On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:49:50 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"PocoLoco" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:19:31 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

wrote:

"NOYB" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
news "NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...

That's because you listen to those wacky liberal news stations like
NPR.

Heh. Would you like whipped cream on that foot, as long as it's in
your
mouth? Three weeks ago, our local NPR radio station interviewed two
people from the NYS department of labor. They were bemoaning the FACT
that although they can offer retraining to mid- and senior-level
engineers who will lose their jobs when Delphi (the auto parts maker)
shuts its doors, they know for a FACT that companies simply do not
exist here which can offer these people anywhere near the money they
were making before. They were talking about people going from 75k to
100k, down to 30k-40k. Not funny when you're 45 years old and your
first kid's going to college next year.

Just because someone was earning $75-100k doesn't mean that they are
guaranteed that amount in the future.

Obviously not, but you're using your incomplete information to "prove"
that wealth is being created, when, on the whole, it may not be.



Consider this:

Before you could look up the exact dealer cost of an automobile....

Blah. This does not support your use of incomplete data. I assume you
realize that if this were a discussion in an economics or statistics
class, your professor would've humiliated you by now.

I went to a conservative university, in a conservative town in a
conservative state. My professors were conservatives. They would not
only have *not* humiliated me, they would have agreed with me.

Bull****. You stated that more jobs were created. You did NOT indicate at
what income levels they were created. 95% may have been jobs which pay
minimum wage. Or not. You don't know. And, you don't know where those
employees came from before. Were they unemployed? Did they leave other
jobs
for reasons other than money, like travel distance or job satisfaction?
You
have no idea. Therefore, you cannot argue that there was any gain or loss,
or that it has any political significance whatsoever.


Doug, do you really believe that all these people were hired at minimum
wage,
and no supervisors were hired, or promoted? Why not get a little bit real?

I never made any numerical claims. I'm pointing out that this particular
statistic is meaningless without other information. You must know a few math
teachers who enjoy statistics. Ask some of them.


Well, then you must also believe that denigrating the jobs as 'low paying' is
also meaningless. True?
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...

Bull****. You stated that more jobs were created. You did NOT indicate
at
what income levels they were created. 95% may have been jobs which pay
minimum wage. Or not. You don't know. And, you don't know where those
employees came from before. Were they unemployed? Did they leave other
jobs
for reasons other than money, like travel distance or job satisfaction?
You
have no idea. Therefore, you cannot argue that there was any gain or
loss,
or that it has any political significance whatsoever.


Doug, do you really believe that all these people were hired at minimum
wage,
and no supervisors were hired, or promoted? Why not get a little bit
real?

I never made any numerical claims. I'm pointing out that this particular
statistic is meaningless without other information. You must know a few
math
teachers who enjoy statistics. Ask some of them.


Well, then you must also believe that denigrating the jobs as 'low paying'
is
also meaningless. True?

John, the past few years have brought new testing procedures to be sure our
kids are up to speed in terms of reading comprehension. Have you tried
taking any of the sample tests?

I specifically said that the stats presented by NOYB are meaningless. I did
not say the jobs "created" were low paying jobs. If you disagree, please cut
& paste my text, and tell me why you think I made any claims.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:07:38 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"PocoLoco" wrote in message
.. .

Bull****. You stated that more jobs were created. You did NOT indicate
at
what income levels they were created. 95% may have been jobs which pay
minimum wage. Or not. You don't know. And, you don't know where those
employees came from before. Were they unemployed? Did they leave other
jobs
for reasons other than money, like travel distance or job satisfaction?
You
have no idea. Therefore, you cannot argue that there was any gain or
loss,
or that it has any political significance whatsoever.


Doug, do you really believe that all these people were hired at minimum
wage,
and no supervisors were hired, or promoted? Why not get a little bit
real?

I never made any numerical claims. I'm pointing out that this particular
statistic is meaningless without other information. You must know a few
math
teachers who enjoy statistics. Ask some of them.


Well, then you must also believe that denigrating the jobs as 'low paying'
is
also meaningless. True?

John, the past few years have brought new testing procedures to be sure our
kids are up to speed in terms of reading comprehension. Have you tried
taking any of the sample tests?

I specifically said that the stats presented by NOYB are meaningless. I did
not say the jobs "created" were low paying jobs. If you disagree, please cut
& paste my text, and tell me why you think I made any claims.


