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Liberal Racist?
Harry sez...
I've got nuthin' against Indians, some of my best friends are Indians. That's a load of crap. Any body who resorts to that line is racist. "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... I've been an ATT Wireless customer for nearly eight years, but not for long. ATT Wireless (which is not owned by ATT now but used to be) has contracted out its customer service department to India. Next week, I'm going to cancel my ATT Wireless account and pay a $150 penalty for getting out of my contract with that provider. I have nothing against India or that country's workforce. But I'd rather the dollars I shell out for services provide incomes for workers on this continent. I'm delighted to report that at the local supermarket I frequent, not only are the self-checkout lanes mostly unused, but that I always hear customers telling the managers they're NOT going to use self-checkout because it puts their friends and neighbors who are employed at that market out of work. Further, one of our local hospitals apparently was going to ship its non-emergency radiology interpretation work overseas using electronic file transfer of some sort. A petitiot drive started up, and enough signatures were obtained to "convince" the hospital to NOT do that. You *can* make a difference. |
Liberal Racist?
This is the same Harry that drives a Toyota, claims to have a non union
made Parker boat with Yamaha engines? Figures. G "1900" wrote in message ... Harry sez... I've got nuthin' against Indians, some of my best friends are Indians. That's a load of crap. Any body who resorts to that line is racist. "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... I've been an ATT Wireless customer for nearly eight years, but not for long. ATT Wireless (which is not owned by ATT now but used to be) has contracted out its customer service department to India. Next week, I'm going to cancel my ATT Wireless account and pay a $150 penalty for getting out of my contract with that provider. I have nothing against India or that country's workforce. But I'd rather the dollars I shell out for services provide incomes for workers on this continent. I'm delighted to report that at the local supermarket I frequent, not only are the self-checkout lanes mostly unused, but that I always hear customers telling the managers they're NOT going to use self-checkout because it puts their friends and neighbors who are employed at that market out of work. Further, one of our local hospitals apparently was going to ship its non-emergency radiology interpretation work overseas using electronic file transfer of some sort. A petitiot drive started up, and enough signatures were obtained to "convince" the hospital to NOT do that. You *can* make a difference. |
Liberal Racist?
1900,
Racist?? Are you an idiot, or what? Ever try to get any tech service or assistance from those folks? They simply read from scripts as far as I can tell. Indian tech service sucks, IMO, and when I encounter it my relationship with the company foisting such substandard service onto me is finished. Butch "1900" wrote in message ... Harry sez... I've got nuthin' against Indians, some of my best friends are Indians. That's a load of crap. Any body who resorts to that line is racist. "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... I've been an ATT Wireless customer for nearly eight years, but not for long. ATT Wireless (which is not owned by ATT now but used to be) has contracted out its customer service department to India. Next week, I'm going to cancel my ATT Wireless account and pay a $150 penalty for getting out of my contract with that provider. I have nothing against India or that country's workforce. But I'd rather the dollars I shell out for services provide incomes for workers on this continent. I'm delighted to report that at the local supermarket I frequent, not only are the self-checkout lanes mostly unused, but that I always hear customers telling the managers they're NOT going to use self-checkout because it puts their friends and neighbors who are employed at that market out of work. Further, one of our local hospitals apparently was going to ship its non-emergency radiology interpretation work overseas using electronic file transfer of some sort. A petitiot drive started up, and enough signatures were obtained to "convince" the hospital to NOT do that. You *can* make a difference. |
Liberal Racist?
"Butch Davis" wrote in message ink.net... 1900, Racist?? Are you an idiot, or what? Ever try to get any tech service or assistance from those folks? They simply read from scripts as far as I can tell. Indian tech service sucks, IMO, and when I encounter it my relationship with the company foisting such substandard service onto me is finished. I have to agree. My son bought a Dell computer against my advice. He's having a problem with his network card as diagnosed by his service provider. He called 'India' and wasted an hour talking to a 'service rep' who insisted nothing was wrong from 10,000 miles away. I advised my son to just purchase a new card and listen to the 'old man' next time. |
Liberal Racist?
"Don White" wrote in message ... "Butch Davis" wrote in message ink.net... 1900, Racist?? Are you an idiot, or what? Ever try to get any tech service or assistance from those folks? They simply read from scripts as far as I can tell. Indian tech service sucks, IMO, and when I encounter it my relationship with the company foisting such substandard service onto me is finished. I have to agree. My son bought a Dell computer against my advice. He's having a problem with his network card as diagnosed by his service provider. He called 'India' and wasted an hour talking to a 'service rep' who insisted nothing was wrong from 10,000 miles away. I advised my son to just purchase a new card and listen to the 'old man' next time. Whattya expect? Everyone wants to buy a computer for $600 today which sold for $1500 two years ago. You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour? |
Liberal Racist?
