Exactly my point. They got what they want. A big cheap boat.

It seems like Opal is the company with bad quality. Probably they don't
deliver according to the expectations.

Bjarke

wrote in message
oups.com...
Bjarke Christensen (nej, det skal selvfølgelig være med K da jeg er
dansker) wrote:
Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you
know
of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ?

I don't know a Bavaria owner who dislikes the boat, in fact the owners
all seem to love them. I _do_ know a Bavaria owner who is very unhappy
with Opal, the UK importer.

But it's the whole idea. It is not defined. The idea is that companies
should decide for them self what to deliver to customers. Tell the customers
and deliver as promissed.

I don't know how to put it in correct english, but freely translated from my
native language, ISO9K/quality is about "Say what you do and do what you
say". Thats it.

Bjarke




"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"MJ" wrote in message
snip

I'm willing to listen... please show me where there are defined standards
for the actual quality of an item in 9000:2000.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Exactly. Quality is not defined by the standard. So, if they decide that
quality = 500 problems per 1000, that's ok as far as the ISO standard is
concerned.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig
være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message
. dk...
But it's the whole idea. It is not defined. The idea is that companies
should decide for them self what to deliver to customers. Tell the
customers and deliver as promissed.

I don't know how to put it in correct english, but freely translated from
my native language, ISO9K/quality is about "Say what you do and do what
you say". Thats it.

Bjarke




"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"MJ" wrote in message
snip

I'm willing to listen... please show me where there are defined standards
for the actual quality of an item in 9000:2000.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig
være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message
. dk...
But it's the whole idea. It is not defined. The idea is that companies
should decide for them self what to deliver to customers. Tell the
customers and deliver as promissed.

I don't know how to put it in correct english, but freely translated from
my native language, ISO9K/quality is about "Say what you do and do what
you say". Thats it.

Bjarke




"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"MJ" wrote in message
snip

I'm willing to listen... please show me where there are defined standards
for the actual quality of an item in 9000:2000.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com






All the ISO9xxx are aimed at running a better business.

If your business is to sell cheap yachts that fall apart at sea you can
still get ISO 9xxx certification.

--
Adrian Smith
www.YourStadium.com
Superb aerial pictures of UK football stadiums.

"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig
være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message
. dk...
Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you
know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ?

I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some
reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with
the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes
it and is seriously considering selling. Both comment that when beating in
only moderately rough seas the boats just don't want to point and they slam
a lot. They have both voiced worries about the light build quality and
fittings compared to older heavier boats they have previously owned.

Graham.

Graham Frankland wrote:
"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig
være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message
. dk...
Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you
know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ?

I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some
reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with
the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes
it and is seriously considering selling.

What does he wish he'd bought instead?

Graham Frankland wrote:

"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig
være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message
.dk...


Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you
know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ?



I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some
reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with
the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes
it and is seriously considering selling. Both comment that when beating in
only moderately rough seas the boats just don't want to point and they slam
a lot. They have both voiced worries about the light build quality and
fittings compared to older heavier boats they have previously owned.

Graham.

I've got a B32 (10.3mtres loa), bought new 4 years ago for under 50K
(sail away price with a few extras), and still worth roughly the same. I
like it, but with reservations. Anyhow, the boat show was an oportunity
to look at boats that one might prefer to own, so I climbed aboard a
Maxi 1050 which I've always fancied. Nice enough boat, but £140K!!!!
FFS, its hardly surprising that a Bavaria isn't quite up to the same
standard as a similar sized boat costing well over twice as much. Looked
at another way, can you really justify a price factor well in excess of
x2 for a boat which is perhaps a bit better built, but which will
probably never go further than the north Brittany coast, and then only
in the summer with a forecast of f6 or less!

wrote in message
ups.com...
Graham Frankland wrote:
"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig
være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message
. dk...
Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you
know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ?

I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some
reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with
the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes
it and is seriously considering selling.

What does he wish he'd bought instead?

He wanted a second hand Moody 31 but his wife insisted on a new boat because
"all second hand boats smell" and the Bavaria was all he could afford at the
time.
We first met them in La Rochelle a couple of years ago and virtually the
first thing he said was along the lines of - OK, it's a Bavaria so take the
****, everyone else does!

Graham.

"Pete Styles" wrote in message
...
Graham Frankland wrote:
"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig
være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message
y.dk...
Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you
know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ?

I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some
reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with
the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes
it and is seriously considering selling. Both comment that when beating
in only moderately rough seas the boats just don't want to point and they
slam a lot. They have both voiced worries about the light build quality
and fittings compared to older heavier boats they have previously owned.
Graham.
I've got a B32 (10.3mtres loa), bought new 4 years ago for under 50K (sail
away price with a few extras), and still worth roughly the same. I like
it, but with reservations. Anyhow, the boat show was an oportunity to look
at boats that one might prefer to own, so I climbed aboard a Maxi 1050
which I've always fancied. Nice enough boat, but £140K!!!! FFS, its hardly
surprising that a Bavaria isn't quite up to the same standard as a similar
sized boat costing well over twice as much. Looked at another way, can you
really justify a price factor well in excess of x2 for a boat which is
perhaps a bit better built, but which will probably never go further than
the north Brittany coast, and then only in the summer with a forecast of
f6 or less!

You make a good point and that's why they sell well, along with other French
boats, particularly to those who don't want the hassle of working rather
than sailing. Our 1988 well used Moody was actually more expensive than
your brand new boat PLUS I spent around £10k on refit. Fortunately, I'm
able to do 99% of the work myself and prefer the heavier build and sea
keeping qualities as we cover quite a few miles each year around the Irish
Sea and Biscay.

Graham.

Graham Frankland wrote:

"Pete Styles" wrote in message
...


Graham Frankland wrote:


"Bjarke Christensen" (nej, det skal selvfølgelig
være med K da jeg er dansker) wrote in message
ty.dk...


Isn't Bavaria bad reputation primarily among non-Bavaria-owners? Do you
know of a Bavaria owner that is not satisfied ?



I know owners of 2 Bavarias quite well - one with a 32 likes it with some
reservations and has also had a few problems with the in-mast reefing with
the fractional rig - hardly surprising. The other guy with a 34 dislikes
it and is seriously considering selling. Both comment that when beating
in only moderately rough seas the boats just don't want to point and they
slam a lot. They have both voiced worries about the light build quality
and fittings compared to older heavier boats they have previously owned.
Graham.


I've got a B32 (10.3mtres loa), bought new 4 years ago for under 50K (sail
away price with a few extras), and still worth roughly the same. I like
it, but with reservations. Anyhow, the boat show was an oportunity to look
at boats that one might prefer to own, so I climbed aboard a Maxi 1050
which I've always fancied. Nice enough boat, but £140K!!!! FFS, its hardly
surprising that a Bavaria isn't quite up to the same standard as a similar
sized boat costing well over twice as much. Looked at another way, can you
really justify a price factor well in excess of x2 for a boat which is
perhaps a bit better built, but which will probably never go further than
the north Brittany coast, and then only in the summer with a forecast of
f6 or less!



You make a good point and that's why they sell well, along with other French
boats, particularly to those who don't want the hassle of working rather
than sailing. Our 1988 well used Moody was actually more expensive than
your brand new boat PLUS I spent around £10k on refit. Fortunately, I'm
able to do 99% of the work myself and prefer the heavier build and sea
keeping qualities as we cover quite a few miles each year around the Irish
Sea and Biscay.

Graham.

For your sort of sailing, I suspect that I'd have spent my money the
same way as you did. As ever, horses for courses.
P.