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"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... You can debate the intentions of the proposal all you want, but the fact is fast-food jobs are *not* considered manufacturing jobs. You're as dishonest as Harry, just smoother in your delivery. Interesting. So, do you then feel that the document titled "President's Economic Report" and that stated fast food jobs were a form of manufacturing was some sort of liberal hoax? Yes. Do you deny such a document exists? A document in which the president states that "fast food jobs were a form of manufacturing"? Yes I do deny it. Do you deny that it stated fast food jobs were to be considered "manufacturing"? Yes. What portion of my statement, "including fast food workers in the manufacturing sector skews the statistics" do you find dishonest? The part where you said they "were" included. President Bush directly stated that his administration intended to include burger flippers and sandwich wrappers in the totals for "manufacturing jobs". He, nor anyone from his administration has ever said this. From the CBS link you provided- "The report does not recommend that burger-flippers be counted alongside factory workers." Instead, it concludes that the fuzziness of the manufacturing definition is problematic, because policies — like, for example, a tax credit for manufacturers — may miss their target if the definition is overly broad or narrow. Has he changed his mind? How can he change his mind on something he never said? If not, we're back to my original "swerve" that those "mfg jobs" aren't included yet they will be in the future. Yes, we're back to *your* lie. |
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"Joe" wrote in message ... I said we can debate the intentions of the *proposal* all you want, and I will post the exact language for just that. Ok, here is the exact text from the report from page 73-74 as referenced in your CBS link. (link to full report http://www.gpoaccess.gov/eop/index.html ) You tell me were it recommends that fast food jobs should be classified as manufacturing jobs. Box 2-2: What Is Manufacturing? The value of the output of the U.S. manufacturing sector as defined in official U.S. statistics is larger than the economies of all but a handful of other countries. The definition of a manufactured product, however, is not straightforward. When a fast-food restaurant sells a hamburger, for example, is it providing a "service" or is it combining inputs to "manufacture" a product? The official definition of manufacturing comes from the Census Bureau’s North American Industry Classification System, or NAICS. NAICS classifies all business establishments in the United States into categories based on how their output is produced. One such category is "manufacturing." NAICS classifies an establishment as in the manufacturing sector if it is "engaged in the mechanical, physical, or chemical transformation of materials, substances, or components into new products." This definition is somewhat unspecific, as the Census Bureau has recognized: "The boundaries of manufacturing and other sectors… can be somewhat blurry." Some (perhaps surprising) examples of manufacturers listed by the Bureau of Labor Statistics a bakeries, candy stores, custom tailors, milk bottling and pasteurizing, fresh fish packaging (oyster shucking, fish filleting), and tire retreading. Sometimes, seemingly subtle differences can determine whether an industry is classified as manufacturing. For example, mixing water and concentrate to produce soft drinks is classified as manufacturing. However, if that activity is performed at a snack bar, it is considered a service. The distinction between non-manufacturing and manufacturing industries may seem somewhat arbitrary but it can play an important role in developing policy and assessing its effects. Suppose it was decided to offer tax relief to manufacturing firms. Because the manufacturing category is not well defined, firms would have an incentive to characterize themselves as in manufacturing. Administering the tax relief could be difficult, and the tax relief may not extend to the firms for which it was enacted. For policy makers, the blurriness of the definition of manufacturing means that policy aimed at manufacturing may inadvertently distort production and have unintended and harmful results. Whenever possible, policy making should not be based upon this type of arbitrary statistical delineation. |
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Joe wrote:
Yes, we're back to *your* lie. Lie? I asume that you are prepared to make the same "liar" charge against Gregory Mankiw, (Chairman of the President's Economic Advisors) who has publicly stated that switching burger flipping to a manufacturing job is an "important consideratin" of the Bush economic recovery plan? ******************* According to The New York Times, the idea of reclassifying fast-food restaurants as manufacturers is buried in 417 pages of statistics included in the new report. But Gregory Mankiw, chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, is certainly not shying away from this plan. In a speech last week to economists in Washington, Mankiw said that classifying hamburger flippers as manufacturers is "an important consideration" for the administration's economic policy. (From the Macomb Daily, 2-29-2004) ****************************************** |