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message ... "Butch Davis" wrote in message ink.net... 1900, Racist?? Are you an idiot, or what? Ever try to get any tech service or assistance from those folks? They simply read from scripts as far as I can tell. Indian tech service sucks, IMO, and when I encounter it my relationship with the company foisting such substandard service onto me is finished. I have to agree. My son bought a Dell computer against my advice. He's having a problem with his network card as diagnosed by his service provider. He called 'India' and wasted an hour talking to a 'service rep' who insisted nothing was wrong from 10,000 miles away. I advised my son to just purchase a new card and listen to the 'old man' next time. Whattya expect? Everyone wants to buy a computer for $600 today which sold for $1500 two years ago. You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour? Perhaps in January 2005 in Crawford? I had another "customer service" run-in today with another offshore company, whose representative told me a product I bought would be in my hands in five to seven days, as soon as it was shipped to my address from Largo, Maryland. That's about 50 miles away. So I asked the person on the other end of the phone where she was, and she said, "We're in Largo." I asked her if she had heard of the Maryland county in which I live. She said no. She obviously was not in Largo. Found out she was in Manilla. I just cancelled the order and will be sending a letter to the CEO of the company involved. |
Liberal Racist?
"Don White" wrote in message ... "Butch Davis" wrote in message ink.net... 1900, Racist?? Are you an idiot, or what? Ever try to get any tech service or assistance from those folks? They simply read from scripts as far as I can tell. Indian tech service sucks, IMO, and when I encounter it my relationship with the company foisting such substandard service onto me is finished. I have to agree. My son bought a Dell computer against my advice. He's having a problem with his network card as diagnosed by his service provider. He called 'India' and wasted an hour talking to a 'service rep' who insisted nothing was wrong from 10,000 miles away. I advised my son to just purchase a new card and listen to the 'old man' next time. Actually Dell makes a pretty decent pc if you don't go with the cheapest one (the Dimension 2400 with audio and video integrated into the motherboard). The Dimension 4600 is consistently rated as a best buy with high marks on performance. Next time you get hooked up with a tech from India ask to be transferred to one in the US. They will gladly transfer you. |
Liberal Racist?
You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who
are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour? $1 per hour is the going rate for English speaking help in India or the Phillipines. 'Course you can halfway live on $40 a week in some places. In Texas, that 40 bucks would fill your gas tank, buy you a six pack, and leave enough left over for a corn dog. Every week. |
Liberal Racist?
Gould,
I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1 an hour, can you provide a link? "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour? $1 per hour is the going rate for English speaking help in India or the Phillipines. 'Course you can halfway live on $40 a week in some places. In Texas, that 40 bucks would fill your gas tank, buy you a six pack, and leave enough left over for a corn dog. Every week. |
Liberal Racist?
Gould,
I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1 an hour, can you provide a link? Enter: $1 hour wages India in a search engine. I got 807 hits. Checking several of them establishes a common agreement that help line, warranty, and other customer service workers in India are earning $1 an hour, or in some cases less. Our local newspaper ran a series on outsourcing last winter, and the wage figure was mentioned repeatedly. It isn't possible for Americans to decide to work cheaply enough to compete. $2000 a year won't support *anybody* in the US. Programmers, tech writers, accountants, are next. Any job that can be done at a computer and the results sent in to a website from anywhere around the world will no longer be done in the US. Time to take up plumbing, auto mechanics, house painting, or some type of sales that can't be handled strictly over the telephone. Say hello the world economy. The great "equalizer". Those at the top will be brought down a peg or three (that would be working folks in NA), so that the poorest of the poor folk elsewhere can step up a little. If you're living in a mud hut in a 3rd world country, you may soon be slightly better off. If you own enough of any one of the companies making astronomical profits by paying almost nothing for wages, you will soon be better off as well. Everybody else, not so much. |
Liberal Racist?
