OT--Able Danger coverup really has me pissed...and concerned
 

What the hell are they hiding!?! Able Danger was a data mining operation in
the late 90's that supposedly ID'd Atta as a threat 1 1/2 years before 9/11.
The programs data (2.4 terabytes of it) was ordered destroyed in 2000. The
man who will testify that he was ordered to destroy it is now a civilian,
and will testify before the Senate today as to who told him to destroy it
and when.

Unfortunately, the DoD (possible Rumsfeld himself) has ordered the 4 other
witnesses *NOT* to testify before the Senate today.

Why is Rumsfeld protecting the details from a program that was destroyed
before Bush even took office? The Bush's and Clinton's sure spend a lot of
time covering for one another. Is it because of the amount of blackmail
dirt they have on each other?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

September 20, 2005
Pentagon Blocks Testimony at Senate Hearing on Terrorist
By PHILIP SHENON
WASHINGTON, Sept. 20 - The Pentagon said today that it had blocked a group
of military officers and intelligence analysts from testifying at an open
Congressional hearing about a highly classified military intelligence
program that, the officers have said, identified a ringleader of the Sept.
11 attacks as a potential terrorist more than a year before the attacks.

The announcement came a day before the officers and intelligence analysts
had been scheduled to testify about the program, known as Able Danger, at a
hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Bryan Whitman, a Defense Department spokesman, said in a statement that open
testimony about the program "would not be appropriate - we have expressed
our security concerns and believe it is simply not possible to discuss Able
Danger in any great detail in an open public forum." He offered no other
detail on the Pentagon's reasoning in blocking the testimony.

Senator Arlen Specter, the Pennsylvania Republican who is chairman of the
committee, said he was surprised by the Pentagon's decision because "so much
of this has already been in the public domain, and I think that the American
people need to know what happened here."

Mr. Specter said in a telephone interview that he intended to go ahead with
the hearing on Wednesday and hoped that it "may produce a change of heart by
the Department of Defense in answering some very basic questions."

Two military officers - an active-duty Navy captain and a reservist Army
lieutenant colonel - have said publicly in recent weeks that they were
involved with Able Danger and that the program's analysts identified Mohamed
Atta, the Egyptian-born ringleader of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, by name
as a potential terrorist by early 2000.

They said they attempted to share the information with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation in the summer of 2000, more than a year before the terrorist
attacks, but were blocked by Defense Department lawyers. F.B.I. officials,
who answer to the jurisdiction of Senator Specter's committee, have
confirmed that Defense Department abruptly canceled meetings in 2000 between
the bureau's Washington field office and representatives of the Able Danger
team.

The Pentagon has said that it has interviewed three other people who were
involved with Able Danger and who said that they, too, recalled the
identification of Mr. Atta as a terrorist suspect. But Defense Department
investigators said they could find no documentary evidence to back up the
assertion; they acknowledged that much of the information might have been
routinely destroyed.

Mr. Specter said his staff had talked to all five of the potential witnesses
and found that "credibility has been established" for all of them.

"There are quite a few credible people who are prepared to testify that
Mohamed Atta was identified long before 9/11," he said. "Now maybe there's
more than one Mohamed Atta. Or maybe there's some mistake. But that's what
we're trying to find out."

Mr. Whitman, the Pentagon spokesman, said that in place of members of the
Able Danger team, a senior defense official would be sent to the Wednesday
hearing to discuss "what the law and policies are on domestic surveillance
and to provide some insights about information-sharing between agencies."

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:29:04 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Why is Rumsfeld protecting the details from a program that was destroyed
before Bush even took office? The Bush's and Clinton's sure spend a lot
of time covering for one another. Is it because of the amount of
blackmail dirt they have on each other?

Uh perhaps, national security? Able Danger may be shut down, but the
techniques and capabilities are still being used elsewhere. Do you want
the world, and bin Laden, to know those capabilities just to
potentially embarrass a past President?

Or, there is nothing to Able Danger, and sunlight would prove it. You
should be grateful to Rumsfeld. This way, you can hold onto your deep,
dark, conspiracy theories. ;-)

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:29:04 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Why is Rumsfeld protecting the details from a program that was destroyed
before Bush even took office? The Bush's and Clinton's sure spend a lot
of time covering for one another. Is it because of the amount of
blackmail dirt they have on each other?

