Ok.. Let us put this into terms you can understand, it is plain to see I
have put it over your head.

1 of these jobs sent over seas that could be held by an unskilled American.

By the company hiring 2 unskilled Americans, 2 families can be reduced from
the American Welfare Roles. They can work 24 hours a week and earn around
the same amount as they get on welfare. Earning $6,552 per year.

By the company hiring 2 unskilled persons in America, the persons working at
the skilled rate of $10.00 per hour for the 24 hour work week, they would
earn $12,480 per year. This would possibly get them off welfare and
foodstamps.

Either way, the company is protected as the people are not "full time"
employees (no benefits), the United States Government gets the taxes, the
Local Governments get the taxes, The Department of Social Security gets an
infusion of money, and, you aren't "paying for some lazy so-and-so to sit at
home and do nothing while everyone else has to work to support them."

America becomes stronger, the economy is stimulated and it helps all of
America.

No, I don't sound like the people of the past, Progress is a move forward,
not a step back. Outsourcing jobs is not a step forward for our country. For
us to help the "world economy" we must be able to support our own economy.
We can't support our own if we are building someone else's just to make a
company rich.

If you want to see America Advance, you must start in America. You don't do
this by sending American Jobs to other countries, you don't do this by
opening the borders to employment from other countries. You do this by
building America then look toward inviting others to join in the prosperity.

I used to live in El Paso, Texas. They opened the border there for employees
from Mexico. Yes they are great people, yes they are hard workers. These
employees would come to America every day to work, they would earn 5.25 per
hour (more money in 1 week that they could earn in an entire month in
Mexico), but due to the number of employees working for minimum wage,
skilled Americans were unable to earn a living. They were exempt from all
taxes in the United States with the exception of State Sales Tax.



"John Smith" wrote in message
news:2iVGc.39249$%_6.16397@attbi_s01...
You sound like the people in the 1950's who were waging a war against
automation in the manufacturing sector, or in the 60's and 70's who were
waging a war against people who were losing jobs to computers, or going
back to the early 20th century, those in the buggy whip factories whose
jobs
were replaced by those in the automotive industry.

The fact of the matter is if US companies do not do what is necessary to
insure that they are not completive with other countries (i.e. European,
Japan, Australia, Canada etc) it will result in substantially more US jobs
lost than we are currently losing. Is this unfair to those who lose their
jobs, definitely, but the alternative is substantially worse.

The US or any other country can not ignore the fact the rules have
changed,
today we are in a world economy. Those industries and countries who adapt
will prosper. Those countries and industries who ignore that fact, will
go
the way of the dodo bird.


wrote in message
nk.net...
Ok.. So it is 2496 hours a year
$3,000 dollars a year.

$1.20 per hour

Figuring a 48 hour work week:
An American just lost $14,198.08 at the federal minimum wage of $5.25
per
hour.

A skilled American just lost $27,040 at $10.00 per hour.

The company saved $11,198.08 or $24,040 for the skilled American, not
including the amount they would have been paying in matching taxes to
the
United States Department of Social Security.

The United States Government looses Federal Income Taxes paid by the
employee, Social Security taxes paid by the employee, matching social
security taxes paid by the company.

The local government looses property taxes.

The state government looses state employment taxes, state sales taxes.

Looks like the Company is the winner in this while the rest of America
suffers.

Put the numbers to it, there is no way outsourcing jobs is good for the
American people.


"John Smith" wrote in message
newsNUGc.39078$%_6.9986@attbi_s01...
India's Labor Laws, state that the maximum workday is 8 hrs a day and
a
maximum workweek of 48 hrs. While smaller business using unskilled
labor,
do ignore those laws, the companies that involved in telephone support
do
not.




wrote in message
nk.net...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in590004.shtml
On any given day in New Delhi and Bombay and Bangalore, the call
goes
out
for new call center recruits as more and more American companies
come
calling. The call center employees earn $3,000 to $5,000 a year, in
a
nation
where the per capita income is less than $500. The perks include
free
private transport to and from work plus the sheer heaven of an
air-conditioned workplace.

Now John, I know you are going to say that 3 grand a year does not
equal
1
dollar an hour, but you must remember the people there are reported
to
work
12 hours a day 5 and 6 days a week.