Sir Spamalot wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:16:27 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Gould 0738 wrote: You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour? $1 per hour is the going rate for English speaking help in India or the Phillipines. 'Course you can halfway live on $40 a week in some places. In Texas, that 40 bucks would fill your gas tank, buy you a six pack, and leave enough left over for a corn dog. Every week. Are you kidding? You'd also be able to rent a cardboard box in which to live and buy bullets for your gun. I had a "delightful" encounter with two customer service women in the Phillipines today. Both of them lied to me when I asked where they were located, and tried to claim they were in the United States. They were in Manilla. Their English was awful, the phone connection was lousy, and the only "answers" they had came off a script. It's not their fault; I'm sure they were told to lie about their location, on pain of losing their crappy jobs. Well, more of my business they are not getting. I see no reason to pay premium prices for goods and services "backed up" by incompetent companies "offshore" who do it on the cheap and don't bother to hire decent help or provide the necessary training. There should be a backlash to this among Americans. It's really not a political issue, or it shouldn't be. Middle-class Anericans and those striving to reach the middle class should be absolutely opposed to the transfer of American jobs to ports of cheap labor. How many letters have you sent to the company, copying your senators/congressman/representatives/state senators at the same time? I bet none. As a matter of fact, I sent a hard copy paper letter off today to the CEO of that company, which is based in Maryland, and I cc'd the governor and my local US representative. The governor, however, is a Republican, and unlikely to give a tinker's dam, if it means interfering with a corporation's hiring practices. Further, I do whatever I can to encourage others I encounter in appropriate settings to dump companies who have moved their call centers to cheap labor markets and in the process cause Americans to lose their jobs. My contract with my cell carrier of about seven years is up, and I am not renewing, because it has moved its CS to India and since it has done that, the CS has gone right down the toilet. More and more health insurance companies are offshoring their claims departments. It is hard to imagine something worse than trying to deal with a human automaton in India who cannot deviate from the script of customer dissatisfaction. |
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in590004.shtml
On any given day in New Delhi and Bombay and Bangalore, the call goes out for new call center recruits as more and more American companies come calling. The call center employees earn $3,000 to $5,000 a year, in a nation where the per capita income is less than $500. The perks include free private transport to and from work plus the sheer heaven of an air-conditioned workplace. Now John, I know you are going to say that 3 grand a year does not equal 1 dollar an hour, but you must remember the people there are reported to work 12 hours a day 5 and 6 days a week. 5 days a week is 3120 hours a year 6 days a week is 3744 hours a year An American, working a 40 hour work week at minimum wage of $5.25 per hour would make a gross salary of 10,920 "John Smith" wrote in message news:hfHGc.36245$XM6.24561@attbi_s53... Gould, I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1 an hour, can you provide a link? "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour? $1 per hour is the going rate for English speaking help in India or the Phillipines. 'Course you can halfway live on $40 a week in some places. In Texas, that 40 bucks would fill your gas tank, buy you a six pack, and leave enough left over for a corn dog. Every week. |
Liberal Racist?
FYI, AT&T's SC is in India.
Butch "Anonymous" wrote in message news:5G46YSZ238175.0286111111@anonymous... On Tue, 06 Jul 2004, "1900" wrote: Harry sez... I've got nuthin' against Indians, some of my best friends are Indians. That's a load of crap. Any body who resorts to that line is racist. Yeah, he is signing up with Cingular the new owners of AT&T. How stupid to get locked in to a contract with AT&T. They were the first "no contract" required cellular provider. Must have fallen for a gimmick. "Free? where do I sign?" I suppose he must have a cell phone on his lobster boat, eh? -=- This message was posted via two or more anonymous remailing services. |
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Butch Davis wrote:
FYI, AT&T's SC is in India. Butch "Anonymous" wrote in message news:5G46YSZ238175.0286111111@anonymous... On Tue, 06 Jul 2004, "1900" wrote: Harry sez... I've got nuthin' against Indians, some of my best friends are Indians. That's a load of crap. Any body who resorts to that line is racist. Yeah, he is signing up with Cingular the new owners of AT&T. How stupid to get locked in to a contract with AT&T. They were the first "no contract" required cellular provider. Must have fallen for a gimmick. "Free? where do I sign?" I suppose he must have a cell phone on his lobster boat, eh? -=- This message was posted via two or more anonymous remailing services. Indeed, the main ATT Wireless call center is in India. And, as I stated, I'm dropping ATT. It isn't ATT anyway...just another company that bought ATT's wireless some years ago. And, indeed, Cingular has an offer pending for what is called ATT Wireless. But I'm not going with Cingular. You know, there really isn't a top-drawer cell provider anymore. ATT used to be the best, when it was ATT. I've heard that Verizon is the "best of the rest," but it is only second-rate. |
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Personally, I use Sprint.. Never have had any problems with them and I get
great prices both for my cellular and for my home long distance. As a Sprint Cellular customer, I get unlimited long distance on my home phone for only 15 bucks a month.... Much better than the old 300 dollar phone bills! "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Butch Davis wrote: Indeed, the main ATT Wireless call center is in India. And, as I stated, I'm dropping ATT. It isn't ATT anyway...just another company that bought ATT's wireless some years ago. And, indeed, Cingular has an offer pending for what is called ATT Wireless. But I'm not going with Cingular. You know, there really isn't a top-drawer cell provider anymore. ATT used to be the best, when it was ATT. I've heard that Verizon is the "best of the rest," but it is only second-rate. |
Liberal Racist?