Uh perhaps, national security? Able Danger may be shut down, but the
techniques and capabilities are still being used elsewhere. Do you want
the world, and bin Laden, to know those capabilities just to
potentially embarrass a past President?

Or, there is nothing to Able Danger, and sunlight would prove it. You
should be grateful to Rumsfeld. This way, you can hold onto your deep,
dark, conspiracy theories. ;-)

Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to rest
by letting those guys speak.

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years before 9/11?
I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.


You need a referral to a good therapist?

I didn't think so until today. With Rumsfeld's gag order on the Able Danger
guys, I'm not so sure anymore.

Harry Krause wrote:

You need a referral to a good therapist?


Hey Krause, that's pretty rich coming from you. Ever heard of self
referral? But I forgot, your wife is a medical doctor. Perhaps she knows a
psychiatrist?

Cheers,
William

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.

thunder wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.


Even if we had Atta's name in 2000, that was long before we decided it
was OK to attack, assassinate, declare war (or make war without
declaration), or otherwise remove entities that might, maybe, could be,
someday, somehow, possibly, threaten the security of the US. There was
a time in the US when people were punished for crimes committed, not
proactively punished for crimes that they just might maybe, could be,
commit in the future.

Welcome to the realization that there isn't some binary divide of
good/evil
or patriotism/treason between the political parties. They are two
marionettes in the same show, operated by the same crew of puppeteers.
Those who blame all of our problems on party A or party B, or subscribe
with knee jerked enthusiasm to every proposal trotted out by party A or
party B have been duped very badly....and between the two major parties
that probably accounts for a majority of the electorate.

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy,

The conspiracy is not in failing to connect the dots to prevent 9/11. ****
happens.

The ongoing conspiracy is the coverup by the 9/11 Commission and the DoD
and the FBI...and why they are working so hard to hide the Able Danger/Atta
information. It wasn't in the 9/11 report, so it's prudent to ask why it
was omitted.


it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.

This is different. It would be similar to a post-Pearl Harbor Commission
burying the report by the radar operator.

wrote in message
oups.com...

thunder wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a
complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.


Even if we had Atta's name in 2000, that was long before we decided it
was OK to attack, assassinate, declare war (or make war without
declaration), or otherwise remove entities that might, maybe, could be,
someday, somehow, possibly, threaten the security of the US. There was
a time in the US when people were punished for crimes committed, not
proactively punished for crimes that they just might maybe, could be,
commit in the future.

You guys keep missing the point.

It's not the crime (of failing to act on the Atta intel), it's the coverup
(of leaving the Able Danger info off the 9/11 Report and then having Slade
Gorton and Tom Kean state unequivocally that Able Danger "just didn't
happen".)



Welcome to the realization that there isn't some binary divide of
good/evil
or patriotism/treason between the political parties. They are two
marionettes in the same show, operated by the same crew of puppeteers.

Yes, but who are the puppeteers? You're suggesting that there's truth to
the New World Order conspiracists' notion that our government is run by
shadow groups like the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs...and PNAC.
;-)

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.


You need a referral to a good therapist?

I didn't think so until today. With Rumsfeld's gag order on the Able
Danger guys, I'm not so sure anymore.




But....not long ago, Rummy was one of your favorite people. He could do no
wrong, even if every public appearance made him seem more and more like Dr.
Strangelove. Will you be writing to your president about your new concerns?

"NOYB" wrote in message
k.net...

wrote in message
oups.com...

thunder wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a
complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a
big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent
the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.


Even if we had Atta's name in 2000, that was long before we decided it
was OK to attack, assassinate, declare war (or make war without
declaration), or otherwise remove entities that might, maybe, could be,
someday, somehow, possibly, threaten the security of the US. There was
a time in the US when people were punished for crimes committed, not
proactively punished for crimes that they just might maybe, could be,
commit in the future.

You guys keep missing the point.

It's not the crime (of failing to act on the Atta intel), it's the coverup
(of leaving the Able Danger info off the 9/11 Report and then having Slade
Gorton and Tom Kean state unequivocally that Able Danger "just didn't
happen".)



