"NOYB" wrote in message
k.net...

wrote in message
oups.com...

thunder wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a
complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a
big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent
the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.


Even if we had Atta's name in 2000, that was long before we decided it
was OK to attack, assassinate, declare war (or make war without
declaration), or otherwise remove entities that might, maybe, could be,
someday, somehow, possibly, threaten the security of the US. There was
a time in the US when people were punished for crimes committed, not
proactively punished for crimes that they just might maybe, could be,
commit in the future.

You guys keep missing the point.

It's not the crime (of failing to act on the Atta intel), it's the coverup
(of leaving the Able Danger info off the 9/11 Report and then having Slade
Gorton and Tom Kean state unequivocally that Able Danger "just didn't
happen".)



Welcome to the realization that there isn't some binary divide of
good/evil
or patriotism/treason between the political parties. They are two
marionettes in the same show, operated by the same crew of puppeteers.

Yes, but who are the puppeteers? You're suggesting that there's truth to
the New World Order conspiracists' notion that our government is run by
shadow groups like the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs...and PNAC.
;-)


Let's see....where was Atta from again? I honestly don't recall. Was it
Saudi Arabia?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.


You need a referral to a good therapist?

I didn't think so until today. With Rumsfeld's gag order on the Able
Danger guys, I'm not so sure anymore.




But....not long ago, Rummy was one of your favorite people.

I'm a fan of Bush's. If he has confidence in the guy, then I do. But I said
back in October and November of '04 that I thought (actually kinda hoped)
that Rumsfeld would "resign", and Powell would be named Sec. of Defense.
Regardless, I'm now extremely suspect of *both* administrations (clinton and
bush) with this latest directive out of the DoD.





Will you be writing to your president about your new concerns?

I already wrote to Sen. Martinez on the issue, since I have a higher chance
of hearing back from him.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
k.net...

wrote in message
oups.com...

thunder wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties
to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the
Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years
before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a
complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a
big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent
the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.


Even if we had Atta's name in 2000, that was long before we decided it
was OK to attack, assassinate, declare war (or make war without
declaration), or otherwise remove entities that might, maybe, could be,
someday, somehow, possibly, threaten the security of the US. There was
a time in the US when people were punished for crimes committed, not
proactively punished for crimes that they just might maybe, could be,
commit in the future.

You guys keep missing the point.

It's not the crime (of failing to act on the Atta intel), it's the
coverup (of leaving the Able Danger info off the 9/11 Report and then
having Slade Gorton and Tom Kean state unequivocally that Able Danger
"just didn't happen".)



Welcome to the realization that there isn't some binary divide of
good/evil
or patriotism/treason between the political parties. They are two
marionettes in the same show, operated by the same crew of puppeteers.

Yes, but who are the puppeteers? You're suggesting that there's truth to
the New World Order conspiracists' notion that our government is run by
shadow groups like the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs...and
PNAC. ;-)


Let's see....where was Atta from again? I honestly don't recall. Was it
Saudi Arabia?

Atta lived in several countries in the 1-2 years before 9/11...but Saudi
Arabia wasn't one of them.

But....not long ago, Rummy was one of your favorite people.


NOYB wrote:
I'm a fan of Bush's. If he has confidence in the guy, then I do.

After the continual comedy of errors, the dodging of accountability, the
emphasis on finger-pointing and partisan bombast, the lack of any actual
positive results, and you're still calling yourself a Bush fan?


... But I said
back in October and November of '04 that I thought (actually kinda hoped)
that Rumsfeld would "resign", and Powell would be named Sec. of Defense.

A good thing to hope, but the problem is that the Bush Administration
does not reward competence. They reward loyalty and the shoveling of
money into certain pockets. Powell doesn't play either game, so they
tossed him aside (and I suspect he was relieved to get out). He was a
token black and a token competent leader, and placed in the
Administration just to sucker real conservatives and non-whacko
Republicans into voting for Bush.




Will you be writing to your president about your new concerns?


I already wrote to Sen. Martinez on the issue, since I have a higher chance
of hearing back from him.

Why say that? I've heard from President Bush. He sent me a nice
Christmas card along with faux-autographed picture of himself & Laura,
along with a sincere note hoping we had a good Christman and that we'd
make another contribution to the Republican Party. So if you want to
hear from the President, the answer is simple... either have some
impressive letters after your name (ones that associate you with a
largely Republican, mostly white, and almost entirely conservative, peer
group)... or send him money.

OTOH when I've had problems dealing Federal bureaucracy, my Senators
(Sanford, Helms, and most lately Dole) have been very forward in getting
to the bottom of it.

DSK

"NOYB" wrote in message
k.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.


You need a referral to a good therapist?

I didn't think so until today. With Rumsfeld's gag order on the Able
Danger guys, I'm not so sure anymore.




But....not long ago, Rummy was one of your favorite people.

I'm a fan of Bush's. If he has confidence in the guy, then I do. But I
said back in October and November of '04 that I thought (actually kinda
hoped) that Rumsfeld would "resign", and Powell would be named Sec. of
Defense. Regardless, I'm now extremely suspect of *both* administrations
(clinton and bush) with this latest directive out of the DoD.





Will you be writing to your president about your new concerns?

I already wrote to Sen. Martinez on the issue, since I have a higher
chance of hearing back from him.


.....and your senator won't need the letter read to him and explained. Good
choice.

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
k.net...

wrote in message
oups.com...

thunder wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties
to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is
illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise
to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the
Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years
before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a
complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a
big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at
Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent
the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.


Even if we had Atta's name in 2000, that was long before we decided it
was OK to attack, assassinate, declare war (or make war without
declaration), or otherwise remove entities that might, maybe, could be,
someday, somehow, possibly, threaten the security of the US. There was
a time in the US when people were punished for crimes committed, not
proactively punished for crimes that they just might maybe, could be,
commit in the future.

