"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
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"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
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"NOYB" wrote in message
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"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
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"NOYB" wrote in message
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"thunder" wrote in message
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On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:55:04 +0000, NOYB wrote:


I guess he got spanked by Uncle Ted, eh?

Maybe, but the debate has been engaged. You are also overlooking
something. The neo-con plan to have Iraq as a permanent base for
further
aggressions, is looking more, and more, unlikely. So sorry, but
Syria and
Iran are not on today's agenda.

No it's not. The scope and size of any withdrawal has never been
announced by anyone holding the authority to decide such things.



I see in the news today that the Iraqi army is being accused of abuses
which are reminiscent of Saddam's regime. If this continues, it could
lead to a parallel conflict which your president was too stupid to
predict.

Any abuses by the current regime towards fellow Iraqis is irrelevant to
the ultimate plan of installing a US-friendly government that is
willing to allow US troops to establish bases around the perimeter of
Iraq's borders.

Huh? According to your president and his sitters, we already installed a
US-friendly government.


No kidding. The plan is halfway complete. And you guys say that we're
making no progress in Iraq. ;-)



That would make us even more unwelcome than before. The decision to
leave may not be a nice, neat one made in a conference room.

I don't think we'll ever leave.



Well, just make sure your children have no excuse to avoid being shot
at. You wanted this war. Put your money where your mouth is.

Troops stationed in fortified bases around the perimeter of Iraq would be
no more at risk than the Marines at Guantanamo...or the forces that were
stationed in Europe during the Cold War.

Oh....OK. You think this war's gonna cool off soon.

So does Joe Lieberman, who just got back from Iraq:


`We Do Have A Plan'

Returning From Iraq, Lieberman Praises U.S. Strategy, Urges Bush To Tout
Successes

By DAVID LIGHTMAN
Washington Bureau Chief

November 29 2005

WASHINGTON -- Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman, just back from Iraq, wants President
Bush to give the American people details about the progress being made in
that country - from military triumphs to the proliferation of cellphones and
satellite dishes.

Bush is scheduled to give the nation a progress report on Iraq Wednesday,
his first such address since Congress erupted two weeks ago in bitter debate
over the war.

Supporters and critics alike have been urging the president to outline his
strategy for some time.

Critics sense a mission adrift. Sen. Christopher J. Dodd, D-Conn., visited
Iraq last month, and came away saying "we need a major course correction" in
American policy - notably "we need to let Iraqis know we're not there
forever."

But Lieberman, D-Conn., who spent Wednesday and Thursday in Iraq, saw strong
evidence that a workable American plan is in place.

"We do have a strategy," he said. "We do have a plan. I saw a strategy
that's being implemented."

Lieberman, who is one of Bush's strongest war supporters in the Senate,
cited the remarks of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who last month
told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee the strategy in Iraq was to
"clear, hold and build: to clear areas from insurgent control, to hold them
securely and to build durable, national Iraqi institutions."

Lieberman spent his time in Iraq, his fourth trip there in 17 months,
conferring with American officials and Iraqi leaders, including Prime
Minister Ibrahim Jaafari, the country's interior and defense ministers, and
senior members of the Supreme Council. He also talked with about 50
Connecticut troops.

Other war backers shared the belief that the strategy would work. Rep.
Christopher Shays, R-4th District, said he was "pretty optimistic" after his
10th trip to Iraq last month.

"The [Iraqi] troops are moving forward in a very positive way," Shays
reported.

Lieberman and others acknowledge that the White House has a huge public
relations task convincing the American people that the United States has a
clear, winnable mission.

The White House has not released details of the speech Bush is scheduled to
deliver at the U.S. Naval Academy Wednesday, but the president's supporters
have been urging him to provide specifics about his plans.

John W. Warner, R-Va., the Senate Armed Services Committee chairman, Sunday
told NBC's "Meet the Press" that Bush should consider the kind of "fireside
chat" Franklin D. Roosevelt used during his presidency.