Welcome to the realization that there isn't some binary divide of
good/evil
or patriotism/treason between the political parties. They are two
marionettes in the same show, operated by the same crew of puppeteers.

Yes, but who are the puppeteers? You're suggesting that there's truth to
the New World Order conspiracists' notion that our government is run by
shadow groups like the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs...and PNAC.
;-)


Let's see....where was Atta from again? I honestly don't recall. Was it
Saudi Arabia?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.


You need a referral to a good therapist?

I didn't think so until today. With Rumsfeld's gag order on the Able
Danger guys, I'm not so sure anymore.




But....not long ago, Rummy was one of your favorite people.

I'm a fan of Bush's. If he has confidence in the guy, then I do. But I said
back in October and November of '04 that I thought (actually kinda hoped)
that Rumsfeld would "resign", and Powell would be named Sec. of Defense.
Regardless, I'm now extremely suspect of *both* administrations (clinton and
bush) with this latest directive out of the DoD.





Will you be writing to your president about your new concerns?

I already wrote to Sen. Martinez on the issue, since I have a higher chance
of hearing back from him.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
k.net...

wrote in message
oups.com...

thunder wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties
to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the
Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years
before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a
complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a
big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent
the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.


Even if we had Atta's name in 2000, that was long before we decided it
was OK to attack, assassinate, declare war (or make war without
declaration), or otherwise remove entities that might, maybe, could be,
someday, somehow, possibly, threaten the security of the US. There was
a time in the US when people were punished for crimes committed, not
proactively punished for crimes that they just might maybe, could be,
commit in the future.

You guys keep missing the point.

It's not the crime (of failing to act on the Atta intel), it's the
coverup (of leaving the Able Danger info off the 9/11 Report and then
having Slade Gorton and Tom Kean state unequivocally that Able Danger
"just didn't happen".)



Welcome to the realization that there isn't some binary divide of
good/evil
or patriotism/treason between the political parties. They are two
marionettes in the same show, operated by the same crew of puppeteers.

Yes, but who are the puppeteers? You're suggesting that there's truth to
the New World Order conspiracists' notion that our government is run by
shadow groups like the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs...and
PNAC. ;-)


Let's see....where was Atta from again? I honestly don't recall. Was it
Saudi Arabia?

Atta lived in several countries in the 1-2 years before 9/11...but Saudi
Arabia wasn't one of them.

But....not long ago, Rummy was one of your favorite people.


NOYB wrote:
I'm a fan of Bush's. If he has confidence in the guy, then I do.

After the continual comedy of errors, the dodging of accountability, the
emphasis on finger-pointing and partisan bombast, the lack of any actual
positive results, and you're still calling yourself a Bush fan?


... But I said
back in October and November of '04 that I thought (actually kinda hoped)
that Rumsfeld would "resign", and Powell would be named Sec. of Defense.

A good thing to hope, but the problem is that the Bush Administration
does not reward competence. They reward loyalty and the shoveling of
money into certain pockets. Powell doesn't play either game, so they
tossed him aside (and I suspect he was relieved to get out). He was a
token black and a token competent leader, and placed in the
Administration just to sucker real conservatives and non-whacko
Republicans into voting for Bush.




Will you be writing to your president about your new concerns?


I already wrote to Sen. Martinez on the issue, since I have a higher chance
of hearing back from him.

Why say that? I've heard from President Bush. He sent me a nice
Christmas card along with faux-autographed picture of himself & Laura,
along with a sincere note hoping we had a good Christman and that we'd
make another contribution to the Republican Party. So if you want to
hear from the President, the answer is simple... either have some
impressive letters after your name (ones that associate you with a
largely Republican, mostly white, and almost entirely conservative, peer
group)... or send him money.

OTOH when I've had problems dealing Federal bureaucracy, my Senators
(Sanford, Helms, and most lately Dole) have been very forward in getting
to the bottom of it.

DSK

"NOYB" wrote in message
k.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.


You need a referral to a good therapist?

I didn't think so until today. With Rumsfeld's gag order on the Able
Danger guys, I'm not so sure anymore.




But....not long ago, Rummy was one of your favorite people.