5 days a week is 3120 hours a year
6 days a week is 3744 hours a year

An American, working a 40 hour work week at minimum wage of $5.25
per
hour
would make a gross salary of 10,920

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:hfHGc.36245$XM6.24561@attbi_s53...
Gould,
I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1
an
hour,
can you provide a link?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who
are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour?

$1 per hour is the going rate for English speaking help in India
or
the
Phillipines.

'Course you can halfway live on $40 a week in some places. In
Texas,
that
40
bucks would fill your gas tank, buy you a six pack, and leave
enough
left
over
for a corn dog. Every week.

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:2iVGc.39249$%_6.16397@attbi_s01...
You sound like the people in the 1950's who were waging a war against
automation in the manufacturing sector, or in the 60's and 70's who were
waging a war against people who were losing jobs to computers, or going
back to the early 20th century, those in the buggy whip factories whose
jobs
were replaced by those in the automotive industry.

He sounds like a liebral whiner who doesn't have a clue as to the purpose of
a corporation, nor of economics in general.

The purpose of a corporation is t make money for the shareholders.... its
pupose is NOT to provide jobs.

The value of a job is is based on what the lowest cost a person is willing
to perform it for. Unions and guvmint minimum wages are driving those jobs
out of the country......but liebral sare too blind to see it.



The fact of the matter is if US companies do not do what is necessary to
insure that they are not completive with other countries (i.e. European,
Japan, Australia, Canada etc) it will result in substantially more US jobs
lost than we are currently losing. Is this unfair to those who lose their
jobs, definitely, but the alternative is substantially worse.

The US or any other country can not ignore the fact the rules have
changed,
today we are in a world economy. Those industries and countries who adapt
will prosper. Those countries and industries who ignore that fact, will
go
the way of the dodo bird.


wrote in message
nk.net...
Ok.. So it is 2496 hours a year
$3,000 dollars a year.

$1.20 per hour

Figuring a 48 hour work week:
An American just lost $14,198.08 at the federal minimum wage of $5.25
per
hour.

A skilled American just lost $27,040 at $10.00 per hour.

The company saved $11,198.08 or $24,040 for the skilled American, not
including the amount they would have been paying in matching taxes to
the
United States Department of Social Security.

The United States Government looses Federal Income Taxes paid by the
employee, Social Security taxes paid by the employee, matching social
security taxes paid by the company.

The local government looses property taxes.

The state government looses state employment taxes, state sales taxes.

Looks like the Company is the winner in this while the rest of America
suffers.

Put the numbers to it, there is no way outsourcing jobs is good for the
American people.


"John Smith" wrote in message
newsNUGc.39078$%_6.9986@attbi_s01...
India's Labor Laws, state that the maximum workday is 8 hrs a day and
a
maximum workweek of 48 hrs. While smaller business using unskilled
labor,
do ignore those laws, the companies that involved in telephone support
do
not.




wrote in message
nk.net...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in590004.shtml
On any given day in New Delhi and Bombay and Bangalore, the call
goes
out
for new call center recruits as more and more American companies
come
calling. The call center employees earn $3,000 to $5,000 a year, in
a
nation
where the per capita income is less than $500. The perks include
free
private transport to and from work plus the sheer heaven of an
air-conditioned workplace.

Now John, I know you are going to say that 3 grand a year does not
equal
1
dollar an hour, but you must remember the people there are reported
to
work
12 hours a day 5 and 6 days a week.

5 days a week is 3120 hours a year
6 days a week is 3744 hours a year

An American, working a 40 hour work week at minimum wage of $5.25
per
hour
would make a gross salary of 10,920

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:hfHGc.36245$XM6.24561@attbi_s53...
Gould,
I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India $1
an
hour,
can you provide a link?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who
are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour?

$1 per hour is the going rate for English speaking help in India
or
the
Phillipines.

'Course you can halfway live on $40 a week in some places. In
Texas,
that
40
bucks would fill your gas tank, buy you a six pack, and leave
enough
left
over
for a corn dog. Every week.

Gould,
The minimum wage in Jharkhandndia is Rs 64.72 /hr. and in Delia are 70
Rs.which is more in the $1.50 to $1.75 range. When people quote an average
rate of $1/hr. they are looking at the minimum wage for the undeveloped
areas of India. According to the web sites encouraging outsourcing the jobs
to India, they state one of the benefits of doing so is that the entry level
India techies earn in the $4000 to $7000 range.