Gould,
Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center employees $1 / hr. Yes, they do pay substantially less in India, ($2 to $3/hr level vs. $7.50/ hr in the Milwaukee area (salary estimates in 2002) (see below) but, according to someone who lives in India the purchasing power of a $1 in India is equal to $5 in the US, so in reality the $2 to $3 salary is actually equal to $10 to $15 of purchasing power, which seems much more believeable than the $1/hr range that people like to quote as a fact. From Prof. Webmasters: (I have a friend in Mumbai who says that 1 USD = 50 rs... but the purchasing power difference means that what we buy for $1 (a loaf of cheap bread?) really only costs 10 rs... So, $1USD = "$5 dollars" in terms of actual purchasing power. Therefore $10USD dollars an hour = $50 dollars of purchasing power over there. $15 = $75, $20 = $100 and so on. From Milwaukee Journal Sentinel an article concerning the problems of outsourcing: "Salaries in the Green Bay facility reportedly began at $7.50 an hour, compared with wages in India, where industry sources said $2 to $3 is the entry-level rate in that nation's burgeoning call-center sector" From Professional Webmaster Business Issues " I'm originally from India but currently living in the UK. wages for unskilled work in India are low. You can get a good full time gardener for $100 a month. BUT that doesn't apply to skilled programmers. You'll find that they charge less than their counterparts in the UK and the US but only about 20-30% less. Interpreting indian CVs can be tricky though, a problem I faced when I first came to the west and they didn't know what ICSE was (high school), didn't know how to appraise the grades I received at various stages in my education or what the value of some of my other qualifications were. Go by verifiable skills rather than certificates/qualifications (because it's still possible to buy the latter ;-)). Undead Hunter Full Member joined:Jan 6, 2003 posts: 157 msg #:5 5:20 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (utc 0) Hi Macro: I've had several companies quote me $20USD per hour - everything ranging from Flash to php/database solutions, with samples that look pretty decent. Several others are available on Elance, same rates. What rates are you seeing, then? Are you talking general web dev, or just Access as the first poster listed? bcolflesh Senior Member joined:Feb 21, 2003 posts: 1364 msg #:6 5:24 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (utc 0) BUT that doesn't apply to skilled programmers. My experience doesn't jibe with this - guys with cutting edge, enviable skillsets are making the lakhs in india, but it's comparable to $18,000 to $25,000 a year in the USA. Storyteller Full Member joined:May 3, 2003 posts:155 msg #:7 11:20 pm on Aug 9, 2003 (utc 0) I'm an offshore developer myself, and I've programmed a bit of MS Access for living (thank God, a long ago). I think Access skills aren't worth above $10/hour, no matter how solid. Access is heavily geared towards the low-skilled developer and one can become an expert in it in under a year. Not so with things like C++ or Perl, which can earn you $15-20/hour (but still hardly more). NeedScripts Senior Member joined:June 4, 2002 posts:621 msg #:8 11:49 pm on Aug 9, 2003 (utc 0) I am aware of lots of people in india who have done MCA (Masters of Computer Science) and working on a pay roll for Rs 10,000 or somewhere around it. The main reason that many programmer from india would like to charge like more than what they would make in a paycheck is: 1) Contract work is not secure enough for long run. Now if you were to show the person enough security and hire the person on paycheck for long run, I am sure you can get a *real good skilled programmer* for under US$ 700.00/month.. and if you want to be extra nice, than add another 300 bucks for each month and you got yourself a super nice programmer and hard worker. NS P.S. I am from india too. Macro Senior Member joined-July 31, 2003 posts:1098 msg #:9 5:16 pm on Aug 11, 2003 (utc 0) I bow to the wealth of experience others here have offered with respect to pay and going rates. Perhaps we overpaid, perhaps ours was a particularly awkward project. NeedScripts, the rates would vary widely. I'm sure you'll get someone just out of a basic NIIT course who'll be happy with Rs 10,000. Can you see someone just graduating from an IIT accepting that kind of money? I suppose my conclusion is that the rates could vary widely, which doesn't quite help johnser unfortunately. Now if you were to show the person enough security and hire the person on paycheck for long run I agree with that. Perhaps if you see the possibility of further development work it may be worth keeping him on the pay roll rather than agreeing a one-off fee. gopi Senior Member joined-Sept 10, 2001 posts:807 msg #:10 10:42 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (utc 0) Can you see someone just graduating from an IIT accepting that kind of money? IIT Graduates? - they all go work for wipro/infosys/ibm and endup settling in US after 2-3 years :) "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Gould, I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1 an hour, can you provide a link? Enter: $1 hour wages India in a search engine. I got 807 hits. Checking several of them establishes a common agreement that help line, warranty, and other customer service workers in India are earning $1 an hour, or in some cases less. Our local newspaper ran a series on outsourcing last winter, and the wage figure was mentioned repeatedly. It isn't possible for Americans to decide to work cheaply enough to compete. $2000 a year won't support *anybody* in the US. Programmers, tech writers, accountants, are next. Any job that can be done at a computer and the results sent in to a website from anywhere around the world will no longer be done in the US. Time to take up plumbing, auto mechanics, house painting, or some type of sales that can't be handled strictly over the telephone. Say hello the world economy. The great "equalizer". Those at the top will be brought down a peg or three (that would be working folks in NA), so that the poorest of the poor folk elsewhere can step up a little. If you're living in a mud hut in a 3rd world country, you may soon be slightly better off. If you own enough of any one of the companies making astronomical profits by paying almost nothing for wages, you will soon be better off as well. Everybody else, not so much. |
Liberal Racist?