I'm a fan of Bush's. If he has confidence in the guy, then I do. But I
said back in October and November of '04 that I thought (actually kinda
hoped) that Rumsfeld would "resign", and Powell would be named Sec. of
Defense. Regardless, I'm now extremely suspect of *both* administrations
(clinton and bush) with this latest directive out of the DoD.





Will you be writing to your president about your new concerns?

I already wrote to Sen. Martinez on the issue, since I have a higher
chance of hearing back from him.


.....and your senator won't need the letter read to him and explained. Good
choice.

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"NOYB" wrote in message
k.net...

wrote in message
oups.com...

thunder wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties
to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is
illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise
to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the
Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years
before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a
complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a
big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at
Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent
the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.


Even if we had Atta's name in 2000, that was long before we decided it
was OK to attack, assassinate, declare war (or make war without
declaration), or otherwise remove entities that might, maybe, could be,
someday, somehow, possibly, threaten the security of the US. There was
a time in the US when people were punished for crimes committed, not
proactively punished for crimes that they just might maybe, could be,
commit in the future.

You guys keep missing the point.

It's not the crime (of failing to act on the Atta intel), it's the
coverup (of leaving the Able Danger info off the 9/11 Report and then
having Slade Gorton and Tom Kean state unequivocally that Able Danger
"just didn't happen".)



Welcome to the realization that there isn't some binary divide of
good/evil
or patriotism/treason between the political parties. They are two
marionettes in the same show, operated by the same crew of puppeteers.

Yes, but who are the puppeteers? You're suggesting that there's truth
to the New World Order conspiracists' notion that our government is run
by shadow groups like the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs...and
PNAC. ;-)


Let's see....where was Atta from again? I honestly don't recall. Was it
Saudi Arabia?

Atta lived in several countries in the 1-2 years before 9/11...but Saudi
Arabia wasn't one of them.

His country of origin, slippery boy. I'm not from Sunoco, but I was just
there this morning.

This is different. It would be similar to a post-Pearl Harbor Commission
burying the report by the radar operator.

There is clearly a major coverup about the program, and we can only
speculate why. My guess, and only that, is that the program's goals
and techniques were, and still are, regarded as top secret. In
addition, it was (and probably still is) of dubious legality. Couple
that with the points that Chuck made regarding no known criminal
actions at the time, just an inferred chain of circumstantial evidence
which probably implicated a lot of other people besides Atta. Although
there may have been a bungle here also, I'm still convinced that the
really criminal screwup was by the FBI for not following up on the
flight school tips.

NOYB wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

thunder wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:24:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Grateful? The conspiracy theories keep me up at night searching the
internet. I'd get a lot more sleep if he'd put those uncertainties to
rest by letting those guys speak.

It could be, potentially, embarrassing for all involved. It is illegal
for the Pentagon to spy on American citizens. Does data mining rise to
spying?

Why is it OK to publish the PDB's leading up to 9/11 in the Commission
report, but not information that may have ID'd Atta 1 1/2 years before
9/11? I hope that you now realize that the 9/11 Commission was a
complete
whitewash of what really happened in the decade leading up to 9/11.

I don't see it as a whitewash, at worst, only incomplete. You make a big
deal of this Able Danger, but even if they did have Atta's name, it
doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes a typical, bumbling bureaucracy,
called government. History is full of these "what ifs". Look at Pearl
Harbor. If they had listened to the radar operator, if they had sent the
dispatch urgently, if . . . Able Danger isn't a conspiracy, it's your
government in inaction.


Even if we had Atta's name in 2000, that was long before we decided it
was OK to attack, assassinate, declare war (or make war without
declaration), or otherwise remove entities that might, maybe, could be,
someday, somehow, possibly, threaten the security of the US. There was
a time in the US when people were punished for crimes committed, not
proactively punished for crimes that they just might maybe, could be,
commit in the future.

You guys keep missing the point.

It's not the crime (of failing to act on the Atta intel), it's the coverup
(of leaving the Able Danger info off the 9/11 Report and then having Slade
Gorton and Tom Kean state unequivocally that Able Danger "just didn't
happen".)



Welcome to the realization that there isn't some binary divide of
good/evil
or patriotism/treason between the political parties. They are two
marionettes in the same show, operated by the same crew of puppeteers.

