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E-Tec - Whats your experience?
Guys,
am thinking about getting a different boat. Most likely an outbaord 150 HP. I want a motor that: - is somewhat light - is as Quiet as possible - Robust Have been reading about Etec and it sounds like the machine to get ... too good to be true though .. Is an Etec 150 quieter as a Yamaha 150 4 stroke? How about fuel use? I guess is the same. How much oil doies the Etec burn with TCW3 and XD100 oil? Can an ETec be rebuilt? Whats your experience with Etec? What do you hear from the other guys? Thanks Matt |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:14:21 GMT, "NOYB" wrote: Tom, I've been liking everything I hear about the E-tec except for one thing. I can't get over how much the cost of the oil affects the cost to operate. If it burns oil at a 100:1 ratio, and you pay $30/gallon for the oil, that adds 30 cents to every gallon of fuel you burn. You are right about the 100:1, but, believe it or not - up to you, there is almost zero waste flowing through the crankcase. I don't know the exact figures because as I said, we haven't gotten around to doing the year end figures yet, but compared to my FICHT last year, the E-TECs burned close to 45% less oil - E-TECs EMM handles an almost total burn which increases efficiency by an amazing amount. Add the superior gas efficiency to a four stroke and you are well ahead of the ROI. horse power to horse power over a four stroke. So when the four-stroke guys are buying gas at $2.50/gallon, you're paying $2.80/gallon after you add in the cost of the oil. No - we figured it out based on last years figures that we were adding maybe .05˘ to a gallon of gas using the XD-100. Using the XD-50 you have a point. And with the new, improved XD-100, it might even be less than the .05˘ a gallon. For a guy like me who probably goes through 2000 gallons of gas each year, that's an extra $600 in oil costs. If the oil burn rate is closer to 50:1, then the oil costs jump to a whopping $1200 extra per year! I can't speak to your situation, but my Sea/Tow friend that I sub for on occasion says he saved close to 40% of his total fuel costs with his E-TECS. He has Suzuki's on his other boat so that's a decent comparison. If you do your own oil changes on the four strokes, your cost to maintain those four-strokes will run about $150/year. If you're paying a dealer to maintain the engines, then it's a whole 'nuther story. You'll pay about $500/year to maintain them, and you'll have the hassle of being without the boat three times as often as the E-tec due to the recommended service schedule. To me, this is the only true advantage. The weight difference between my Suzuki DF250 and an E-Tec 250 is practically negligible. And the Suzuki's 16" prop and lower gearing makes up for any perceived low-end grunt deficit common to four-strokes. I'd buy the one with the cheaper price tag and better dealer support. You have a slight point with the dealer support. Around here, we have a superior BRP/OMC guy who really knows these engines inside and out so that's not a major concern. As to price, cost isn't everything. Environmentally, E-TECs are cleaner, burn less gas and will beat the snot out of any four stroke horse power to horse power in top end and acceleration. I know a fellow who has a 185 Ranger with a 90 E-TEC and he can out run, out hole shot and out everything a comparable boat with a 150/200 whatever on it. I wouldn't have believed it myself, but he can out hole shot me in my 200 C Ranger and I've got 110 hp on him and a superior prop. There are pros to buying cheap, but I'd prefer to keep most of my money on this side of the ocean rather than Japan. The only reason Yamaha's and Suzuki's are popular is purchase cost because it isn't superior technology. By the way, I went to look at a 282 Grady White today - I'm thinking as my partner is finally financially secure enough and he wants to purchase the Contender. I'm not convinced I want a 282 - I'm thinking an Albin or maybe even one of the new Topaz, but I'm not a diesel fan. If you want outboards, I'd look at the Grady White or Pursuit. I chose the Grady because I heard that Grady White is far superior to work with if you have a problem after the sale. If you decide on diesels, be sure to check out Albemarle and Caroline Classic. I like that Albin, and it's extremely economical to run if you don't mind cruising at 18 knots on a single engine. |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
Tom, thanks for your info :) Is an Etec 150 quieter as a Yamaha 150 4 stroke? How about fuel use? I guess is the same. Not only is it quieter, it burns cleaner and is more fuel efficient by about 20/30%. Do you have first hand experience 4stroke vs Etec? Is a 150 Etec quieter than a 150 Yamaha 4 stroke? Not just at idle but throught the RPM range lets say up to 4500? at WOT we dont care ;) How much oil does the Etec burn with TCW3 and XD100 oil? Don't even bother wtih XD-50 although it will burn it, it burns about the same rate as the FICHT. To tell you the truth, I don't know what we burned this year in total as we haven't done the year end figures yet, but last year we used two and a half to three gallons total over the summer. I'll get back to you later today. Bombardier used to state on their webpage how much oil the motor uses .... with the special oil it was about half of the TC3 use ... I cant find that info anymore ... The oil use does not appear anywhere in their brochure ... Can an ETec be rebuilt? Any engine can be rebuilt. Are you asking if you could rebuild it? I am wondering because it has those specially coated cylinders (boron nitrate or whatnot) If you rebiuld the engine how doe the coating get back on there? One word of warning. There is a denizen who haunts this newsgroup who has a thing about this technology and will probably surface to attempt to dissuade you. You mean Karen? I think she does have points and what she argues makes sense. But it looks like these days the lean burn issues dont cause Kabooms anymore... I currently have a 200 HP optimax. It is great on fuel but gobbles up the oil .. also it is LOUD. The main reason I want to get rid of it ..... Boating is relaxing if you glide through the water but not if your eardrums are hurting :( If you want to ask more complex details, go to http://www.swsports.org, follow the email instructions and we'll chat about E-TEC. Great! I shall look into that :) Good luck - hope this helps you a little. It does, thanks again! Matt |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:30:34 GMT, "NOYB" wrote: By the way, I went to look at a 282 Grady White today - I'm thinking as my partner is finally financially secure enough and he wants to purchase the Contender. I'm not convinced I want a 282 - I'm thinking an Albin or maybe even one of the new Topaz, but I'm not a diesel fan. If you want outboards, I'd look at the Grady White or Pursuit. I chose the Grady because I heard that Grady White is far superior to work with if you have a problem after the sale. Well, I want E-TECs and I'm not sure what Grady's policy is on that. I