I didn't say *you* said they were low paying jobs. I asked if you believed that
such statements were meaningless. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...

Bull****. You stated that more jobs were created. You did NOT indicate
at
what income levels they were created. 95% may have been jobs which pay
minimum wage. Or not. You don't know. And, you don't know where those
employees came from before. Were they unemployed? Did they leave other
jobs
for reasons other than money, like travel distance or job satisfaction?
You
have no idea. Therefore, you cannot argue that there was any gain or
loss,
or that it has any political significance whatsoever.


Doug, do you really believe that all these people were hired at minimum
wage,
and no supervisors were hired, or promoted? Why not get a little bit
real?

I never made any numerical claims. I'm pointing out that this particular
statistic is meaningless without other information. You must know a few
math
teachers who enjoy statistics. Ask some of them.


Well, then you must also believe that denigrating the jobs as 'low
paying' is
also meaningless. True?

John, the past few years have brought new testing procedures to be sure
our kids are up to speed in terms of reading comprehension. Have you tried
taking any of the sample tests?

I specifically said that the stats presented by NOYB are meaningless. I
did not say the jobs "created" were low paying jobs. If you disagree,
please cut & paste my text, and tell me why you think I made any claims.

The test, rather than being an assessment are the goal. The teachers are
teaching to pass the test instead of teaching to children to learn.

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...

Bull****. You stated that more jobs were created. You did NOT indicate
at
what income levels they were created. 95% may have been jobs which pay
minimum wage. Or not. You don't know. And, you don't know where those
employees came from before. Were they unemployed? Did they leave other
jobs
for reasons other than money, like travel distance or job
satisfaction?
You
have no idea. Therefore, you cannot argue that there was any gain or
loss,
or that it has any political significance whatsoever.


Doug, do you really believe that all these people were hired at
minimum
wage,
and no supervisors were hired, or promoted? Why not get a little bit
real?

I never made any numerical claims. I'm pointing out that this particular
statistic is meaningless without other information. You must know a few
math
teachers who enjoy statistics. Ask some of them.


Well, then you must also believe that denigrating the jobs as 'low
paying' is
also meaningless. True?

John, the past few years have brought new testing procedures to be sure
our kids are up to speed in terms of reading comprehension. Have you
tried taking any of the sample tests?

I specifically said that the stats presented by NOYB are meaningless. I
did not say the jobs "created" were low paying jobs. If you disagree,
please cut & paste my text, and tell me why you think I made any claims.

The test, rather than being an assessment are the goal. The teachers are
teaching to pass the test instead of teaching to children to learn.


If that's what your school is doing, complain, or help your kids at home,
which is where most real learning begins anyway.

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:46:14 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...

Bull****. You stated that more jobs were created. You did NOT indicate
at
what income levels they were created. 95% may have been jobs which pay
minimum wage. Or not. You don't know. And, you don't know where those
employees came from before. Were they unemployed? Did they leave other
jobs
for reasons other than money, like travel distance or job
satisfaction?
You
have no idea. Therefore, you cannot argue that there was any gain or
loss,
or that it has any political significance whatsoever.


Doug, do you really believe that all these people were hired at
minimum
wage,
and no supervisors were hired, or promoted? Why not get a little bit
real?

I never made any numerical claims. I'm pointing out that this particular
statistic is meaningless without other information. You must know a few
math
teachers who enjoy statistics. Ask some of them.


Well, then you must also believe that denigrating the jobs as 'low
paying' is
also meaningless. True?

John, the past few years have brought new testing procedures to be sure
our kids are up to speed in terms of reading comprehension. Have you
tried taking any of the sample tests?

I specifically said that the stats presented by NOYB are meaningless. I
did not say the jobs "created" were low paying jobs. If you disagree,
please cut & paste my text, and tell me why you think I made any claims.

The test, rather than being an assessment are the goal. The teachers are
teaching to pass the test instead of teaching to children to learn.


If that's what your school is doing, complain, or help your kids at home,
which is where most real learning begins anyway.


In Virginia, the state has published Standards of Learning for each subject by
grade level. The SOLs are pretty comprehensive.

Here is the 8th Grade Math SOL. Note that this is *not* the Algebra SOL.

http://www.pen.k12.va.us/VDOE/Superi...Sols/math8.pdf

The teachers are given the SOLs, and are told to teach them all. They do not see
the SOL Test until it is administered in late Spring. To say they teach the test
is simply an untrue put down.

