On 4 Dec 2005 08:40:24 -0800, wrote:



Of course. It's something that everybody experiences. Heck, take this
NG for example......

I try not to put down a person's religious beliefs or customs. Any
reason you didn't respond to this?

John H. wrote:
On 3 Dec 2005 09:28:48 -0800, wrote:


*JimH* wrote:
Damn it, we got it in the house and it looks just like a Christmas tree.

I always laugh my arse off at the very notion of a "Christmas tree."

Glad the Christmas season brings you some joy.

I've even seen "Christmas Trees" set up in churches. Wow. Talk about
confused........

We use our tree as a place to put gifts for the needy. No confusion at
all. Prior to Christmas day, the gifts are distributed to children who
otherwise may not have any.

Do you find this offensive?

Not in the least. You make offerings to the tree, the tree blesses the
offerings (gifts), and then the tree gives them back so you can enjoy
them or give them to others. Very old tradition.


No offerings are made to a tree. That was an assinine comment, one
that I wouldn't have expected from you.

You do the same thing when you pass the plate on a Sunday morning. You
place offerings on the altar, but they don't just disappear to be spent
in Heaven- they are prayed over, blessed, etc and then put to use in
the very earthly pursuit of paying the light bill and the minister's
salary.

And providing food and lodging for the poor, along with other works.


The decorated tree in your living room is a "pagan" symbol of the first
order. The ancient Celts and the Germanic tribes had a solstice
tradition where a small tree would be brought into the home and
showered with offerings (tinsel, jewelry, "ornaments") to honor the
Spirit of the Forest. The tree serves as a sort of altar.

There are other traditions also, Chuck. And, is there something
*wrong* with honoring a deity which cares for the forests?

Not at all. Are you comfortable "crowning" a tree? (with a special top
ornament)?

I am very comfortable with putting a decoration on the top of the
tree. You may call it 'crowning', but it's not a term I've ever heard.

As one of my friends, (a devout Christian but not a member of a
mainstream sect), points out, there is nothing in the Bible that
commands anybody to celebrate Christmas or even Easter. In fact, two of
the four New Testament gospels don't even mention The Natvity, and you
would think that hosts of angels descending from heaven wouldn't be
such a trivial detail that it was accidentally overlooked.


Have you read somewhere that all of the gospels in the New Testament
must say exactly the same thing?


No, but if they disagree it becomes a bit more difficult to accept
every single sentence in the Bible as the literal word of God, doesn't
it?

Do they disagree about the birth of Christ? I thought you said that
the Nativity wasn't mentioned. None of the good news in Iraq is
mentioned in the major media, but that doesn't mean it's not
happening.


The Virgin Birth story was added about 150-200 AD. Specifically to
allow Christianity to compete with the worship of Mithras. Funny thing,
at least to me, is that the most important story in the New Testament
has to be the Resurrection. (All four gospels mention that, right?). I
would think that the Easter story is diminished in importance if Jesus
were a supernatural being. IOW, "A supernatural being has the power to
rise from the dead." Now, put forth the theory that a loving divinity
makes it possible for common, garden-variety mortals to be saved,
through faith, from death and achieve some sort of "eternal life" and
you've actually got a bigger miracle to celebrate. Again, that's just
my opinion.


You're entitled to your opinion, and, as you say, that's just your
opinion.

Is there a religious passage somewhere that says, "Go thou, chop down
a tree, bring it into your home, and make offereings unto it?" Nah,
probably not. In fact, I sort of recall that Jehovah was might upset
when some of his followers were venerating a golden calf.
It ain't that far from a calf to a tree.

Probably no passage saying same.

So what? There is no passage saying, "Buy thyself a boat and cruise
Puget Sound," You do it because you enjoy it. People put Christmas
trees in their homes because they enjoy them. For many, decorating the
tree is a family get-together time that is most enjoyable.


And I have no problem with people putting up a tree. When I go boating,
I don't pretend it's a religious observance. Neither should people
putting up a tree, unless they practice a religion that venerates
trees.

Well gee! Thanks for not having a problem with my Christmas tree. The
putting up of the tree is *part* of our observance of Christmas. I'm
pretending nothing.

And, the tree provides a centerpiece for the electric train going
round and round its base.


I guess the above met with your approval? No derogatory comments?

Oh, and take a good close look at that holly and mistletoe while you're
at it. :-)

Holly provides a decorative touch on the fireplace mantel. Intermixed
with candles, lights, and other decorations it adds to the Christmas
cheer.

This was OK also?


Can anybody who considers Christmas a Christian and religious holiday
offer a good explanation for the inculsion of a venerated tree? I'd be
fascinated to see it attempted.

http://www.christmasarchives.com/trees.html

...and because we like them. They provide a nice gathering spot for
family and friends and for the opening of gifts on Christmas morning.

Nothing wrong here either?


It's a shame you miss out on one of the great pleasures of life -
watching the grandchildren opening their presents by the Christmas
tree.

Have you ever watched your grandkids opening presents by the Christmas
tree, Chuck?

If not, you've missed out on a lot of joy.




--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you the best as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

John H. wrote:
On 4 Dec 2005 08:40:24 -0800, wrote:



Of course. It's something that everybody experiences. Heck, take this
NG for example......

I try not to put down a person's religious beliefs or customs. Any
reason you didn't respond to this?


It was primarily an attempt to move the discussion from a fact and
opinion based perspective to personal insult mode. Best to avoid those.
When two people start
posting "you're an asshole" back and forth in a NG- they're usually
both right.

On 5 Dec 2005 07:06:03 -0800, wrote:


John H. wrote:
On 4 Dec 2005 08:40:24 -0800, wrote:



Of course. It's something that everybody experiences. Heck, take this
NG for example......

I try not to put down a person's religious beliefs or customs. Any
reason you didn't respond to this?


It was primarily an attempt to move the discussion from a fact and
opinion based perspective to personal insult mode. Best to avoid those.
When two people start
posting "you're an asshole" back and forth in a NG- they're usually
both right.

Ah, I see. Well Chuck, I'm not Harry. You need not fear my calling you names, even if you should
make fun of my religious beliefs.



--
John H

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Wishing you peace, fellowship, and good humor as we celebrate the birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ on the Christmas Holy Day.