believe they are tied in with Yamaha or maybe Merc. I know somebody who tried to buy a bare boat from Grady and couldn't - or so he says. After the holidays, I'll give them a call and see what's what. Grady factory rigs for Yamaha motors. But I'm pretty sure that you can order one rigged with whatever motors you'd like. I've always been a big fan of Pursuit as a boat and I'd look at one of those as long as I could get what I wanted. Pro Line also has a bigger boat now - I think it the 30' category which might be attractive, but that may also be a Grady situation. I'm not a fan of Proline. I do like the Hydrasports Vector line though. Like I said, I've got time and if I can sell my 20' Ranger bay boat to buy a 24' Ranger bay boat, I may wait a year to see what's what on the used market for something even bigger. But I hate diesels. Except in my pickup truck. :) Later, Tom |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 5 Dec 2005 12:40:41 -0800, wrote: Tom, thanks for your info :) Is an Etec 150 quieter as a Yamaha 150 4 stroke? How about fuel use? I guess is the same. Not only is it quieter, it burns cleaner and is more fuel efficient by about 20/30%. Do you have first hand experience 4stroke vs Etec? Is a 150 Etec quieter than a 150 Yamaha 4 stroke? Not just at idle but throught the RPM range lets say up to 4500? at WOT we dont care ;) I can stand in the stern of the Contender at WOT and carry on a normal conversation. Twin E-TEC 225s. The only thing that inhibits conversation is the wind noise. How much oil does the Etec burn with TCW3 and XD100 oil? Don't even bother wtih XD-50 although it will burn it, it burns about the same rate as the FICHT. To tell you the truth, I don't know what we burned this year in total as we haven't done the year end figures yet, but last year we used two and a half to three gallons total over the summer. I'll get back to you later today. Bombardier used to state on their webpage how much oil the motor uses ... with the special oil it was about half of the TC3 use ... I cant find that info anymore ... The oil use does not appear anywhere in their brochure ... It's about or better than that - I'll have some figures for you later on tonight. Can an ETec be rebuilt? Any engine can be rebuilt. Are you asking if you could rebuild it? I am wondering because it has those specially coated cylinders (boron nitrate or whatnot) If you rebiuld the engine how doe the coating get back on there? I'm probably being dense here, but if you are rebuilding, you'd want to use a new block anyway. One word of warning. There is a denizen who haunts this newsgroup who has a thing about this technology and will probably surface to attempt to dissuade you. You mean Karen? I think she does have points and what she argues makes sense. But it looks like these days the lean burn issues dont cause Kabooms anymore... That wasn't the issue to begin with. The issue was the FICHT injector. And Karen has no personal knowledge of this having never owned one. And the issues weren't across the spectrum of the FICHT line but only involved the 150/175 block and not all of them. I've never owned a ficht but that didn't debar me from correctly telling you chapter & verse they wouldn't work & they didn't. Much more they didn't because of the exact reasons we gave you in early 98. As for not "knowing" how the injector worked we were the only ones who knew how it worked!!! because OMC had fed the dealers BS, you were not around in those days Tom but eventually we got Bill to actually pull a Ficht injector apart & only then did he concede it wasn't an electromagnet driven piston in a bore. Once he took our challenge to clock the ball against the bore he discovered exactly as we'd been telling him for months that the ONLY pressure rise was the pebble in a bucket effect which Ficht had been trying to flog for years & none of the proper engine people bought it till OMC fell for it. Ficht of course then brought OMC down & also ****ed another 1.3 US$ Bill against the retirees wall:-) When I owned three FICHTs, I had one that had some problems and it was with the EMM and not with the injector system. Bombardier replaced the EMM, wiring harness, updated the software, new stator (which is what failed) and new injectors at no cost to me - this was an OMC motor. Karen claims that this proves that there is a 33% failure rate. What it proved is that Karen is an idiot. No the head of OMC himself gave the world a 1 in 5 failure rate, which you & the dealers then tried to spin to something other than his own public admissions. I merely pointed out & do here again you have had a 33% failure rate on your own Fichts. Where am i wrong??? I used to have some respect for her opinons on other issues and often said so, but not any more. She's burned another bridge on the NG. Gee & I care?? if you are silly enough to keep throwing money at a failed technology that's OK indeed thanks I enjoy your admissions of failures. I've owned FICHTs and I have E-TECs now. The previous FICHTs that I had on my old Contender are solid as a rock and they are now approaching 1,400 hours. Ha ha ha 1400 hours:-) As one who knows what that means in terms of boating hours on a fast boat like that I guess you get off light because most here just choose to believe, please note me exception:-) Again just do you know your Ficht failure was caused by detonation, due to a design defect where the engine is deliberately run very lean at low to mid power & with very poor fuel atomisation due to very low injection pressure. Great thing about NGs Tom is you can have your say but so can I. K I currently have a 200 HP optimax. It is great on fuel but gobbles up the oil .. also it is LOUD. The main reason I want to get rid of it Well, you won't regret it. Compared to the Optimax, you won't regret it. Boating is relaxing if you glide through the water but not if your eardrums are hurting :( If you want to ask more complex details, go to http://www.swsports.org, follow the email instructions and we'll chat about E-TEC. Great! I shall look into that :) Good luck - hope this helps you a little. It does, thanks again! Any time. Later, Tom |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
K. Smith wrote:
