I had occassion to sit through the last 20 minutes of a presentation by
one of the local "Captain's License" schools to a group of people
interested in meeting the USCG qualifications for
"six pack" and 100-ton certification.

I couldn't beleive my eyes and ears. The rep from the school displayed
the Sea Service form on a screen and began instructing his audience on
how to game the system!

"Be creative" he said. "The Coast Guard wants to work with you to be
sure you qualify for the exam. The Coast Guard wants you to be
licensed. Remember, you can use all your time on any registered or
documented vessel since your 16th birthday as long as you owned the
vessel or can provide the registration number and get the owner to sign
off on your time" (He was corect about time on any registered vessel
since age 16).

"When you fill in the hours, never ever put down that you spent less
than four hours underway. If you think you were out for two or three
hours, round that up to something just over four. 4.3 or 4.5 would look
better than 4 exactly. You don't need to have a log, just use your
memory and write in enough days over enough years that you wind up with
at least 360 4-hour shifts of sea service and be sure that 90 of those
days are within the last three years. Most peole will want to show a
lot more days in the summer months than in December and January."

"If you boat out into any area that would be considered near coastal
rather than inland waters, make sure that you count the entire day as
near coastal service. If you're out of the inland waters for even an
hour or so, make sure that you claim at least four hours near coastal
for that day."

"In this block up here, you will be asked to fill in what your duties
were aboard the vessel. Never put down "engineer", even if that was
your job. The USCG will only allow you to count hours spent as an
"engineer" to apply to your engineer's license, not your captain's
license and once you have declared the time as an "engineer" you can't
go back and refile with another description of duties- you just lose
all that time forever unless you want to get licensed as an engineer.
Make sure that you write in "owner/operator" if you owned the vessel,
or "crew" or "deckhand" if you did not."

"We have a group of people at our school who will review your
application before it goes to the USCG to make sure you won't have any
problems qualifying for a license".

****

Outrageous.
And an insult to generations of licensed masters who legitimately
earned the right to test. It has long been known that sea service forms
are typically filled in with a wink and a nod, but it was still
appalling to actually hear somebody from a licensing school advise a
group: "be creative, round up the hours if need be, and remember the
Coast Guard wants to work with everybody to allow them to test for a
license."

What can "be creative" mean in this context, exactly, other than "lie
your butt off?"

I'm wouldn't want to tar all such schools with the same brush, but in
this specific case the school's policy (as represented by the group
presentation) does a disservice to the entire maritime community and
will certainly put a lot of underqualified people into positions of
responsibility for which they are not prepared.

I'm wouldn't want to tar all such schools with the same brush, but in
this specific case the school's policy (as represented by the group
presentation) does a disservice to the entire maritime community and
will certainly put a lot of underqualified people into positions of
responsibility for which they are not prepared.



Gaming the system has become the American way of life, Chuck. Look at
the business career of George W. Bush.

--

LOL! I had a notion that was coming..

Tom,
It is called OCD. When you couple that with his NPD it becomes a handful.


--

Starbuck

"You are accustomed to ostracism from childhood because you are overweight,
deformed, stupid, or have an extremely short [deleted]."
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:40:07 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Gaming the system has become the American way of life, Chuck. Look at
the business career of George W. Bush.

Jesus Harry, can't you EVER discuss something without bringing up
George Bush?

You are on the verge of becoming really annoying.

On 18 Sep 2005 09:04:11 -0700, wrote:

I had occassion to sit through the last 20 minutes of a presentation by
one of the local "Captain's License" schools to a group of people
interested in meeting the USCG qualifications for
"six pack" and 100-ton certification.

I couldn't beleive my eyes and ears. The rep from the school displayed
the Sea Service form on a screen and began instructing his audience on
how to game the system!

"Be creative" he said. "The Coast Guard wants to work with you to be
sure you qualify for the exam. The Coast Guard wants you to be
licensed. Remember, you can use all your time on any registered or
documented vessel since your 16th birthday as long as you owned the
vessel or can provide the registration number and get the owner to sign
off on your time" (He was corect about time on any registered vessel
since age 16).

"When you fill in the hours, never ever put down that you spent less
than four hours underway. If you think you were out for two or three
hours, round that up to something just over four. 4.3 or 4.5 would look
better than 4 exactly. You don't need to have a log, just use your
memory and write in enough days over enough years that you wind up with
at least 360 4-hour shifts of sea service and be sure that 90 of those
days are within the last three years. Most peole will want to show a
lot more days in the summer months than in December and January."

