wrote:
: I am not a kayaker but I wonder if perhaps they might make it harder to
: exit a rolled kayak. Being a sailor, I always wear one.

Didn't the director (or former director) of the CIA die when he fell out of
his canoe and drowned while not wearing a PFD. It's not just regular people,
it's people that should know better...

I argued with my ACA instructor trainer about this. They do all kinds of
stuff... getting canoes down and to the water and such, before they have
people put on PFDs. I'm a boy scout leader, and before we unload the trailer,
everyone has a PFD on. I asked her what about a kid taking off in a boat
while everyone is still unloading and such and she just said it was my
responsibility to make sure that didn't happen... well, it still is my,
responsibility, but just in case at least the kid has his PFD on. If they'd
just revise the order of steps in the training guide... the PFD should be
first on and last off... each time, every time...

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
wrote:
: I am not a kayaker but I wonder if perhaps they might make it harder to
: exit a rolled kayak. Being a sailor, I always wear one.

Didn't the director (or former director) of the CIA die when he fell out of
his canoe and drowned while not wearing a PFD. It's not just regular people,
it's people that should know better...

I argued with my ACA instructor trainer about this. They do all kinds of
stuff... getting canoes down and to the water and such, before they have
people put on PFDs. I'm a boy scout leader, and before we unload the trailer,
everyone has a PFD on. I asked her what about a kid taking off in a boat
while everyone is still unloading and such and she just said it was my
responsibility to make sure that didn't happen... well, it still is my,
responsibility, but just in case at least the kid has his PFD on. If they'd
just revise the order of steps in the training guide... the PFD should be
first on and last off... each time, every time...

Interesting idea. It might save a few bruised ribs from
loading/unloading mishaps, too.

"RkyMtnHootOwl" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:30:07 -0500, Galen Hekhuis wrote:

On 7 Dec 2005 15:17:35 -0800, wrote:

I am not a kayaker but I wonder if perhaps they might make it harder to
exit a rolled kayak. Being a sailor, I always wear one.

I am a kayaker, and a sailor to boot (lived aboard and owned yawls and
sloops) and I a gimp too, and I can tell you from experience that a PFD
doesn't make it at all harder for me to exit a rolled kayak if necessary,
neither does it make it at all harder to roll one the full 360 degrees.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Alone we can just aspire to be dumb, but together we can be truly stupid

It is a sad thing when people, full of enough life to determine to go
on a paddling adventure in order to enjoy the beauty of the world
around us, make a bad decision, and someone ends up dead. The others
has to live the rest of their lives with the troubling memory, and the
Guide will forever question his decisions which may put him out of a
job, and facing serious legal consequences. This we can be assured of,
this situation has many mitigating circumstances, but terribly sad
none the less.

Not to disparage the dead, but consider this, two people together, a
49 year old guy with all his attributes, and a 26 year old gal with
all her uh "attributes"

What the christ is taht supposed to mean?

makes for a pretty stupid stew

Please explain. Why does a 49 year old guy and a 26 year old gal make for a
stupider stew than, say, a 22 year old guy and a 30 year old gal?

Considering that he was married, the disparity of age, probable difference
in
rank, a long way from home, I expect they may have had other things on
their minds.

What the christ are you talking about?

When the mind process is divided, the thinking gets
muddled and stupid decisions follow. The guide may have recommended
that they use the PFD, but was he in any position to make them put
them on, or even hear his recommedation.

The guide may have never said a damned thing. Maybe they got in the kayaks,
and paddled out on the water.

I know a 49 year old that was in a similar situation

What situation???

and made similar bad decisions. Luckily, I lived to write this passage,
but I realize
in hind sight just how stupid, and lucky I was! RkyMtnHootOwl OvO

You mean you used to be MORE STUPID than you are now?!?

This is really stretching the imagination.

Picture this.....Take out at the Lower Yough.....the only way back to the
parking lot is on park buses which tow trailers that will hold 20+boats,
everybody scrambling to get their gear on\off said trailer, seen stuff fall
many many times from the "me first" mentality.....bottom line KEEP YOUR
HELMET AND PFD ON!
"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message
news:HdVlf.13601$Qf5.12161@trndny07...
Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
wrote:
: I am not a kayaker but I wonder if perhaps they might make it harder
to
: exit a rolled kayak. Being a sailor, I always wear one.

