So, Gould... what is it that you don't understand about the word
"volunteer". All those recalled vouunteered for service in our military
with an OBLIGATION to serve if needed.

You seem to accuse me of obfuscation? Where, when, how have I obfuscated.
What did I say that was untrue or confusing. We have an all volunteer
force, Gould. Got it... all volunteer.

Not to try to say that some of those recalled are far from thrilled about
it. That's not an issue. They were recalled in accordance with the laws of
this nation. They volunteered to serve for various reasons. Some out of
patriotisim, others for the opportunity to learn a trade, some for the
adventure. Regardless, they signed up to serve for reasons of their own.
But, they all signed up to get what they wanted in return for something
else... an obligation.

They didn't get drafted. They volunteered. Got it?

Butch Davis
"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Gould,

Whine, whine, whine. Those called up have a military OBLIGATION to
serve
when called. Those are the rules under which they volunteered. They
are
needed, hence they are called. Is

Butch,

Obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate.

Those eager to volunteer should do so.
If that includes you, then great.
Be proud of your patriotism and willingness to enforce our foreign
policies.

Can't be any simpler than that.

When people are involuntarily forced to
serve against their will, that's not American. If you want to make it
American,
you install Universal Service for
every young man and woman graduating from high school. They put in two
years
of service either in the military or in one of a very few alternative
choices
that provide legitimate public service. Then it's American because it is
democratic. Nobody gets a pass for being rich and signing up for college,
etc.

(Following Universal Service, we give the kids a free ride at trade school
or a
public college)

The current lack of a draft is making Bush's foreign policy a joke. The
Bush
apologists say that because we have occupied Iraq, all the other little
sand
flea countries over there are going to toe the mark so that we don't
occupy
their countries too. With what? We're calling old guys in from
retirement
and putting extended tours afer extended tours on the troops that are
there
now. No way we can take on Jordan, or Saudi Arabia (!), or Iran
with the forces we have while we try to keep peace in Iraq.

Now,of course, if we had the diplomatic skill to build a (real and
meaningful)
coalition of allies large enough to provide more than a couple of hundred
troops apiece before we.......oh, never mind, hindsight is 20/20.

You guys want to wage war all over hell?
Or be able to make a credible threat that you're ready to wage war all
over
hell?
Want to able to say that we don't need NATO or the UN on our side and
we'll
just do whatever we please, regardless?
Gonna need some troops.

Gonna need a draft.

Gonna need a leader who will put the strategic needs of the country above
any
concerns about political fallout. Seen one lately? Alas, they're in very
short
supply.

You can't have a militarist society without
a huge pool of manpower, even in this technological age. Those who believe
that
militarism is the answer have no choice except to support a draft.

And......the military has repeatedly said they do not want conscripts

"Butch Davis" wrote in message
nk.net...
So, Gould... what is it that you don't understand about the word
"volunteer". All those recalled vouunteered for service in our military
with an OBLIGATION to serve if needed.

You seem to accuse me of obfuscation? Where, when, how have I
obfuscated.
What did I say that was untrue or confusing. We have an all volunteer
force, Gould. Got it... all volunteer.

Not to try to say that some of those recalled are far from thrilled
about
it. That's not an issue. They were recalled in accordance with the
laws of
this nation. They volunteered to serve for various reasons. Some out
of
patriotisim, others for the opportunity to learn a trade, some for the
adventure. Regardless, they signed up to serve for reasons of their
own.
But, they all signed up to get what they wanted in return for something
else... an obligation.

They didn't get drafted. They volunteered. Got it?

Butch Davis
"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Gould,

Whine, whine, whine. Those called up have a military OBLIGATION to
serve
when called. Those are the rules under which they volunteered.
They
are
needed, hence they are called. Is

Butch,

Obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate.

Those eager to volunteer should do so.
If that includes you, then great.
Be proud of your patriotism and willingness to enforce our foreign
policies.

Can't be any simpler than that.

When people are involuntarily forced to
serve against their will, that's not American. If you want to make it
American,
you install Universal Service for
every young man and woman graduating from high school. They put in two
years
of service either in the military or in one of a very few alternative
choices
that provide legitimate public service. Then it's American because it
is
democratic. Nobody gets a pass for being rich and signing up for
college,
etc.

(Following Universal Service, we give the kids a free ride at trade
school
or a
public college)

The current lack of a draft is making Bush's foreign policy a joke.
The
Bush
apologists say that because we have occupied Iraq, all the other
little
sand
flea countries over there are going to toe the mark so that we don't
occupy
their countries too. With what? We're calling old guys in from
retirement
and putting extended tours afer extended tours on the troops that are
there
now. No way we can take on Jordan, or Saudi Arabia (!), or Iran
with the forces we have while we try to keep peace in Iraq.

Now,of course, if we had the diplomatic skill to build a (real and
meaningful)
coalition of allies large enough to provide more than a couple of
hundred
troops apiece before we.......oh, never mind, hindsight is 20/20.

You guys want to wage war all over hell?
Or be able to make a credible threat that you're ready to wage war all
over
hell?
Want to able to say that we don't need NATO or the UN on our side and
we'll
just do whatever we please, regardless?
Gonna need some troops.

Gonna need a draft.

Gonna need a leader who will put the strategic needs of the country
above
any
concerns about political fallout. Seen one lately? Alas, they're in
very
short
supply.

You can't have a militarist society without
a huge pool of manpower, even in this technological age. Those who
believe
that
militarism is the answer have no choice except to support a draft.