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"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Joe wrote: Yes, we're back to *your* lie. Lie? I asume that you are prepared to make the same "liar" charge against Gregory Mankiw, (Chairman of the President's Economic Advisors) who has publicly stated that switching burger flipping to a manufacturing job is an "important consideratin" of the Bush economic recovery plan? ******************* According to The New York Times, the idea of reclassifying fast-food restaurants as manufacturers is buried in 417 pages of statistics included in the new report. But Gregory Mankiw, chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, is certainly not shying away from this plan. In a speech last week to economists in Washington, Mankiw said that classifying hamburger flippers as manufacturers is "an important consideration" for the administration's economic policy. (From the Macomb Daily, 2-29-2004) ****************************************** Why not go back and address each (snipped) question that I answered, in order, and then I'll answer this one? |
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 00:48:23 -0400, thunder wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 02:30:59 +0000, Gould 0738 wrote: Regardless, we'll have more jobs at the end of Bush's term than at any point during the Clinton years. And good thing, too. I have seen from several sources that our economy needs to generate 150,000 net new jobs per month just to stay even with the growing population of working age adults. What is often overlooked, is that, due to low American birth rates, that growing population of working adults is dependent on immigration. I was surprised to learn that nearly all of the net increase in the Northeast's labor force was due to immigration. As it is becoming increasingly clear that our economic growth depends on immigration, I'm wondering just how much post 9/11s tightening of our borders has had on our low job numbers. http://www.dallasfed.org/research/sw.../swe0306a.html As an aside, I noticed Chart 2 looked a little like the Red/Blue States map. When placed against the following map, the comparison is quite clear. http://www.massinc.org/commonwealth/..._red_blue.html An enlightening post, thunder, thank you. John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! |
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NOYB wrote:
I didn't read the Economic Report...only the commentary of liberal pundits. I'll read the report and give you my perspective... "which I'm sure will be different from that of the liberal pundits". Then there is no reason to read it if you have already made up your mind. I think we all agree to a limited degree that "burger flipping" and related jobs, shouldn't be included. -- _______m___õ¿~___m_________________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away". --George Carlin-- |
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Why not go back and address each (snipped) question that I answered, in
order, and then I'll answer this one? Because you are the party that has abandoned discourse in favor of name calling. You want to holler "liar", then it should be easy enough for you to post the list of occupations included in the "manufacturing jobs" portion of the report and establish that Bush did not follow through with his own, announced, intention and "important consideration" of including fast food workers in the mfg job category. I don't have such a list either. I was simply relying on the President's recent assertions, (in the President's Economic Report) that burger flippers belong in the manufacturing category. Guess that's what happens when you believe the president. Why is it so many of you guys over there think that hollering "liar" or "traitor" when you hear something you disagree with is some sort of substitute for reasoned discussion? I hope that Bush did not put the burger flippers in the mfg category. All I know for a fact is that he said earlier this year that the burger flippers *should* be included, members of his administration have since defended that position, and then lo an behold, a few months before the election, manufacturing jobs enjoy this whalloping increase. If someone will produce evidence that Bush changed his mind about burger flipping being a "manufacturing job" or post a list of the occupations included in the "manufacturing jobs" category in the report NOYB mentioned, I would be willing to concede an error in assuming that Bush followed through with his announced plan. In the mean time, aside from playground-level insults and unsupported denials from Bush supporters, we have no evidence that the fast food workers were *not* factored in to Mickey up the numbers. |
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John H wrote:
Good news is really bad news, isn't it? Umm, no. My point was that the good noews is unfortunately accompanied by lots more bad. ... Has there ever been a time when no engineer was looking for work? Oh yes. The class before mine was 85% recruited before graduation and 100% employed in the field. AFAIK that was the peak. In the boom years of the middle 1990s we could not hire anybody for a salary the company could afford. I'm sure that somehwere, some engineer was looking for a job... but unless he was a complete idiot he found one quick. ... If the employment rate were 1%, would no engineers be out of work. The employment rate is better than it was throughout the 90's, yet there is this persistent whine. Maybe that's because the unemployment rate is not a true reflection of how many people are out of work... by which I mean the work they are trained & qualified for, not pumping burgers... It is an economic verity: when the demand for capital rises, interest rates rise. When the demand for goods & services rise, the demand for capital to create the jobs will rise. So, as long as interest rates are dead on the floor, so is the economy. Of course, the current picture is better IMHO than double digit inflation, but then, I currently have a job. If I was flipping burgers, I'd see it differently. DSK |
