Mo



Wake up, Europe, you've a war on your hands


November 6, 2005

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST





Ever since 9/11, I've been gloomily predicting the European powder keg's
about to go up. ''By 2010 we'll be watching burning buildings, street riots
and assassinations on the news every night,'' I wrote in Canada's Western
Standard back in February.



Silly me. The Eurabian civil war appears to have started some years ahead of
my optimistic schedule. As Thursday's edition of the Guardian reported in
London: ''French youths fired at police and burned over 300 cars last night
as towns around Paris experienced their worst night of violence in a week of
urban unrest.''

''French youths,'' huh? You mean Pierre and Jacques and Marcel and Alphonse?
Granted that most of the "youths" are technically citizens of the French
Republic, it doesn't take much time in les banlieus of Paris to discover
that the rioters do not think of their primary identity as ''French'':
They're young men from North Africa growing ever more estranged from the
broader community with each passing year and wedded ever more intensely to
an assertive Muslim identity more implacable than anything you're likely to
find in the Middle East. After four somnolent years, it turns out finally
that there really is an explosive ''Arab street,'' but it's in
Clichy-sous-Bois.



http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn...-steyn06.html#

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:49:26 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:

Wake up, Europe, you've a war on your hands

What? where? Oh, now you mention it... Tought it were just some boys
having a bit of fun...

Well, we always turn to the US when it's to do with fighting, don't
we? So, what do you suggest...,
Make firearms more accessible to the people?
Say it's Al Qaeda and invade Pakistan?
Call 'm illegal warriors, open up some camp on an island and put all
these guys in there for years without a trial?

Surprise me,

Regards, Len.

"Len" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:49:26 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:

Wake up, Europe, you've a war on your hands

What? where? Oh, now you mention it... Tought it were just some boys
having a bit of fun...

Well, we always turn to the US when it's to do with fighting, don't
we? So, what do you suggest...,
Make firearms more accessible to the people?
Say it's Al Qaeda and invade Pakistan?
Call 'm illegal warriors, open up some camp on an island and put all
these guys in there for years without a trial?

I like the camp on an island idea. But a better idea would be to get rid of
the governments in the Middle East which support or condone madrassas that
teach young Muslims to hate Israel and the West.

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:02:52 +0100, Len wrote:

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:49:26 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:

Wake up, Europe, you've a war on your hands

What? where? Oh, now you mention it... Tought it were just some boys
having a bit of fun...

Well, we always turn to the US when it's to do with fighting, don't
we? So, what do you suggest...,
Make firearms more accessible to the people?
Say it's Al Qaeda and invade Pakistan?
Call 'm illegal warriors, open up some camp on an island and put all
these guys in there for years without a trial?

Surprise me,

Regards, Len.

What's the Netherlands doing about the problems they're having with Muslims,
Len? My friend in Stolwyjk seems to think there *is* a developing problem over
there, and that taxes can be raised only so far to keep giving money to folks
who aren't earning it.

Regards,
--
John H

"It's *not* a baby kicking, bride of mine, it's just a fetus!"

Hypocrital Liberal

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:39:35 -0500, John H.
wrote:

What's the Netherlands doing about the problems they're having with Muslims,
Len? My friend in Stolwyjk seems to think there *is* a developing problem over
there, and that taxes can be raised only so far to keep giving money to folks
who aren't earning it.

Locally:

1) The problem in our country comes from a very small minority of
muslim-youngsters that later on are being influenced by foreign
jihadist-recruters.

2) The vast majority are muslims that want a normal life. These people
don't live up to the "pure" islam taken literally. Seems everyone is
forgetting this large group.

3) These youngsters have trouble finding jobs cause economy is at a
baisse over here. So there are only few employers and these are able
to be picky.

This attitude is one of the causes. It is over here and it is in
France and in Germany and in.... The governments can't throw a switch
here. It's up to us, the society itself to give the boys and sometimes
girls a fair chance.

Also the right wing attitude of "all muslims are extremists" is to be
prevented/altered. In your eyes maybe a soft "therapy" but in the long
run an essential one.

Legislation is being adapted so the intention to use violence in the
future can be dealt with properly.

I see where your friend is coming from. He shouldn't be afraid of a
tax-raise. Present government is increasing net income for the well to
do and also increases costs like healthcosts for the poor and elderly.
But spending taxpayers money to keep these people "working" is no
solution, never is imo. And this is not what is planned. It's the
expectability to get a real job that is to be improved. Ethnical
discrimination *is* a fact amongst employers. In a sense it may be
understandable but is causes immense trouble in the long run.


Internationally:

We're dependant of the world-leading nation: the us of a and the way
it assesses the global situation, the wisdom and vision with which it
applies measures. We suffer more from ethnic troubles when the us
unintentionally feed the moral conviction of radical muslims by
occupying muslim countries for the wrong reasons.
The nuance between "lie" and "wrong intelligence" is of no importance
here.

When the legitimation is altered from WMD to moral obligation to
remove a fierce dictator, then a success in helping the freed
population would be of great value. Why is there still no
infrastructure, no electricity in Bagdad after such a period of time?