That wasn't the issue to begin with. The issue was the FICHT injector. And Karen has no personal knowledge of this having never owned one. And the issues weren't across the spectrum of the FICHT line but only involved the 150/175 block and not all of them. I've never owned a ficht but that didn't debar me from correctly telling you chapter & verse they wouldn't work & they didn't. Much more they didn't because of the exact reasons we gave you in early 98. As for not "knowing" how the injector worked we were the only ones who knew how it worked!!! because OMC had fed the dealers BS, you were not around in those days Tom but eventually we got Bill to actually pull a Ficht injector apart & only then did he concede it wasn't an electromagnet driven piston in a bore. Once he took our challenge to clock the ball against the bore he discovered exactly as we'd been telling him for months that the ONLY pressure rise was the pebble in a bucket effect which Ficht had been trying to flog for years & none of the proper engine people bought it till OMC fell for it. Ficht of course then brought OMC down & also ****ed another 1.3 US$ Bill against the retirees wall:-) When I owned three FICHTs, I had one that had some problems and it was with the EMM and not with the injector system. Bombardier replaced the EMM, wiring harness, updated the software, new stator (which is what failed) and new injectors at no cost to me - this was an OMC motor. Karen claims that this proves that there is a 33% failure rate. What it proved is that Karen is an idiot. No the head of OMC himself gave the world a 1 in 5 failure rate, which you & the dealers then tried to spin to something other than his own public admissions. I merely pointed out & do here again you have had a 33% failure rate on your own Fichts. Where am i wrong??? I used to have some respect for her opinons on other issues and often said so, but not any more. She's burned another bridge on the NG. Gee & I care?? if you are silly enough to keep throwing money at a failed technology that's OK indeed thanks I enjoy your admissions of failures. I've owned FICHTs and I have E-TECs now. The previous FICHTs that I had on my old Contender are solid as a rock and they are now approaching 1,400 hours. Ha ha ha 1400 hours:-) As one who knows what that means in terms of boating hours on a fast boat like that I guess you get off light because most here just choose to believe, please note me exception:-) Again just do you know your Ficht failure was caused by detonation, due to a design defect where the engine is deliberately run very lean at low to mid power & with very poor fuel atomisation due to very low injection pressure. Great thing about NGs Tom is you can have your say but so can I. K I do apologise because I didn't go checking before I answered. Hey even though its google now it's still deja vu!!! have a look at the pastes below I got those in a quick & dirty snoop & it's exactly the same as the early Ficht problems, starts off industry people reporting "failures" but for a while shell shocked brand loyal Tom type owners scared out of their wits stay quiet hoping they haven't been done over or in Tom's case done over again:-) I now wish to predict by the end of the next US season even the E-Tec owners will be howling as the Ficht owners eventually did & that will be the end of any value for a boat fitted with E-Tecs (or Ficht of course but you can't give a Ficht powered boat away for years) Here ya go, some pastes to have a giggle by, feel free to save them I have:-) I recently purchased a leftover 2004 90-HP E-TEC. At the time of the purchase the dealer assured me that the only difference between the model years was the color of the motor, so I saved a little and went blue rather than white. Now that my 2004 is sitting in the shop waiting for a new powerhead the dealer tells me that essentially I will be getting a 2005 powerhead since the reed block and manifolds are different, as well as a new chip to "update" the computer (which I thought was fully field updateable). I liked the motor when it ran, but I am curious about getting a straight answer from anyone that is truly in the loop about what has been changed since 2004. I will take this up further with my dealer in a few days once the motor is back together and let folks know (if anyone is interested). And for the curious about my blown motor, a rod bearing let loose (didn't toss the piston but it made a horrendous noise till it finally wouldn't run). Bombardier asked the dealer to ship it to them overnight so they could check it out immediately--even had a service rep get right over to the dealer. It appears they are at least interested in this situation. The motor was labeled as being built in January 2004, was purchased and installed by the dealer about September 1, 2004, and the dealer tells me it had 14 hours on it at the time of its demise. That seems high to me but.... I had been dead set on dropping a leftover v4 115 hp to replace my very rugged (but now tired) '86 70hp on my Montauk (for about $2k less than the etec cost me) when FU2 talked me into going the way I did. New unproven technology is great for early adopters who can afford to be field testers for the factory; this was a big break in my philosophy and I just want to know as much about these things as I can find out. PBM is dumping Evinrude 1:04 PM 11/19/2005 Just got the word when I picked up the boat form servicing. They claim too many ETEC problems and are dumping them despite being a dealer for 25 years. Called them "glorified FICHTs". They will be a Yamaha only dealer as of 2006. JP PBM is dumping Evinrude (lemaymiami) 6:27 PM 11/20/2005 Quote, originally posted by lemaymiami » Sushi, don't know who "PBM" is, but I do have a question. How could that fine individual tell you so much about Evinrude with his (or her) head so far up a dark place? ... Again, I cant know for sure what his motivation is but he specifically mentioned dusky a few times sayin that the "dump" the engines. i think they just dont want to service engines sold by another dealer. He also said they mounted 3 sets of ETECs and had to replace every powerhead. That sounded like BS to me, but I cant know for sure. JP e: PBM is dumping Evinrude (SushiSeeker) 9:35 AM 11/21/2005 In 2003 I bought a new 225 Ficht from PBMC ( w/ 7 year warrenty ) I have it serviced there only. Its been a great motor and love it Dan is the service manager and has always treated me fairly and stands by his work. I've asked them about the e-tecs and they did tell me all the problems that they were having and wouldn't recommend one to someone at this time. That they prefer the yamahas. I'm stickin with my Evinrude Ficht for now. Can't beat that 7 yr warrenty But hey he's the oil BS again!!! You remeber this one surely it's the "special" really expensive oil:-) Honestly this is too much to see it all again the second time round:-) exactly the same BS they gave us with Ficht??? Come on you NG old timers you must remember this la de de dah de dah:-) It's the same oil BS vinrude E Tec engines Had an interesting problem on a fishing trip last Sunday. (I have an E Tec 75 on my Warrior 165). The engine started fine and ticked over ok but after a few minutes at fast speed/virtually full throttle the low oil quantity light came on and the engine throttled back to idle (which it should do if its got low oil). However the oil level was full. I restarted it and it ran fine again for a few minutes before the same happened again. It did the same three times before running ok for the rest of the day. On flushing the engine with freshwater the following day-it happened yet again but at idle speed. Did some "googling" and found a number of similar comments from American websites-which seemed to indicate that this happens to these engines if the outside air temperature is below 40F. (It was below freezing on Sunday and Monday when I had the problems) Whilst I hope I dont have to use the engine very often in those temperatures-it was slightly frustrating to say the least. Any other owners