses to this thread. It could well be that's what's left
here is not worth it...when in Rome...

--
Skipper

Time for Moderation?
 

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
RCE wrote:

It is my understanding that in Usenet it is customary to vote on a change
to
the group's charter to accomplish things like going from unmoderated to
moderated. Rec.boats has no official charter (that I know of) to vote
for a
change of.

Rec.boats was established without a charter. An original charter is not
required to change the moderation status of rec.boats, only the needed
votes after a great deal of ground work.

--
Skipper

I disagree. First, you would have to write a charter, as is. Then you
would have to call for votes to modify it. Won't happen in our lifetimes.

RCE

Time for Moderation?
 

Skipper wrote:
This NG has is going through challenging times. Where once it was the
predominant boating NG populated by many industry experts, it has now
become little more than an off-topic chatroom. Most of truly
knowledgeable have long since abandoned this forum for saner climes.
Where once the very best advice could be found here, now serious
questions will most likely be greeted with flame.

Perhaps the time has come to convert rec.boats to a moderated NG and
restore its previous image. Yes, I know it would be a daunting task. To
win, the proposal must have 100 more YES votes than NO votes and
two/thirds of the votes must be YES. We could announce the proposal in
*all* the boating groups.

The moderation could be set up to recognize white contributors and black
contributors. Thus automating 95% of the moderation tasks. New
contributors could be hand moderated until they've posted two or three
times. Moderators could be voted on by the group, and a committee would
have to agree before a contributor was blacklisted (we don't need a
BoaterEd). Open on-topic debate WOULD be encouraged.

Should you be interested in seeing this forum as a moderated NG respond
in this thread. If there is enough support we'll just grab hold of the
tiger's tail and run with it.

--
Skipper


"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
Moderate thyself Skippy!

Time for Moderation?
 

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
This NG has is going through challenging times. Where once it was the
predominant boating NG populated by many industry experts, it has now
become little more than an off-topic chatroom. Most of truly
knowledgeable have long since abandoned this forum for saner climes.
Where once the very best advice could be found here, now serious
questions will most likely be greeted with flame.

Should you be interested in seeing this forum as a moderated NG respond
in this thread. If there is enough support we'll just grab hold of the
tiger's tail and run with it.

--
Skipper

I don't recognize any serious boating questions being met with flames; only
with serious and knowledgeable answers.

The recent call to civility, in my opinion, has brought this groups content
to a much higher and more civil level.

I enjoy the non-boating topics that fill the space between boating topics.
As was said in another group, it's the filler that keeps the boating guru's
around while they wait for a boating question to address. I don't enjoy the
flaming and political and religious bs, but as I said, that is greatly
improved since the recent call to civility. I don't see a need for a
moderated group.

Bryan

Time for Moderation?
 

Skipper wrote:
This NG has is going through challenging times. Where once it was the
predominant boating NG populated by many industry experts, it has now
become little more than an off-topic chatroom. Most of truly
knowledgeable have long since abandoned this forum for saner climes.
Where once the very best advice could be found here, now serious
questions will most likely be greeted with flame.

Perhaps the time has come to convert rec.boats to a moderated NG and
restore its previous image. Yes, I know it would be a daunting task. To
win, the proposal must have 100 more YES votes than NO votes and
two/thirds of the votes must be YES. We could announce the proposal in
*all* the boating groups.

The moderation could be set up to recognize white contributors and black
contributors. Thus automating 95% of the moderation tasks. New
contributors could be hand moderated until they've posted two or three
times. Moderators could be voted on by the group, and a committee would
have to agree before a contributor was blacklisted (we don't need a
BoaterEd). Open on-topic debate WOULD be encouraged.

Should you be interested in seeing this forum as a moderated NG respond
in this thread. If there is enough support we'll just grab hold of the
tiger's tail and run with it.

--
Skipper


You've only got 35-40 people in this NG, at most, who would vote at
all. You don't have a prayer of getting 2/3 "yes", as well as a margin
of 100 votes.

If you seriously want to improve the NG, the only realistic path to
follow is to do the few things you *can* do. Post civilly. Try to stay
on topic. Don't get sucked in by the flame throwers. Don't be a flame
thrower. Try to discourage flame throwing.

Rather than pass "rules" or install a censor (aka moderator), it's
better to set an example.
Encourage on topic and civil posts with thoughtful and on topic
replies, and discourage
flame fests and OT "chats".

Most important of all may be *ignoring* the trolls who insist on
stirring up trouble here.


As soon we let the fact that "Poster X Started it!" (and I couldn't
bear to see him acting like an asshole unless I got to act like an
asshole too).....dictate our behavior here then we have surrendered our
rights of self determination. Nobody can cause you to act like a jerk
except yourself.

Time for Moderation?
 

Skipper wrote:
This NG has is going through challenging times. Where once it was the
predominant boating NG populated by many industry experts, it has now
become little more than an off-topic chatroom. Most of truly
knowledgeable have long since abandoned this forum for saner climes.
Where once the very best advice could be found here, now serious
questions will most likely be greeted with flame.