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DSK wrote:
John H wrote: Good news is really bad news, isn't it? Umm, no. My point was that the good noews is unfortunately accompanied by lots more bad. ... Has there ever been a time when no engineer was looking for work? Oh yes. The class before mine was 85% recruited before graduation and 100% employed in the field. AFAIK that was the peak. In the boom years of the middle 1990s we could not hire anybody for a salary the company could afford. I'm sure that somehwere, some engineer was looking for a job... but unless he was a complete idiot he found one quick. ... If the employment rate were 1%, would no engineers be out of work. The employment rate is better than it was throughout the 90's, yet there is this persistent whine. Maybe that's because the unemployment rate is not a true reflection of how many people are out of work... by which I mean the work they are trained & qualified for, not pumping burgers... It is an economic verity: when the demand for capital rises, interest rates rise. When the demand for goods & services rise, the demand for capital to create the jobs will rise. So, as long as interest rates are dead on the floor, so is the economy. Of course, the current picture is better IMHO than double digit inflation, but then, I currently have a job. If I was flipping burgers, I'd see it differently. DSK Herring prefers the simple-minded answers that raise no questions...it's easier for guys like him when they can believe in their political leader and not worry about the millions on the fringes... |
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 13:01:26 -0400, DSK wrote:
John H wrote: Good news is really bad news, isn't it? Umm, no. My point was that the good noews is unfortunately accompanied by lots more bad. ... Has there ever been a time when no engineer was looking for work? Oh yes. The class before mine was 85% recruited before graduation and 100% employed in the field. AFAIK that was the peak. In the boom years of the middle 1990s we could not hire anybody for a salary the company could afford. I'm sure that somehwere, some engineer was looking for a job... but unless he was a complete idiot he found one quick. ... If the employment rate were 1%, would no engineers be out of work. The employment rate is better than it was throughout the 90's, yet there is this persistent whine. Maybe that's because the unemployment rate is not a true reflection of how many people are out of work... by which I mean the work they are trained & qualified for, not pumping burgers... It is an economic verity: when the demand for capital rises, interest rates rise. When the demand for goods & services rise, the demand for capital to create the jobs will rise. So, as long as interest rates are dead on the floor, so is the economy. Of course, the current picture is better IMHO than double digit inflation, but then, I currently have a job. If I was flipping burgers, I'd see it differently. DSK So the unemployment rate was zero at the time you graduated? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! |
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John H wrote:
So the unemployment rate was zero at the time you graduated? Did I say that? No, here is what I said: "The class before mine was 85% recruited before graduation and 100% employed in the field. AFAIK that was the peak." This was speaking of undergrad engineers, specificially BSME grads from a well regarded university. I wouldn't be surprised if the engineering class at Wottsamatta U. did not fare so well. You are supposedly in the education field, John, is this discussion about economics *that* far above your head, or are you truly blinded to any fact which does not support Bush/Cheney's propaganda? Meanwhile, what do you have to say about the implications of interest rates versus the supposedly booming economy? DSK |
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DSK wrote:
John H wrote: So the unemployment rate was zero at the time you graduated? Did I say that? No, here is what I said: "The class before mine was 85% recruited before graduation and 100% employed in the field. AFAIK that was the peak." This was speaking of undergrad engineers, specificially BSME grads from a well regarded university. I wouldn't be surprised if the engineering class at Wottsamatta U. did not fare so well. You are supposedly in the education field, John, is this discussion about economics *that* far above your head, or are you truly blinded to any fact which does not support Bush/Cheney's propaganda? Meanwhile, what do you have to say about the implications of interest rates versus the supposedly booming economy? DSK Herring is a substitute teacher. Period. |
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So the unemployment rate was zero at the time you graduated?
