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Damn Girl Scouts
Weekend before last, I was paddling on my favourite local river. I was on
the home stretch and paddling pretty hard when a gaggle of scouts came up the river. You can tell they were scouts because they all had on yellow pfds (the local rental places use blue and orange) and because most of them didn't have a ****ing clue what they were doing. As I'm passing one canoe load, they suddenly swerve across the river so they were on a direct collision course. They didn't make any attempt to stop or steer away or anything - didn't put a paddle in the water in fact, nor did they say a work until after they'd crunched into my kayak, and then it wasn't "sorry" or "look out", but "oh?" like I'd surprised them by suddenly appearing under the bow of their canoe. I attempted to steer out of their way, unsuccessfully, and then I tried to catch the front of their canoe with my hand to keep it from crunching into me. Big mistake. I tore the tendon sheath in my wrist, and I'm going to be in this cast from wrist to armpit for another 5 weeks at least. Don't scout leaders believe in giving lessons? They're a menace. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ please excuse my typing, but my whole left arm is in a cast. and i don't mean _the king and i_. |
Hey Paul, do you understand what the term karma is all
about. Karma can be translated to I tore the tendon sheath in my wrist, and I'm going to be in this cast from wrist to armpit for another 5 weeks at least. |
John wrote in message ... Hey Paul, do you understand what the term karma is all about. Karma can be translated to I tore the tendon sheath in my wrist, and I'm going to be in this cast from wrist to armpit for another 5 weeks at least. I'll second that motion! |
Paul Tomblin wrote:
Weekend before last, I was paddling on my favourite local river. snip Don't scout leaders believe in giving lessons? They're a menace. Yeah, maybe a menace and it's a real shame you injured yourself but on the other hand kids on the water, that's a *good* thing, right ? -- Ken Fortenberry |
In a previous article, Ken Fortenberry said:
Paul Tomblin wrote: Weekend before last, I was paddling on my favourite local river. snip Don't scout leaders believe in giving lessons? They're a menace. Yeah, maybe a menace and it's a real shame you injured yourself but on the other hand kids on the water, that's a *good* thing, right ? Only if somebody teaches them to not be a menace to themselves and others first. 30 years ago when I was taken canoeing by my YMCA day camp, they spend some time in a secluded bay teaching us strokes and how to handle the canoes before being sent into a popular paddling area. These morons didn't even TRY to steer or stop. They didn't even say "sorry". -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ please excuse my typing, but my whole left arm is in a cast. and i don't mean _the king and i_. |
In a previous article, John said:
Hey Paul, do you understand what the term karma is all about. Karma can be translated to Evidently better than you do. Or are you seriously suggesting that you have examined my past incarnation and you know why the cycle of fates caused a canoe full of idiot girls to render me unable to paddle or fly and barely able to maintain my job at this particular point in this incarnation? -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ please excuse my typing, but my whole left arm is in a cast. and i don't mean _the king and i_. |
I see from the response of others as well as me you are not
getting much sympathy for you injuries. I suspect your hostile attitude is the reason. As for your incarnations, I'll bet you will get more chances to live a life full of kindness compassion and understanding since you may have missed that lesson in your past lives. Good luck to you, I hope you heal well and quickly both physically and emotionally |
In article , John wrote:
I see from the response of others as well as me you are not getting much sympathy for you injuries. I suspect your hostile attitude is the reason. As for your incarnations, I'll bet you will get more chances to live a life full of kindness compassion and understanding since you may have missed that lesson in your past lives. Good luck to you, I hope you heal well and quickly both physically and emotionally Well, I've done my share of dumb moves on the river while learning, but I've always at least said "sorry." I'd be mighty ****ed off too if I had to miss the whole fall paddling season due to a wrist to shoulder cast just because a boatload of kids weren't properly instructed on river safety. River safety is paramount for all of us on the river--for our own sake as well as those around us. I don't know what class of water Paul and the scouts were on, but it could be life and death depending on the river features. I'm pretty sure karma didn't enter into this incident at all. At least the scouts were wearing PFDs--I've seen worse. Deb R. |
Only if somebody teaches them to not be a menace to themselves and others
first. 30 years ago when I was taken canoeing by my YMCA day camp, they spend some time in a secluded bay teaching us strokes and how to handle the canoes before being sent into a popular paddling area. These morons didn't even TRY to steer or stop. They didn't even say "sorry". Ok, you were in a kayak and couldn't avoid a boat load of little girls...and you are ****ed. Get over it |