If you want to believe that the salary of a trained IT employee is below the
minimum wage, that is ok with me. The key is if you don't want more jobs to
leave the US, the US companies have to do everything they can to be
competitive with companies from the other industrialized countries, who are
outsourcing their telemarketing jobs.

Today, we are looking at a world economy and no one will be able to close
Pandora's box, no matter how much you and I might object to it any more than
we are not going back to the time when products were individually crafted
instead of being mass produced and 85% of the population lived on family
farms




"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate
info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data.

"Accurate data" being anything that agrees with your assertion and "rumors
and
incorrect data" anything that does not?

Here's something so outdated it is certain to be incorrect. It's from July
2004:



http://www.smihq.org/public/publicat..._outsource.pdf


Check the second paragraph. "Wages for telephone operators in India are
often
less than $1 an hour."

The article also lists a number of legislative steps currently under
consideration to address the outsourcing issue.

Makes interesting reading.

I think you have to understand that if US companies can not be completive
with other industrialized countries our economy will go down the crapper.

Can you imagine a country who said it would not allow mass produced products
because it was detrimental to those craftsman who would be displaced? If
you don't accept the new rules of the world economy, the country, the
companies and their employees will lose in the new world economy.




wrote in message
nk.net...
Ok.. Let us put this into terms you can understand, it is plain to see I
have put it over your head.

1 of these jobs sent over seas that could be held by an unskilled
American.

By the company hiring 2 unskilled Americans, 2 families can be reduced
from
the American Welfare Roles. They can work 24 hours a week and earn around
the same amount as they get on welfare. Earning $6,552 per year.

By the company hiring 2 unskilled persons in America, the persons working
at
the skilled rate of $10.00 per hour for the 24 hour work week, they would
earn $12,480 per year. This would possibly get them off welfare and
foodstamps.

Either way, the company is protected as the people are not "full time"
employees (no benefits), the United States Government gets the taxes, the
Local Governments get the taxes, The Department of Social Security gets an
infusion of money, and, you aren't "paying for some lazy so-and-so to sit
at
home and do nothing while everyone else has to work to support them."

America becomes stronger, the economy is stimulated and it helps all of
America.

No, I don't sound like the people of the past, Progress is a move forward,
not a step back. Outsourcing jobs is not a step forward for our country.
For
us to help the "world economy" we must be able to support our own economy.
We can't support our own if we are building someone else's just to make a
company rich.

If you want to see America Advance, you must start in America. You don't
do
this by sending American Jobs to other countries, you don't do this by
opening the borders to employment from other countries. You do this by
building America then look toward inviting others to join in the
prosperity.

I used to live in El Paso, Texas. They opened the border there for
employees
from Mexico. Yes they are great people, yes they are hard workers. These
employees would come to America every day to work, they would earn 5.25
per
hour (more money in 1 week that they could earn in an entire month in
Mexico), but due to the number of employees working for minimum wage,
skilled Americans were unable to earn a living. They were exempt from all
taxes in the United States with the exception of State Sales Tax.



"John Smith" wrote in message
news:2iVGc.39249$%_6.16397@attbi_s01...
You sound like the people in the 1950's who were waging a war against
automation in the manufacturing sector, or in the 60's and 70's who
were
waging a war against people who were losing jobs to computers, or going
back to the early 20th century, those in the buggy whip factories whose
jobs
were replaced by those in the automotive industry.

The fact of the matter is if US companies do not do what is necessary to
insure that they are not completive with other countries (i.e. European,
Japan, Australia, Canada etc) it will result in substantially more US
jobs
lost than we are currently losing. Is this unfair to those who lose
their
jobs, definitely, but the alternative is substantially worse.

The US or any other country can not ignore the fact the rules have
changed,
today we are in a world economy. Those industries and countries who
adapt
will prosper. Those countries and industries who ignore that fact, will
go
the way of the dodo bird.


wrote in message
nk.net...
Ok.. So it is 2496 hours a year
$3,000 dollars a year.

$1.20 per hour

Figuring a 48 hour work week:
An American just lost $14,198.08 at the federal minimum wage of $5.25
per
hour.

