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Noybby Visits California
Published on Friday, May 28, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
I Have Met the Enemy ... by Patricia Kneisler For the first time ever in my life, I had someone threaten to kill me tonight. He was nearly apoplectic with rage, screaming curses, his finger right in my face, his eyes slits of venom. Ex-Navy lifer, I gathered. Probably in his late 50's. Beer belly. A person so devoid of humanity I was stunned. Good lord, you might ask. What on earth did you, a 52 year old professional woman, do to provoke that? All I did was exercise my duty as a very concerned citizen in what I thought was America. I stood silently out on the sidewalk in my California town with a sign in each hand. One sign showed a tally of the number of Iraqi civilian dead from the Iraq Body Count website . the other the number of coalition soldiers dead to date. This is my regular Thursday night gig, something I've done every week for 14 months now. In fact, it was early in the vigil . so early that my retired friend Tom and I were the only ones there. That's when the car whipped over to the curb directly in front of us and Mr. Ex-Navy got out and came around to confront us. "I want to tell you both something," he began belligerently . To which Tom replied smoothly, "Oh, good . please do." "I served in the Navy for 27 years. Served in Viet Nam. And it's f**cking jerks like you who got a lot of good men KILLED over there!" And that was just the warm up. He had plenty more where that came from. Mind you, I'd heard of people like this . fellow Americans who firmly believe things that reasonable, charitable and empathetic people simply could not with any sense of decency believe. But in my sheltered existence, I had never actually met one face to face, much less been on the receiving end of one's wrath. Well, I thought . I have my talking points ready. I know my arguments. We'll just address one issue at a time here. That's when I heard him thunder that old bromide, "Three thousand people died in the World Trade Center!!" Aha . I knew what to say to that. I showed him the sign with the dead Iraqi civilians on it . those 11,000 some odd souls who have died because we invaded their country. "But these people had nothing whatsoever to do with the World . " He made a dismissive gesture and said, "So what." "Huh? We're talking 11,000 human beings here ." "You don't get it, do you? You people really don't get it. These - people - are - MUSLIMS!" "So?" "They are MUSLIMS! They want to kill us all. If they were over here now they 'd slit your throat and RAPE you!" "Bull****," I said through tightening lips. "MUSLIMS are the ENEMY," he spit. "Bull****," I said again. It went on. More of the same . a spewing forth of such ignorance and delusion as I have ever heard. People like Tom and I were ruining this country with our protest . ruining it. We were worse than filth. We ought to be locked up. The man took enough of a breath for Tom to get a word in edgewise. "What about the Constitution?" "**** the constitution! I WILL NOT LET YOU PEOPLE DESTROY MY COUNTRY! I WILL NOT LET YOU!" "No," I replied. "It is us who will not let YOU destroy our country. We - will - not - let - you." Well, OK, I called him an asshole, too. Tom is my witness. I thought of those 11,000 innocent dead Iraqis and I called him an asshole. As he finally stormed back around to the driver's side of his car, a shouting match ensued (not on Tom's part . I'm afraid he was the only adult in the group). And then came the parting shot: "Bush will win in a LANDSLIDE. And if he doesn't, WE know where to find you. WE can take care of you. WE can make sure you don't EVER **** with this country again." Yes, people say that to one another these days in . where was it that I thought I lived? America? The land of Thomas Jefferson? Of mom and apple pie? Of noble, lofty principles? Of goodness, sweetness and light? That's when I thought of Abu Ghuraib. In fact, the pictures seemed to flash like a slide show through my brain, one after another. Grinning, leering Americans torturing human beings stripped of every shred of their humanity in the eyes of their torturers. And I understood. Mr. Ex-Navy would have fit right in. I met the dark underbelly of America tonight. I really did meet the enemy. And he really is -- |
Noybby Visits California
WaIIy wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2004 07:56:41 -0400, Harry Krause wrote: Published on Friday, May 28, 2004 by CommonDreams.org I Have Met the Enemy ... by Patricia Kneisler Please put "OT" in these leftist posts, Harry. You are in the true spirit of Memorial Day. More than you are, d.f., since I am opposed to wasting young lives in idiotic, politically inspired military campaigns, such as what we are now perpetrating on Iraq and Afghanistan. Perhaps you and the missus will be heading to the mall later, to buy some stuff and celebrate poppy day in style, eh? |
Noybby Visits California