Didn't the director (or former director) of the CIA die when he fell out
of
his canoe and drowned while not wearing a PFD. It's not just regular
people,
it's people that should know better...

I argued with my ACA instructor trainer about this. They do all kinds
of
stuff... getting canoes down and to the water and such, before they have
people put on PFDs. I'm a boy scout leader, and before we unload the
trailer,
everyone has a PFD on. I asked her what about a kid taking off in a
boat
while everyone is still unloading and such and she just said it was my
responsibility to make sure that didn't happen... well, it still is my,
responsibility, but just in case at least the kid has his PFD on. If
they'd
just revise the order of steps in the training guide... the PFD should
be
first on and last off... each time, every time...

Interesting idea. It might save a few bruised ribs from
loading/unloading mishaps, too.

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...
For whatever it's worth...

I spent years as a member of a Dive / Rescue team in an inland
recreational waterways enviroment.

We never recovered a drowning victim who'd been wearing flotation.

We used to say that we'd never recovered a body that wouldn't have been
alive if s/he'd been wearing a PFD, but then a carload of kids drive into
a partially frozen river. I don't think even PFDs would have helped them.

There are lots of ways to drown in white water while wearing a PFD. Anyone
who's been around white water long enough knows someone or at least knows of
someone who has drowned with a PFD on. Often it's because of being trapped
under water by the current (in a strainer, for example). The one person I
knew personally who died wasn't trapped under, though. It was just enough
repeated trips under in really rough water.

-Paul

"Paul Skoczylas" wrote in message
news:0cYlf.195982$Io.111431@clgrps13...
"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...
For whatever it's worth...

I spent years as a member of a Dive / Rescue team in an inland
recreational waterways enviroment.

We never recovered a drowning victim who'd been wearing flotation.

We used to say that we'd never recovered a body that wouldn't have been
alive if s/he'd been wearing a PFD, but then a carload of kids drive into
a partially frozen river. I don't think even PFDs would have helped
them.

There are lots of ways to drown in white water while wearing a PFD.
Anyone who's been around white water long enough knows someone or at least
knows of someone who has drowned with a PFD on. Often it's because of
being trapped under water by the current (in a strainer, for example).
The one person I knew personally who died wasn't trapped under, though.
It was just enough repeated trips under in really rough water.

-Paul

What about getting a whack on the noggin?

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:57:03 -0500, KMAN wrote:

"Paul Skoczylas" wrote in message
news:0cYlf.195982$Io.111431@clgrps13...
"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...
For whatever it's worth...

I spent years as a member of a Dive / Rescue team in an inland
recreational waterways enviroment.

We never recovered a drowning victim who'd been wearing flotation.

We used to say that we'd never recovered a body that wouldn't have been
alive if s/he'd been wearing a PFD, but then a carload of kids drive into
a partially frozen river. I don't think even PFDs would have helped
them.

There are lots of ways to drown in white water while wearing a PFD.
Anyone who's been around white water long enough knows someone or at least
knows of someone who has drowned with a PFD on. Often it's because of
being trapped under water by the current (in a strainer, for example).
The one person I knew personally who died wasn't trapped under, though.
It was just enough repeated trips under in really rough water.

-Paul

What about getting a whack on the noggin?

Kman's been whacked on the noggin?

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:02:35 -0500, KMAN wrote:

"RkyMtnHootOwl" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:30:07 -0500, Galen Hekhuis wrote:

On 7 Dec 2005 15:17:35 -0800, wrote:

snip
It is a sad thing when people, full of enough life to determine to go
on a paddling adventure in order to enjoy the beauty of the world
around us, make a bad decision, and someone ends up dead. The others
has to live the rest of their lives with the troubling memory, and the
Guide will forever question his decisions which may put him out of a
job, and facing serious legal consequences. This we can be assured of,
this situation has many mitigating circumstances, but terribly sad
none the less.

Not to disparage the dead, but consider this, two people together, a
49 year old guy with all his attributes, and a 26 year old gal with
all her uh "attributes"

What the christ is taht supposed to mean?

I wonder what I could mean, let me think about it!

makes for a pretty stupid stew

Please explain. Why does a 49 year old guy and a 26 year old gal make for a
stupider stew than, say, a 22 year old guy and a 30 year old gal?

