And......the military has repeatedly said they do not want conscripts

"Butch Davis" wrote in message
nk.net...
So, Gould... what is it that you don't understand about the word
"volunteer". All those recalled vouunteered for service in our military
with an OBLIGATION to serve if needed.

You seem to accuse me of obfuscation? Where, when, how have I
obfuscated.
What did I say that was untrue or confusing. We have an all volunteer
force, Gould. Got it... all volunteer.

Not to try to say that some of those recalled are far from thrilled
about
it. That's not an issue. They were recalled in accordance with the
laws of
this nation. They volunteered to serve for various reasons. Some out
of
patriotisim, others for the opportunity to learn a trade, some for the
adventure. Regardless, they signed up to serve for reasons of their
own.
But, they all signed up to get what they wanted in return for something
else... an obligation.

They didn't get drafted. They volunteered. Got it?

Butch Davis
"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Gould,

Whine, whine, whine. Those called up have a military OBLIGATION to
serve
when called. Those are the rules under which they volunteered.
They
are
needed, hence they are called. Is

Butch,

Obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate.

Those eager to volunteer should do so.
If that includes you, then great.
Be proud of your patriotism and willingness to enforce our foreign
policies.

Can't be any simpler than that.

When people are involuntarily forced to
serve against their will, that's not American. If you want to make it
American,
you install Universal Service for
every young man and woman graduating from high school. They put in two
years
of service either in the military or in one of a very few alternative
choices
that provide legitimate public service. Then it's American because it
is
democratic. Nobody gets a pass for being rich and signing up for
college,
etc.

(Following Universal Service, we give the kids a free ride at trade
school
or a
public college)

The current lack of a draft is making Bush's foreign policy a joke.
The
Bush
apologists say that because we have occupied Iraq, all the other
little
sand
flea countries over there are going to toe the mark so that we don't
occupy
their countries too. With what? We're calling old guys in from
retirement
and putting extended tours afer extended tours on the troops that are
there
now. No way we can take on Jordan, or Saudi Arabia (!), or Iran
with the forces we have while we try to keep peace in Iraq.

Now,of course, if we had the diplomatic skill to build a (real and
meaningful)
coalition of allies large enough to provide more than a couple of
hundred
troops apiece before we.......oh, never mind, hindsight is 20/20.

You guys want to wage war all over hell?
Or be able to make a credible threat that you're ready to wage war all
over
hell?
Want to able to say that we don't need NATO or the UN on our side and
we'll
just do whatever we please, regardless?
Gonna need some troops.

Gonna need a draft.

Gonna need a leader who will put the strategic needs of the country
above
any
concerns about political fallout. Seen one lately? Alas, they're in
very
short
supply.

You can't have a militarist society without
a huge pool of manpower, even in this technological age. Those who
believe
that
militarism is the answer have no choice except to support a draft.

Don't you morons have a better place to debate this ?

You both are such a pain in the a**.


"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in It would be easier to
simply round up the neocons and conscript them
into the war they want so badly to fight.

That's right. Talk is cheap! Let the politicians and CEO's of the big
arms
suppliers be the first to ship overseas.
Next send the rabid supporters of the war.

There is nothing new here. Lots of discharged veterans found the fine print in
their enlistment contract allowed them to be called up for Truman's war.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Gould,

Whine, whine, whine. Those called up have a military OBLIGATION to
serve
when called. Those are the rules under which they volunteered. They
are
needed, hence they are called. Is

Butch,

Obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate.

Those eager to volunteer should do so.
If that includes you, then great.
Be proud of your patriotism and willingness to enforce our foreign
policies.

Can't be any simpler than that.

When people are involuntarily forced to
serve against their will, that's not American. If you want to make it
American,
you install Universal Service for
every young man and woman graduating from high school. They put in two
years
of service either in the military or in one of a very few alternative
choices
that provide legitimate public service. Then it's American because it is
democratic. Nobody gets a pass for being rich and signing up for college,
etc.

(Following Universal Service, we give the kids a free ride at trade school
or a
public college)

The current lack of a draft is making Bush's foreign policy a joke. The
Bush
apologists say that because we have occupied Iraq, all the other little
sand
flea countries over there are going to toe the mark so that we don't
occupy
their countries too. With what? We're calling old guys in from
retirement
and putting extended tours afer extended tours on the troops that are
there
now. No way we can take on Jordan, or Saudi Arabia (!), or Iran
with the forces we have while we try to keep peace in Iraq.

Now,of course, if we had the diplomatic skill to build a (real and
meaningful)
coalition of allies large enough to provide more than a couple of hundred
troops apiece before we.......oh, never mind, hindsight is 20/20.

You guys want to wage war all over hell?
Or be able to make a credible threat that you're ready to wage war all
over
hell?
Want to able to say that we don't need NATO or the UN on our side and
we'll
just do whatever we please, regardless?
Gonna need some troops.

Gonna need a draft.

Gonna need a leader who will put the strategic needs of the country above
any
concerns about political fallout. Seen one lately? Alas, they're in very
short
supply.