But first people should accept the fact the Islam has many faces and
there are a few radical muslims inside or better: next to a large
group of kind, peace-seeking muslims. Just like there are
fundamentalist-christians who are consumed by their hate against (in
their eyes) non-christians who want to have a choice regarding fi
abortion, gay-marriage and euthanasia.

Regards, Len.

"Len" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:39:35 -0500, John H.
wrote:

What's the Netherlands doing about the problems they're having with
Muslims,
Len? My friend in Stolwyjk seems to think there *is* a developing problem
over
there, and that taxes can be raised only so far to keep giving money to
folks
who aren't earning it.

Locally:

1) The problem in our country comes from a very small minority of
muslim-youngsters that later on are being influenced by foreign
jihadist-recruters.

Agreed, and we are taught in school here that the leaders of this jihadist
do NOT want the plight of their people improved, they want them poor and
demoralized so that they have a ready supply of recruits. Thus they bomb
schools and infrastructures. They also Encourage the people to not
integrate in the country they have immegrated to.

2) The vast majority are muslims that want a normal life. These people
don't live up to the "pure" islam taken literally. Seems everyone is
forgetting this large group.

Unfortunately they get painted with the broad brush of discrimination
because they are easily identified because of their religious practices with
the jihadists. The same problem happens here with blacks, because the crime
and disease rate for blacks is 5 times that of the others in this country
and they are easily identified because of their color. It's unfortunate and
the attitude of others is that they initially distrust until proven wrong.

3) These youngsters have trouble finding jobs cause economy is at a
baisse over here. So there are only few employers and these are able
to be picky.

Picky because you can choose a culturally known over an unknown employee.

This attitude is one of the causes. It is over here and it is in
France and in Germany and in.... The governments can't throw a switch
here. It's up to us, the society itself to give the boys and sometimes
girls a fair chance.

Also the right wing attitude of "all muslims are extremists" is to be
prevented/altered. In your eyes maybe a soft "therapy" but in the long
run an essential one.

It's the other way around or it's an impossible job. The muslems need to
prove that they are worthy of trust, not that we have to double think and
assume they are worthy of trust. They can do this by speaking out and
helping the police get these muslim extremists jailed. They won't unless
they have extreme courage as many are killed if they speak out.

Legislation is being adapted so the intention to use violence in the
future can be dealt with properly.

You already have laws as we did that deal with those issues. The problem is
that laws don't protect us from criminals they protect us from the law
abiding. Revisions of laws to allow the law abiding to protect us by
allowing them to invade the privacy of the criminals are needed.

I see where your friend is coming from. He shouldn't be afraid of a
tax-raise. Present government is increasing net income for the well to
do and also increases costs like healthcosts for the poor and elderly.
But spending taxpayers money to keep these people "working" is no
solution, never is imo. And this is not what is planned. It's the
expectability to get a real job that is to be improved. Ethnical
discrimination *is* a fact amongst employers. In a sense it may be
understandable but is causes immense trouble in the long run.


Internationally:

We're dependant of the world-leading nation: the US of A. and the way
it assesses the global situation, the wisdom and vision with which it
applies measures. We suffer more from ethnic troubles when the US
unintentionally feed the moral conviction of radical muslims by
occupying muslim countries for the wrong reasons.
The nuance between "lie" and "wrong intelligence" is of no importance
here.

Again, why do they care if Saddam was toppled, because he is Muslim.... the
religious leaders are whipping up resentment of non muslim countries. Many
of us thought that (nievely) there would be praise for a liberator of the
muslim people for a country that freed 20 million muslims from oppression.
This we projected would be the morally correct view. Morals have nothing to
do with a religious war by Muslim leaders on non muslim countries.


When the legitimation is altered from WMD to moral obligation to
remove a fierce dictator, then a success in helping the freed
population would be of great value. Why is there still no
infrastructure, no electricity in Bagdad after such a period of time?

Because the terrorists AND muslim leaders do not want a successful pro west
Iraq.

But first people should accept the fact the Islam has many faces and
there are a few radical muslims inside or better: next to a large
group of kind, peace-seeking muslims. Just like there are
fundamentalist-christians who are consumed by their hate against (in
their eyes) non-christians who want to have a choice regarding fi
abortion, gay-marriage and euthanasia.

Change few to many but with the proviso that; All muslim leaders are pushing
for the expansion of the Muslim religion, some few by violence. All will
take advantage of propaganda to inflame hatred of the west and then when
violence breaks out preach against it to their people. This has been the
trend over centuries. Inflame to violence and then preach compassion and
peace, inflame again and then caution compassion and peace...all while
taking over country by country using violent revolution. Any who preach
against their goals is killed so that all fear and none speak out.

The problem for us is that it works....All we offer is a world view that
allows the comman man the best life possible. We offer the scientific
method not dogma. But the scientific method does not allow one to blame
someone else for ones fortunes or lack of them. Thus it's not a popular way
of thought with the lazy or ignorant (majority of humanity).


Regards, Len.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:40:37 +0100, Len wrote:

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:39:35 -0500, John H.
wrote:

What's the Netherlands doing about the problems they're having with Muslims,
Len? My friend in Stolwyjk seems to think there *is* a developing problem over
there, and that taxes can be raised only so far to keep giving money to folks
who aren't earning it.