Ok, you were in a kayak and couldn't avoid a boat load of little girls...and you are ****ed. Get over it I would have to concur. A canoe with neither paddle in the water is a bit like a log, something I would expect on a river. In your defense, I have tought Guides canoeing on ponds. ( never moving water ). It's not like the Scouts or Guides to leave themselves open to litigation from parents if there is any incompitance. ( Perhaps something you may want to look at ) . There are other groups here that have access to canoes and equipnent. Junior Forest Wardens in my community have 20 boats 18 open canoes and 2 sea kayaks as well as one club specific canoe and two rec kayaks. The Boy Scouts have some boats and a trailer; church groups , Cadets and a community next to ours have trailers and boats. You are not getting much sympathy from this group. It is a little like the kid on the Simpsons that goes " Ha Ha! " If there is an up side you will be fine. You could have ripped up your shoulder. That just refuses to get better. Good luck and get well soon. I would lighten up on the kids though. Was their master aware they hit you? Alex |
The first time you were on moving water could you control your boat
perfectly or have you never in your paddling history run into anyone? Other than the color of their life jackets being yellow, did anyone actually say they were from the girl scouts? I don't remember you saying that you actually heard that from them. If these were boys scouts would you have been just as offended? You seemed to really be dogging them out because they were girls. C. |
Courtney, don't you get it? Paul lives his life as an
angry man. He'll find a way to be angry no matter what the scenario. You on the otherhand have your entire future ahead of you. If you turn all events into discrimination against women and girls you will turn out like Paul. You are not a victim but you don't believe your not. The first time you were on moving water could you control your boat perfectly or have you never in your paddling history run into anyone? Other than the color of their life jackets being yellow, did anyone actually say they were from the girl scouts? I don't remember you saying that you actually heard that from them. If these were boys scouts would you have been just as offended? You seemed to really be dogging them out because they were girls. C. .. |
In a previous article, "Courtney" said:
The first time you were on moving water could you control your boat perfectly or have you never in your paddling history run into anyone? As I said earlier, the first time I was on the water, I was given a few minutes of instruction on basic canoe control before I was allowed to go somewhere where I could be a menace to myself and others. This flotilla of doom had both girls and boys in it, and most of them didn't know what the hell they were doing. I think it's irresponsible of leaders to set kids loose without basic instruction. If that had been my kids (and if I hadn't given them instruction already) and I saw them lurching along like that, I would have pulled them out of whatever program they were in and found another program with competent leadership. If these were boys scouts would you have been just as offended? You seemed to really be dogging them out because they were girls. What the hell difference does their gender make? I identified them as girls because that's what they were, not because that makes any difference in the idiocy of sending kids out with no instruction. I'd like to know where you got this idea I was "dogging them out because they were girls". I think you're revealing your own predjudices. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ please excuse my typing, but my whole left arm is in a cast. and i don't mean _the king and i_. |
In a previous article, John said:
angry man. He'll find a way to be angry no matter what the scenario. You on the otherhand have your entire future *plonk* Moron. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ please excuse my typing, but my whole left arm is in a cast. and i don't mean _the king and i_. |
Courtney wrote:
The first time you were on moving water could you control your boat perfectly or have you never in your paddling history run into anyone? Other than the color of their life jackets being yellow, did anyone actually say they were from the girl scouts? I don't remember you saying that you actually heard that from them. If these were boys scouts would you have been just as offended? You seemed to really be dogging them out because they were girls. C. I'd like to know this too. If the girls were really part of GSUSA, their leaders were not following the basic safety and training guidelines of the organization. I do canoe instruction for my GSUSA council, and we always start with flat water. Only girls 7th grade and up can do any moving water, and that is only if they have already trained on flat water. My guess is that it was a church group or Y group. Did you see any adults? Pam |
Paul Tomblin wrote:
: In a previous article, "Courtney" said: :The first time you were on moving water could you control your boat :perfectly or have you never in your paddling history run into anyone? : As I said earlier, the first time I was on the water, I was given a few : minutes of instruction on basic canoe control before I was allowed to go : somewhere where I could be a menace to myself and others. This flotilla : of doom had both girls and boys in it, and most of them didn't know what : the hell they were doing. I think it's irresponsible of leaders to set : kids loose without basic instruction. If that had been my kids (and if I : hadn't given them instruction already) and I saw them lurching along like : that, I would have pulled them out of whatever program they were in and : found another program with competent leadership. Well... first let me say that I'm a boy scout leader... nether the boy scouts nor the girl scouts allow youth members of the opposing genders (there are no boys in girl scouts and there are no girls in boy scouts). That said... we've done canoe and kayak trips (we built our own kayaks... took 3 months in the church basement for each kid to complete... I had Marge Cline and a few other instructors come out and do a class in a local lake before we started using the kayaks we built... but, before we were allowed to do any of that... myself and another adult went thru Safe Swim and Safety Afloat training... and three of us huffed thru a lifeguard class (800 yard swim was tiring), and became CPR certified... Scouts have lots of rules including requiring training for adults, safety certifications and training for the scouts. We did a trip across the State of Illinois... hiking, biking and paddling... the boys did enough miles to earn hiking (75 miles) and cycling (150 miles) merit badges... canoeing merit badge doesn't have distance requirments so they all earned that at summer camp. Since the youth group wasn't paying attention to you but you saw them, did you announce yourself or announce that you were passing? Even on bikes or walking, if someone isn't looking at you and you are passing them, it's polite to say "Passing on your right" (or left) or just say "On your right" (or left) so they aren't startled when a object starts to pass... When kids are goofing around, they are in a world all their own... think back to when you were a kid... a polite word from the outside world usually gets their attention back in order... Here's a pic of our kayaks... cost about $25 per boy... the skin is that plastic coocooning material they use to winterize sailboats and I got it for $4 per boat from a local boat shop. Had each kid save 12*1 gallon milk jugs with lids for flotation.. tied to internal wood frame... http://www.chicagopaddling.org/lilyak.jpg -- John Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org (A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
Lance LaFrinier wrote:
: Only if somebody teaches them to not be a menace to themselves and others : first. : : 30 years ago when I was taken canoeing by my YMCA day camp, they spend : some time in a secluded bay teaching us strokes and how to handle the : canoes before being sent into a popular paddling area. These morons : didn't even TRY to steer or stop. They didn't even say "sorry". : Ok, you were in a kayak and couldn't avoid a boat load of little girls...and : you are ****ed. Get over it Three girls in a aluminum canoe ran him down? -- John Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org (A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
"Three girls in a aluminum canoe ran him down?"
Not only that, but "when a gaggle of scouts came up the river" - they apparently did so while paddling upriver. Those must have been some menacing Girl Scouts, able to attain upriver so fast that the collision was unavoidable. |
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In a previous article, Chicago Paddling-Fishing said:
Paul Tomblin wrote: : kids loose without basic instruction. If that had been my kids (and if I : hadn't given them instruction already) and I saw them lurching along like : that, I would have pulled them out of whatever program they were in and : found another program with competent leadership. Well... first let me say that I'm a boy scout leader... nether the boy scouts nor the girl scouts allow youth members of the opposing genders (there are no boys in girl scouts and there are no girls in boy scouts). Ok, I apologize for characterizing them as "Scouts". In rural Canada, where I'm originally from, we do have mixed gender Scout organizations. And some of them are very badly run because they take whoever they can get to volunteer. Since the youth group wasn't paying attention to you but you saw them, did you announce yourself or announce that you were passing? Even on bikes or We were going in opposite directions - they were coming upriver, I was coming down. They were on one side of the river, I was on the other until they lurched across. This picture http://xcski.com/gallery/kayaking/DSCN2133 shows the river a few weeks previously, a different group (like I said in my original post, the local kayak rental place uses blue PFDs, the one in the orange is very definitely this group's leader), and about 500 metres upstream from where I was injured. But you can see that it's wide enough that one should be able to squeeze by. Here's a pic of our kayaks... cost about $25 per boy... the skin is that plastic coocooning material they use to winterize sailboats and I got it for $4 per boat from a local boat shop. Had each kid save 12*1 gallon milk jugs with lids for flotation.. tied to internal wood frame... http://www.chicagopaddling.org/lilyak.jpg Cool stuff. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ please excuse my typing, but my whole left arm is in a cast. and i don't mean _the king and i_. |
Personally I really don't care. I think this is all pretty comical.