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Published on Friday, May 28, 2004 by CommonDreams.org left-wing screed no credibility |
Noybby Visits California
"Harry Krause" wrote in snip I met the dark underbelly of America tonight. I really did meet the enemy. And he really is Yes...the enemy is within! -- |
Noybby Visits California
Don White wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in snip I met the dark underbelly of America tonight. I really did meet the enemy. And he really is Yes...the enemy is within! -- After all, under George W. Bush: we've invaded foreign nations posing no immediate threat to us; we've established puppet governments in those nations; we've "arrested" thousands of non-combatants; we've set up concentration camps thousands of miles from the homes of those arrested, and we're holding them without access to lawyers or their families; we've summarily executed prisoners without finding them guilty of anything, and, in fact, without even putting them on trial; we impugn the patriotism of those who dissent and threaten them. All characteristics of fascist governments of the 1930s and 40s, eh? No wonder our resident righties feel so comfy about Bush. |
No..i think he's in Halifax
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Noybby Visits California
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Noybby Visits California
On Mon, 31 May 2004 11:20:44 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: I am opposed to wasting young lives in idiotic, politically inspired military campaigns ====================================== And who isn't? That doesn't make it on topic however, or any less tiresome. |
Noybby Visits California
"jps" wrote in message left-wing screed no credibility right-wing screed no credibility sigh Learn the meaning of screed. |
Noybby Visits California
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Noybby Visits California
"jps" wrote in message I lernt it awyle beck. I think not. |
Noybby Visits California
"John Gaquin" wrote in message ... "jps" wrote in message I lernt it awyle beck. I think not. Obviously, he was referring to your short note as a lengthy discourse. How many dozen beers this afternoon, John? |
No..i think he's in Halifax
"Don White" wrote in message ... Another gun tottin' American jailed. see http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2004...o.html#186.raw " Only a small amount of narcotics was found and no drug charges have been laid, said police Sgt. Randy Snow. " At least they've got their heads on straight up your way. Here, those drugs would've lead the cops to confiscate his house, his dog, his grandma, and put him in jail for 319 years. :-) |
Noybby Visits California
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message news:IYQuc.4478 Obviously, he was referring to your short note as a lengthy discourse. Proving my point. How many dozen beers this afternoon, John? Not enough to cede the advantage. |
Noybby Visits California
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Noybby Visits California
"jps" wrote in message Your retorts are ponderous, no matter their length. Therefore, to me, they're screed. I forgot, momentarily, that libs reserve the right to redefine the meaning of words to suit their purpose at the moment. Mea Culpa. |
I Have Met the Enemy ...
Harry, a good article that should be explored further. When I meet or hear a black person who is rigidly racist I have to think about what they must have gone thru in their life to turn them thus. I then silently thank god for the black men who have risen above the resentment and hate. They have had a positive impact on us. When I hear a Liberal who is foaming at the mouth I have a hard time understanding what they have gone thru. Nor does their retoric provide any solutions to the real life problems they are protesting against. The marine that went balistic at the poor man and woman who were peacefully demonstrating I can understand because I have been thru some of the same history. Thousands were killed needlessly in Vietnam because of POLITICS in this country. It's starting again. A war that is nessasary for the long term safety of the world is being turned into a political football. That's treasonous behaviour provided they understand the necessity for the war. There is the problem, rising above the "Bush hate" to understand the reasoning. I can see it because I have been paying attention. It was easier for me because I wasn't a "Hater" and by temperment I am a person who asks why. The problem is Saudi Arabia but the solution is complicated because we can't endanger the worlds oil supplies. |
Noybby Visits California
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I Have Met the Enemy ...
Jeff Rigby wrote:
H... Thousands were killed needlessly in Vietnam because of POLITICS in this country. This is malarkey. Please explain, in detail, how anti-war protestors Stateside caused a single combat casualty in Viet Nam. DSK |
Noybby Visits California
I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like Ms.
Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old, because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms. Kneisler should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in. "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Published on Friday, May 28, 2004 by CommonDreams.org I Have Met the Enemy ... by Patricia Kneisler For the first time ever in my life, I had someone threaten to kill me tonight. He was nearly apoplectic with rage, screaming curses, his finger right in my face, his eyes slits of venom. Ex-Navy lifer, I gathered. Probably in his late 50's. Beer belly. A person so devoid of humanity I was stunned. Good lord, you might ask. What on earth did you, a 52 year old professional woman, do to provoke that? All I did was exercise my duty as a very concerned citizen in what I thought was America. I stood silently out on the sidewalk in my California town with a sign in each hand. One sign showed a tally of the number of Iraqi civilian dead from the Iraq Body Count website . the other the number of coalition soldiers dead to date. This is my regular Thursday night gig, something I've done every week for 14 months now. In fact, it was early in the vigil . so early that my retired friend Tom and I were the only ones there. That's when the car whipped over to the curb directly in front of us and Mr. Ex-Navy got out and came around to confront us. "I want to tell you both something," he began belligerently . To which Tom replied smoothly, "Oh, good . please do." "I served in the Navy for 27 years. Served in Viet Nam. And it's f**cking jerks like you who got a lot of good men KILLED over there!" And that was just the warm up. He had plenty more where that came from. Mind you, I'd heard of people like this . fellow Americans who firmly believe things that reasonable, charitable and empathetic people simply could not with any sense of decency believe. But in my sheltered existence, I had never actually met one face to face, much less been on the receiving end of one's wrath. Well, I thought . I have my talking points ready. I know my arguments. We'll just address one issue at a time here. That's when I heard him thunder that old bromide, "Three thousand people died in the World Trade Center!!" Aha . I knew what to say to that. I showed him the sign with the dead Iraqi civilians on it . those 11,000 some odd souls who have died because we invaded their country. "But these people had nothing whatsoever to do with the World . " He made a dismissive gesture and said, "So what." "Huh? We're talking 11,000 human beings here ." "You don't get it, do you? You people really don't get it. These - people - are - MUSLIMS!" "So?" "They are MUSLIMS! They want to kill us all. If they were over here now they 'd slit your throat and RAPE you!" "Bull****," I said through tightening lips. "MUSLIMS are the ENEMY," he spit. "Bull****," I said again. It went on. More of the same . a spewing forth of such ignorance and delusion as I have ever heard. People like Tom and I were ruining this country with our protest . ruining it. We were worse than filth. We ought to be locked up. The man took enough of a breath for Tom to get a word in edgewise. "What about the Constitution?" "**** the constitution! I WILL NOT LET YOU PEOPLE DESTROY MY COUNTRY! I WILL NOT LET YOU!" "No," I replied. "It is us who will not let YOU destroy our country. We - will - not - let - you." Well, OK, I called him an asshole, too. Tom is my witness. I thought of those 11,000 innocent dead Iraqis and I called him an asshole. As he finally stormed back around to the driver's side of his car, a shouting match ensued (not on Tom's part . I'm afraid he was the only adult in the group). And then came the parting shot: "Bush will win in a LANDSLIDE. And if he doesn't, WE know where to find you. WE can take care of you. WE can make sure you don't EVER **** with this country again." Yes, people say that to one another these days in . where was it that I thought I lived? America? The land of Thomas Jefferson? Of mom and apple pie? Of noble, lofty principles? Of goodness, sweetness and light? That's when I thought of Abu Ghuraib. In fact, the pictures seemed to flash like a slide show through my brain, one after another. Grinning, leering Americans torturing human beings stripped of every shred of their humanity in the eyes of their torturers. And I understood. Mr. Ex-Navy would have fit right in. I met the dark underbelly of America tonight. I really did meet the enemy. And he really is -- |
Noybby Visits California
"NOYB" wrote in message hlink.net... I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like Ms. Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old, because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms. Kneisler should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in. She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she cites, would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in the last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Published on Friday, May 28, 2004 by CommonDreams.org I Have Met the Enemy ... by Patricia Kneisler For the first time ever in my life, I had someone threaten to kill me tonight. He was nearly apoplectic with rage, screaming curses, his finger right in my face, his eyes slits of venom. Ex-Navy lifer, I gathered. Probably in his late 50's. Beer belly. A person so devoid of humanity I was stunned. Good lord, you might ask. What on earth did you, a 52 year old professional woman, do to provoke that? All I did was exercise my duty as a very concerned citizen in what I thought was America. I stood silently out on the sidewalk in my California town with a sign in each hand. One sign showed a tally of the number of Iraqi civilian dead from the Iraq Body Count website . the other the number of coalition soldiers dead to date. This is my regular Thursday night gig, something I've done every week for 14 months now. In fact, it was early in the vigil . so early that my retired friend Tom and I were the only ones there. That's when the car whipped over to the curb directly in front of us and Mr. Ex-Navy got out and came around to confront us. "I want to tell you both something," he began belligerently . To which Tom replied smoothly, "Oh, good . please do." "I served in the Navy for 27 years. Served in Viet Nam. And it's f**cking jerks like you who got a lot of good men KILLED over there!" And that was just the warm up. He had plenty more where that came from. Mind you, I'd heard of people like this . fellow Americans who firmly believe things that reasonable, charitable and empathetic people simply could not with any sense of decency believe. But in my sheltered existence, I had never actually met one face to face, much less been on the receiving end of one's wrath. Well, I thought . I have my talking points ready. I know my arguments. We'll just address one issue at a time here. That's when I heard him thunder that old bromide, "Three thousand people died in the World Trade Center!!" Aha . I knew what to say to that. I showed him the sign with the dead Iraqi civilians on it . those 11,000 some odd souls who have died because we invaded their country. "But these people had nothing whatsoever to do with the World . " He made a dismissive gesture and said, "So what." "Huh? We're talking 11,000 human beings here ." "You don't get it, do you? You people really don't get it. These - people - are - MUSLIMS!" "So?" "They are MUSLIMS! They want to kill us all. If they were over here now they 'd slit your throat and RAPE you!" "Bull****," I said through tightening lips. "MUSLIMS are the ENEMY," he spit. "Bull****," I said again. It went on. More of the same . a spewing forth of such ignorance and delusion as I have ever heard. People like Tom and I were ruining this country with our protest . ruining it. We were worse than filth. We ought to be locked up. The man took enough of a breath for Tom to get a word in edgewise. "What about the Constitution?" "**** the constitution! I WILL NOT LET YOU PEOPLE DESTROY MY COUNTRY! I WILL NOT LET YOU!" "No," I replied. "It is us who will not let YOU destroy our country. We - will - not - let - you." Well, OK, I called him an asshole, too. Tom is my witness. I thought of those 11,000 innocent dead Iraqis and I called him an asshole. As he finally stormed back around to the driver's side of his car, a shouting match ensued (not on Tom's part . I'm afraid he was the only adult in the group). And then came the parting shot: "Bush will win in a LANDSLIDE. And if he doesn't, WE know where to find you. WE can take care of you. WE can make sure you don't EVER **** with this country again." Yes, people say that to one another these days in . where was it that I thought I lived? America? The land of Thomas Jefferson? Of mom and apple pie? Of noble, lofty principles? Of goodness, sweetness and light? That's when I thought of Abu Ghuraib. In fact, the pictures seemed to flash like a slide show through my brain, one after another. Grinning, leering Americans torturing human beings stripped of every shred of their humanity in the eyes of their torturers. And I understood. Mr. Ex-Navy would have fit right in. I met the dark underbelly of America tonight. I really did meet the enemy. And he really is -- |
I Have Met the Enemy ...
Jeff Rigby wrote:
Harry, a good article that should be explored further. When I meet or hear a black person who is rigidly racist I have to think about what they must have gone thru in their life to turn them thus. I then silently thank god for the black men who have risen above the resentment and hate. They have had a positive impact on us. When I hear a Liberal who is foaming at the mouth I have a hard time understanding what they have gone thru. Nor does their retoric provide any solutions to the real life problems they are protesting against. The marine that went balistic at the poor man and woman who were peacefully demonstrating I can understand because I have been thru some of the same history. Thousands were killed needlessly in Vietnam because of POLITICS in this country. It's starting again. A war that is nessasary for the long term safety of the world is being turned into a political football. There's no evidence the war Bush is waging will ensure the long term safety of anything. That's treasonous behaviour provided they understand the necessity for the war. Bull****. There is the problem, rising above the "Bush hate" to understand the reasoning. I can see it because I have been paying attention. It was easier for me because I wasn't a "Hater" and by temperment I am a person who asks why. The problem is Saudi Arabia but the solution is complicated because we can't endanger the worlds oil supplies. |
Noybby Visits California
"P.Fritz" wrote in message
... "NOYB" wrote in message hlink.net... I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like Ms. Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old, because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms. Kneisler should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in. She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she cites, would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) So, that makes it OK to kill. I understand. In reality, the US, in the last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year Where DO you girls come up with that 35,000 number? It's been bantied around here by other Borg in the past. |
Noybby Visits California
P.Fritz wrote:
She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she cites, would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in the last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year If that were a good moral justification for invading Iraq, then why did Bush wait 3 years? Why did he not 1- announce as part of his 2000 campaign that he intended to invade Iraq and unseat Saddam Hussein and 2- why did he wait until after Sept 11th? You're admitting, by this pseudo logic, that the U.S. is complicit in all Iraqi deaths due to Baathist goon squads. Now let's see you justify killings & torture by American goon squads. DSK |
No..i think he's in Halifax
** We don't mind a bit of marijuana for 'medicinal purposes' but sure do get
nervous around any firearms other than hunting rifles & shotguns ** "Doug Kanter" wrote in At least they've got their heads on straight up your way. Here, those drugs would've lead the cops to confiscate his house, his dog, his grandma, and put him in jail for 319 years. :-) |
I Have Met the Enemy ...