"Harry Krause" wrote in message From what I have learned, the quality of cell service depends upon where you are in a provider's area, and what it is you are doing. Plus, as you mention below, the number and location of the cell towers. We have a similar problem regarding coverage, with Nextel. In our local and regional area we have a lot of dead areas, when you're not quite able to grab a cell. I suppose that results when one carrier has to lease tower space from another. Reputedly, Verizon coverage in this area is seamless. |
Liberal Racist?
PS - According to the CIA World Fact book, for someone in India to earn as
much purchasing power as the average worker in the US, they must earn $2900 per year. "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Gould, I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1 an hour, can you provide a link? Enter: $1 hour wages India in a search engine. I got 807 hits. Checking several of them establishes a common agreement that help line, warranty, and other customer service workers in India are earning $1 an hour, or in some cases less. Our local newspaper ran a series on outsourcing last winter, and the wage figure was mentioned repeatedly. It isn't possible for Americans to decide to work cheaply enough to compete. $2000 a year won't support *anybody* in the US. Programmers, tech writers, accountants, are next. Any job that can be done at a computer and the results sent in to a website from anywhere around the world will no longer be done in the US. Time to take up plumbing, auto mechanics, house painting, or some type of sales that can't be handled strictly over the telephone. Say hello the world economy. The great "equalizer". Those at the top will be brought down a peg or three (that would be working folks in NA), so that the poorest of the poor folk elsewhere can step up a little. If you're living in a mud hut in a 3rd world country, you may soon be slightly better off. If you own enough of any one of the companies making astronomical profits by paying almost nothing for wages, you will soon be better off as well. Everybody else, not so much. |
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"John Smith" wrote in message
news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51... Gould, Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center employees $1 / hr. Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one. |
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Doug,
I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect data is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of India, they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current rate of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the Telephone Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 - $6240 annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing the purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the average income in the US.) So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51... Gould, Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center employees $1 / hr. Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one. |
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Doug,
I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect info is transmitted as fact on the internet. Since Chuck is someone who prides himself on using logic not emotion in his debates, I am sure he would want to use accurate data, not often repeated incorrect data. According to the Times of India, they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current rate of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the Telephone Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 - $6240 annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing the purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the average income in the US.) So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51... Gould, Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center employees $1 / hr. Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one. |
Liberal Racist?
PS - According to the CIA World Fact book, for someone in India to earn as
much purchasing power as the average worker in the US, they must earn $2900 per year. That's $1.45 an hour, assuming the Indian workers do 5 (8-hr) days per week (not more) and get two weeks of unpaid vacation. I provide 807 links that establish a typical pay rate of $1 per hour, check a few to verify, and you fault my research? Here's a face-saving fig leaf for ya. A cut n paste from one article that says some wages in India can be as high as $2...... thereby ripping the heart out of my assertion that the Indian call center employees are working more cheaply than any American can afford to. (Typical liberal. Bemoans that no American can exist on $40 a week, when the facts are that a very industrious worker with a little seniority and a willingness to assume some management responsibility can eventually hope to rise to $80 a week. Instead of one corn dog a week, the industrious worker will be able to have a tank of gas, a six pack of beer, and a corn dog *every day*! Woo hoo! Watch those damn liberals, they refuse to see the upside potential) ************ Near-shore locations offer workers at wages lower than the US' though not as low as India's. According to Trammell Crow, typical hourly wages in US dollars are $2.50-$3 in Jamaica and $5-$7 in Canada compared to $7.50-$14 in the US. In contrast, India's typical hourly wages in US dollars are just $1-$2. **************** |
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1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said. Those people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here. 2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion. We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies are unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support. "John Smith" wrote in message news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04... Doug, I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect data is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of India, they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current rate of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the Telephone Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 - $6240 annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing the purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the average income in the US.) So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51... Gould, Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center employees $1 / hr. Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one. |
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Gould 0738 wrote:
PS - According to the CIA World Fact book, for someone in India to earn as much purchasing power as the average worker in the US, they must earn $2900 per year. That's $1.45 an hour, assuming the Indian workers do 5 (8-hr) days per week (not more) and get two weeks of unpaid vacation. You think the Indian government enforces some sort of wage-hour laws? Our government barely does so. |
Liberal Racist?
And, more important than us having poor service, AMERICAN ARE OUT OF WORK
because companies can save a buck by sending American jobs overseas. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... 1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said. Those people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here. 2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion. We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies are unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support. "John Smith" wrote in message news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04... Doug, I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect data is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of India, they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current rate of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the Telephone Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 - $6240 annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing the purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the average income in the US.) So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51... Gould, Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center employees $1 / hr. Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one. |
Liberal Racist?