Perhaps the time has come to convert rec.boats to a moderated NG and
restore its previous image. Yes, I know it would be a daunting task. To
win, the proposal must have 100 more YES votes than NO votes and
two/thirds of the votes must be YES. We could announce the proposal in
*all* the boating groups.

The moderation could be set up to recognize white contributors and black
contributors. Thus automating 95% of the moderation tasks. New
contributors could be hand moderated until they've posted two or three
times. Moderators could be voted on by the group, and a committee would
have to agree before a contributor was blacklisted (we don't need a
BoaterEd). Open on-topic debate WOULD be encouraged.

Should you be interested in seeing this forum as a moderated NG respond
in this thread. If there is enough support we'll just grab hold of the
tiger's tail and run with it.

--
Skipper
Skipper,
It will be a lot of work, but I think you can do it.

--
Reggie
************************************************** *************
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

************************************************** *************

Time for Moderation?
 

Harry Krause wrote:
Reggie Smithers wrote:
Skipper wrote:
This NG has is going through challenging times. Where once it was the
predominant boating NG populated by many industry experts, it has now
become little more than an off-topic chatroom. Most of truly
knowledgeable have long since abandoned this forum for saner climes.
Where once the very best advice could be found here, now serious
questions will most likely be greeted with flame.

Perhaps the time has come to convert rec.boats to a moderated NG and
restore its previous image. Yes, I know it would be a daunting task. To
win, the proposal must have 100 more YES votes than NO votes and
two/thirds of the votes must be YES. We could announce the proposal in
*all* the boating groups.

The moderation could be set up to recognize white contributors and black
contributors. Thus automating 95% of the moderation tasks. New
contributors could be hand moderated until they've posted two or three
times. Moderators could be voted on by the group, and a committee would
have to agree before a contributor was blacklisted (we don't need a
BoaterEd). Open on-topic debate WOULD be encouraged.

Should you be interested in seeing this forum as a moderated NG respond
in this thread. If there is enough support we'll just grab hold of the
tiger's tail and run with it.
--
Skipper
Skipper,
It will be a lot of work, but I think you can do it.



Are you encouraging Skipper or just playing him?
I personally think it is impossible to get the group moderated, and
believe that very few people in the group, including Skipper, want the
group moderated.

--
Reggie
************************************************** *************
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

************************************************** *************

Time for Moderation?
 

Harry Krause wrote:
Reggie Smithers wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
Reggie Smithers wrote:
Skipper wrote:
This NG has is going through challenging times. Where once it was the
predominant boating NG populated by many industry experts, it has now
become little more than an off-topic chatroom. Most of truly
knowledgeable have long since abandoned this forum for saner climes.
Where once the very best advice could be found here, now serious
questions will most likely be greeted with flame.

Perhaps the time has come to convert rec.boats to a moderated NG and
restore its previous image. Yes, I know it would be a daunting
task. To
win, the proposal must have 100 more YES votes than NO votes and
two/thirds of the votes must be YES. We could announce the proposal in
*all* the boating groups.

The moderation could be set up to recognize white contributors and
black
contributors. Thus automating 95% of the moderation tasks. New
contributors could be hand moderated until they've posted two or three
times. Moderators could be voted on by the group, and a committee
would
have to agree before a contributor was blacklisted (we don't need a
BoaterEd). Open on-topic debate WOULD be encouraged.

Should you be interested in seeing this forum as a moderated NG
respond
in this thread. If there is enough support we'll just grab hold of the
tiger's tail and run with it.
--
Skipper
Skipper,
It will be a lot of work, but I think you can do it.


Are you encouraging Skipper or just playing him?
I personally think it is impossible to get the group moderated, and
believe that very few people in the group, including Skipper, want the
group moderated.



I also believe it is impossible to get this group moderated, but am
curious as to why you believe that Snipper is opposed to such
moderation. He seems hot for it.

I believe Skipper was trying to emphasize the need for on topic posts.
I also believe Skippers West Coast vs East Coast, Floriduh etc. post are
efforts to get people to discuss boating topics. Anyone who has spent
more than a few weeks in any NG soon discovers what kind of posts will
generate the longest threads.

The problem with the West Vs East posts are they have been beaten to
death, no one is really interested beating the horse anymore, so they
generate NO on topic discussions. I find skippers posts about the
beauty of the Sea of Cortes to much more interesting than the Florida is
a piece of **** posts. Very few boaters in rec.boats have visited the
Sea of Cortes, and it would be a great place to charter a boat and enjoy
some very different boating and scenery. The last thing I would want to
do is spend a week or two in a tiny 22' boat, but it would be a great
time in a 36-40' trawler or sailboat.

Skipper may not get the Sea of Cortes often, but it obviously made a
lasting impression on him.

Skipper has also done some River Cruising which very few of us have
done. I would find that to be a better use for a small cruiser. It
would be easy to trailer, easy to maneuver around the river traffic, and
locks. It would also be easy to find a place to tie up for the night,
eat a great dinner and sleep ashore.
--
Reggie
************************************************** *************
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

************************************************** *************

Time for Moderation?
 

Reggie Smithers wrote:


Are you encouraging Skipper or just playing him?

I personally think it is impossible to get the group moderated, and
believe that very few people in the group, including Skipper, want the
group moderated.