John H Economists have differing opinions about the definition of "full employment", but a commonly considered figure is about 4.5% A certain number of people will be "between jobs" for brief periods of time, even in a robust economy. Clinton just about achieved that during his last few years in office, (although Clinton, Bush, and no other president is really responsible for the economy or employment- all they can do is influence it a bit). Bush is closing in on that figure, but there are some fundamental differences that don't reflect in the raw numbers. 1) The number of discouraged workers is greater. Under some common methods of calculating unemployment, once a worker exhausts any unemployment insurance that person is no longer considered unemployed. More people have been forced into "self employment", performing jobs as independent contractors rather than as an employee with salary and benefits. The newly self employed will never, statistically, be unemployed again. In our state, a recent net increase in the number of jobs available resulted in a statistical increase in the unemployment rate. The state economist theorized that the improved prospects inspired thousands of people who had previously given up trying to find a job to reenter the labor market, increasing the oversupply of workers. 2) Many of the jobs being created are third-world opportunities in a first-world climate. At least in our region, we're not seeing the former forest of "help wanted" signs on every crap-job prison up and down the fast food pike. There are a few appearing here and there, but the mini-wage, no benefit, no set schedule, no Saturdays off, take-my-crap-and-smile-and say "yes boss" jobs are generally not going begging, like they should be. http://www.northwestharvest.org/minwage.htm 3)The middle class continues to disappear. Good news for a few of the former middle classers, they have moved up to moderate affluence. Not as good news for more of the former middle classers; many of their job skills are now obsolete or the economics of global free trade have made it more profitable to do accounting, customer service, software development, and other computer intensive jobs from former British colonies. "We speak English here, and $400 a month is a good wage for a worker with a university degree." 4) The misery index is up. In my state, wtih a population of about 6 million people, almost 10% of the population requires assistance from a neighborhood food bank one or more times during the year. 5) We have completely sacrificed capital returns to pump up the economy and allow the jobs picture to appear reasonably healthy. During previous years, we were able to offer a reasonable return on capital investment *and* have close to full employment. Retirees with a few hundred thousand in savings (who were able to squeak by on 5-6% CD rates) are spending their principal to meet monthly bills with CD rates often under 2%. The Fed Funds rate at about 1%? This chicken will come home to roost soon, and with a $7 trillion national debt to refinance at regular intervals it's scary to consider what even a 3-4% rate will do to the cost of our debt service. The current boom in housing and big ticket purchases is a freak child of "free money", rather than a bellweather of a robust economy. When rates start back up, (the day after the election?), the housing and big ticket bubble will get very sick, very quickly. The bottom line, however, is that neither President Bush nor President Kerry will have all that much control over the unemployment numbers. There is a great "leveling" going on in the world at large, and the countries and economies that enjoyed the most in the past will be forced down toward the middle as other countries and economies that have been at the bottom begin to rise. 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) |
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"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Excellent advice! People working in the health industry and the service industry will always be in demand. |
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Gould 0738 wrote:
6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Several times a year, I get asked about building trades jobs for high school graduates. I always suggest getting into a solid union apprenticeship program that leads to a journeyman's card in one of the skilled trades...like plumbing or electrical. Union electricians in the SF area are doing being than $70 an hour in the package, and have more work than they can handle, and that will increase as California toughens its standards for licensed tradesworkers. |
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"NOYB" wrote in message link.net... "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Excellent advice! People working in the health industry and the service industry will always be in demand. There is already a shortage of skilled craftsmen in the construction industry. Finish carpenters are scarce, as are plumbers and electricians. |
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Excellent advice! People working in the health industry and the service
industry will always be in demand. The sick and the broken will always be with us. |
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On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:05:18 -0400, DSK wrote:
John H wrote: So the unemployment rate was zero at the time you graduated? Did I say that? No, here is what I said: "The class before mine was 85% recruited before graduation and 100% employed in the field. AFAIK that was the peak." This was speaking of undergrad engineers, specificially BSME grads from a well regarded university. I wouldn't be surprised if the engineering class at Wottsamatta U. did not fare so well. You are supposedly in the education field, John, is this discussion about economics *that* far above your head, or are you truly blinded to any fact which does not support Bush/Cheney's propaganda? Meanwhile, what do you have to say about the implications of interest rates versus the supposedly booming economy? DSK I am thrilled that all your fellow graduates found work. Now, what was the unemployment rate then? Was it a lot lower than 5.6%? I refinanced my home one year ago at 5.125% (with no points). My daughter locked in at 6.3% last month. Today the rates are 6.5% (all with no points). I would consider that an upward trend, wouldn't you? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! |