Gould, the fact that a search engine shows 807 links, does not mean those
links are correct. If you type in "Kerry eats ****" in MSN search engine, it shows 4038 links. The facts are that the average telephone worker in India earns much more (in purchasing power), than the average worker in the US. The problem is in the exchange rate, and an isolationist policy or implementing a restrictive tariff on all goods and services imported into the US will not correct this problem or be of any benefit the US economy or it's work force. The vast majority of economist, both liberal and conservative economist believe that free and open trade between countries will benefit the US and it's work force. "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... PS - According to the CIA World Fact book, for someone in India to earn as much purchasing power as the average worker in the US, they must earn $2900 per year. That's $1.45 an hour, assuming the Indian workers do 5 (8-hr) days per week (not more) and get two weeks of unpaid vacation. I provide 807 links that establish a typical pay rate of $1 per hour, check a few to verify, and you fault my research? Here's a face-saving fig leaf for ya. A cut n paste from one article that says some wages in India can be as high as $2...... thereby ripping the heart out of my assertion that the Indian call center employees are working more cheaply than any American can afford to. (Typical liberal. Bemoans that no American can exist on $40 a week, when the facts are that a very industrious worker with a little seniority and a willingness to assume some management responsibility can eventually hope to rise to $80 a week. Instead of one corn dog a week, the industrious worker will be able to have a tank of gas, a six pack of beer, and a corn dog *every day*! Woo hoo! Watch those damn liberals, they refuse to see the upside potential) ************ Near-shore locations offer workers at wages lower than the US' though not as low as India's. According to Trammell Crow, typical hourly wages in US dollars are $2.50-$3 in Jamaica and $5-$7 in Canada compared to $7.50-$14 in the US. In contrast, India's typical hourly wages in US dollars are just $1-$2. **************** |
Liberal Racist?
According to the BBC survey of telephone support by country, those based in
the US provided the lowest quality. They rated those based in Europe as having the best quality, and the rated India's quality in the middle. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... 1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said. Those people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here. 2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion. We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies are unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support. "John Smith" wrote in message news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04... Doug, I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect data is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of India, they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current rate of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the Telephone Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 - $6240 annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing the purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the average income in the US.) So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51... Gould, Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center employees $1 / hr. Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one. |
Liberal Racist?
PS - According to Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, the
quality of some of India's telephone support in the software field, is the best in the world. They state that quality of support personnel is one of the key factors for the export of jobs to India. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... 1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said. Those people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here. 2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion. We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies are unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support. "John Smith" wrote in message news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04... Doug, I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect data is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of India, they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current rate of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the Telephone Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 - $6240 annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing the purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the average income in the US.) So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51... Gould, Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center employees $1 / hr. Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one. |
Liberal Racist?
Gould, the fact that a search engine shows 807 links, does not mean those
links are correct. The random examples I checked confirmed the $1/ hour typical wage. No. I did not follow all 807 links. The facts are that the average telephone worker in India earns much more (in purchasing power), than the average worker in the US. Have we shifted to relative purchasing power? I misunderstood our discussion to be centered upon the truth or fiction of the statement that wages in Indian call centers are about $1 an hour US. The problem is in the exchange rate, and an isolationist policy or implementing a restrictive tariff on all goods and services imported into the US will not correct this problem or be of any benefit the US economy or it's work force. I agree. It would be unrealistic to expect most corporations to avoid the race to the bottom, wage wise. Sometimes being competitive means seeking out the lowest common denominator and hanging on for dear life. Those Indians will soon discover what most of the offshore boat building countries have experienced in the last 15 or 20 years. As soon as the wages rise a little bit, the corporations will bail out of India as if the place had a contagious disease. If some county 1000 miles away will work for 50-cents and hour rather than a buck, he whole kit and kaboodle will upsticks and move. |
Liberal Racist?
India's Labor Laws, state that the maximum workday is 8 hrs a day and a
maximum workweek of 48 hrs. While smaller business using unskilled labor, do ignore those laws, the companies that involved in telephone support do not. wrote in message nk.net... http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in590004.shtml On any given day in New Delhi and Bombay and Bangalore, the call goes out for new call center recruits as more and more American companies come calling. The call center employees earn $3,000 to $5,000 a year, in a nation where the per capita income is less than $500. The perks include free private transport to and from work plus the sheer heaven of an air-conditioned workplace. Now John, I know you are going to say that 3 grand a year does not equal 1 dollar an hour, but you must remember the people there are reported to work 12 hours a day 5 and 6 days a week. 5 days a week is 3120 hours a year 6 days a week is 3744 hours a year An American, working a 40 hour work week at minimum wage of $5.25 per hour would make a gross salary of 10,920 "John Smith" wrote in message news:hfHGc.36245$XM6.24561@attbi_s53... Gould, I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1 an hour, can you provide a link? "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour? $1 per hour is the going rate for English speaking help in India or the Phillipines. 'Course you can halfway live on $40 a week in some places. In Texas, that 40 bucks would fill your gas tank, buy you a six pack, and leave enough left over for a corn dog. Every week. |
Liberal Racist?
According www.sweatshops-retail.org those in the "formal sector" (i.e.