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Jeff Rigby wrote: Harry, a good article that should be explored further. When I meet or hear a black person who is rigidly racist I have to think about what they must have gone thru in their life to turn them thus. I then silently thank god for the black men who have risen above the resentment and hate. They have had a positive impact on us. When I hear a Liberal who is foaming at the mouth I have a hard time understanding what they have gone thru. Nor does their retoric provide any solutions to the real life problems they are protesting against. The marine that went balistic at the poor man and woman who were peacefully demonstrating I can understand because I have been thru some of the same history. Thousands were killed needlessly in Vietnam because of POLITICS in this country. It's starting again. A war that is nessasary for the long term safety of the world is being turned into a political football. There's no evidence the war Bush is waging will ensure the long term safety of anything. If you would clear your mind of your hatred of Pres. Bush you might be able to see clearly enough to understand that we are in a war for our national and western cultural survival. \ That's treasonous behaviour provided they understand the necessity for the war. Bull****. Really? Are you too stupid to see what is going on beyond our shores? There is the problem, rising above the "Bush hate" to understand the reasoning. I can see it because I have been paying attention. It was easier for me because I wasn't a "Hater" and by temperment I am a person who asks why. The problem is Saudi Arabia but the solution is complicated because we can't endanger the worlds oil supplies. |
No..i think he's in Halifax
"Don White" wrote: Another gun tottin' American jailed. Hey Don, you guys ever take out your own trash? You know, like Robinson? Got your own problems in the great white north, eh? Jack |
I Have Met the Enemy ...
"Bert Robbins" wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message There's no evidence the war Bush is waging will ensure the long term safety of anything. Really? Are you too stupid to see what is going on beyond our shores? Harry's too stupid to see what's going on beyond his next google for "Bush". He's mesmerized by his hate. Jack |
No..i think he's in Halifax
Hunting rifles? Are they sort of like granola spoons, which are completely
different from sorbet spoons, soup spoons, corn flake spoons and others in the spoon family? :-) "Don White" wrote in message ... ** We don't mind a bit of marijuana for 'medicinal purposes' but sure do get nervous around any firearms other than hunting rifles & shotguns ** "Doug Kanter" wrote in At least they've got their heads on straight up your way. Here, those drugs would've lead the cops to confiscate his house, his dog, his grandma, and put him in jail for 319 years. :-) |
I Have Met the Enemy ...
"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
... If you would clear your mind of your hatred of Pres. Bush you might be able to see clearly enough to understand that we are in a war for our national and western cultural survival. Too bad you didn't catch Zinni's interview today on NPR. Clue: Al Qaeda has no shortage of new volunteers, most of whom are NOT religious loonies. Can you guess why they want to get involved? |
Noybby Visits California
"P.Fritz" wrote in message ... "NOYB" wrote in message hlink.net... I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like Ms. Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old, because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms. Kneisler should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in. She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she cites, would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in the last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year much snipage Hmmm, I think your numbers may not tell the whole story. How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind after they thought we would support them in thier uprising? Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal embargo? Mark Browne |
Noybby Visits California
Mark Browne wrote:
"P.Fritz" wrote in message ... "NOYB" wrote in message rthlink.net... I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like Ms. Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old, because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms. Kneisler should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in. She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she cites, would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in the last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year much snipage Hmmm, I think your numbers may not tell the whole story. How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind after they thought we would support them in thier uprising? Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal embargo? Mark Browne Shhhh...don't bring up stuff like that...it confuses them. |
I Have Met the Enemy ...