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"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Gould 0738 wrote: 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Several times a year, I get asked about building trades jobs for high school graduates. I always suggest getting into a solid union apprenticeship program that leads to a journeyman's card in one of the skilled trades...like plumbing or electrical. Union electricians in the SF area are doing being than $70 an hour in the package, and have more work than they can handle, and that will increase as California toughens its standards for licensed tradesworkers. If I were an electrician, plumber, or even a semi-skilled worker like a general handyman, I'd be self-employed. Why work for someone else? |
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On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:52:59 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: Gould 0738 wrote: 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Several times a year, I get asked about building trades jobs for high school graduates. I always suggest getting into a solid union apprenticeship program that leads to a journeyman's card in one of the skilled trades...like plumbing or electrical. Union electricians in the SF area are doing being than $70 an hour in the package, and have more work than they can handle, and that will increase as California toughens its standards for licensed tradesworkers. If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! |
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John H wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:52:59 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Gould 0738 wrote: 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Several times a year, I get asked about building trades jobs for high school graduates. I always suggest getting into a solid union apprenticeship program that leads to a journeyman's card in one of the skilled trades...like plumbing or electrical. Union electricians in the SF area are doing being than $70 an hour in the package, and have more work than they can handle, and that will increase as California toughens its standards for licensed tradesworkers. If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! I'm sure you won't get this, but during much of the Bush recession, the stock market was tanked, too. Investors looking for a decent return plowed kazillions of dollars into commercial construction projects in many markets..they had to do something with the money they yanked out of the market...and a lot of it found its way into large-scale commercial construction. |
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"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Excellent advice! People working in the health industry and the service industry will always be in demand. The sick and the broken will always be with us. Well actually, the only true recession proof industries are grocery stores and funeral parlors. You can get by being sick or haviing the leaky faucet....you will always have to eat, and death is inevitable. |
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If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can
find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H 'Cause when life is the ****z you gotta flush more often?.... :-) |
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On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:39:39 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: John H wrote: On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:52:59 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Gould 0738 wrote: 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Several times a year, I get asked about building trades jobs for high school graduates. I always suggest getting into a solid union apprenticeship program that leads to a journeyman's card in one of the skilled trades...like plumbing or electrical. Union electricians in the SF area are doing being than $70 an hour in the package, and have more work than they can handle, and that will increase as California toughens its standards for licensed tradesworkers. If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! I'm sure you won't get this, but during much of the Bush recession, the stock market was tanked, too. Investors looking for a decent return plowed kazillions of dollars into commercial construction projects in many markets..they had to do something with the money they yanked out of the market...and a lot of it found its way into large-scale commercial construction. Like what? Office buildings for non-existent occupants? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! |
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|
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"John H" wrote in message ... On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:39:39 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: John H wrote: On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:52:59 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Gould 0738 wrote: 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Several times a year, I get asked about building trades jobs for high school graduates. I always suggest getting into a solid union apprenticeship program that leads to a journeyman's card in one of the skilled trades...like plumbing or electrical. Union electricians in the SF area are doing being than $70 an hour in the package, and have more work than they can handle, and that will increase as California toughens its standards for licensed tradesworkers. If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! I'm sure you won't get this, but during much of the Bush recession, the stock market was tanked, too. Investors looking for a decent return plowed kazillions of dollars into commercial construction projects in many markets..they had to do something with the money they yanked out of the market...and a lot of it found its way into large-scale commercial construction. Like what? Office buildings for non-existent occupants? Hope you are wearing hip waders......it's getting piled high was again. John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! |