"It would bring him closer to the people," Warner said, "[and] dispel some
of the concern that, understandably, our people have about the loss of life
and limb, the enormous cost of this war to the American public."

One way to calm lawmakers and the public, backers said, is to stress the
good news.

"The Iraqi Security Forces are fighting hard. They're fighting well. They
are not cracking under pressure, as you see in some armies, and they are
making a tremendous contribution," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director,
plans and strategy, U.S. Army Central Command, told a Heritage Foundation
forum Monday.

Such descriptions, though, are unlikely to satisfy war critics.

Rep. Rosa L. DeLauro, D-3rd District, said she wanted "a new strategy for
Iraq, one that both safely brings our troops home and brings stability and
security to the country and throughout the region."

She cited Democratic ideas, including specific exit strategies and
timetables, and expressed hope Bush "will use his speech Wednesday to begin
this discussion with the American people."

Dodd, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, listed a series of
steps he would like the United States to take, including using Arab League
nations to cool tensions between rival Iraqi factions, getting the United
Nations and NATO more involved and possibly moving "major blocs" of American
troops out of the country after the Dec. 15 national elections.

The critics were not optimistic the White House would announce any troop
pullbacks anytime soon.

"This administration is in a state of denial, and is very much in a
hunker-down mode," added Ted Galen Carpenter, vice president for foreign
policy and defense studies at Washington's Cato Institute.

He said of Bush and Lieberman, "You can admire their consistency, but I
don't think there's anything more tragic than someone who's loyal to a
flawed cause."

Bush, Lieberman and other war backers have become increasingly isolated
politically.

A Nov. 11-13 Gallup poll found that 63 percent of those surveyed disapproved
of Bush's handling of the war, and 60 percent thought it was not worth going
to war.

Lieberman, a consistent supporter of action against Iraq since the Gulf War
in 1991, was one of five Senate Democrats to oppose a Democratic-led bid on
Nov. 15 to demand that Bush set timetables for troop pullouts.

And though 53 Republicans joined Lieberman to defeat that measure, Bush got
another message that day as 79 senators told Bush "the administration needs
to explain to Congress and the American people its strategy for the
successful completion of the mission in Iraq."

Two days later, Rep. John P. Murtha, D-Pa., considered one of the Pentagon's
most ardent Democratic friends, went public with his misgivings about the
war and said troops should leave Iraq almost immediately.

Lieberman said he understands the mood, but is adamant that the war is a
just cause.

The White House is showing some hints of strain: Saturday, the
administration quickly rebutted criticisms by Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr.,
D-Del., a one-time war backer who recently has been vocal in calling for a
withdrawal timetable.

The White House sent reporters a three-page memo addressing Biden's points
and extensively quoting Bush's Nov. 14 speech at Elmendorf Air Force Base in
Anchorage.

In that address, Bush reiterated his strategy: "As the Iraqis stand up, we
will stand down. And when our commanders on the ground tell me that the
Iraqi forces can defend their freedom, our troops will come home with the
honor they have earned."

Bush is not expected to set any precise timetables for withdrawal in his
Wednesday address, even though supporters have suggested reducing U.S.
involvement next year.

"If all goes well, we could be in a position to draw down a significant
number of forces by the end of 2006, the beginning of 2007," Lieberman said.

The senator said he hopes Bush will emphasize details of progress Wednesday.

"There are more cars on the street and an amazing number of satellite dishes
on rooftops," the senator said, "and what seems like millions of cellphones.

"Most exciting is the political stuff. ... There is a campaign going on
there for the Dec. 15 National Assembly elections and there are a lot of
independent television stations and newspapers covering it."

Lieberman acknowledged that the United States should have had more troops
available after Saddam Hussein was overthrown in 2003.

"But what's happening on the ground now shows those leading our effort now
have learned from our mistakes," he said, "and they're going with what
works."