Skipper's bored out there on the frozen prairie. He's just having fun
seeing what he can stir up.
I suggest he look into curling to pass the long winter nights...that is
if his gimpy knees will hold him up.

Time for Moderation?
 

Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

Reggie Smithers wrote:

Are you encouraging Skipper or just playing him?

I personally think it is impossible to get the group moderated, and
believe that very few people in the group, including Skipper, want
the group moderated.


Skipper's bored out there on the frozen prairie. He's just having fun
seeing what he can stir up.
I suggest he look into curling to pass the long winter nights...that
is if his gimpy knees will hold him up.



Curling actually looks like a lot of fun to play. But, like most sports,
I don't like watching it much. About the only spectator sport I enjoy is
"the baseball," maybe because of its pace and finesse, and because one
of the objects of the game is NOT to beat up on the opposing players.

As for Snipper's location, out there in Wichita-ville, I think I once
posted that when a reporter on the newspaper screwed up badly, he or she
was sent down to Wichita to find a write a feature story.

"Oh no, oh no, anything but Wichita..."

"Anything?"

"Anything!"

In those days, it was *the* real hotbed of racial, religious and
political intolerance. Many of the "good citizens" apparently never got
over "losing" Brown v. Board of Education.


Has to make you wonder why Skipper stays there..... now that he's
retired and seems to love the west coast so much.

Time for Moderation?
 

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:32:42 GMT, Don White wrote:

Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote:

Reggie Smithers wrote:

Are you encouraging Skipper or just playing him?

I personally think it is impossible to get the group moderated, and
believe that very few people in the group, including Skipper, want
the group moderated.


Skipper's bored out there on the frozen prairie. He's just having fun
seeing what he can stir up.
I suggest he look into curling to pass the long winter nights...that
is if his gimpy knees will hold him up.



Curling actually looks like a lot of fun to play. But, like most sports,
I don't like watching it much. About the only spectator sport I enjoy is
"the baseball," maybe because of its pace and finesse, and because one
of the objects of the game is NOT to beat up on the opposing players.

As for Snipper's location, out there in Wichita-ville, I think I once
posted that when a reporter on the newspaper screwed up badly, he or she
was sent down to Wichita to find a write a feature story.

"Oh no, oh no, anything but Wichita..."

"Anything?"

"Anything!"

In those days, it was *the* real hotbed of racial, religious and
political intolerance. Many of the "good citizens" apparently never got
over "losing" Brown v. Board of Education.


Has to make you wonder why Skipper stays there..... now that he's
retired and seems to love the west coast so much.

Family? Boating is not necessarily the sole driving force in decisions on
where to live.

IIRC, family is one of the main reasons you live where you do.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

Time for Moderation?
 

JohnH wrote:

IIRC, family is one of the main reasons you live where you do.

Yep, ~ 2000 miles away... ;-)

Time for Moderation?
 

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:37:19 -0600, Skipper wrote:

Where once the very best advice could be found here, now serious
questions will most likely be greeted with flame.

Evidence please. I have not found this to be true at all, case in
point, my recent question on DD671 diesels. Check it out.

Time for Moderation?
 

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:00:41 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

I believe Skipper was trying to emphasize the need for on topic posts.
I also believe Skippers West Coast vs East Coast, Floriduh etc. post are
efforts to get people to discuss boating topics.

I think they're trolls. Even a cursory examination of Snipper's language
indicates he is trying to start a fight with them.

The fish in Florida are much too smart to fall for that nonsense.

Things seem to be a bit slow in Kansas this time of year. If I had
more time I'd post a trip report of our weekend cruise to Cayo Costa
Island, the countless Bottlenose Dolphins that played in our wake
coming and going, the nearly deserted beautiful beaches, and the
emerald blue green tropical water.

Florida is certainly the pits.

Time for Moderation?
 

"Skipper" wrote in message
...
This NG has is going through challenging times. Where once it was the
predominant boating NG populated by many industry experts, it has now
become little more than an off-topic chatroom. Most of truly
knowledgeable have long since abandoned this forum for saner climes.
Where once the very best advice could be found here, now serious
questions will most likely be greeted with flame.

Perhaps the time has come to convert rec.boats to a moderated NG and
restore its previous image. Yes, I know it would be a daunting task. To
win, the proposal must have 100 more YES votes than NO votes and
two/thirds of the votes must be YES. We could announce the proposal in
*all* the boating groups.

The moderation could be set up to recognize white contributors and black
contributors.

What if you are half white and half black?

Time for Moderation?
 

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:02:21 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

The only bright spot is Johnson
County, a Kansas City, Missouri, suburb.

Everthing is up to date in Kansas City,

they've gone about as far as they can go...

Time for Moderation?
 

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:12:37 -0600, "Dan J.S." wrote:

What if you are half white and half black?

Snipper lives in a black and white world, mostly white I suspect.

Time for Moderation?
 

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:02:21 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


Things are *always* slow in Kansas. The only bright spot is Johnson
County, a Kansas City, Missouri, suburb.

LOL, Johnson County is full of snobs and snooty neuvorich.
Mark E. Williams