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"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... John H wrote: On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:52:59 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Gould 0738 wrote: 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Several times a year, I get asked about building trades jobs for high school graduates. I always suggest getting into a solid union apprenticeship program that leads to a journeyman's card in one of the skilled trades...like plumbing or electrical. Union electricians in the SF area are doing being than $70 an hour in the package, and have more work than they can handle, and that will increase as California toughens its standards for licensed tradesworkers. If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! I'm sure you won't get this, but during much of the Bush recession, the stock market was tanked, too. Investors looking for a decent return plowed kazillions of dollars into commercial construction projects in many markets..they had to do something with the money they yanked out of the market...and a lot of it found its way into large-scale commercial construction. Although I'd hesitate to call it the "Bush recession" (since all economic indicators showed a downward trend beginning in mid-2000), I'll agree with the basic premise of your argument...and then expand upon it just a bit. People also took advantage of the low interest rates, and the tax incentives and rebates from the Bush tax cut to invest in capital. |
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John H wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:39:39 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: John H wrote: On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:52:59 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Gould 0738 wrote: 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Several times a year, I get asked about building trades jobs for high school graduates. I always suggest getting into a solid union apprenticeship program that leads to a journeyman's card in one of the skilled trades...like plumbing or electrical. Union electricians in the SF area are doing being than $70 an hour in the package, and have more work than they can handle, and that will increase as California toughens its standards for licensed tradesworkers. If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! I'm sure you won't get this, but during much of the Bush recession, the stock market was tanked, too. Investors looking for a decent return plowed kazillions of dollars into commercial construction projects in many markets..they had to do something with the money they yanked out of the market...and a lot of it found its way into large-scale commercial construction. Like what? Office buildings for non-existent occupants? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! Let's make it easy on you, eh? Been in downtown DC the last few years? Been to Chinatown, or the area from 1st and Mass to just past the Arch? Been around the arena where the pro basketball teams play? Been on K Street? |
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"John H" wrote in message ... On 07 Jun 2004 15:59:45 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote: If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H 'Cause when life is the ****z you gotta flush more often?.... :-) I wasn't talking about plumbers. But, if the situation is as bad as many say, then it would seem like "Porta Jons" would be the business to be in. Hell, I can't even afford a plumber and my wife still has a job! I had a plumber to my house for a "$49 minimum" house call. (As a dentist, I charge $45 for an exam...and I have a lot higher overhead thanks to CDC and OSHA regulations). Anyhow...he said I needed a new toilet. $250-300 for the toilet and $250 to install it. $250 to install a toilet?!?!? It takes a 1/2 hour, and the cost of supplies is less than $10. I paid him the $49 and showed him the door. I bought a snake, removed the toilet, snaked the drain, and my old toilet works fine now. Cost? Less than $30 for one wax rim and a Wal-Mart toilet snake...and $49 paid to one crooked plumber to misdiagnose my problem. |
OT--Terrific employment news again
NOYB wrote:
"John H" wrote in message ... On 07 Jun 2004 15:59:45 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote: If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H 'Cause when life is the ****z you gotta flush more often?.... :-) I wasn't talking about plumbers. But, if the situation is as bad as many say, then it would seem like "Porta Jons" would be the business to be in. Hell, I can't even afford a plumber and my wife still has a job! I had a plumber to my house for a "$49 minimum" house call. (As a dentist, I charge $45 for an exam...and I have a lot higher overhead thanks to CDC and OSHA regulations). Anyhow...he said I needed a new toilet. $250-300 for the toilet and $250 to install it. $250 to install a toilet?!?!? It takes a 1/2 hour, and the cost of supplies is less than $10. I paid him the $49 and showed him the door. I bought a snake, removed the toilet, snaked the drain, and my old toilet works fine now. Damn. I'll have to modify my opinion of you. I thought for sure part of your problem was that you were full of .... But, if your old toilet is working...well... |
OT--Terrific employment news again
