Gould,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on
some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center
employees $1 / hr.

Yes, they do pay substantially less in India, ($2 to $3/hr
level vs. $7.50/ hr in the Milwaukee area (salary estimates in 2002) (see
below) but, according to someone who lives in India the purchasing power of
a $1 in India is equal to $5 in the US, so in reality the $2 to $3 salary is
actually equal to $10 to $15 of purchasing power, which seems much more
believeable than the $1/hr range that people like to quote as a fact.

From Prof. Webmasters: (I have a friend in Mumbai who says that 1 USD = 50
rs... but the purchasing power difference means that what we buy for $1 (a
loaf of cheap bread?) really only costs 10 rs... So, $1USD = "$5 dollars" in
terms of actual purchasing power. Therefore $10USD dollars an hour = $50
dollars of purchasing power over there. $15 = $75, $20 = $100 and so on.

From Milwaukee Journal Sentinel an article concerning the problems of
outsourcing:

"Salaries in the Green Bay facility reportedly began at $7.50 an hour,
compared with wages in India, where industry sources said $2 to $3 is the
entry-level rate in that nation's burgeoning call-center sector"

From
Professional Webmaster Business Issues

" I'm originally from India but currently living in the UK.
wages for unskilled work in India are low. You can get a good full
time gardener for $100 a month. BUT that doesn't apply to skilled
programmers. You'll find that they charge less than their counterparts in
the UK and the US but only about 20-30% less.

Interpreting indian CVs can be tricky though, a problem I faced when I
first came to the west and they didn't know what ICSE was (high school),
didn't know how to appraise the grades I received at various stages in my
education or what the value of some of my other qualifications were.

Go by verifiable skills rather than certificates/qualifications
(because it's still possible to buy the latter ;-)).


Undead Hunter
Full Member


joined:Jan 6, 2003
posts: 157
msg #:5 5:20 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (utc 0)
Hi Macro:
I've had several companies quote me $20USD per hour - everything
ranging from Flash to php/database solutions, with samples that look pretty
decent. Several others are available on Elance, same rates.

What rates are you seeing, then? Are you talking general web dev, or
just Access as the first poster listed?


bcolflesh
Senior Member


joined:Feb 21, 2003
posts: 1364
msg #:6 5:24 pm on Aug 8, 2003 (utc 0)
BUT that doesn't apply to skilled programmers.


My experience doesn't jibe with this - guys with cutting edge,
enviable skillsets are making the lakhs in india, but it's comparable to
$18,000 to $25,000 a year in the USA.


Storyteller
Full Member


joined:May 3, 2003
posts:155
msg #:7 11:20 pm on Aug 9, 2003 (utc 0)
I'm an offshore developer myself, and I've programmed a bit of MS
Access for living (thank God, a long ago). I think Access skills aren't
worth above $10/hour, no matter how solid. Access is heavily geared towards
the low-skilled developer and one can become an expert in it in under a
year. Not so with things like C++ or Perl, which can earn you $15-20/hour
(but still hardly more).

NeedScripts
Senior Member


joined:June 4, 2002
posts:621
msg #:8 11:49 pm on Aug 9, 2003 (utc 0)
I am aware of lots of people in india who have done MCA (Masters of
Computer Science) and working on a pay roll for Rs 10,000 or somewhere
around it.
The main reason that many programmer from india would like to charge
like more than what they would make in a paycheck is:

1) Contract work is not secure enough for long run.

Now if you were to show the person enough security and hire the person
on paycheck for long run, I am sure you can get a *real good skilled
programmer* for under US$ 700.00/month.. and if you want to be extra nice,
than add another 300 bucks for each month and you got yourself a super nice
programmer and hard worker.

NS

P.S. I am from india too.


Macro
Senior Member


joined-July 31, 2003
posts:1098
msg #:9 5:16 pm on Aug 11, 2003 (utc 0)
I bow to the wealth of experience others here have offered with
respect to pay and going rates.
Perhaps we overpaid, perhaps ours was a particularly awkward project.

NeedScripts, the rates would vary widely. I'm sure you'll get someone
just out of a basic NIIT course who'll be happy with Rs 10,000. Can you see
someone just graduating from an IIT accepting that kind of money?

I suppose my conclusion is that the rates could vary widely, which
doesn't quite help johnser unfortunately.

Now if you were to show the person enough security and
hire the person on paycheck for long run

I agree with that. Perhaps if you see the possibility of further
development work it may be worth keeping him on the pay roll rather than
agreeing a one-off fee.


gopi
Senior Member


joined-Sept 10, 2001
posts:807
msg #:10 10:42 pm on Aug 12, 2003 (utc 0)
Can you see someone just graduating from an IIT accepting that kind
of money?
IIT Graduates? - they all go work for wipro/infosys/ibm and endup
settling in US after 2-3 years



"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Gould,
I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1 an
hour,
can you provide a link?



Enter: $1 hour wages India in a search engine. I got 807 hits.
Checking several of them establishes a common agreement that help line,
warranty, and other customer service workers in India are
earning $1 an hour, or in some cases less.

Our local newspaper ran a series on outsourcing last winter, and the wage
figure was mentioned repeatedly.