A skilled American just lost $27,040 at $10.00 per hour.

The company saved $11,198.08 or $24,040 for the skilled American, not
including the amount they would have been paying in matching taxes to
the
United States Department of Social Security.

The United States Government looses Federal Income Taxes paid by the
employee, Social Security taxes paid by the employee, matching social
security taxes paid by the company.

The local government looses property taxes.

The state government looses state employment taxes, state sales taxes.

Looks like the Company is the winner in this while the rest of America
suffers.

Put the numbers to it, there is no way outsourcing jobs is good for
the
American people.


"John Smith" wrote in message
newsNUGc.39078$%_6.9986@attbi_s01...
India's Labor Laws, state that the maximum workday is 8 hrs a day
and
a
maximum workweek of 48 hrs. While smaller business using unskilled
labor,
do ignore those laws, the companies that involved in telephone
support
do
not.




wrote in message
nk.net...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in590004.shtml
On any given day in New Delhi and Bombay and Bangalore, the call
goes
out
for new call center recruits as more and more American companies
come
calling. The call center employees earn $3,000 to $5,000 a year,
in
a
nation
where the per capita income is less than $500. The perks include
free
private transport to and from work plus the sheer heaven of an
air-conditioned workplace.

Now John, I know you are going to say that 3 grand a year does not
equal
1
dollar an hour, but you must remember the people there are
reported
to
work
12 hours a day 5 and 6 days a week.

5 days a week is 3120 hours a year
6 days a week is 3744 hours a year

An American, working a 40 hour work week at minimum wage of $5.25
per
hour
would make a gross salary of 10,920

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:hfHGc.36245$XM6.24561@attbi_s53...
Gould,
I am curious where you found the info on paying those in India
$1
an
hour,
can you provide a link?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
You think Dell's going to find people in Texas who
are fluent in English and will work for $5.75 per hour?

$1 per hour is the going rate for English speaking help in
India
or
the
Phillipines.

'Course you can halfway live on $40 a week in some places. In
Texas,
that
40
bucks would fill your gas tank, buy you a six pack, and leave
enough
left
over
for a corn dog. Every week.

Gould,
The minimum wage in Jharkhandndia is Rs 64.72 /hr. and in Delia are 70
Rs.which is more in the $1.50 to $1.75 range. When people quote an average
rate of $1/hr. they are looking at the minimum wage for the undeveloped
areas of India. According to the web sites encouraging outsourcing the jobs
to India, they state one of the benefits of doing so is that the entry level
India techies earn in the $4000 to $7000 range.


Don't confuse wages paid to computer programmers with those paid to boiler room
phone workers.

I would agree with your $4000 plus per year figure for computer programmers.
We have seen a number of programming jobs from the PNW disappear to India, and
in all the local stories and discussions of the pros and cons the salary figure
of $100 per week has been commonly associated with Indian computer programmers.

Guess I'm gettin old. I can clearly remember when $100 a week was a decent
income in the US. Now it takes $2500 a week for most families to have a middle
income lifestyle. No wonder jobs are packing off to India.

Whether you just too stupid, or too rude doesn't matter...posting OT and
feeding the trolls means goodbye forever!

*ploink*

--
-Netsock

"It's just about going fast...that's all..."
http://home.insight.rr.com/cgreen/

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:_GWGc.40735$IQ4.34656@attbi_s02...
I think you have to understand that if US companies can not be completive
with other industrialized countries our economy will go down the crapper.

Can you imagine a country who said it would not allow mass produced
products
because it was detrimental to those craftsman who would be displaced? If
you don't accept the new rules of the world economy, the country, the
companies and their employees will lose in the new world economy.

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:03:11 -0400, P.Fritz wrote:



The value of a job is is based on what the lowest cost a person is willing
to perform it for. Unions and guvmint minimum wages are driving those jobs
out of the country......but liebral sare too blind to see it.

And the value of goods and services is base on what people are willing to
pay for them. The United States has been the market that has driven the
world's economy because of those high paying "unions and guvmint minimum
wages". With those jobs flying to the Third World, perhaps you'll
enlighten us on where the markets for *our* goods will be.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
PS - According to Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering Institute, the
quality of some of India's telephone support in the software field, is
the
best in the world. They state that quality of support personnel is one
of
the key factors for the export of jobs to India.