"NOYB" wrote in message k.net... "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... John H wrote: On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:52:59 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Gould 0738 wrote: 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Several times a year, I get asked about building trades jobs for high school graduates. I always suggest getting into a solid union apprenticeship program that leads to a journeyman's card in one of the skilled trades...like plumbing or electrical. Union electricians in the SF area are doing being than $70 an hour in the package, and have more work than they can handle, and that will increase as California toughens its standards for licensed tradesworkers. If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! I'm sure you won't get this, but during much of the Bush recession, the stock market was tanked, too. Investors looking for a decent return plowed kazillions of dollars into commercial construction projects in many markets..they had to do something with the money they yanked out of the market...and a lot of it found its way into large-scale commercial construction. Although I'd hesitate to call it the "Bush recession" (since all economic indicators showed a downward trend beginning in mid-2000), I'll agree with the basic premise of your argument...and then expand upon it just a bit. People also took advantage of the low interest rates, and the tax incentives and rebates from the Bush tax cut to invest in capital. Actually, the construction industry lags behind the rest of the economy......it takes upwards of 2-3 years a fter conception of a project to actual start of construction.......much of it due to guvmint (over) regulation. By the time you get through the approval process, you have so much money invested, and the approvals have an expiration date, that it often makes more sense to continue with the construction and let the building sit, recovering the money once the econmy picks up, rather tha letting all the money already invested go to waste. |
OT--Terrific employment news again
'Cause when life is the ****z you gotta flush more often?.... :-)
I wasn't talking about plumbers. Well then, do you have any idea just how many electricians it's gonna take to wire up that "light at the end of the tunnel"? |
OT--Terrific employment news again
I bought a snake, removed the toilet, snaked the drain, and my old toilet
works fine now. Cost? Less than $30 for one wax rim and a Wal-Mart toilet snake... See there? All that expensive dental school paid off. You gained access to the cavity, cleaned out the rotten debris, and sealed it all back up nice and proper. :-) You could have learned all that as an apprentice plumber, billed more for the first half hour, and had lower overhead to boot. |
OT--Terrific employment news again
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... I bought a snake, removed the toilet, snaked the drain, and my old toilet works fine now. Cost? Less than $30 for one wax rim and a Wal-Mart toilet snake... See there? All that expensive dental school paid off. You gained access to the cavity, cleaned out the rotten debris, and sealed it all back up nice and proper. :-) It was more analogous to a root canal...and I hate doing root canals. You could have learned all that as an apprentice plumber, billed more for the first half hour, and had lower overhead to boot. No kidding. But my borrowing power at the bank is a lot better than a plumber's. ;-) |
OT--Terrific employment news again
You are supposedly in the education field, John, is this discussion
about economics *that* far above your head, or are you truly blinded to any fact which does not support Bush/Cheney's propaganda? Meanwhile, what do you have to say about the implications of interest rates versus the supposedly booming economy? DSK John H wrote: I am thrilled that all your fellow graduates found work. Now, what was the unemployment rate then? Let's just say that 1- you have a job (or at least claim to) and I have a job, so the verifiable employment rate between us is 100%. But there are lots of others who aren't so lucky. Of course, this is a transparent attempt on your part to cheerlead for Bush/Cheney by pointing out HOW LOW THE (manipulated) UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS (yay!!). But that dog won't hunt. The difference between the 1996 unemployment rate (lots of jobs at a high salary) and 2004 unemployment rates (few if any jobs, and those at low salary) is obvious. I refinanced my home one year ago at 5.125% (with no points). My daughter locked in at 6.3% last month. Today the rates are 6.5% (all with no points). I would consider that an upward trend, wouldn't you? Hmmm... your daughter is getting ripped off (most likely by your fellow Republicans). http://www.nfsn.com/library/prime.htm The prime rate hasn't budged upward, and the fed has dropped the fund rates, and bond rates (paid by businesses seeking to expand) are at historic lows. It should be obvious to even you and NOBBY that there is a difference between consumers borrowing at profit to lenders, and businesses borrowing to increase production for increased profits. OTOH the fact that somebody is paying slightly higher interest rates indicates some increase in demand... unless it's a local monopoly (banks around here aren't charging that much AFAIK). DSK |
OT--Terrific employment news again
Harry Krause wrote in message ...
DSK wrote: John H wrote: So the unemployment rate was zero at the time you graduated? Did I say that? No, here is what I said: "The class before mine was 85% recruited before graduation and 100% employed in the field. AFAIK that was the peak." This was speaking of undergrad engineers, specificially BSME grads from a well regarded university. I wouldn't be surprised if the engineering class at Wottsamatta U. did not fare so well. You are supposedly in the education field, John, is this discussion about economics *that* far above your head, or are you truly blinded to any fact which does not support Bush/Cheney's propaganda? Meanwhile, what do you have to say about the implications of interest rates versus the supposedly booming economy? DSK Herring is a substitute teacher. Period. Well, that and person with a penchant for child pornography.... |
OT--Terrific employment news again