of this engine type had this problem or any do any of you engine experts have any advice ? I have e mailed Evinrude/Bombardier in this country but so far no response from them. Unhappy maintenance free ????. Hi moray , ime running a 90hp evinrude etech and have not suffered this problem as yet but was making for home one day when the oil warning light come on due to oil level being low and as you say the revs dropped to tick over (bit surprised at 40 knots) i limped home and replaced the oil for the next trip. i havnt used it in sub zero temperatures yet but will post any problems that i get - cheers for the thread i thought these engines were infallible , just goes to show anything mechanical can and will develop a fault eventually - wilson. Hi Wilson 17 thanks for your reply. Since my original posting I have had this reply from Bombardier UK. Which may be usefull to other users. "It seems like you need the Extreme XD100 oil which rated down to minus 17 degrees centigrade. The label on the front of the oil bottle should have ‘Temperature EXTREME Formula’ written just under the Evinrude sign. The standard XD100 is perfectly OK for summer use or temperatures over 5C. On the earlier model engines there was also an upgrade the Engine Management Module to make it less sensitive to slow oil pulses in cold weather. Your dealer will be able to advise you if this is required." I have to say I wasnt aware of a special oil for low temperatures! I wonder just how much more it costs than the standard XD100-which is in itself very expensive-even though it uses very little compared to standard oil. I think I might just avoid fishing in those temperatures!! I did keep asking myself what am I doing here! Moray is offline Reply With Quote DFI is not a new technology just like 4 strokes are'nt. My VW Jetta has a Direct injected Turbo diesel in it and she runs flawlessly and so do the other TDI diesels(50+mpg:). Where I think DFI is flawed is in the 2 stroke arena. Reason being if my TDI VW runs lean on an injector due to a computer malfunction or clogged injector, etc, my engine will lose power, I will notice it, a check engine or injector light will flash and I will have it serviced, fixed, and back on the road with no issues(nice run on sentence huh). If the same thing happens on a 2 stroke at higher rpms, by the time the buzzer goes off and you yank the throttle back, you just scored the cylinders because lean condition means lack of oil. Lack of oil means BOOM! If a DFI motor runs the way it should, I BELIEVE it would be the best outboard made. Problem is life aint perfect. A slight mistake on an internal oiling engine is no biggie, on a 2 stroke it means BOOM! Sure DFI is more powerful, slightly lighter and almost as quiet and fuel efficient, but I am not convinced yet. Am I convinced on 4 strokes? So far so good from what I hear out there, don't know anyone who is not satisfied. EVERYONE I know with a DFI outboard(except Sal and another friend who only has 30 hours on his HPDI) has said he will not buy another one.....yet. If I was buying new(150hp+) it would be a HARD toss-up between a new FICHT(e-stroke whatever)and a 4 stroke. Warranty and price would move me one way or the other on the fence. I would not buy a conventional 2 stroke over 70hp just because they burn too much darn fuel. My 70 4 stroke burns 60+% less fuel than my 88spl at the same cruise speed. Top end is within 3mph so........ You are, indeed, correct in pointing out that something's amiss: Your buddy's Scout must have a problem. The F225 on the Grady White Tournament 225 gets about four MPG at 3,900 RPM's doing 29 MPH. It is good to know that you have had success with your engine (as reflected in your emphatic responses), but I shall not embrace DFI technology until the engines are consistently reliable. A few of my colleagues would be happy to discuss blown DFI two-stroke powerheads with you, one of whom had both of his 200 Optimax engines blow and one whose 225 Ficht blew. Another friend's HPDI fouls plugs so ofen that he carries a spare set of plugs with him. The body of evidence (both anecdotal and in the boating literature) suggesting faulty reliability in DFI outboards is growing. Turning a blind eye can be expensive. With the estimated cost of a 2003 F225 hovering around $14,500 (and considering the time value of money) where did you find a new 150HP outboard in 1991 for $2,500? PM Fear not K will be vindicated yet again................ seriously I feel a little bad this time because the dealers haven't abused me & called me names in a failed attempt to shut me up ...... yet, but hey I can make up for last time!!!:-) What hoot!!! |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
The FICHT isnt something I'd buy, but what about the Etec? It runs
extra lean at idel but seems to be holding up well ... Is that something one can buy without being worried? Take in mind my optimax has been holding up well too. It seems like they have the DFI technology under control? Matt |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
Thats a dent in the track record :(
I havent been able to find much about the Etec online .... Would you mind letting me know where to look for to gather more info? Of course the guy talking about the comparison with his TDI doesnt make any sense, the low temp issue doesnt look too serious but the Kabooms are concerning .. Are those little pains of a new product or a fundamental issue? IF the Etec works it looks like THE motor for me ... light, quiet, powerful, no maintenance ... What more can the boaters heart desire? (Except no kabooms of course ..) Matt |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
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E-Tec - Whats your experience?
In thses discussions one should consider the source and qualifications of
those contributing. AFAIK Karen (AKA The K of Oz) has never seen, touched, smelled, nor operated a FICHT or E-Tec engine. Her only KNOWLEDGE of the engines is what she has read and she seems unable to separate the wheat from the chaff of what she has read. I own a 1999 FICHT. I operate it year round in salt water and brackish water. It has served me for six and a half years with no issues whatsoever. As a PM exercise I've had the plugs replaced once. I generally operate at 3500 RPM but run at WOT for several minutes during each outing. I do not troll. I operate at idle for short periods when launching/retrieving or positioning the boat over a reef or hole. Last year I had some starting issues with my then five year old batteries. I replaced them with Optimas and normal starting resumed immediately. Should I have to replace my FICHT due to theft or accident the most likely replacement will be an E-Tec. I don't rule out a four stroke but weight is an important issue for me. In my boating area, central Gulf of Mexico coast, boats with FICHTs seem not to suffer any devaluation. IMO, the person with the most exrensive knowledge of FICHTs on this group is Bill Grannis. Google him and draw your own conclusions. OTOH, IMO the K of Oz is a notorious liar and fraud. YMMV. Butch "K. Smith" wrote in message ... wrote: Thats a dent in the track record :( I havent been able to find much about the Etec online .... Would you mind letting me know where to look for to gather more info? Of course the guy talking about the comparison with his TDI doesnt make any sense, the low temp issue doesnt look too serious but the Kabooms are concerning .. Are those little pains of a new product or a fundamental issue? IF the Etec works it looks like THE motor for me ... light, quiet, powerful, no maintenance ... What more can the boaters heart desire? (Except no kabooms of course ..) Matt The "Kabooms" are a risk with any engine run lean at power & the risk is aggravated if the injection pressure (therefore atomisation) is low. Even at it's worst I guess there were 4 in 5 Ficht owners happy?? well except their boats had become worthless:-) However a 1 in 5 risk is way too high given they cost as much as a medium sized car. A 1 in 500 risk is still too high for a consumer marketed OB engine. As for the E-Tecs, all I can say is that when the Fichts were dying it was exactly & I do mean exactly the same as right now; the reports were coming in yet scared owners wouldn't/couldn't believe it & brain dead liars like Krause even joined the dealers in fabricating stories to support the marketing of failing engines. Right up to about 2 weeks before OMC officially went under the dealers were still here spruiking their BS about them, attacking anyone who was trying to warn people of the dangers & essentially just telling lies. The reason the dealers were so excited about selling defective engines came out at the OMC bankruptcy hearings when it was finally revealed/confirmed that the dealers were getting over 30% markup (total of kickbacks & rebates) to sell sell sell known defective Ficht Of course like all cowardly dealer liars they just went away after OMC rolled over despite people all but begging for help or even the most basic of info in this NG, the very same scum that had induced people to buy their defective engines in the first place. They're not worth the risk & if anyone who has had 1 in 3 fail says otherwise ask yourself why they would be so silly as to take that risk again & at full tilt no less:-) More money than brains?? yes obviously, but at this rate pretty soon they'll have no money nor brains. K |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
So, only Tom is running an ETec? C'mon folks there must be more out
there ... |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
Butch Davis wrote:
In thses discussions one should consider the source and qualifications of those contributing. AFAIK Karen (AKA The K of Oz) has never seen, touched, smelled, nor operated a FICHT or E-Tec engine. Her only KNOWLEDGE of the engines is what she has read and she seems unable to separate the wheat from the chaff of what she has read. I own a 1999 FICHT. I operate it year round in salt water and brackish water. It has served me for six and a half years with no issues whatsoever. As a PM exercise I've had the plugs replaced once. I generally operate at 3500 RPM but run at WOT for several minutes during each outing. I do not troll. I operate at idle for short periods when launching/retrieving or positioning the boat over a reef or hole. Last year I had some starting issues with my then five year old batteries. I replaced them with Optimas and normal starting resumed immediately. Should I have to replace my FICHT due to theft or accident the most likely replacement will be an E-Tec. I don't rule out a four stroke but weight is an important issue for me. In my boating area, central Gulf of Mexico coast, boats with FICHTs seem not to suffer any devaluation. IMO, the person with the most exrensive knowledge of FICHTs on this group is Bill Grannis. Google him and draw your own conclusions. OTOH, IMO the K of Oz is a notorious liar and fraud. YMMV. Butch Thanks for that Butch, unfortunately your mate Bill ran away with all the other Ficht spriukers when OMC fell over under the weight of failed Fichts. It pretty much beggars belief how you can even still pretend they're good engines, but if it's helps your pride go for it. As for the liar's comments about prop pitch it's just more him wearing his lack of education like a crown, a pitch box is the normal way to measure prop pitch & what I decribed was a simple way to do it your self if you didn't want to go to the trouble of building one. Seeing we cast our own props I'd suggest I'm well able to comment on how the pitch is determined. K "K. Smith" wrote in message ... wrote: Thats a dent in the track record :( I havent been able to find much about the Etec online .... Would you mind letting me know where to look for to gather more info? Of course the guy talking about the comparison with his TDI doesnt make any sense, the low temp issue doesnt look too serious but the Kabooms are concerning .. Are those little pains of a new product or a fundamental issue? IF the Etec works it looks like THE motor for me ... light, quiet, powerful, no maintenance ... What more can the boaters heart desire? (Except no kabooms of course ..) Matt The "Kabooms" are a risk with any engine run lean at power & the risk is aggravated if the injection pressure (therefore atomisation) is low. Even at it's worst I guess there were 4 in 5 Ficht owners happy?? well except their boats had become worthless:-) However a 1 in 5 risk is way too high given they cost as much as a medium sized car. A 1 in 500 risk is still too high for a consumer marketed OB engine. As for the E-Tecs, all I can say is that when the Fichts were dying it was exactly & I do mean exactly the same as right now; the reports were coming in yet scared owners wouldn't/couldn't believe it & brain dead liars like Krause even joined the dealers in fabricating stories to support the marketing of failing engines. Right up to about 2 weeks before OMC officially went under the dealers were still here spruiking their BS about them, attacking anyone who was trying to warn people of the dangers & essentially just telling lies. The reason the dealers were so excited about selling defective engines came out at the OMC bankruptcy hearings when it was finally revealed/confirmed that the dealers were getting over 30% markup (total of kickbacks & rebates) to sell sell sell known defective Ficht Of course like all cowardly dealer liars they just went away after OMC rolled over despite people all but begging for help or even the most basic of info in this NG, the very same scum that had induced people to buy their defective engines in the first place. They're not worth the risk & if anyone who has had 1 in 3 fail says otherwise ask yourself why they would be so silly as to take that risk again & at full tilt no less:-) More money than brains?? yes obviously, but at this rate pretty soon they'll have no money nor brains. K |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... K The only thing you cast is demons. Harry, This lack the creativity and wit of yesterday's insult to the gang of 7. I thought you might be back to your old self. I guess not. |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
All Folks!