C. John wrote in message ... Courtney, don't you get it? Paul lives his life as an angry man. He'll find a way to be angry no matter what the scenario. You on the otherhand have your entire future ahead of you. If you turn all events into discrimination against women and girls you will turn out like Paul. You are not a victim but you don't believe your not. The first time you were on moving water could you control your boat perfectly or have you never in your paddling history run into anyone? Other than the color of their life jackets being yellow, did anyone actually say they were from the girl scouts? I don't remember you saying that you actually heard that from them. If these were boys scouts would you have been just as offended? You seemed to really be dogging them out because they were girls. C. . |
On 23-Sep-2005, (Paul Tomblin) wrote: And some of them are very badly run because they take whoever they can get to volunteer. Which pretty much explains why they don't necessarily teach the kids good paddling skills. I've seen some pretty scary things being taught to scouts on whitewater. However, I've also seen a lot of incompetent WW paddlers who are adults and _couldn't_ learn anything. Unless they establish enforcable standards for WW paddling, you have to deal with the others on the river. Mike |
Ahhh.... there's the problem, excuse me, my allergies started acting up when
I viewed the pic, my allergy to "flat water" that is.....don't paddle anything less than class III.....and no little scouts to contend with. "Paul Tomblin" wrote in message ... In a previous article, Chicago Paddling-Fishing said: Paul Tomblin wrote: : kids loose without basic instruction. If that had been my kids (and if I : hadn't given them instruction already) and I saw them lurching along like : that, I would have pulled them out of whatever program they were in and : found another program with competent leadership. Well... first let me say that I'm a boy scout leader... nether the boy scouts nor the girl scouts allow youth members of the opposing genders (there are no boys in girl scouts and there are no girls in boy scouts). Ok, I apologize for characterizing them as "Scouts". In rural Canada, where I'm originally from, we do have mixed gender Scout organizations. And some of them are very badly run because they take whoever they can get to volunteer. Since the youth group wasn't paying attention to you but you saw them, did you announce yourself or announce that you were passing? Even on bikes or We were going in opposite directions - they were coming upriver, I was coming down. They were on one side of the river, I was on the other until they lurched across. This picture http://xcski.com/gallery/kayaking/DSCN2133 shows the river a few weeks previously, a different group (like I said in my original post, the local kayak rental place uses blue PFDs, the one in the orange is very definitely this group's leader), and about 500 metres upstream from where I was injured. But you can see that it's wide enough that one should be able to squeeze by. Here's a pic of our kayaks... cost about $25 per boy... the skin is that plastic coocooning material they use to winterize sailboats and I got it for $4 per boat from a local boat shop. Had each kid save 12*1 gallon milk jugs with lids for flotation.. tied to internal wood frame... http://www.chicagopaddling.org/lilyak.jpg Cool stuff. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ please excuse my typing, but my whole left arm is in a cast. and i don't mean _the king and i_. |
They could have "settled" the dispute then and there........4 boxes of
choco-mint! "Kegs" wrote in message ... writes: "Three girls in a aluminum canoe ran him down?" Not only that, but "when a gaggle of scouts came up the river" - they apparently did so while paddling upriver. Those must have been some menacing Girl Scouts, able to attain upriver so fast that the collision was unavoidable. They were probably trying to sell him some cookies ;) -- James jamesk[at]homeric[dot]co[dot]uk We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty - DNA (HHGTTG) |
In a previous article, "Grip" said:
Ahhh.... there's the problem, excuse me, my allergies started acting up when I viewed the pic, my allergy to "flat water" that is.....don't paddle anything less than class III.....and no little scouts to contend with. I bet your boat is a lot more maneuverable than mine too. I'd love to do some whitewater again, but right now I'm paddling placid rivers to try and recapture some of the joy I had canoeing and to get some fitness back, since thanks to 25 years of ever increasing joint pain I can't cross country ski, orienteer, backpack, canoe, mountain bike or run any more. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ please excuse my typing, but my whole left arm is in a cast. and i don't mean _the king and i_. |
25 years of ever increasing joint pain I can't cross country ski, orienteer, backpack, canoe, mountain bike or run
any more. says Paul Poor Paul, now I get it...Paul needs sympathy |
Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, said: Ok, you were in a kayak and couldn't avoid a boat load of little girls...and you are ****ed. Get over it I would have to concur. A canoe with neither paddle in the water is a bit like a log, something I would expect on a river. Considering how little control they had, they were moving pretty fast. But they were doing that "everybody paddle on this side, now everybody paddle on the other side" zig zag thing. They didn't take their paddles out of the water until they were on a collision course with me. That's known, to us grizzled ol' highly-experienced old-school boaters, as "the financial method of paddling". They go from bank to bank, and leave you broke. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Winston-Salem, NC, USA .. . . Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll . . .. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net . . . . . . . . . .. cell: (301) 775-0471 .. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters .. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu . . . . . . . . . . . office: (336) 713-5077 ================================================== ==================== |
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In a previous article, "Oci-One Kanubi" said:
Paul Tomblin wrote: Considering how little control they had, they were moving pretty fast. But they were doing that "everybody paddle on this side, now everybody paddle on the other side" zig zag thing. They didn't take their paddles out of the water until they were on a collision course with me. That's known, to us grizzled ol' highly-experienced old-school boaters, as "the financial method of paddling". They go from bank to bank, and leave you broke. Oh, that's hilarious. Thanks. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ please excuse my typing, but my whole left arm is in a cast. and i don't mean _the king and i_. |
I'm just kiddin' Paul, any paddlin is good paddlin, I actually support my
club's flat water side by attending a couple of their trips each year and pretend I'm enjoying it! Those trips are as much as social event as anything else and I'll admit can be fun. Heck, I even treat "rafters" with respect! Sorry to hear about the aches and pains, I know a bunch of guys who became butt boaters cause their knees would not hold up to OC-1ing anymore. "Paul Tomblin" wrote in message ... In a previous article, "Grip" said: Ahhh.... there's the problem, excuse me, my allergies started acting up when I viewed the pic, my allergy to "flat water" that is.....don't paddle anything less than class III.....and no little scouts to contend with. I bet your boat is a lot more maneuverable than mine too. I'd love to do some whitewater again, but right now I'm paddling placid rivers to try and recapture some of the joy I had canoeing and to get some fitness back, since thanks to 25 years of ever increasing joint pain I can't cross country ski, orienteer, backpack, canoe, mountain bike or run any more. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ please excuse my typing, but my whole left arm is in a cast. and i don't mean _the king and i_. |
The worst thing is that I was due to fly up to see my kids the following weekend, but I can't fly with this stupid cast. By the time it comes off, I'm going to have to do an Instrument Proficiency Check with an instructor before I fly again. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ Hope no hot air balloonist ever accidentally invades what you deem your airspace. I can just imagine you addressing the judge, via video link from the spinal injuries unit. 'The balloon sorta leapt out at me sideways, a collision was unavoidable' . |
"Lance LaFrinier" wrote in message
news:LGqYe.356165$x96.55754@attbi_s72... Only if somebody teaches them to not be a menace to themselves and others first. 30 years ago when I was taken canoeing by my YMCA day camp, they spend some time in a secluded bay teaching us strokes and how to handle the canoes before being sent into a popular paddling area. These morons didn't even TRY to steer or stop. They didn't even say "sorry". Ok, you were in a kayak and couldn't avoid a boat load of little girls...and you are ****ed. Get over it FINALLY the question I'm sitting here pondering!!! OK enough pondering . . . . moving on! |
Paul Tomblin wrote:
: In a previous article, Chicago Paddling-Fishing said: :Paul Tomblin wrote: :: kids loose without basic instruction. If that had been my kids (and if I :: hadn't given them instruction already) and I saw them lurching along like :: that, I would have pulled them out of whatever program they were in and :: found another program with competent leadership. : :Well... first let me say that I'm a boy scout leader... nether the boy scouts :nor the girl scouts allow youth members of the opposing genders (there are no :boys in girl scouts and there are no girls in boy scouts). : Ok, I apologize for characterizing them as "Scouts". In rural Canada, : where I'm originally from, we do have mixed gender Scout organizations. : And some of them are very badly run because they take whoever they can get : to volunteer. Which brings up the point of what you do with your spare time... maybe offer to help a youth group near you as a way of self preservation? :Since the youth group wasn't paying attention to you but you saw them, did :you announce yourself or announce that you were passing? Even on bikes or : We were going in opposite directions - they were coming upriver, I was : coming down. They were on one side of the river, I was on the other until : they lurched across. : This picture : http://xcski.com/gallery/kayaking/DSCN2133 : shows the river a few weeks previously, a different group (like I said in : my original post, the local kayak rental place uses blue PFDs, the one in : the orange is very definitely this group's leader), and about 500 metres : upstream from where I was injured. But you can see that it's wide enough : that one should be able to squeeze by. So, your saying you couldn't avoid the gaggle(whatever that means?) of girls in a canoe that was coming head on at you... perhaps it's years of being involved in scouts, or that one day early on when i was following a scout on bike and he fell off his bike for no reason, wiping me out... that I learned long ago to not pass closely... while there was no reason I could see for the kid in front of me to fall (not that I could see), I did't blame anyone else except me that I got wiped out because you just never know what a kid is going to do next... it's supposed to be adults who watch out for them... not the other way around... :Here's a pic of our kayaks... cost about $25 per boy... the skin is that :plastic coocooning material they use to winterize sailboats and I got it :for $4 per boat from a local boat shop. Had each kid save 12*1 gallon :milk jugs with lids for flotation.. tied to internal wood frame... : :http://www.chicagopaddling.org/lilyak.jpg : Cool stuff. I'd encourage anyone to try it... the basic design came from Roy Underhills book "Build a log cabin and everything to go in it". We may have gotten deals on some of the materials... pretty sure they gave us a good deal on the plastic, but it would still be a pretty inexpensive project for someone to do as a individual... it got a bit dicy as a group just because it required so much cleanup effort each week when sawing in the church basement to make the ribs... -- John Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org (A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