Yes, but who are the puppeteers? You're suggesting that there's truth to
the New World Order conspiracists' notion that our government is run by
shadow groups like the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs...and PNAC.
;-)

You don't have to get that arcane to find the puppeteers. Take a
campaign for US Senate, for example. It now costs, in many places,
$10-20 million dollars to stand a 50-50 chance of landing a six-year
job that pays less than $200k a year. The corporations that finance
these campaigns expect their money's worth when the "winner" takes
office. What's interesting is that most of the big-money groups hedge
their bets. Right now the Republicans are temporarily on top of the
heap, so Corporation X will give
65-70% of the political bribery budget to the Republican candidates but
will give 30-35% to the Democrats, "just in case of an upset". (When
the Democrats are back up again, the percentages will reverse). It's
that important to have some money invested in the candidate, no matter
who wins.
The fact that corporations routinely give to *both* sides of a
political contest reveals that those contributions are all about buying
control or at least influence at the congressional level and not in the
least about values or political philosophies.

This is different. It would be similar to a post-Pearl Harbor Commission
burying the report by the radar operator.


wrote:
There is clearly a major coverup about the program, and we can only
speculate why. My guess, and only that, is that the program's goals
and techniques were, and still are, regarded as top secret. In
addition, it was (and probably still is) of dubious legality.

A double BINGO right there. Spying within US borders, and epsecially on
US citizens, is a real hot potato... as it should be.


... Couple
that with the points that Chuck made regarding no known criminal
actions at the time, just an inferred chain of circumstantial evidence
which probably implicated a lot of other people besides Atta. Although
there may have been a bungle here also, I'm still convinced that the
really criminal screwup was by the FBI for not following up on the
flight school tips.


I'd agree, but then I also tend to pull toward maximum freedom &
constitutional protection of citizens rights, rather than maximum
security. Consider the slippery slope... it's been said by some that
they'd gladly torture suspects if the info gained saved an American
life. Agree? I don't. How about the next step, the torture of American
citizens to gain info that *might* save some lives? We've already taken
the step of detaining American citizens with no due process, shucks why
not torture them too?

Most of what has been foisted off on us as "security" and "war on
terrorism" measures don't do anything at all to increase our security.
They are very seriouos abouot increasing the security of the politicians
in charge, though... physically (I mean, when you call in the 82nd
airborn to keep all citizens at least 4 blocks away from President Bush
when he visits "historic Jackson Square" in New Orleans) and politically
(remember J. Edgar Hoover and his eager to share his 'files' with
politicians he agreed with)...

We're already going down a really slippery slope here. And the ones
shouting loudest for Freedom and the flag are generally the ones doing
the pushing.

Regards
Doug King

Harry,
Does your wife know you have this repressed anger? Would she be surprised
if someone forwarded your posts to her?

--

Starbuck

.... Computer: a device designed to drive human beings insane.
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
William Bruce wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
You need a referral to a good therapist?


Hey Krause, that's pretty rich coming from you. Ever heard of self
referral? But I forgot, your wife is a medical doctor. Perhaps she
knows a psychiatrist?

Cheers,
William

Ahh, Mr. Overweight checks in. You know, there is surgery for that
problem. It involves cutting your throat. Enjoy!




--
Debate Issue:
Resolved, that the voters of the United States need a mechanism
to remove an incompetent President from office.

An alternative: write a letter to George W. Bush at the White House
and ask him to resign immediately for the good of the country and its
people.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
William Bruce wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
You need a referral to a good therapist?


Hey Krause, that's pretty rich coming from you. Ever heard of self
referral? But I forgot, your wife is a medical doctor. Perhaps she
knows a psychiatrist?

Cheers,
William

Ahh, Mr. Overweight checks in. You know, there is surgery for that
problem. It involves cutting your throat. Enjoy!




--



Wow. Wishing death on someone who disagrees with you.

I hope folks here finally see the real Harry Krause.

JimH,
I love the way Harry finds a bit of personal information on someone and then
keeps repeating the same story over and over again. Yet he jumps on you and
JohnH for highlighting the lies Harry and Kevin use to legitimize their
positions.

--

Starbuck

"Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will
never be uprooted." -- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
"*JimH*" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
William Bruce wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
You need a referral to a good therapist?