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 12:22:39 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: John H wrote: On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:39:39 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: John H wrote: On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:52:59 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Gould 0738 wrote: 6) There is now an oversupply of college educated workers. Send your kids to trade school. When the toilet clogs up, nobody is going to call a plumber from India. :-) Several times a year, I get asked about building trades jobs for high school graduates. I always suggest getting into a solid union apprenticeship program that leads to a journeyman's card in one of the skilled trades...like plumbing or electrical. Union electricians in the SF area are doing being than $70 an hour in the package, and have more work than they can handle, and that will increase as California toughens its standards for licensed tradesworkers. If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! I'm sure you won't get this, but during much of the Bush recession, the stock market was tanked, too. Investors looking for a decent return plowed kazillions of dollars into commercial construction projects in many markets..they had to do something with the money they yanked out of the market...and a lot of it found its way into large-scale commercial construction. Like what? Office buildings for non-existent occupants? John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! Let's make it easy on you, eh? Been in downtown DC the last few years? Been to Chinatown, or the area from 1st and Mass to just past the Arch? Been around the arena where the pro basketball teams play? Been on K Street? Nope. Haven't lost anything down there. Get good chinese right close to home. John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! |
OT--Terrific employment news again
"DSK" wrote in message . .. You are supposedly in the education field, John, is this discussion about economics *that* far above your head, or are you truly blinded to any fact which does not support Bush/Cheney's propaganda? Meanwhile, what do you have to say about the implications of interest rates versus the supposedly booming economy? DSK John H wrote: I am thrilled that all your fellow graduates found work. Now, what was the unemployment rate then? Let's just say that 1- you have a job (or at least claim to) and I have a job, so the verifiable employment rate between us is 100%. But there are lots of others who aren't so lucky. Of course, this is a transparent attempt on your part to cheerlead for Bush/Cheney by pointing out HOW LOW THE (manipulated) UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS (yay!!). But that dog won't hunt. The difference between the 1996 unemployment rate (lots of jobs at a high salary) and 2004 unemployment rates (few if any jobs, and those at low salary) is obvious. I refinanced my home one year ago at 5.125% (with no points). My daughter locked in at 6.3% last month. Today the rates are 6.5% (all with no points). I would consider that an upward trend, wouldn't you? Hmmm... your daughter is getting ripped off (most likely by your fellow Republicans). http://www.nfsn.com/library/prime.htm The prime rate hasn't budged upward, and the fed has dropped the fund rates, and bond rates (paid by businesses seeking to expand) are at historic lows. It should be obvious to even you and NOBBY that there is a difference between consumers borrowing at profit to lenders, and businesses borrowing to increase production for increased profits. OTOH the fact that somebody is paying slightly higher interest rates indicates some increase in demand... unless it's a local monopoly (banks around here aren't charging that much AFAIK). Where's "around here"? Here's a look at the rates in the top 10 markets: http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/mtg...p?prodtype=mtg |
OT--Terrific employment news again
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:25:15 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:
"John H" wrote in message .. . On 07 Jun 2004 15:59:45 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote: If the economy is at rock bottom, unemployment is sky high, and no one can find work because Bush has personally sent all the jobs, including manufacturing, to India, then how can "...more work than they can handle..." be true? John H 'Cause when life is the ****z you gotta flush more often?.... :-) I wasn't talking about plumbers. But, if the situation is as bad as many say, then it would seem like "Porta Jons" would be the business to be in. Hell, I can't even afford a plumber and my wife still has a job! I had a plumber to my house for a "$49 minimum" house call. (As a dentist, I charge $45 for an exam...and I have a lot higher overhead thanks to CDC and OSHA regulations). Anyhow...he said I needed a new toilet. $250-300 for the toilet and $250 to install it. $250 to install a toilet?!?!? It takes a 1/2 hour, and the cost of supplies is less than $10. I paid him the $49 and showed him the door. I bought a snake, removed the toilet, snaked the drain, and my old toilet works fine now. Cost? Less than $30 for one wax rim and a Wal-Mart toilet snake...and $49 paid to one crooked plumber to misdiagnose my problem. Who was the plumber? New toilets can be had at Home Depot for around $50-75. John H On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! |
OT--bank mortgage rates
NOYB wrote:
Where's "around here"? Here's a look at the rates in the top 10 markets: http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/mtg...p?prodtype=mtg Interesting. Thanks for the link. Please note that the only rates quoted with zero points were 1-year ARMs (a sucker bet IMHO), if John H's daughter got a 15 year mortgage then she's doing just OK, if a 30 (the way to go IMHO based on historical interest rates) then she's getting ripped off. BTW none of those places are near me... or for that matter, none of them are in Florida which I'd assume to be a major market... BTW2 if you want to know something about real economics (ie in the world outide Bush/Cheney Fantasyland) try reading some of this http://www.strom.clemson.edu/becker/...cs_primer.html The title ain't so hot but the material is right on. DSK |
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