Telephone support) do not work 12 hour days, but work 8 hrs and 40 to 48 hrs per week. wrote in message nk.net... Now John, I know you are going to say that 3 grand a year does not equal 1 dollar an hour, but you must remember the people there are reported to work 12 hours a day 5 and 6 days a week. 5 days a week is 3120 hours a year 6 days a week is 3744 hours a year An American, working a 40 hour work week at minimum wage of $5.25 per hour would make a gross salary of 10,920 "John Smith" wrote in message news:hfHGc.36245$XM6.24561@attbi_s53... Gould, I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1 an hour, can you provide a link? "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour? $1 per hour is the going rate for English speaking help in India or the Phillipines. 'Course you can halfway live on $40 a week in some places. In Texas, that 40 bucks would fill your gas tank, buy you a six pack, and leave enough left over for a corn dog. Every week. |
Liberal Racist?
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Have we shifted to relative purchasing power? I misunderstood our discussion to be centered upon the truth or fiction of the statement that wages in Indian call centers are about $1 an hour US. When I went to web sites of those involved in hiring the people involved in the call center support they stated that the average telephone support person earns $2 to $3 an hour, not $1 or less. Your links stating $1 were articles talking about the problem of outsourcing, and accurate facts were not important to the discussion. The problem is in the exchange rate, and an isolationist policy or implementing a restrictive tariff on all goods and services imported into the US will not correct this problem or be of any benefit the US economy or it's work force. I agree. It would be unrealistic to expect most corporations to avoid the race to the bottom, wage wise. Sometimes being competitive means seeking out the lowest common denominator and hanging on for dear life. Those Indians will soon discover what most of the offshore boat building countries have experienced in the last 15 or 20 years. As soon as the wages rise a little bit, the corporations will bail out of India as if the place had a contagious disease. If some county 1000 miles away will work for 50-cents and hour rather than a buck, he whole kit and kaboodle will upsticks and move. |
Liberal Racist?
Ok.. So it is 2496 hours a year
$3,000 dollars a year. $1.20 per hour Figuring a 48 hour work week: An American just lost $14,198.08 at the federal minimum wage of $5.25 per hour. A skilled American just lost $27,040 at $10.00 per hour. The company saved $11,198.08 or $24,040 for the skilled American, not including the amount they would have been paying in matching taxes to the United States Department of Social Security. The United States Government looses Federal Income Taxes paid by the employee, Social Security taxes paid by the employee, matching social security taxes paid by the company. The local government looses property taxes. The state government looses state employment taxes, state sales taxes. Looks like the Company is the winner in this while the rest of America suffers. Put the numbers to it, there is no way outsourcing jobs is good for the American people. "John Smith" wrote in message news:DNUGc.39078$%_6.9986@attbi_s01... India's Labor Laws, state that the maximum workday is 8 hrs a day and a maximum workweek of 48 hrs. While smaller business using unskilled labor, do ignore those laws, the companies that involved in telephone support do not. wrote in message nk.net... http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in590004.shtml On any given day in New Delhi and Bombay and Bangalore, the call goes out for new call center recruits as more and more American companies come calling. The call center employees earn $3,000 to $5,000 a year, in a nation where the per capita income is less than $500. The perks include free private transport to and from work plus the sheer heaven of an air-conditioned workplace. Now John, I know you are going to say that 3 grand a year does not equal 1 dollar an hour, but you must remember the people there are reported to work 12 hours a day 5 and 6 days a week. 5 days a week is 3120 hours a year 6 days a week is 3744 hours a year An American, working a 40 hour work week at minimum wage of $5.25 per hour would make a gross salary of 10,920 "John Smith" wrote in message news:hfHGc.36245$XM6.24561@attbi_s53... Gould, I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1 an hour, can you provide a link? "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour? $1 per hour is the going rate for English speaking help in India or the Phillipines. 'Course you can halfway live on $40 a week in some places. In Texas, that 40 bucks would fill your gas tank, buy you a six pack, and leave enough left over for a corn dog. Every week. |
Liberal Racist?
So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate
info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data. "Accurate data" being anything that agrees with your assertion and "rumors and incorrect data" anything that does not? Here's something so outdated it is certain to be incorrect. It's from July 2004: http://www.smihq.org/public/publicat..._outsource.pdf Check the second paragraph. "Wages for telephone operators in India are often less than $1 an hour." The article also lists a number of legislative steps currently under consideration to address the outsourcing issue. Makes interesting reading. |
Liberal Racist?