Hey Krause, that's pretty rich coming from you. Ever heard of self
referral? But I forgot, your wife is a medical doctor. Perhaps she
knows a psychiatrist?

Cheers,
William

Ahh, Mr. Overweight checks in. You know, there is surgery for that
problem. It involves cutting your throat. Enjoy!




--



Wow. Wishing death on someone who disagrees with you.

I hope folks here finally see the real Harry Krause.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
*JimH* wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
William Bruce wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
You need a referral to a good therapist?

Hey Krause, that's pretty rich coming from you. Ever heard of self
referral? But I forgot, your wife is a medical doctor. Perhaps she
knows a psychiatrist?

Cheers,
William
Ahh, Mr. Overweight checks in. You know, there is surgery for that
problem. It involves cutting your throat. Enjoy!



Wow. Wishing death on someone who disagrees with you.

I hope folks here finally see the real Harry Krause.



Look up uvuloplasty. Mr. Potato(e) Head. It's throat surgery (literally,
cutting off a piece of the throat) to relieve symptoms of sleep apnea.


By the way Krause, you never did answer the question as to where your
medical doctor wife got her medical degree. Was it Harvard?

Cheers,
William

William,

I am sorry to tell you this, but Harry's wife really isn't a medical doctor.
She is a social worker, doing her best to help people. It is a noble
profession, but Harry was ashamed of her career, so he just made the story
up about his wife being a medical doctor working on her PHD. Harry was very
creative when he came up with his "friends" saying they would have to call
her Dr. Dr.

You may not agree with Harry's politics, but no one in rec.boats can spin a
yarn quite as good as Harry. Kevin might try, but he falls on his face.

--

Starbuck

"Only a mediocre man is always at his best." -- W. Somerset Maugham
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
"William Bruce" wrote in message
...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
*JimH* wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
William Bruce wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
You need a referral to a good therapist?

Hey Krause, that's pretty rich coming from you. Ever heard of self
referral? But I forgot, your wife is a medical doctor. Perhaps she
knows a psychiatrist?

Cheers,
William
Ahh, Mr. Overweight checks in. You know, there is surgery for that
problem. It involves cutting your throat. Enjoy!



Wow. Wishing death on someone who disagrees with you.

I hope folks here finally see the real Harry Krause.



Look up uvuloplasty. Mr. Potato(e) Head. It's throat surgery (literally,
cutting off a piece of the throat) to relieve symptoms of sleep apnea.


By the way Krause, you never did answer the question as to where your
medical doctor wife got her medical degree. Was it Harvard?

Cheers,
William

"Starbuck" wrote in message
...
William,

I am sorry to tell you this, but Harry's wife really isn't a medical
doctor. She is a social worker, doing her best to help people. It is a
noble profession, but Harry was ashamed of her career, so he just made the
story up about his wife being a medical doctor working on her PHD. Harry
was very creative when he came up with his "friends" saying they would
have to call her Dr. Dr.

You may not agree with Harry's politics, but no one in rec.boats can spin
a yarn quite as good as Harry. Kevin might try, but he falls on his face.

--

Starbuck


And I guess Krauster's degree from Yale is more like a degree from Podunk
School of Barbering and Front End Alignment?

William,
Yale has never heard of Harry Krause. He got his degree from U of Kansas in
Lawrence, KS. I am sorry to burst your positive image of Harry, but you
have to face the truth.

PS - He really doesn't own a Zimmerman Style Lobster Boat either. I am not
sure why he feels it necessary to make up these stories, I am sure it is a
deep seated emotional issue going back to childhood.

--

Starbuck

If at first you don't succeed, call it version 1.0.
"William Bruce" wrote in message
...

"Starbuck" wrote in message
...
William,

I am sorry to tell you this, but Harry's wife really isn't a medical
doctor. She is a social worker, doing her best to help people. It is a
noble profession, but Harry was ashamed of her career, so he just made
the story up about his wife being a medical doctor working on her PHD.
Harry was very creative when he came up with his "friends" saying they
would have to call her Dr. Dr.

You may not agree with Harry's politics, but no one in rec.boats can spin
a yarn quite as good as Harry. Kevin might try, but he falls on his
face.

--

Starbuck


And I guess Krauster's degree from Yale is more like a degree from Podunk
School of Barbering and Front End Alignment?