Please lets not get carried away here .... I am interested in the ETec and if I buy a 150 HP Etec, which I beleive will be released in spring (Fieldtest 'r us) how big is the risk it will Kaboom? Lets also not discuss FICHT. One of those wont get near me ... ETec is quiet different though ... Karen does have a point! So lets talk Etec :) Matt |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
wrote in message oups.com... All Folks! Please lets not get carried away here .... I am interested in the ETec and if I buy a 150 HP Etec, which I beleive will be released in spring (Fieldtest 'r us) how big is the risk it will Kaboom? This website has a lot of factual information on E-TEC and is more technical than the stuff on www.evinrude.com http://www.e-tecinfonet.org/ The E-TECs are now in their 3rd year of production and doing very well. There is no reason to assume that the 150 series would be a problem. Bill Grannis service manager |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
Matt....I was just searching thru google,and came upon this thread....I know
2 people,friends,who have been running e-tecs......I have heard very good things about them.....So,I repowered this past summer(05),with a pair of e-tec 250's(On a 2950 Proline)......I have about 100 hrs on them,in all types of different running (trolling,cruising etc.)I love these engines....they are smooth,and extremely quiet.....the only problem,was the plugs fouled when it got cold(NE region,fall fishing)...in the colder weather,the xd100 oil should be used .....in the manual it says it should be set up for that oil in this region....I would highly recommend them....also ,my fuel consumption has increased dramatically....(95 Ocean Runners,carbs)...I burn about 30%,less fuel,....and that is when I am running it pretty to my floscan,.my mileage would be better if I backed off a little........They have allot of torque.....I was not a believer at first,and I guess time will really tell.......if anyone needs any info,or any questions,please e-mail me.......jeff wrote in message ups.com... So, only Tom is running an ETec? C'mon folks there must be more out there ... |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
wrote in message ... So,I repowered this past summer(05),with a pair of e-tec 250's(On a 2950 Proline)......I have about 100 hrs on them,in all types of different running (trolling,cruising etc.)I love these engines....they are smooth,and extremely quiet.....the only problem,was the plugs fouled when it got cold(NE region,fall fishing It sounds like the thermostats are fouled or "out of spec" by not allowing the motor to warm up to its designed operating temperature. There is also a pressure relief valve that could be leaking or bypassing water internally that will also give the same symptoms. See your authorized dealer, there is a service bulletin that describes how to check the cooling system to make sure the motor is operating correctly. Bill Grannis service manager |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shortwave Sportfishing" Newsgroups: rec.boats Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 6:47 PM Subject: E-Tec - Whats your experience? while you are here bill and in your experience, have you run into fouling problems with using other than xd100. there are some rumors running around up here that you have to run xd100 or the plugs will foul. I haven't seen any plug fouling with the E-TECs using XD-100 synthetic, XD-50 semi-synthetic, or ordinary TC-W3 oils. E-TECs are now in their 3rd year of production and doing well. The only thing we've seen is when sea-grass or shell gets wedged into a thermostat or pressure relief valve and makes the motor run cool. Usually there is an increase in fuel consumption, but still better than an EFI or carbureted motor, or a "stutter" on acceleration. You may find the gap increased on the plugs also. Once the plug is regapped and the motor warms up properly, its like new again. This is seen usually on flats boats that run in the shallows a lot, or larger boats that have run aground a few times. Any electronically controlled engine, outboard, car motor, etc., is designed to run correctly within a narrow range of temperatures, which is controlled by the thermostat. Any operation outside the specs will increase emissions, fuel consumption, and will affect drivability. The high hour use engines, such as commercial fishermen, crabbers, law enforcement, tow boats, or fishing guides are getting 300 hours or even a bit longer plug life as Evinrude has advertised. Bill Grannis service manager |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
wrote:
Matt....I was just searching thru google,and came upon this thread....I know 2 people,friends,who have been running e-tecs......I have heard very good things about them.....So,I repowered this past summer(05),with a pair of e-tec 250's(On a 2950 Proline)......I have about 100 hrs on them,in all types of different running (trolling,cruising etc.)I love these engines....they are smooth,and extremely quiet.....the only problem,was the plugs fouled when it got cold(NE region,fall fishing)...in the colder weather,the xd100 oil should be used .....in the manual it says it should be set up for that oil in this region....I would highly recommend them....also ,my fuel consumption has increased dramatically....(95 Ocean Runners,carbs)...I burn about 30%,less fuel,....and that is when I am running it pretty to my floscan,.my mileage would be better if I backed off a little........They have allot of torque.....I was not a believer at first,and I guess time will really tell.......if anyone needs any info,or any questions,please e-mail me.......jeff wrote in message ups.com... So, only Tom is running an ETec? C'mon folks there must be more out there ... Thanks for your comments Jeff & clearly really happy yours are still going well. Although your post seems like a bit of a sales pitch for these things I'll treat it as real & up front. As with Ficht remember 4 out of 5 didn't fail. Well OK with Tom it's 2 outta 3 didn't:-) I guess it's a statement of how risky these things are that after you paid lots more than the price of a new medium sized car (gee which includes seats, auto trans, wheels, tyres, crash tests, no pollution damn even A/C & a radio!!) you seem pleased if not shocked they "haven't" failed????? Just on the advice from Bill, be a little careful he is "involved" indeed was spruiking Fichts right up to the end & even claimed as a big Florida dealer he'd never even seen a blown Ficht:-) I suppose his "in production 3 yrs" might look right but you probably know that there were not many in use till your last season so all we really have is that one part season. Of course he ran away with all the other dealers when owners were left swinging after Ficht, wouldn't even show his head in the NG, no actual help at all. As for the specific thermostat thing be very careful already E-Tecs have blamed failures on "overheating" along with the usual this or that & who knows????? guess it might be right; however if you've read the threads you'll know our submission is that it's excessive heat buildup due to lean poorly atomised fueling that is the seed which leads to detonation when normal fuel mixture mode is resumed. You might find they've deliberately lowered the thermo temp to try & get an acceptable number through???? Tom is another happy beaming customer just like you, terrified these will fail & again trash the value of the boat?? even if he had to kick another couple of cars worth for 2 more to get his failure rate back to the 1 in 5:-). Although I outright call him on his 500hrs claim, since he told this NG he finally got them, not because of huge demand but ........ gee I wonder why ????? well you get the idea:-), but hey if Krause can get away with it why not??:-) You'll find Tom thinks things work because he "believes" they will:-) true that's his posted hysterical mystical technical explanation!!! Sorry giggling he-) Anyway again very happy yours are OK & after all you paid for a simple 2 stroke with an angle drive so they should be!! I hope they stay that way, but I'm as skeptical as you obviously are & would hate to see you stuck like your brother Robinson was (just for the record; did he have E-tecs??). K |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
----- Original Message ----- From: "K. Smith" Newsgroups: rec.boats Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 2:08 AM As with Ficht remember 4 out of 5 didn't fail. Well OK with Tom it's 2 outta 3 didn't:-) Ah, Karen is back and sounds like she hasn't taken her medication again. You are wrong on your quote about FICHTS. It was David Jones, the then president of OMC who stated in 1998 that 1 in 5 FICHTs with a 25" shaft (150-175hp) had major problems. That was during the news conference when they announced the factory teams that went around the country to fix dealer's and customer's engines with the new cylinder heads and updated software. Just on the advice from Bill, be a little careful he is "involved" indeed was spruiking Fichts right up to the end & even claimed as a big Florida dealer he'd never even seen a blown Ficht:-). Oh, Karen, you are making things up again. Years back I told you that none of my customers had blown 150 or 175 FICHTs, but I had seen some brought to me that were purchased at other dealers. Before boat delivery, we run each rig, check things out, and make sure it is propped correctly. Oh yes, I work for a mid-sized family owned dealer as I told you before. Of course he ran away with all the other dealers when owners were left swinging after Ficht, wouldn't even show his head in the NG, no actual help at all. Damn, at least you are consistant and lie and make up things all the time, instead of just once in a while. I've been in this newsgroup for more years than I remember and it was long before you came along. I'm probably the only one in the marine industry who has been answering service questions and correcting misinformation for the folks looking for help here at rec.boats for any length of time. As for the specific thermostat thing be very careful already E-Tecs have blamed failures on "overheating" along with the usual this or that & who knows????? Now you are making things up again. Can you back up your statement with any facts, dates, serial numbers, news accounts? Third and fourth hand stories from unsubstantiated sources don't count. By the way, my granddaughter will be visiting your fine country this summer on an educational field trip and she is looking forward to it. It's for almost 3 weeks and they travel to different parts of the continent to interact with the different cultures, and to understand the history of the areas. Do you have any tips or suggestions that I can pass on to her? Thanks. Bill Grannis service manager |
E-Tec - Whats your experience?