No doubt. They turn out 15 million college graduates a year in India, and
most
speak
better English than Bubba the HS dropout.

Chuck, you do know that India has two official languages: Hindi and English.
Norway starts teaching English in the second grade.

A couple of decades ago, we were somewhat insulated from outsourcing
because
even though overseas workers were willing to work for almost nothing, they
often didn't have the skills or education to compete with US workers.
Their
training and education improved much faster than their demand for US
dollars.
Oh oh.

It sounds like we got greedy. I know that people in the IT industry got
greedy in the late '80s and they are paying for it now with lower wages now.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

1) Your data does not change the basic idea behind what Gould said. Those
people are still paid a LOT less than comparable workers here.

2) Their comparable purchasing power is not relevant to this discussion.
We're not talking about how bad we feel (or not) about their wages. The
point is that we're stuck with lousy service because American companies
are
unwilling to pay what it takes to provide complete and proper support.


"John Smith" wrote in message
news:zVTGc.37658$MB3.18218@attbi_s04...
Doug,

I think you missed the point of my posts, so often rumors and incorrect
data
is transmitted as fact on the internet. According to the Times of
India,
they are on the verge of increasing the minimum wage from their current
rate
of Rs 64.72/hr (or approx. $1.50/hr). According to those in the
Telephone
Service Industry promoting outsourcing of jobs, the average wage for
telephone service center operators is $2 to $3/hr which equals $4160 -
$6240
annual income, well above the average income in the US, when comparing
the
purchasing power of their income ( $2900 in India is equal to the
average
income in the US.)

So if you want your argument to carry weight it is best to use accurate
info, instead of repeating rumors and incorrect data.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:fbTGc.6642$WX.211@attbi_s51...
Gould,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I was hoping you would have followed
up
on
some of the links yourself to see that they really do not pay call
center
employees $1 / hr.

Chuck has a job. You want a secretary? Hire one.







You will not pay $1000 for a 60 gig disk drive! If you would, then the
manufacturers could build them here. Fully bundled labor cost in Malaysia
is probably in the $3-5 range, was $1.50 in the early 1990's. So, since the
consumer wants the $60 drive retail, the companies are forced to build
overseas. You think that a PR guy for a union pension fund, should make
$100k+? Then you can hire him, but if you could get the same thing for
$20k, would it not be provident to do so for the benefit of the pensioners,
and stockholders?

On 07 Jul 2004 14:58:09 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

PS - According to the CIA World Fact book, for someone in India to earn as
much purchasing power as the average worker in the US, they must earn $2900
per year.

That's $1.45 an hour, assuming the Indian workers do 5 (8-hr) days per week
(not more) and get two weeks of unpaid vacation.

I provide 807 links that establish a typical pay rate of $1 per hour, check a
few to verify, and you fault my research?

Here's a face-saving fig leaf for ya. A cut n paste from one article that says
some wages in India can be as high as $2......
thereby ripping the heart out of my assertion that the Indian call center
employees are working more cheaply than any American can afford to. (Typical
liberal. Bemoans that no American can exist on $40 a week, when the facts are
that a very industrious worker with a little seniority and a willingness to
assume some management responsibility can eventually hope to rise to $80 a
week. Instead of one corn dog a week, the industrious worker will be able to
have a tank of gas, a six pack of beer, and a corn dog *every day*! Woo hoo!
Watch those damn liberals, they refuse to see the upside potential)

************

Near-shore locations offer workers at wages lower than the US' though not as
low as India's. According to Trammell Crow, typical hourly wages in US dollars
are $2.50-$3 in Jamaica and $5-$7 in Canada compared to $7.50-$14 in
the US. In contrast, India's typical hourly wages in US dollars are just $1-$2.

****************



So what exactly is your beef? Are you faulting the companies which are
taking advantage of these low wages? Or should you be faulting the
ignorant Indian (and other) workers who don't know that they should be
making much more?

Remember, no one is holding a gun to the heads of these workers. In
many cases, even thought their wages are lower than what WE are
accustomed to, they are far better than what they were making before.

Improvements in any third world country's standard of living will come
slowly. But it will come. The people have to realize what they have,
and fight to get more for it.

Dave