Paul Tomblin wrote: : In a previous article, Chicago Paddling-Fishing said: :Paul Tomblin wrote: :: kids loose without basic instruction. If that had been my kids (and if I :: hadn't given them instruction already) and I saw them lurching along like :: that, I would have pulled them out of whatever program they were in and :: found another program with competent leadership. If things happened as indicated, I would agree with you completely. The "leader" of the trip should be held accountable for ensuring everyone has the proper basic instruction and safety training and they adhere to it. :Well... first let me say that I'm a boy scout leader... nether the boy scouts :nor the girl scouts allow youth members of the opposing genders (there are no :boys in girl scouts and there are no girls in boy scouts). I'd just like to say this isn't accurate. The BSA has a program called Venturers (formerly Explorers) that is a co-ed scout crew (instead of troop). There are plenty of them across the country and both genders can reach the top level of scouting, which I think is Ranger for the Venturer program. I believe only boys can get an Eagle Scout ranking, however, through the Venturing program. While I generally agree that Scouts are abysmally equipped and trained, Paul's reaction seems a bit extreme. I don't know what happened exactly, but from his description of events, it seems to me Paul should have been able to do something to call attention to himself and avoid the collision altogether. Letting them know he was there would have been the first thing to do, whether they were "on the other bank" or not, even if it's just to be friendly. Then they would have at least acknowleged his presence and been more likely to TRY to avoid him. They may not have been successful, but odds are they would have done something. Karma or not, I don't know. I know nothing of Paul except the few posts I've read in this thread. It definitely could have been handled differently, though for better or worse is anyone's guess. Which brings up the point of what you do with your spare time... maybe offer to help a youth group near you as a way of self preservation? This is a very good suggestion. It helps keep you up to date with how kids are (even just a small subculture of them) and will also keep you thinking and acting young. It sucks sometimes, because, well they're teenagers and teenagers suck, but generally speaking it's a great experience. And what can be better than molding someone in your own image? Teaching them the things you think are important the way you find it important for them to learn. :Since the youth group wasn't paying attention to you but you saw them, did :you announce yourself or announce that you were passing? Even on bikes or : We were going in opposite directions - they were coming upriver, I was : coming down. They were on one side of the river, I was on the other until : they lurched across. This doesn't make sense to me. Typically I find kayaks to be far more maneuverable than canoes so it seems to me, if you had been paying attention, Paul, you should have been able to avoid them, whether or not they "lurched" across. Like you said, there was more than enough space to squeeze by, if that picture is an accurate depiction of the area. So, your saying you couldn't avoid the gaggle(whatever that means?) of girls in a canoe that was coming head on at you... perhaps it's years of being involved in scouts, or that one day early on when i was following a scout on bike and he fell off his bike for no reason, wiping me out... that I learned long ago to not pass closely... while there was no reason I could see for the kid in front of me to fall (not that I could see), I did't blame anyone else except me that I got wiped out because you just never know what a kid is going to do next... it's supposed to be adults who watch out for them... not the other way around... Well said. |
bkr wrote:
: Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote: : Paul Tomblin wrote: : : In a previous article, Chicago Paddling-Fishing said: : :Paul Tomblin wrote: : :: kids loose without basic instruction. If that had been my kids (and if I : :: hadn't given them instruction already) and I saw them lurching along like : :: that, I would have pulled them out of whatever program they were in and : :: found another program with competent leadership. : If things happened as indicated, I would agree with you completely. The : "leader" of the trip should be held accountable for ensuring everyone : has the proper basic instruction and safety training and they adhere to it. : :Well... first let me say that I'm a boy scout leader... nether the boy scouts : :nor the girl scouts allow youth members of the opposing genders (there are no : :boys in girl scouts and there are no girls in boy scouts). : I'd just like to say this isn't accurate. The BSA has a program called : Venturers (formerly Explorers) that is a co-ed scout crew (instead of : troop). There are plenty of them across the country and both genders : can reach the top level of scouting, which I think is Ranger for the : Venturer program. I believe only boys can get an Eagle Scout ranking, : however, through the Venturing program. Well, you can't just be in a Venture Crew and earn Eagle, you have to be registered as a Boy Scout, at least initially (there are certain rules that apply, hence you can't just register as new Venture and earn Eagle). There are few Venture programs around here, primarily because the starting age is high and it's hard to get young adults to join a organization when they are in high school. A boy can be registered in both Boy Scouts and Venture at the same time. Due to the age requirments, Venture Crews are generally small... our church has one but it only has 5 members, all over 17 years old (you can't be a youth member in Boy Scouts past 18, but you can be a youth member in Venture to 20) Explorers still exists, but was moved into the BSA's Learning for Life program because they are primarily sponsored by Police/Fire stations. I would expect that if your encountering a "gaggle" sized group on a river that cannot control a canoe, they probably aren't 14 to 20 year old kids (the age range of a venture crew), but closer to the 11 year old range of Boy or Girl Scouts... plus, most kids don't join Venture new, they join from a boy or girl scout troop where they have probably already been to summer camp a few years and have been canoeing before. Encountering a Venture Crew on a trail or river would be more like meeting a small group of adults (young adults)... I could see however encountering a "gaggle" of Boy or Girl Scouts on a river, except for the mixed sex part. One Boy Scout Troop nearby went to summer camp with 