You can't have a militarist society without
a huge pool of manpower, even in this technological age. Those who believe
that
militarism is the answer have no choice except to support a draft.

Chuck you are a big pussy.

"P. Fritz" wrote in message
...
And......the military has repeatedly said they do not want conscripts

And they will never have them again.

The left wants the return of the draft, with it they are guaranteed a large
percentage of angry, soldiers in any future conflict.
Plays right into their hands.

And......the military has repeatedly said they do not want conscripts

Then they better do something to attract a sufficient number of genuine
volunteers.
Maybe the answer is pay. What does an E-3, E-4, or E-5 earn today? (Probably
doesn't compare very well to the six figure salaries that we're paying the
private "security contractors" hired by Kellog, Brown and Root at taxpayer's
ultimate expense. Wonder if KBR is having trouble recruiting?)

Calling out the geezer brigade, (some of whom "volunteered" maybe 15-20 plus
years ago and have been inactive for a very long time), isn't "technically" a
draft.....it's just yarding in a bunch of civilians who would really rather be
somewhere else and doing something else. People who have already served.

Maybe the military doesn't want conscripts, but if we are going to be taken
seriously with our implied threat to occupy any countries that give us too much
krap, we're going to need the manpower to pull that off.

Extending tours of duty, calling up the National Guard, activating the
Reserves, and recalling ex-military doesn't create an impression that we've got
any excess troop strength.

Then they better do something to attract a sufficient number of genuine
volunteers.
Maybe the answer is pay. What does an E-3, E-4, or E-5 earn today?

...........Check this out........

http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/20/pf/s...pay/table.html

There ought to be better pay for the troops.
These numbers are shameful. (Maybe if we paid commensurate with the skills
involved and commitment required there would be more volunteers).

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
And......the military has repeatedly said they do not want conscripts

Then they better do something to attract a sufficient number of genuine
volunteers.

The problem I believe, from what I have read......is the retention of
specialized and experienced people.......medical, engineering etc......those
are the ones being recalled. I have not seen any reports of problems
recruiting at the lower ranks.

Maybe the answer is pay. What does an E-3, E-4, or E-5 earn today?

No doubt......but on the other hand.....I would suspect that most of those
highly skilled/experienced people getting recalled received their education
through the military, and are obligated to serve because of it.


(Probably
doesn't compare very well to the six figure salaries that we're paying
the
private "security contractors" hired by Kellog, Brown and Root at
taxpayer's
ultimate expense. Wonder if KBR is having trouble recruiting?)

Calling out the geezer brigade, (some of whom "volunteered" maybe 15-20
plus
years ago and have been inactive for a very long time), isn't
"technically" a
draft.....it's just yarding in a bunch of civilians who would really
rather be
somewhere else and doing something else. People who have already served.

No, it is making them live up to the contracts they signed.



Maybe the military doesn't want conscripts, but if we are going to be
taken
seriously with our implied threat to occupy any countries that give us
too much
krap, we're going to need the manpower to pull that off.

Extending tours of duty, calling up the National Guard, activating the
Reserves, and recalling ex-military doesn't create an impression that
we've got
any excess troop strength.

Gould,

You just don't get it. Probably because you don't know anything about the
subjct at hand. Soldiers who left active duty 15-20 plus years ago no
longer have any reserve obligation. I think it's pretty unkind of you to
refer to seasoned professionals as the "geezer brigade". I don't know your
age but I seriously doubt you could begin to keep up with this 64 year old
geezer.

It's absolutely true that we have no excess troop strength. We are way
undermanned for the missions assigned regardless of what Donald Rumsfeld
says is true. The guy has been a disaster for our military by stating over
and over that we don't need more soldiers. Thank goodness the congress is
going to force the secretary to accept higher manning levels.

For guys like you the military is all about politics. What you fail to
understand is that for a soldier it's all about duty.

Butch Davis

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
snip Calling out the geezer brigade, (some of whom "volunteered" maybe
15-20 plus
years ago and have been inactive for a very long time), isn't
"technically" a
draft.....it's just yarding in a bunch of civilians who would really
rather be
somewhere else and doing something else. People who have already served.

Extending tours of duty, calling up the National Guard, activating the
Reserves, and recalling ex-military doesn't create an impression that
we've got
any excess troop strength.

For guys like you the military is all about politics. What you fail to
understand is that for a soldier it's all about duty.

Butch Davis

Our soldiers are being asked to perform those duties by people who are
politically motivated.

I respect those who serve in the military.
One can do that without respecting the manner in which the military is used or
managed.

At a time when we have adopted an international posture that says, "Get in line
or we'll come and kick your ass" and "Bring it on!" we can't possibly hope to
be taken seriously when occupying Iraq and Afghanistan has taxed our abilities
almost to the breaking point.

If we had to send troops to North Korea, Libya, Iran, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia,
or even to just one or two of those countries, to continue our current
political objectives
where would they come from?

Maybe we can do like the British used to do and hire foreign mercenaries. If we
want US soldiers, we need to create a bunch in short order.

Or, we need to rethink the politics of militarism on a global scale.