You guys keep missing the point.

It's not the crime (of failing to act on the Atta intel), it's the
coverup (of leaving the Able Danger info off the 9/11 Report and then
having Slade Gorton and Tom Kean state unequivocally that Able Danger
"just didn't happen".)



Welcome to the realization that there isn't some binary divide of
good/evil
or patriotism/treason between the political parties. They are two
marionettes in the same show, operated by the same crew of puppeteers.

Yes, but who are the puppeteers? You're suggesting that there's truth
to the New World Order conspiracists' notion that our government is run
by shadow groups like the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs...and
PNAC. ;-)


Let's see....where was Atta from again? I honestly don't recall. Was it
Saudi Arabia?

Atta lived in several countries in the 1-2 years before 9/11...but Saudi
Arabia wasn't one of them.

His country of origin, slippery boy. I'm not from Sunoco, but I was just
there this morning.

This is different. It would be similar to a post-Pearl Harbor Commission
burying the report by the radar operator.

There is clearly a major coverup about the program, and we can only
speculate why. My guess, and only that, is that the program's goals
and techniques were, and still are, regarded as top secret. In
addition, it was (and probably still is) of dubious legality. Couple
that with the points that Chuck made regarding no known criminal
actions at the time, just an inferred chain of circumstantial evidence
which probably implicated a lot of other people besides Atta. Although
there may have been a bungle here also, I'm still convinced that the
really criminal screwup was by the FBI for not following up on the
flight school tips.

NOYB wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

thunder wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a
complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.


Even if we had Atta's name in 2000, that was long before we decided it
was OK to attack, assassinate, declare war (or make war without
declaration), or otherwise remove entities that might, maybe, could be,
someday, somehow, possibly, threaten the security of the US. There was
a time in the US when people were punished for crimes committed, not
proactively punished for crimes that they just might maybe, could be,
commit in the future.

You guys keep missing the point.

It's not the crime (of failing to act on the Atta intel), it's the coverup
(of leaving the Able Danger info off the 9/11 Report and then having Slade
Gorton and Tom Kean state unequivocally that Able Danger "just didn't
happen".)



Welcome to the realization that there isn't some binary divide of
good/evil
or patriotism/treason between the political parties. They are two
marionettes in the same show, operated by the same crew of puppeteers.

Yes, but who are the puppeteers? You're suggesting that there's truth to
the New World Order conspiracists' notion that our government is run by
shadow groups like the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs...and PNAC.
;-)

You don't have to get that arcane to find the puppeteers. Take a
campaign for US Senate, for example. It now costs, in many places,
$10-20 million dollars to stand a 50-50 chance of landing a six-year
job that pays less than $200k a year. The corporations that finance
these campaigns expect their money's worth when the "winner" takes
office. What's interesting is that most of the big-money groups hedge
their bets. Right now the Republicans are temporarily on top of the
heap, so Corporation X will give
65-70% of the political bribery budget to the Republican candidates but
will give 30-35% to the Democrats, "just in case of an upset". (When
the Democrats are back up again, the percentages will reverse). It's
that important to have some money invested in the candidate, no matter
who wins.
The fact that corporations routinely give to *both* sides of a
political contest reveals that those contributions are all about buying
control or at least influence at the congressional level and not in the
least about values or political philosophies.

This is different. It would be similar to a post-Pearl Harbor Commission
burying the report by the radar operator.


wrote:
There is clearly a major coverup about the program, and we can only
speculate why. My guess, and only that, is that the program's goals
and techniques were, and still are, regarded as top secret. In
addition, it was (and probably still is) of dubious legality.

A double BINGO right there. Spying within US borders, and epsecially on
US citizens, is a real hot potato... as it should be.


... Couple
that with the points that Chuck made regarding no known criminal
actions at the time, just an inferred chain of circumstantial evidence
which probably implicated a lot of other people besides Atta. Although
there may have been a bungle here also, I'm still convinced that the
really criminal screwup was by the FBI for not following up on the
flight school tips.


I'd agree, but then I also tend to pull toward maximum freedom &
constitutional protection of citizens rights, rather than maximum
security. Consider the slippery slope... it's been said by some that
they'd gladly torture suspects if the info gained saved an American
life. Agree? I don't. How about the next step, the torture of American
citizens to gain info that *might* save some lives? We've already taken
the step of detaining American citizens with no due process, shucks why
not torture them too?

Most of what has been foisted off on us as "security" and "war on
terrorism" measures don't do anything at all to increase our security.
They are very seriouos abouot increasing the security of the politicians
in charge, though... physically (I mean, when you call in the 82nd
airborn to keep all citizens at least 4 blocks away from President Bush
when he visits "historic Jackson Square" in New Orleans) and politically
(remember J. Edgar Hoover and his eager to share his 'files' with
politicians he agreed with)...

We're already going down a really slippery slope here. And the ones
shouting loudest for Freedom and the flag are generally the ones doing
the pushing.

Regards
Doug King

Harry,
Does your wife know you have this repressed anger? Would she be surprised
if someone forwarded your posts to her?

--

Starbuck

.... Computer: a device designed to drive human beings insane.
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
William Bruce wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
You need a referral to a good therapist?


Hey Krause, that's pretty rich coming from you. Ever heard of self
referral? But I forgot, your wife is a medical doctor. Perhaps she
knows a psychiatrist?

Cheers,
William

Ahh, Mr. Overweight checks in. You know, there is surgery for that
problem. It involves cutting your throat. Enjoy!




--
Debate Issue:
Resolved, that the voters of the United States need a mechanism
to remove an incompetent President from office.

An alternative: write a letter to George W. Bush at the White House
and ask him to resign immediately for the good of the country and its
people.