"If you boat out into any area that would be considered near coastal
rather than inland waters, make sure that you count the entire day as
near coastal service. If you're out of the inland waters for even an
hour or so, make sure that you claim at least four hours near coastal
for that day."

"In this block up here, you will be asked to fill in what your duties
were aboard the vessel. Never put down "engineer", even if that was
your job. The USCG will only allow you to count hours spent as an
"engineer" to apply to your engineer's license, not your captain's
license and once you have declared the time as an "engineer" you can't
go back and refile with another description of duties- you just lose
all that time forever unless you want to get licensed as an engineer.
Make sure that you write in "owner/operator" if you owned the vessel,
or "crew" or "deckhand" if you did not."

"We have a group of people at our school who will review your
application before it goes to the USCG to make sure you won't have any
problems qualifying for a license".

****

Outrageous.
And an insult to generations of licensed masters who legitimately
earned the right to test. It has long been known that sea service forms
are typically filled in with a wink and a nod, but it was still
appalling to actually hear somebody from a licensing school advise a
group: "be creative, round up the hours if need be, and remember the
Coast Guard wants to work with everybody to allow them to test for a
license."

What can "be creative" mean in this context, exactly, other than "lie
your butt off?"

I've a strong feeling there are a few folks right here in the group who will
have a six pack license very soon now! (Or maybe they'll just *say* they do!)
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:19:58 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:08:08 -0400, PocoLoco
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

I've a strong feeling there are a few folks right here in the group who will
have a six pack license very soon now! (Or maybe they'll just *say* they do!)

Is that a really bad thing though?

Even if you go to a school that teaches it's own test (which a lot of
these schools pretty much do), you still have to slog your way through
safety, regs, navigation (which in and of itself is a pretty valuable
education), signal recognition and you actually learn a lot even if it
is only to pass a test.

As to the experience thing, not everyone had a lot of experience and
at that, the OUPV is a qualifier of sorts as there are distance
qualifiers and the like. Around here, you see a lot of OUPV Captains
who has distance limits like 50 or 75miles, Inshore and you very
seldom see OUPV Captains with Near Shore qualifications.

I don't see the get your OUPV Captain's license schools as a bad thing
- I do see the under-qualified Master's as being a bad thing though.

That's one reason I downgraded mine because I really wasn't using it
and there really wasn't a reason for me to have it.

I disagree with using false pretenses to obtain recognition. That was one of the
main reasons I didn't vote for Kerry.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 00:22:59 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:00:13 -0400, PocoLoco
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:19:58 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:08:08 -0400, PocoLoco
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

I've a strong feeling there are a few folks right here in the group who will
have a six pack license very soon now! (Or maybe they'll just *say* they do!)

Is that a really bad thing though?

Even if you go to a school that teaches it's own test (which a lot of
these schools pretty much do), you still have to slog your way through
safety, regs, navigation (which in and of itself is a pretty valuable
education), signal recognition and you actually learn a lot even if it
is only to pass a test.

As to the experience thing, not everyone had a lot of experience and
at that, the OUPV is a qualifier of sorts as there are distance
qualifiers and the like. Around here, you see a lot of OUPV Captains
who has distance limits like 50 or 75miles, Inshore and you very
seldom see OUPV Captains with Near Shore qualifications.

I don't see the get your OUPV Captain's license schools as a bad thing
- I do see the under-qualified Master's as being a bad thing though.

That's one reason I downgraded mine because I really wasn't using it
and there really wasn't a reason for me to have it.

I disagree with using false pretenses to obtain recognition. That was one of the
main reasons I didn't vote for Kerry.

For OUPV (Six Pack) license, it's 360 days of experience on any water
over any period of time with 90 of those days being within three years
plus passing a recognized school.

That's not hard to obtain even for the most casual boater.

I reckon you're right.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

wrote in
oups.com:

I had occassion to sit through the last 20 minutes of a presentation
by one of the local "Captain's License" schools to a group of people
interested in meeting the USCG qualifications for
"six pack" and 100-ton certification.


Much of this points up my problems with the USCG having total control of
licensing/documentation of licenses.

Although we work in the same "medium", how we go about it and what we
have to know can be, and frequently is, two different animals.