"P. Fritz" wrote in message
...
And......the military has repeatedly said they do not want conscripts

And they will never have them again.

The left wants the return of the draft, with it they are guaranteed a large
percentage of angry, soldiers in any future conflict.
Plays right into their hands.

And......the military has repeatedly said they do not want conscripts

Then they better do something to attract a sufficient number of genuine
volunteers.
Maybe the answer is pay. What does an E-3, E-4, or E-5 earn today? (Probably
doesn't compare very well to the six figure salaries that we're paying the
private "security contractors" hired by Kellog, Brown and Root at taxpayer's
ultimate expense. Wonder if KBR is having trouble recruiting?)

Calling out the geezer brigade, (some of whom "volunteered" maybe 15-20 plus
years ago and have been inactive for a very long time), isn't "technically" a
draft.....it's just yarding in a bunch of civilians who would really rather be
somewhere else and doing something else. People who have already served.

Maybe the military doesn't want conscripts, but if we are going to be taken
seriously with our implied threat to occupy any countries that give us too much
krap, we're going to need the manpower to pull that off.

Extending tours of duty, calling up the National Guard, activating the
Reserves, and recalling ex-military doesn't create an impression that we've got
any excess troop strength.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Gould,

Whine, whine, whine. Those called up have a military OBLIGATION to
serve
when called. Those are the rules under which they volunteered. They
are
needed, hence they are called. Is

Butch,

Obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate.

Those eager to volunteer should do so.
If that includes you, then great.
Be proud of your patriotism and willingness to enforce our foreign
policies.

Can't be any simpler than that.

When people are involuntarily forced to
serve against their will, that's not American. If you want to make it
American,
you install Universal Service for
every young man and woman graduating from high school. They put in two
years
of service either in the military or in one of a very few alternative
choices
that provide legitimate public service. Then it's American because it is
democratic. Nobody gets a pass for being rich and signing up for college,
etc.

(Following Universal Service, we give the kids a free ride at trade school
or a
public college)

The current lack of a draft is making Bush's foreign policy a joke. The
Bush
apologists say that because we have occupied Iraq, all the other little
sand
flea countries over there are going to toe the mark so that we don't
occupy
their countries too. With what? We're calling old guys in from
retirement
and putting extended tours afer extended tours on the troops that are
there
now. No way we can take on Jordan, or Saudi Arabia (!), or Iran
with the forces we have while we try to keep peace in Iraq.

Now,of course, if we had the diplomatic skill to build a (real and
meaningful)
coalition of allies large enough to provide more than a couple of hundred
troops apiece before we.......oh, never mind, hindsight is 20/20.

You guys want to wage war all over hell?
Or be able to make a credible threat that you're ready to wage war all
over
hell?
Want to able to say that we don't need NATO or the UN on our side and
we'll
just do whatever we please, regardless?
Gonna need some troops.

Gonna need a draft.

Gonna need a leader who will put the strategic needs of the country above
any
concerns about political fallout. Seen one lately? Alas, they're in very
short
supply.

You can't have a militarist society without
a huge pool of manpower, even in this technological age. Those who believe
that
militarism is the answer have no choice except to support a draft.

Chuck you are a big pussy.

(Gould 0738) wrote in message ...
Hopefully, the majority of those called will be Bush supporters. Let
them share in the joys of Bush's nasty little war.


That's awful. Nobody should be drafted, Bush supporter or not.

If this weren't an election year, we'd be seeing a draft. Instead, we're
calling back
40 and 50-year old guys who have already been honorably discharged, may even
have a military pension, and who have certainly earned the right to live the
rest of their lives without excessive government intrusion. Businesses,
careers, families, etc all go on hold.

Not so fast - nobody is being recalled that doesn't have an obligation
to be available. While I am not entirely familiar with retired
reserves as I didn't retire, people in the individual ready reserve
have not been "honorably discharged" from military service if they
still have a commitment. You can be "honarably discharged" from
active duty or regular reserves and still have commitment to the
individual ready reserve (commonly called inactive reserve).

You dont get your *final* discharge until all of your service is
complete. I have four DD214s (discharge papers) as I was discharged
from active duty in 1988, went to the air guard, was put back on
active duty in 1991, was discharged from active duty in 1991 back to
the air guard, then discharged from the guard in 1994. But I still
had IRR on my obligation. It was over a year later before I got my
final honorable discharge saying I was done.


Talk about giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Don't even say "lberals
do....."
When we make a loud public announcement about having to send the press gang to
round up the toothless old grey hairs to continue the war in Iraq, that has to
encourage the hell out of the enemy. It sounds like we're running out of
manpower.

"[T]oothless old grey hairs"?

I would bet (though I have not tried to verify this) that most of the
IRR is younger than me. Under 40. A lot are probably in their late
20s.



More of the same non-logic from our government. We can increase discretionary
government spending by 30% in 3 1/2 years *and* have a huge tax cut.
We can occupy a large country, say that doing so presents a credible threat to
other bad actors that we stand ready to invade their countries too, *and* cut
military benefits while avoiding mandatory enlistments (and apparently
scrambling to plug the holes in the front line with any available bodies).

If we hope to kill every Muslim on the planet, as many suggest, we are going to
need a lot more people than we have.
(I would say, eliminate the terrorist individuals instead of the "terrorist
race/religion", and we can do that without
expanding the war or imposing universal service).