Billgran wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "K. Smith" Newsgroups: rec.boats Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 2:08 AM As with Ficht remember 4 out of 5 didn't fail. Well OK with Tom it's 2 outta 3 didn't:-) Ah, Karen is back and sounds like she hasn't taken her medication again. You are wrong on your quote about FICHTS. It was David Jones, the then president of OMC who stated in 1998 that 1 in 5 FICHTs with a 25" shaft (150-175hp) had major problems. That was during the news conference when they announced the factory teams that went around the country to fix dealer's and customer's engines with the new cylinder heads and updated software. Bill I accept you have to keep trying to flog this stuff but now you seek to wiggle out of the 1 in 5 admission on the basis it only happened to some of your customers????? I guess it's a market ploy but gee brave probably understates it. 1 in 5 is 1 in 5 on engines that cost more than a new car & you dealers were clipping aggregate 30% on them; OK I guess spin it anyway you want. Just on the advice from Bill, be a little careful he is "involved" indeed was spruiking Fichts right up to the end & even claimed as a big Florida dealer he'd never even seen a blown Ficht:-). Oh, Karen, you are making things up again. Years back I told you that none of my customers had blown 150 or 175 FICHTs, but I had seen some brought to me that were purchased at other dealers. Sorry Bill you claimed you'd never even seen a blown Ficht when upon specific instructions I had asked you to describe the engine damage of the blown powerheads, rather than answer, it appears you chose the dealers remedy ....................... I'd suggest because you know if you'd answered truthfully, then you'd have given a classic description of massive detonation damage?? Something you'd be well familiar with having seen lots of individual cyls over the years wrecked by a carb "going lean at power". Before boat delivery, we run each rig, check things out, and make sure it is propped correctly. Oh yes, I work for a mid-sized family owned dealer as I told you before. Bill because of the restricted marketing area system managed & enforced by the rebates, assists etc etc your dealership is as the others & in the early days you were only too happy to use your huge numbers as reasons my warnings on Ficht should be ignored, now you say otherwise?? Well gee isn't that a surprise from a dealer?:-) Of course he ran away with all the other dealers when owners were left swinging after Ficht, wouldn't even show his head in the NG, no actual help at all. Damn, at least you are consistant and lie and make up things all the time, instead of just once in a while. I've been in this newsgroup for more years than I remember and it was long before you came along. I'm probably the only one in the marine industry who has been answering service questions and correcting misinformation for the folks looking for help here at rec.boats for any length of time. & when under the weight of failed Fichts OMC went bankrupt you ran away!!! In Jan 2001 you made 3 posts to rec.boats one just after it hit the fan; on 3/1/01 you confirmed the 1 in 5 rumour as it was here??? on 17/1/01 you posted a short dealer missive about through the prop exhaust history, you must have been reading all the owners' pleas for help, because you had the obligatory go at me for continuing to say what I'd been saying for 3 yrs about dealers & Ficht. on 27/1/01 you posted an answer about a rev limiter but didn't even comment on the real issue .............. another Ficht in it's dying throws:-) After that you made the pimpernel look like a local as far as helping those sucked into buying Ficht, till near end of Feb 2001. It's to your credit you archive your posts as I do also, those of us who want some credibility must archive, save we be judged like the x-no-archivers who are in the main those that don't want to be held accountable for their lies, so I credit you with at least giving me the tools to confirm my claim, which was a tad exaggerated I concede:-) You were like all the other dealers nowhere to be seen or read:-)!!! Were you told to shutup because the dealers were suing the administrator for the unpaid 30% rebates you'd been collecting to keep pushing Ficht?? People who you'd actually tricked into buying a faulty engine were here begging for some answers, what about their warranties what about parts what about the chances their engine will fail & you just ran away like the other 2 OMC dealers, Cowards the lot of you & now you say I lie about it??? As for the specific thermostat thing be very careful already E-Tecs have blamed failures on "overheating" along with the usual this or that & who knows????? Now you are making things up again. Can you back up your statement with any facts, dates, serial numbers, news accounts? Third and fourth hand stories from unsubstantiated sources don't count. Bill you know about this as much as anyone are you now denying it, yes or no??? Your usual demands for serial numbers are just a part of the dealers mantra to stop people getting to the truth???? There were E-Tec failures "due to overheating" & of course the claim is it was a manufacturing snafu, new holes drilled & it's all fixed now:-) This is ground hog day for Ficht, even down to your total BS. By the way, my granddaughter will be visiting your fine country this summer on an educational field trip and she is looking forward to it. It's for almost 3 weeks and they travel to different parts of the continent to interact with the different cultures, and to understand the history of the areas. Do you have any tips or suggestions that I can pass on to her? Thanks. Assuming from Florida & a boatie, try to get out to the barrier reef it's worth the trouble, there are numerous places she can but I'd suggest from the Whitsundays because there the reef is well offshore (guessing 35-40 miles) & you get some measure of the reef's vastness. We will of course re-run our Ficht arguments & counter claims over E-Tec as we did back when Bill but when the latest impact injector owner gives up & abandons those silly enough to have paid money for these things; try to hang around this time & at least answer the questions to your ability. K Bill Grannis service manager billgran Jan 17 2001, 9:38 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.boats From: billgran - Find messages by this author Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 05:37:43 -0800 Local: Thurs, Jan 18 2001 12:37 am Subject: What do WE think happened to OMC and boating in general? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse "K. Smith" wrote: .... through the prop exhaust Merc has it but OMC won't pay royalties so doesn't till years after, their consumers suffered, seems same rationale for going their own way with Ficht.. Hey Karen, OMC had the patent on the thru hub exhaust. Mercury lost out in long drawn out court battle back in '67 and had to pay OMC royalties. The '68 3cyl. Johnson and Evinrudes even had a decal on the midsection with the patent number, just to **** off Merc. I think that was Charlie Srang's idea. You were really ranting and raving in your last posts. Did you put too much sugar on your Corn Flakes this morning? Bill Grannis service manager billgran Jan 27 2001, 3:56 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.boats From: billgran - Find messages by this author Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 04:56:12 GMT Local: Sat, Jan 27 2001 3:56 pm Subject: Where did all the FICHT experts go in this NG? Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse peteman wrote: I could really use some insight here. I've watched for months as certain apparently knowledgeable people on this NG argue the pros and cons of FICHT technology. Highly technical critiques of design plans and whatnot. I post a specific question and everyone clams up. What gives.....do you prefer arguing to helping? Or do you just not really know what you're talking about? It's hard to tell in cyberspace. I've restrained myself from picking up my boat cuz I'm trying to build a bit of a knowledge base regarding the presence of a REV LIMITER in the ECU that could have been adjusted to cut out at 5500. Your rev limiter is NOT adjustable and I doubt that is your problem. First the basics have to be checked, motor installation, height, etc. The motor has to be set up correctly, using a laptop, and the linkage adjusted per the manual. Propping should be done using a laptop, as the accuracy is important. OMC tachs are very close, but if you have an aftermarket brand, then who know? How do they know the rev limiter is kicking in? You would have to use a timing lite and the laptop to determine if the cylinders are cutting out, very unlikely. What is the model number of the motor, what service and updates have been done, and what boat do you have? Bill Grannis service manager billgran Jan 3 2001, 12:22 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.boats From: billgran - Find messages by this author Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 20:22:16 -0800 Local: Wed, Jan 3 2001 3:22 pm Subject: OMC Final Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse "K. Smith" wrote: No you're correct but that's because OMC didn't/wouldn't tell anyone, indeed they tried to hide the truth, the only reliable info we got was from a good inside source & despite his later regrets about giving it to us the figure was 1 in 5, if there are better official figures let them give them to us, till then it's 1 in 5, pathetic. Gee you're the one who asked what the figures were, now you don't like the answer. Karen, I was the one who gave you the 1 in 5 figure that applied to the 1998 150-175 FICHT problems, not the V4's or the 3.0 and 3.3L V6's. Not only am I NOT an inside source but I do NOT regret it. It is a direct quote from David Jones, former CEO of OMC, at a news conference with the boating media about the '98 FICHT problems. He also stated with consulting help from Ricardo, Queens University, McLaren, Purdue (my alma mater), and Sagem, they found the problems and redesigned the product. This news and quote was published in almost every American Boating mag, talked about on the Ship Shape TV show, and was even written about in the Australian boating magazines. Why do you insist it was "secret" and never disclosed? Bill Grannis service manager K. Smith Jan 3 2001, 2:14 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.boats From: "K. Smith" - Find messages by this author Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 14:15:40 +1100 Local: Wed, Jan 3 2001 2:15 pm Subject: OMC Final Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - billgran wrote: "K. Smith" wrote: No you're correct but that's because OMC didn't/wouldn't tell anyone, indeed they tried to hide the truth, the only reliable info we got was from a good inside source & despite his later regrets about giving it to us the figure was 1 in 5, if there are better official figures let them give them to us, till then it's 1 in 5, pathetic. Gee you're the one who asked what the figures were, now you don't like the answer. Karen, I was the one who gave you the 1 in 5 figure that applied to the 1998 150-175 FICHT problems, not the V4's or the 3.0 and 3.3L V6's. Not only am I NOT an inside source but I do NOT regret it. It is a direct quote from David Jones, former CEO of OMC, at a news conference with the boating media about the '98 FICHT problems. He also stated with consulting help from Ricardo, Queens University, McLaren, Purdue (my alma mater), and Sagem, they found the problems and redesigned the product. This news and quote was published in almost every American Boating mag, talked about on the Ship Shape TV show, and was even written about in the Australian boating magazines. Why do you insist it was "secret" and never disclosed? Well I wont eat my tea tonight I'll be full up on crow, so I need to apologise to you also now, sorry. So the facts you're confirming then Bill are; (i) that the 1 in 5 figure is very accurate & comes publicly from the very top of OMC BUT only applied to the 98 model Ficht 150 &175 HP (ii) that you nor OMC have "published" any failure rates on any Fichts since they claimed they were "fixed" from the 1 in 5 failure base. Does that accurately state the facts on the release of Ficht failures as far as OMC or you are concerned???? if so then it seems they were wrong when they said Ficht was all fixed because clearly just reading this group & the fishing boards discloses that it's not & not just certain HPs or models all an OMC engine needs to be suspect of powerhead failure is a Ficht decal. Harry should be happy now because he knows OMC were at 1 in 5 Fichts failing so if there had been even a modest improvement I guess OMC or their dealers would have been spruiking it from the rafters, not exactly truthfully of course but probably couched in terms like "twice as reliable" so what 1 in 10 still not even likely to be acceptable, 4 times as reliable.......... I'm suspecting it probably even got worse than the 1 in 5 because the same engines they thought they'd "fixed" with the silent recalls as Karl calls them, then went on to fail again & in some cases a third time. I accept you personally say you think Ficht is good but that's not what the dealers are saying now, indeed there's a growing panic. Good thing you've got Yamaha. Thanks again K - Hide quoted text - |
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