The process of documenting ones time is open to much creativity in the
smaller (SixPac -25ton) grades, that I must agree, can be and always
will be subject to some disgression. This to me is not a serious
problem. The problem arises at the "testing" level.
With all due respect to those members of the USCG, giving those test
...... IF they do not have the time, experience needed to hold that
license, they are not qualified to pass on someone else's ability to
hold that license. A straight forward multiple choice exam, tells you
only how well an individual takes exams and not how well they actually
know the subject and/or can perform the required task...... I've met too
many good seamen who have a tough time with exams and too many bad ones
who with a bit of study, can pass any exam. There are many members of
the USCG, well trained and experienced to give these lower grade
licenses, but they should be allowed to review these test and come up
with practical and essay type exams that will make it apparent when
someone's "time" is real or bogus.

otn

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:00:13 -0400, PocoLoco
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:19:58 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:08:08 -0400, PocoLoco
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

I've a strong feeling there are a few folks right here in the group who will
have a six pack license very soon now! (Or maybe they'll just *say* they do!)

Is that a really bad thing though?

Even if you go to a school that teaches it's own test (which a lot of
these schools pretty much do), you still have to slog your way through
safety, regs, navigation (which in and of itself is a pretty valuable
education), signal recognition and you actually learn a lot even if it
is only to pass a test.

As to the experience thing, not everyone had a lot of experience and
at that, the OUPV is a qualifier of sorts as there are distance
qualifiers and the like. Around here, you see a lot of OUPV Captains
who has distance limits like 50 or 75miles, Inshore and you very
seldom see OUPV Captains with Near Shore qualifications.

I don't see the get your OUPV Captain's license schools as a bad thing
- I do see the under-qualified Master's as being a bad thing though.

That's one reason I downgraded mine because I really wasn't using it
and there really wasn't a reason for me to have it.

I disagree with using false pretenses to obtain recognition. That was one of the
main reasons I didn't vote for Kerry.

For OUPV (Six Pack) license, it's 360 days of experience on any water
over any period of time with 90 of those days being within three years
plus passing a recognized school.

That's not hard to obtain even for the most casual boater.


Harder than you might imagine, if you hope to actually follow the
rules. You need to be *underway*, not just aboard, for a minimum of 4
hours. Motor out into the harbor for an hour, drop an anchor, shut down
the boat, fish all afternoon, motor back for an hour: zero time. Sit on
the boat in the marina or motor across the bay to the restuarant dock
for a cocktail? Zero time.

The lowest number of engine hours one could rack up and meet the
qualification would be 1440 hours - and only if the boat were never
operated for more or less than 4 hours. If you operate for 12 hours
straight, you can still only claim 1 day per 24/hour period. Most
people would need to operate 2000 engine hours plus; and for a lot of
pleasure boaters in short season climates we're talking about 20-25
years of operation to get 360 days of at least 4 hours underway
(legitimately).

I would personally be ashamed to "qualify" on the basis on a wink, a
nod, and a lie.

Harry Krause wrote:
PocoLoco wrote:
On 18 Sep 2005 09:04:11 -0700, wrote:

I had occassion to sit through the last 20 minutes of a presentation by
one of the local "Captain's License" schools to a group of people
interested in meeting the USCG qualifications for
"six pack" and 100-ton certification.

I couldn't beleive my eyes and ears. The rep from the school displayed
the Sea Service form on a screen and began instructing his audience on
how to game the system!

"Be creative" he said. "The Coast Guard wants to work with you to be
sure you qualify for the exam. The Coast Guard wants you to be
licensed. Remember, you can use all your time on any registered or
documented vessel since your 16th birthday as long as you owned the
vessel or can provide the registration number and get the owner to sign
off on your time" (He was corect about time on any registered vessel
since age 16).

"When you fill in the hours, never ever put down that you spent less
than four hours underway. If you think you were out for two or three
hours, round that up to something just over four. 4.3 or 4.5 would look
better than 4 exactly. You don't need to have a log, just use your
memory and write in enough days over enough years that you wind up with
at least 360 4-hour shifts of sea service and be sure that 90 of those
days are within the last three years. Most peole will want to show a
lot more days in the summer months than in December and January."

"If you boat out into any area that would be considered near coastal
rather than inland waters, make sure that you count the entire day as
near coastal service. If you're out of the inland waters for even an
hour or so, make sure that you claim at least four hours near coastal
for that day."