You sound like the people in the 1950's who were waging a war against
automation in the manufacturing sector, or in the 60's and 70's who were waging a war against people who were losing jobs to computers, or going back to the early 20th century, those in the buggy whip factories whose jobs were replaced by those in the automotive industry. The fact of the matter is if US companies do not do what is necessary to insure that they are not completive with other countries (i.e. European, Japan, Australia, Canada etc) it will result in substantially more US jobs lost than we are currently losing. Is this unfair to those who lose their jobs, definitely, but the alternative is substantially worse. The US or any other country can not ignore the fact the rules have changed, today we are in a world economy. Those industries and countries who adapt will prosper. Those countries and industries who ignore that fact, will go the way of the dodo bird. wrote in message nk.net... Ok.. So it is 2496 hours a year $3,000 dollars a year. $1.20 per hour Figuring a 48 hour work week: An American just lost $14,198.08 at the federal minimum wage of $5.25 per hour. A skilled American just lost $27,040 at $10.00 per hour. The company saved $11,198.08 or $24,040 for the skilled American, not including the amount they would have been paying in matching taxes to the United States Department of Social Security. The United States Government looses Federal Income Taxes paid by the employee, Social Security taxes paid by the employee, matching social security taxes paid by the company. The local government looses property taxes. The state government looses state employment taxes, state sales taxes. Looks like the Company is the winner in this while the rest of America suffers. Put the numbers to it, there is no way outsourcing jobs is good for the American people. "John Smith" wrote in message news:DNUGc.39078$%_6.9986@attbi_s01... India's Labor Laws, state that the maximum workday is 8 hrs a day and a maximum workweek of 48 hrs. While smaller business using unskilled labor, do ignore those laws, the companies that involved in telephone support do not. wrote in message nk.net... http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in590004.shtml On any given day in New Delhi and Bombay and Bangalore, the call goes out for new call center recruits as more and more American companies come calling. The call center employees earn $3,000 to $5,000 a year, in a nation where the per capita income is less than $500. The perks include free private transport to and from work plus the sheer heaven of an air-conditioned workplace. Now John, I know you are going to say that 3 grand a year does not equal 1 dollar an hour, but you must remember the people there are reported to work 12 hours a day 5 and 6 days a week. 5 days a week is 3120 hours a year 6 days a week is 3744 hours a year An American, working a 40 hour work week at minimum wage of $5.25 per hour would make a gross salary of 10,920 "John Smith" wrote in message news:hfHGc.36245$XM6.24561@attbi_s53... Gould, I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1 an hour, can you provide a link? "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour? $1 per hour is the going rate for English speaking help in India or the Phillipines. 'Course you can halfway live on $40 a week in some places. In Texas, that 40 bucks would fill your gas tank, buy you a six pack, and leave enough left over for a corn dog. Every week. |
Liberal Racist?
Great! Then they should all do what Microsoft did (and may still do -
haven't called them in years): Farm it out to Ireland at certain times of day. I used to get terrific responses from their tech support people. "John Smith" wrote in message news:1DUGc.39929$IQ4.24625@attbi_s02... According to the BBC survey of telephone support by country, those based in the US provided the lowest quality. They rated those based in Europe as having the best quality, and the rated India's quality in the middle. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... 1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said. Those people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here. 2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion. We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies are unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support. "John Smith" wrote in message news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04... Doug, I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect data is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of India, they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current rate of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the Telephone Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 - $6240 annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing the purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the average income in the US.) So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51... Gould, Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center employees $1 / hr. Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one. |
Liberal Racist?
Their knowledge is only part of the issue. If you can't understand them
because of their accent or poor telephone connection, then the service is worth precisely ZERO. "John Smith" wrote in message news:PHUGc.39955$IQ4.22295@attbi_s02... PS - According to Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, the quality of some of India's telephone support in the software field, is the best in the world. They state that quality of support personnel is one of the key factors for the export of jobs to India. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... 1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said. Those people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here. 2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion. We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies are unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support. "John Smith" wrote in message news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04... Doug, I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect data is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of India, they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current rate of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the Telephone Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 - $6240 annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing the purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the average income in the US.) So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data. "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51... Gould, Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center employees $1 / hr. Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one. |
Liberal Racist?
PS - According to Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, the
quality of some of India's telephone support in the software field, is the best in the world. They state that quality of support personnel is one of the key factors for the export of jobs to India. No doubt. They turn out 15 million college graduates a year in India, and most speak better English than Bubba the HS dropout. A couple of decades ago, we were somewhat insulated from outsourcing because even though overseas workers were willing to work for almost nothing, they often didn't have the skills or education to compete with US workers. Their training and education improved much faster than their demand for US dollars. Oh oh. |
Liberal Racist?
Gould 0738 wrote:
PS - According to Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, the quality of some of India's telephone support in the software field, is the best in the world. They state that quality of support personnel is one of the key factors for the export of jobs to India. No doubt. They turn out 15 million college graduates a year in India, and most speak better English than Bubba the HS dropout. A couple of times I nave to call Microsoft on a current software package support issue. If I end up with someone in India, I know for sure I will end up asking to be transferred to support personnel in the USA, and I already have escalated MS support because of my role as a beta tester of new releases. The support staffs in India simply do not know the system software well enough to make suggestions that are not on their "Cliff Notes." Add in the bad connections and the bad accents, and you end up with little more than frustration. I live and work in a major metro area, and interface every day with computer folks, usually staffs running huge server systems with thousands of desktops. None of them have anything good to say about software support from India. All it is is a way for corporations to milk more money out of us while providing worse service. |
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