Didn't say it did, just that this does! There are plenty of other
recipes for stupid stew, that don't use MSG!

Considering that he was married, the disparity of age, probable difference
in
rank, a long way from home, I expect they may have had other things on
their minds.

What the christ are you talking about?

I wonder what I could mean, let me think about it!

When the mind process is divided, the thinking gets
muddled and stupid decisions follow. The guide may have recommended
that they use the PFD, but was he in any position to make them put
them on, or even hear his recommedation.

The guide may have never said a damned thing.

He may have, and that would be bad news, but then they may not have
listened anyway if he had!

Maybe they got in the kayaks, and paddled out on the water.

Apparently they did, unless the guide was a super dude that carried
them on the back of his kayak, and then knocked them off in the heavy
water to drown, except for the 26 year old who just kept swiming back
to his kayak!

I know a 49 year old that was in a similar situation

What situation???


Well since you ask, though I figured out how to be stupid by myself
and without a guide.

I went backcountry skiing by myself, not knowing what I was doing,
where I was going, and I didn't tell anyone else to be watching for
me! Nothing as glorious as an avalange, no, I just fell off the side
of the trail into a treewell, where I landed upside down, with a fully
loaded pack on.

My pack straps were locked, and I could not get it off! My skis were
still on, and would not release, and my feet had somehow got hooked
together with a ski retainer rope. I was hanging there for quite
awhile wondering what to do as I was slowly drowning in a fine
snowfall of snow, and I could have hung there for alot longer, except
that I finally grabbed my knife and started cutting ski retainer
lines, and pack straps. Finally I dropped free into the well, where I
was able to get reorientated, and dug my way out of the well, about a
two hour ordeal, and luckily just a short distance from my car where I
was able to get warmed back up.

I can see the headlines now, "Backcountry skier dies 100 feet from his
Car". Embarassing, stupid, lucky to be alive!

I have a few other stupid moments I could share also, if you would
like. I think the point of my sharing, is that we all do some dumb
things, that when we look back, we realize how stupid and lucky we
are! So when someone ask the question why someone would be so stupid,
I believe we all could fill the bill.

Add the feature of a couple of hot-blooded young adventurers to the
mix, and things can get real exciting. I did not see the Discovery
Channel special about the survival of some seakayakers, which is being
discussed on Paddlewise. If they had been opposite sex, the story
would have been on ABC primetime!

and made similar bad decisions. Luckily, I lived to write this passage,
but I realize
in hind sight just how stupid, and lucky I was! RkyMtnHootOwl OvO

You mean you used to be MORE STUPID than you are now?!?

No, now I am just perfecting it!

This is really stretching the imagination.

Oh, sorry about that, overexertion is a problem, for some! Especially
a nonentity cyberidentity who has never done anything really, but
assimilate real people experiences. You can do everything, anything,
perfectly, with no stupid moments! Must be nice! RknMtnHootOwl OvO

Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
I'm a boy scout leader, and before we unload the trailer,
everyone has a PFD on. I asked her what about a kid taking off in a boat
while everyone is still unloading and such and she just said it was my
responsibility to make sure that didn't happen... well, it still is my,
responsibility, but just in case at least the kid has his PFD on. If they'd
just revise the order of steps in the training guide... the PFD should be
first on and last off... each time, every time...

I did some training for a local scout troop a couple of years ago. The
put in was a mud bank at the bottom of a steep slope. I told everyone to
put on PDFs at the top of the hill before carrying the boats down.
Everyone did, except the Scoutmaster, who was a Navy Commander, and
therefore didn't take instructions from anyone. Guess who slipped on the
mud, fell on his butt, and slid into the water. Of course, I used it as
a teachable moment: "And so you see, Scouts, Commander Jones has just
demonstrated _why_ you put on your PDF before carrying your boat to the
water.

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the "It's Hawaii, it's too hot
to wear a PDF" whine.