"In this block up here, you will be asked to fill in what your duties
were aboard the vessel. Never put down "engineer", even if that was
your job. The USCG will only allow you to count hours spent as an
"engineer" to apply to your engineer's license, not your captain's
license and once you have declared the time as an "engineer" you can't
go back and refile with another description of duties- you just lose
all that time forever unless you want to get licensed as an engineer.
Make sure that you write in "owner/operator" if you owned the vessel,
or "crew" or "deckhand" if you did not."

"We have a group of people at our school who will review your
application before it goes to the USCG to make sure you won't have any
problems qualifying for a license".

****

Outrageous.
And an insult to generations of licensed masters who legitimately
earned the right to test. It has long been known that sea service forms
are typically filled in with a wink and a nod, but it was still
appalling to actually hear somebody from a licensing school advise a
group: "be creative, round up the hours if need be, and remember the
Coast Guard wants to work with everybody to allow them to test for a
license."

What can "be creative" mean in this context, exactly, other than "lie
your butt off?"

I've a strong feeling there are a few folks right here in the group who will
have a six pack license very soon now! (Or maybe they'll just *say* they do!)


Why would they want one, unless they're taking passengers out for hire?
It takes more than a six pack license to be a real ship's master.



--
- - -
George W. Bush, our hero!

The President asks for comp time because of the hurricane.
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/


There are some pretty good reasons *not* to be licensed unless needed.

One of which is the potential for additional damages in a lawsuit. If
you're unlucky enough to be the defendant the plaintiff's lawyer can
really rev up the jury with, "Not only should any boater have known
better than to run down my client's unlit sailing dinghy crossing the
Vessel Traffic lanes at 1 AM, (breaking the plantiff's little finger
and eliminating anyh possibility he might have purused a multi-million
dollar career as a concert violinist), but the defendant has less of an
excuse than anyone else: HE IS A LICENSED CAPTAIN!

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote in
:

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 00:54:29 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote:

~~ snippage ~~

With all due respect to those members of the USCG, giving those test
..... IF they do not have the time, experience needed to hold that
license, they are not qualified to pass on someone else's ability to
hold that license. A straight forward multiple choice exam, tells you
only how well an individual takes exams and not how well they actually
know the subject and/or can perform the required task......

That's not true at all. A well designed multiple choice test can
evidence knowledge. You design a multiple choice test to have a true,
plausible, one false and one sort-of false. A properly designed test
demonstrates not only the knowledge, but depth of understanding beyond
rote - again if properly designed.


Although your point is well taken, I still have a problem with this type
test for a license.
This type test requires that the TEST, "is" properly designed and that
the person being examed "is" properly schooled in the possible answers.
Some parts of the exam could easily be handled by "multiple choice", but
there needs to be a greater "hands on/practical" input, wherein the
examiner is able and allowed to adjust for wrong answers due to stupid
mistakes, someone who has problems with test, someone who knows the test
but not the application, etc.


I've met too many good seamen who have a tough time with exams
and too many bad ones who with a bit of study, can pass any exam.
There are many members of the USCG, well trained and experienced to
give these lower grade licenses, but they should be allowed to review
these test and come up with practical and essay type exams that will
make it apparent when someone's "time" is real or bogus.

Hard to do because it takes way too much time to interpret not to
mention literacy problems - not everyone is a writer, author and
editor. It takes my wife most of a weekend during a test cycle to
correct 75 1,000 word essay tests for honors curriculum. Examiners
don't have the time to examine these type of "tests" and even at that
it's much too subjective - you get a guy who isn't qualified but can
spin a line and somebody who is qualified and can't spin a line.

I disagree with all of this. Most importantly, the last part.
By having examiners who have practical experience in the grade of
license being given, they will know when someone is "spinning a line",
and when some one is having a problem explaining but knows what they are
doing....
As for time .... this is how these test were once given.
The time factor is not that important.... it's not a question of
finishing a semester on time, it's a persons livelyhood and whether or
not they know what they are doing.


The point is that at the OUPV level, this is a good way to do it. The
only way to prevent abuse is to place a qualifier that you need to
operate at the OUPV level for X amount of time before you even think
of qualifying for higher level licenses.

At the OUPV level, you may be right, but I'd still prefer to see some
practical, hands on input.

otn