It isn't possible for Americans to decide to work cheaply enough to
compete.
$2000 a year won't support *anybody* in the US.

Programmers, tech writers, accountants, are next. Any job that can be done
at a
computer and the results sent in to a website from anywhere around the
world
will no longer be done in the US. Time to take up plumbing, auto
mechanics,
house painting, or some type of sales that can't be handled strictly over
the
telephone.

Say hello the world economy. The great "equalizer". Those at the top will
be
brought down a peg or three (that would be working folks in NA), so that
the
poorest of the poor folk elsewhere can step up a little.
If you're living in a mud hut in a 3rd world country, you may soon be
slightly
better off. If you own enough of any one of the companies making
astronomical
profits by paying almost nothing for wages, you will soon be better off as
well. Everybody else, not so much.

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51...
Gould,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up on
some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call center
employees $1 / hr.

Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one.

Doug,

I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect data
is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of India,
they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current rate
of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the Telephone
Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for
telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 - $6240
annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing the
purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the average
income in the US.)

So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate
info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51...
Gould,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up
on
some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call
center
employees $1 / hr.

Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one.

1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said. Those
people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here.

2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion.
We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The
point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies are
unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support.


"John Smith" wrote in message
news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04...
Doug,

I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect
data
is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of India,
they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current
rate
of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the Telephone
Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for
telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 -
$6240
annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing the
purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the average
income in the US.)

So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate
info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51...
Gould,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed up
on
some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call
center
employees $1 / hr.

Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one.

And, more important than us having poor service, AMERICAN ARE OUT OF WORK
because companies can save a buck by sending American jobs overseas.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said. Those
people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here.

2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion.
We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The
point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies
are
unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support.


"John Smith" wrote in message
news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04...
Doug,

I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect
data
is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of
India,
they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current
rate
of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the
Telephone
Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for
telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 -
$6240
annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing
the
purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the
average
income in the US.)

So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate
info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51...
Gould,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed
up
on
some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call
center
employees $1 / hr.

Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one.

According to the BBC survey of telephone support by country, those based in
the US provided the lowest quality. They rated those based in Europe as
having the best quality, and the rated India's quality in the middle.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said. Those
people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here.

2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion.
We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The
point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies
are
unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support.


"John Smith" wrote in message
news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04...
Doug,

I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect
data
is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of
India,
they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current
rate
of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the
Telephone
Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for
telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 -
$6240
annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing
the
purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the
average
income in the US.)

So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate
info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51...
Gould,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed
up
on
some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call
center
employees $1 / hr.

Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one.

Great! Then they should all do what Microsoft did (and may still do -
haven't called them in years): Farm it out to Ireland at certain times of
day. I used to get terrific responses from their tech support people.

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:1DUGc.39929$IQ4.24625@attbi_s02...
According to the BBC survey of telephone support by country, those based
in
the US provided the lowest quality. They rated those based in Europe as
having the best quality, and the rated India's quality in the middle.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said.
Those
people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here.

2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion.
We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The
point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies
are
unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support.


"John Smith" wrote in message
news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04...
Doug,

I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and
incorrect
data
is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of
India,
they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their
current
rate
of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the
Telephone
Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for
telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 -
$6240
annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing
the
purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the
average
income in the US.)

So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use
accurate
info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51...
Gould,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have
followed
up
on
some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call
center
employees $1 / hr.

Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one.

PS - According to Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, the
quality of some of India's telephone support in the software field, is the
best in the world. They state that quality of support personnel is one of
the key factors for the export of jobs to India.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said. Those
people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here.

2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion.
We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The
point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies
are
unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support.


"John Smith" wrote in message
news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04...
Doug,

I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect
data
is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of
India,
they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current
rate
of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the
Telephone
Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for
telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 -
$6240
annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing
the
purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the
average
income in the US.)

So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate
info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51...
Gould,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed
up
on
some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call
center
employees $1 / hr.

Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one.

Their knowledge is only part of the issue. If you can't understand them
because of their accent or poor telephone connection, then the service is
worth precisely ZERO.

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:PHUGc.39955$IQ4.22295@attbi_s02...
PS - According to Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, the
quality of some of India's telephone support in the software field, is the
best in the world. They state that quality of support personnel is one of
the key factors for the export of jobs to India.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said.
Those
people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here.

2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion.
We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The
point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies
are
unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support.


"John Smith" wrote in message
news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04...
Doug,

I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and
incorrect
data
is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of
India,
they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their
current
rate
of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the
Telephone
Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for
telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 -
$6240
annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing
the
purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the
average
income in the US.)

So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use
accurate
info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51...
Gould,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have
followed
up
on
some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call
center
employees $1 / hr.

Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one.

PS - According to Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, the
quality of some of India's telephone support in the software field, is the
best in the world. They state that quality of support personnel is one of
the key factors for the export of jobs to India.

No doubt. They turn out 15 million college graduates a year in India, and most
speak
better English than Bubba the HS dropout.

A couple of decades ago, we were somewhat insulated from outsourcing because
even though overseas workers were willing to work for almost nothing, they
often didn't have the skills or education to compete with US workers. Their
training and education improved much faster than their demand for US dollars.
Oh oh.