Locally:

1) The problem in our country comes from a very small minority of
muslim-youngsters that later on are being influenced by foreign
jihadist-recruters.

Are the recruiters also youngsters? If not, from where do they get their hatred
of the Netherlands?


2) The vast majority are muslims that want a normal life. These people
don't live up to the "pure" islam taken literally. Seems everyone is
forgetting this large group.

Seems like everyone is forgetting the same group in Iraq.

3) These youngsters have trouble finding jobs cause economy is at a
baisse over here. So there are only few employers and these are able
to be picky.

Perhaps you should try providing less welfare, lower the taxes, give people more
money to spend, increase the demand for goods, produce more goods, and thereby
give more people jobs.

This attitude is one of the causes. It is over here and it is in
France and in Germany and in.... The governments can't throw a switch
here. It's up to us, the society itself to give the boys and sometimes
girls a fair chance.

I agree. But, you surely can't say that *any* of those problems are Bush's
fault.

Also the right wing attitude of "all muslims are extremists" is to be
prevented/altered. In your eyes maybe a soft "therapy" but in the long
run an essential one.

I've never thought all Muslims were extremists. I was a teacher for a time. I
had many Muslims as students and dealt with their parents. They were regular
folk.

Legislation is being adapted so the intention to use violence in the
future can be dealt with properly.



I see where your friend is coming from. He shouldn't be afraid of a
tax-raise. Present government is increasing net income for the well to
do and also increases costs like healthcosts for the poor and elderly.
But spending taxpayers money to keep these people "working" is no
solution, never is imo. And this is not what is planned. It's the
expectability to get a real job that is to be improved. Ethnical
discrimination *is* a fact amongst employers. In a sense it may be
understandable but is causes immense trouble in the long run.


Internationally:

We're dependant of the world-leading nation: the us of a and the way
it assesses the global situation, the wisdom and vision with which it
applies measures. We suffer more from ethnic troubles when the us
unintentionally feed the moral conviction of radical muslims by
occupying muslim countries for the wrong reasons.
The nuance between "lie" and "wrong intelligence" is of no importance
here.

Why do you say you're dependant on the US of A? Ah, here we go with the 'blame
the USA' attitude again. "We suffer more from....when the us (sic) ..."

Pferdeäpfel

When the legitimation is altered from WMD to moral obligation to
remove a fierce dictator, then a success in helping the freed
population would be of great value. Why is there still no
infrastructure, no electricity in Bagdad after such a period of time?

Your exaggerations are false. There is infrastructure and there is electricity
in Baghdad. It may not be perfect, yet, but it's there.

But first people should accept the fact the Islam has many faces and
there are a few radical muslims inside or better: next to a large
group of kind, peace-seeking muslims. Just like there are
fundamentalist-christians who are consumed by their hate against (in
their eyes) non-christians who want to have a choice regarding fi
abortion, gay-marriage and euthanasia.

Geen probleem!

Regards, Len.

--
John H

"It's *not* a baby kicking, bride of mine, it's just a fetus!"

Hypocrital Liberal

"John H." wrote in message
...

2) The vast majority are muslims that want a normal life. These people
don't live up to the "pure" islam taken literally. Seems everyone is
forgetting this large group.

Seems like everyone is forgetting the same group in Iraq.

Isn't it odd that in interviews with local officials on the news, they're
not talking about this as a jihad? Where did you hear about a jihad, John?
I'd like to follow the same news as you do.

"John H." wrote in message
...
On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:02:52 +0100, Len
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:49:26 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:

Wake up, Europe, you've a war on your hands

What? where? Oh, now you mention it... Tought it were just some boys
having a bit of fun...

Well, we always turn to the US when it's to do with fighting, don't
we? So, what do you suggest...,
Make firearms more accessible to the people?
Say it's Al Qaeda and invade Pakistan?
Call 'm illegal warriors, open up some camp on an island and put all
these guys in there for years without a trial?

Surprise me,

Regards, Len.

What's the Netherlands doing about the problems they're having with
Muslims,
Len? My friend in Stolwyjk seems to think there *is* a developing problem
over
there, and that taxes can be raised only so far to keep giving money to
folks
who aren't earning it.

Your friend is right. There is a problem developing over there. It's pretty
much the same problem that developed here in the early 1960s when we were
ignoring them pesky Negroes in places like Watts and Detroit. Now, there's
them pesky brown people who just happen to be Muslims.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:07:11 +0000, Doug Kanter wrote:


Your friend is right. There is a problem developing over there. It's
pretty much the same problem that developed here in the early 1960s when
we were ignoring them pesky Negroes in places like Watts and Detroit. Now,
there's them pesky brown people who just happen to be Muslims.

Something overlooked here, birth rates. Those pesky brown people are
there for the same reason those pesky Hispanics are here. To enable a
growing economy. Birth rates in this country are so low that we can
barely maintain our population, let alone a growing economy. Birth rates
are even lower in Europe. Without immigration, both economies will
just shrivel up.