Steve
--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

in article , RkyMtnHootOwl at
wrote on 12/8/05 4:43 PM:

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:02:35 -0500, KMAN wrote:

"RkyMtnHootOwl" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:30:07 -0500, Galen Hekhuis wrote:

On 7 Dec 2005 15:17:35 -0800, wrote:

snip
It is a sad thing when people, full of enough life to determine to go
on a paddling adventure in order to enjoy the beauty of the world
around us, make a bad decision, and someone ends up dead. The others
has to live the rest of their lives with the troubling memory, and the
Guide will forever question his decisions which may put him out of a
job, and facing serious legal consequences. This we can be assured of,
this situation has many mitigating circumstances, but terribly sad
none the less.

Not to disparage the dead, but consider this, two people together, a
49 year old guy with all his attributes, and a 26 year old gal with
all her uh "attributes"

What the christ is taht supposed to mean?

I wonder what I could mean, let me think about it!

Why did you say it if you don't know what it means?

makes for a pretty stupid stew

Please explain. Why does a 49 year old guy and a 26 year old gal make for a
stupider stew than, say, a 22 year old guy and a 30 year old gal?

Didn't say it did, just that this does! There are plenty of other
recipes for stupid stew, that don't use MSG!

Getting back on point, can you please answer the question?

Considering that he was married, the disparity of age, probable difference
in
rank, a long way from home, I expect they may have had other things on
their minds.

What the christ are you talking about?

I wonder what I could mean, let me think about it!

Why did you say it if you don't know what it means?

When the mind process is divided, the thinking gets
muddled and stupid decisions follow. The guide may have recommended
that they use the PFD, but was he in any position to make them put
them on, or even hear his recommedation.

The guide may have never said a damned thing.

He may have, and that would be bad news, but then they may not have
listened anyway if he had!

You have no clue. What is known is that they were novices, they had a guide,
they wore no PFDs, they went to a place where they should nove have been.

Maybe they got in the kayaks, and paddled out on the water.

Apparently they did, unless the guide was a super dude that carried
them on the back of his kayak, and then knocked them off in the heavy
water to drown, except for the 26 year old who just kept swiming back
to his kayak!

I know a 49 year old that was in a similar situation

What situation???

Well since you ask, though I figured out how to be stupid by myself
and without a guide.

I went backcountry skiing by myself, not knowing what I was doing,
where I was going, and I didn't tell anyone else to be watching for
me! Nothing as glorious as an avalange, no, I just fell off the side
of the trail into a treewell, where I landed upside down, with a fully
loaded pack on.

What does this have to do with a couple going kayaking with a guide?

My pack straps were locked, and I could not get it off! My skis were
still on, and would not release, and my feet had somehow got hooked
together with a ski retainer rope. I was hanging there for quite
awhile wondering what to do as I was slowly drowning in a fine
snowfall of snow, and I could have hung there for alot longer, except
that I finally grabbed my knife and started cutting ski retainer
lines, and pack straps. Finally I dropped free into the well, where I
was able to get reorientated, and dug my way out of the well, about a
two hour ordeal, and luckily just a short distance from my car where I
was able to get warmed back up.

I can see the headlines now, "Backcountry skier dies 100 feet from his
Car". Embarassing, stupid, lucky to be alive!

I have a few other stupid moments I could share also, if you would
like. I think the point of my sharing, is that we all do some dumb
things, that when we look back, we realize how stupid and lucky we
are! So when someone ask the question why someone would be so stupid,
I believe we all could fill the bill.

Add the feature of a couple of hot-blooded young adventurers

How do you know they were "hot-blooded young adventurers?" What the hell are
you talking about?

to the
mix, and things can get real exciting. I did not see the Discovery
Channel special about the survival of some seakayakers, which is being
discussed on Paddlewise. If they had been opposite sex, the story
would have been on ABC primetime!

Any chance you can possibly stay on the topic of these two people that died
and your bizarre and unsubstantiated comments about them?

and made similar bad decisions. Luckily, I lived to write this passage,
but I realize
in hind sight just how stupid, and lucky I was! RkyMtnHootOwl OvO

You mean you used to be MORE STUPID than you are now?!?

No, now I am just perfecting it!

There's not much room for improvement.

This is really stretching the imagination.

Oh, sorry about that, overexertion is a problem, for some! Especially
a nonentity cyberidentity who has never done anything really, but
assimilate real people experiences. You can do everything, anything,
perfectly, with no stupid moments! Must be nice! RknMtnHootOwl OvO

Yet another attempt at a dodge.

You've made stupid satement after stupid statement in this thread.