--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"PocoLoco" wrote in message
...


The test, rather than being an assessment are the goal. The teachers are
teaching to pass the test instead of teaching to children to learn.


If that's what your school is doing, complain, or help your kids at home,
which is where most real learning begins anyway.


In Virginia, the state has published Standards of Learning for each
subject by
grade level. The SOLs are pretty comprehensive.

Here is the 8th Grade Math SOL. Note that this is *not* the Algebra SOL.

http://www.pen.k12.va.us/VDOE/Superi...Sols/math8.pdf

The teachers are given the SOLs, and are told to teach them all. They do
not see
the SOL Test until it is administered in late Spring. To say they teach
the test
is simply an untrue put down.

When talking face to face with people about this, I mostly find that the
ones who complain about "teaching to the test" are the parents who are
minimally involved with their kids' education to begin with. And that's the
reason for this whole uproar in the first place. Kids are turning out stupid
and the parents can't figure out why. How are teachers supposed to figure
out who knows what, unless there are tests? Granted, they have to do observe
how each kid is learning, via class participation, but still, there have to
be some standards.

I spend lots of time with my son and his friends, all around 192 months old,
and I don't know how high school teachers deal with their testosterone-fried
brains. My son's taking AP physics. Last night, his homework involved a long
list of conversions between feet, meters, blah blah blah, how many trains
get from the moon to Chicago at the speed of light on a Tuesday, using
mostly exponents. He was bitching loudly that this was not physics, this was
math, and even though he got a 99 in AP math this past spring, he was
finding this a bit challenging. I calmed him down with a strawberry
smoothie, and suggested that his physics teacher assigned this stuff to blow
the summer cobwebs out of their brains, and evaluate who was going to be
challenged when the real physics began, like..next week. His response: "Nice
slam, dad. You think we don't use our brains all summer?"

I just said "No comment", left the room. :-)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 14:53:55 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"PocoLoco" wrote in message
.. .


The test, rather than being an assessment are the goal. The teachers are
teaching to pass the test instead of teaching to children to learn.


If that's what your school is doing, complain, or help your kids at home,
which is where most real learning begins anyway.


In Virginia, the state has published Standards of Learning for each
subject by
grade level. The SOLs are pretty comprehensive.

Here is the 8th Grade Math SOL. Note that this is *not* the Algebra SOL.

http://www.pen.k12.va.us/VDOE/Superi...Sols/math8.pdf

The teachers are given the SOLs, and are told to teach them all. They do
not see
the SOL Test until it is administered in late Spring. To say they teach
the test
is simply an untrue put down.

When talking face to face with people about this, I mostly find that the
ones who complain about "teaching to the test" are the parents who are
minimally involved with their kids' education to begin with. And that's the
reason for this whole uproar in the first place. Kids are turning out stupid
and the parents can't figure out why. How are teachers supposed to figure
out who knows what, unless there are tests? Granted, they have to do observe
how each kid is learning, via class participation, but still, there have to
be some standards.

I spend lots of time with my son and his friends, all around 192 months old,
and I don't know how high school teachers deal with their testosterone-fried
brains. My son's taking AP physics. Last night, his homework involved a long
list of conversions between feet, meters, blah blah blah, how many trains
get from the moon to Chicago at the speed of light on a Tuesday, using
mostly exponents. He was bitching loudly that this was not physics, this was
math, and even though he got a 99 in AP math this past spring, he was
finding this a bit challenging. I calmed him down with a strawberry
smoothie, and suggested that his physics teacher assigned this stuff to blow
the summer cobwebs out of their brains, and evaluate who was going to be
challenged when the real physics began, like..next week. His response: "Nice
slam, dad. You think we don't use our brains all summer?"

I just said "No comment", left the room. :-)


We agree. I've found also that parents who do not support education (esp.
homework completion) tend to blame the failure to perform on tests as a problem
with the teacher. There is a very strong relationship between a failure to do
math homework and a failure to pass math tests. I graded my students homework
every day. Using Excel, it was easy to graph the relationships. Most of the
'grade report' software the teachers use don't allow that.

Sounds like your son was reviewing the laws of exponents, perhaps as a prelude
to the use of logarithms.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."