81 boys and 10 leaders... That would be a gaggle... (they returned with 81 too as far as I know) : While I generally agree that Scouts are abysmally equipped and trained, : Paul's reaction seems a bit extreme. I don't know what happened : exactly, but from his description of events, it seems to me Paul should : have been able to do something to call attention to himself and avoid : the collision altogether. Letting them know he was there would have : been the first thing to do, whether they were "on the other bank" or : not, even if it's just to be friendly. Then they would have at least : acknowleged his presence and been more likely to TRY to avoid him. They : may not have been successful, but odds are they would have done something. : Karma or not, I don't know. I know nothing of Paul except the few posts : I've read in this thread. It definitely could have been handled : differently, though for better or worse is anyone's guess. I think it varies... as I said, we had Marge Cline (an ACA Paddler of the Century ;-), her son and another ACA instructor come out and work with our scouts. I don't think we were special or different; there's a lot of requirments to meet before getting your permit approved to do a water activity and training is one of them... You don't just go anywhere, you have to apply for permits to go and those permits require certain training and certifications depending on where you are going... : Which brings up the point of what you do with your spare time... maybe offer : to help a youth group near you as a way of self preservation? : This is a very good suggestion. It helps keep you up to date with how : kids are (even just a small subculture of them) and will also keep you : thinking and acting young. It sucks sometimes, because, well they're : teenagers and teenagers suck, but generally speaking it's a great : experience. And what can be better than molding someone in your own : image? Teaching them the things you think are important the way you : find it important for them to learn. Well, I'd disagree with your teenager comments... they are teenagers and they come in different shapes, sizes and personalities... : :Since the youth group wasn't paying attention to you but you saw them, did : :you announce yourself or announce that you were passing? Even on bikes or : : : We were going in opposite directions - they were coming upriver, I was : : coming down. They were on one side of the river, I was on the other until : : they lurched across. : This doesn't make sense to me. Typically I find kayaks to be far more : maneuverable than canoes so it seems to me, if you had been paying : attention, Paul, you should have been able to avoid them, whether or not : they "lurched" across. Like you said, there was more than enough space : to squeeze by, if that picture is an accurate depiction of the area. Here we agree... but accidents happen... like i said, when that scout fell off his bike in front of me for what I thought was no reason... I had all i could do to not hit him (I hit his bike) and fall without breaking anything. No damage, except I'll never forget the feeling... (helmet was on... that's a permit requirment, but I was more worried about breaking a arm...) -- John Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org (A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote: : bkr wrote: : I'd just like to say this isn't accurate. The BSA has a program called : Venturers (formerly Explorers) that is a co-ed scout crew (instead of : troop). There are plenty of them across the country and both genders : can reach the top level of scouting, which I think is Ranger for the : Venturer program. I believe only boys can get an Eagle Scout ranking, : however, through the Venturing program. Well, you can't just be in a Venture Crew and earn Eagle, you have to be registered as a Boy Scout, at least initially (there are certain rules that apply, hence you can't just register as new Venture and earn Eagle). To be in a Venture Crew you have to be "registered as a Boy Scout" as far as I'm aware. The crew I'm involved with has that as a policy and it was my impression that was a BSA policy. There are few Venture programs around here, primarily because the starting age is high and it's hard to get young adults to join a organization when they are in high school. A boy can be registered in both Boy Scouts and Venture at the same time. Due to the age requirments, Venture Crews are generally small... our church has one but it only has 5 members, all over 17 years old (you can't be a youth member in Boy Scouts past 18, but you can be a youth member in Venture to 20) The youngest member we have is 14 and that is the cutoff. Like I said, I don't know exactly what is required for the boys to get an Eagle rank through the program, just that the girls can't. Our crew generally has between 20 and 40 active youth members and about that many adult (active and inactive) members/advisors. I would expect that if your encountering a "gaggle" sized group on a river that cannot control a canoe, they probably aren't 14 to 20 year old kids (the age range of a venture crew), but closer to the 11 year old range of Boy or Girl Scouts... plus, most kids don't join Venture new, they join from a boy or girl scout troop where they have probably already been to summer camp a few years and have been canoeing before. I can't speak for any other crews because I generally wouldn't be caught dead associating with scouts, but the crew I'm involved with (mostly inactive these days) only has a handful of crossovers from "regular" scouts. Probably 90-95% of our youth are new to scouting. But we run a program that focuses differently than scouting does, which might be the draw for these kids. Encountering a Venture Crew on a trail or river would be more like meeting a small group of adults (young adults)... I could see however encountering a "gaggle" of Boy or Girl Scouts on a river, except for the mixed sex part. I've seen, through friends and friends' children, multiple excursions of mixed boy and girl scout troops. They don't sleep together, but they certainly participate in activities together. That said, I'd agree, the Venture Crews tend to be smaller and less likely to be unfocused (because of age and training) than standard boy and girl scout troops. : While I generally agree that Scouts are abysmally equipped and trained, : Paul's reaction seems a bit extreme. I don't know what happened : exactly, but from his description of events, it seems to me Paul should : have been able to do something to call attention to himself and avoid : the collision altogether. Letting them know he was there would have : been the first thing to do, whether they were "on the other bank" or : not, even if it's just to be friendly. Then they would have at least : acknowleged his presence and been more likely to TRY to avoid him. They : may not have been successful, but odds are they would have done something. : Karma or not, I don't know. I know nothing of Paul except the few posts : I've read in this thread. It definitely could have been handled : differently, though for better or worse is anyone's guess. I think it varies... as I said, we had Marge Cline (an ACA Paddler of the Century ;-), her son and another ACA instructor come out and work with our scouts. I don't think we were special or different; You are. Very few scout troops have anyone other than a parent who went through the BSA training doing their training for them. I've seen far too many troops engaged in "rock climbing", "canoeing", and many other active pursuits with absolutely no true training or guidance from the leaders. Most of the ones I have seen, the leaders had never actually done the activity before, except as part of BSA required training. there's a lot of requirments to meet before getting your permit approved to do a water activity and training is one of them... And the only required training is BSA training, which teaches the very basics and gives no concept of how to deal with real emergencies, on the water, on the rocks, or anywhere else. It's not even up to par (in many cases-not all) with the training you'd get as a "day tripper" from a local guide who basically holds your hand through everything. And often, in my experience, the adults who go through the BSA training come of it thinking they are some sort of expert at whatever task they were trained for. It's misplaced (and dangerous) confidence that is annoying to anyone who actually has experience. You don't just go anywhere, you have to apply for permits to go and those permits require certain training and certifications depending on where you are going... I know plenty of troops that don't apply for permits to go paddling, climbing or whatever, despite what the "requirements" are. : Which brings up the point of what you do with your spare time... maybe offer : to help a youth group near you as a way of self preservation? : This is a very good suggestion. It helps keep you up to date with how : kids are (even just a small subculture of them) and will also keep you : thinking and acting young. It sucks sometimes, because, well they're : teenagers and teenagers suck, but generally speaking it's a great : experience. And what can be better than molding someone in your own : image? Teaching them the things you think are important the way you : find it important for them to learn. Well, I'd disagree with your teenager comments... they are teenagers and they come in different shapes, sizes and personalities... I didn't mean all teenagers suck...just that teenagers as a general rule, are hormonal, often rebellious and have minds of their own that they are just getting the confidence to express. It makes them hard to deal with for a lot of people. I love hanging out with the kids, but some I'd just like to pound into the sand occasionally. : This doesn't make sense to me. Typically I find kayaks to be far more : maneuverable than canoes so it seems to me, if you had been paying : attention, Paul, you should have been able to avoid them, whether or not : they "lurched" across. Like you said, there was more than enough space : to squeeze by, if that picture is an accurate depiction of the area. Here we agree... but accidents happen... like i said, when that scout fell off his bike in front of me for what I thought was no reason... I had all i could do to not hit him (I hit his bike) and fall without breaking anything. No damage, except I'll never forget the feeling... (helmet was on... that's a permit requirment, but I was more worried about breaking a arm...) Without question, accidents happen. My point was, despite his depiction of the scenario, I felt the majority of the blame fell to the OP, not the "scouts" because, as the experienced person he should have known how to deal with the situation better than he did. Your original point and your example is perfect for what I'm saying...you as the adult took the responsibility not to hurt the kid who fell in front of you and you didn't blame him for your misfortune. The OP doesn't seem to feel the same sense of responsibility. bkr |
Damn Girl Scouts
Did I miss what type of kayak you were in? In a more whitewater type
environment there normally alittle banging and scraping going on. Lets not mention those nice big rubber bus's some call rafts that will get you pretty good. Of course after getting munched by a raft I get out of their way. They can zig-zag all they want but it will not help them. I am a kayaker....Hear me roar! |
Damn Girl Scouts
wrote:
: Did I miss what type of kayak you were in? In a more whitewater type : environment there normally alittle banging and scraping going on. Lets : not mention those nice big rubber bus's some call rafts that will get : you pretty good. Of course after getting munched by a raft I get out of : their way. They can zig-zag all they want but it will not help them. : I am a kayaker....Hear me roar! I always thought a big rubber raft was a steamroller when coming downstream... -- John Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org (A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
Damn Girl Scouts
I call rafts and catarafts floating strainers.
Courtney "Chicago Paddling-Fishing" wrote in message ... wrote: : Did I miss what type of kayak you were in? In a more whitewater type : environment there normally alittle banging and scraping going on. Lets : not mention those nice big rubber bus's some call rafts that will get : you pretty good. Of course after getting munched by a raft I get out of : their way. They can zig-zag all they want but it will not help them. : I am a kayaker....Hear me roar! I always thought a big rubber raft was a steamroller when coming downstream... -- John Nelson -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org (A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
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