Bert Robbins wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Jeff Rigby wrote: Harry, a good article that should be explored further. When I meet or hear a black person who is rigidly racist I have to think about what they must have gone thru in their life to turn them thus. I then silently thank god for the black men who have risen above the resentment and hate. They have had a positive impact on us. When I hear a Liberal who is foaming at the mouth I have a hard time understanding what they have gone thru. Nor does their retoric provide any solutions to the real life problems they are protesting against. The marine that went balistic at the poor man and woman who were peacefully demonstrating I can understand because I have been thru some of the same history. Thousands were killed needlessly in Vietnam because of POLITICS in this country. It's starting again. A war that is nessasary for the long term safety of the world is being turned into a political football. There's no evidence the war Bush is waging will ensure the long term safety of anything. If you would clear your mind of your hatred of Pres. Bush you might be able to see clearly enough to understand that we are in a war for our national and western cultural survival. There is no evidence whatsoever that Bush's War will have any positive impact on our survival or that of "western" culture. Your posit is just the latest in the never-ending string of rationalizations for idiot Bush's warmongering in Iraq and Afghanistan. Furthermore, I find nothing of value in the Bush or neocon philosophy of how the United States or "the world" should be, in terms of what survives or what is of value. What I see in Bush and the neocons is a new, world-wide, fascist order which the United Stetes "rules" for a short time through military action, threats of military action, and various nefarious efforts to prop up pseudo-democracies that play ball with "the" vision. Such an empire is inherently evil and will not last long. |
Noybby Visits California
"Mark Browne" wrote in message news:P5evc.6277$sI.466@attbi_s52... "P.Fritz" wrote in message ... "NOYB" wrote in message hlink.net... I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like Ms. Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old, because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms. Kneisler should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in. She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she cites, would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in the last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year much snipage Hmmm, I think your numbers may not tell the whole story. Just like the liebral's sign didn't How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind after they thought we would support them in thier uprising? One reason the numbers vary from 88 to 158......depends on who is doing the counting and who is counted . Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal embargo? None. Mark Browne |
Noybby Visits California
How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind
after they thought we would support them in thier uprising? Quite a bit. Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal embargo? Oh, oh. Not so fast. Saddam managed to live in a state of unfettered opulence throughout the embargo. Remember when one of his sons loaded a 40' trailer with $US and lit out for Iran as the invasion closed in on Baghdad? Even if the average denomination was a $20, a trailer-full has got to be tens of millions. That money could have purchased a 20 pound bag of rice for every family in Iraq, every month, for one hell of a long time. But, it didn't. Saddam was a *******. Any ruler who will live in luxury out of the national purse (rather than personal wealth) while kids are commonly dying from starvation is a *******. No serious person will lament that he has been removed- the legitimately debatable point is whether the end justified the means. Whether the embargo was right, or not, is less important than the established fact Hussein did far less than he could or should have done to ease the suffering of his people. A significant portion of the embargo deaths *are* his fault. |
No..i think he's in Halifax
** He's on the West coast...whole different world! **
"Jack Goff" wrote in message . .. "Don White" wrote: Another gun tottin' American jailed. Hey Don, you guys ever take out your own trash? You know, like Robinson? Got your own problems in the great white north, eh? Jack |
Noybby Visits California
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind after they thought we would support them in thier uprising? Quite a bit. Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal embargo? Oh, oh. Not so fast. Saddam managed to live in a state of unfettered opulence throughout the embargo. Remember when one of his sons loaded a 40' trailer with $US and lit out for Iran as the invasion closed in on Baghdad? Even if the average denomination was a $20, a trailer-full has got to be tens of millions. That money could have purchased a 20 pound bag of rice for every family in Iraq, every month, for one hell of a long time. But, it didn't. Saddam was a *******. Any ruler who will live in luxury out of the national purse (rather than personal wealth) while kids are commonly dying from starvation is a *******. No serious person will lament that he has been removed- the legitimately debatable point is whether the end justified the means. Whether the embargo was right, or not, is less important than the established fact Hussein did far less than he could or should have done to ease the suffering of his people. A significant portion of the embargo deaths *are* his fault. This is one of the rare cases where somebody said something that changed my mind on a newsgroup. Thanks. Mark Browne |
Noybby Visits California
The amount was in excess of $900,000,000 Just shy of a billion.
"Mark Browne" wrote in message news:8zwvc.33817$pt3.5356@attbi_s03... "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind after they thought we would support them in thier uprising? Quite a bit. Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal embargo? Oh, oh. Not so fast. Saddam managed to live in a state of unfettered opulence throughout the embargo. Remember when one of his sons loaded a 40' trailer with $US and lit out for Iran as the invasion closed in on Baghdad? Even if the average denomination was a $20, a trailer-full has got to be tens of millions. That money could have purchased a 20 pound bag of rice for every family in Iraq, every month, for one hell of a long time. But, it didn't. Saddam was a *******. Any ruler who will live in luxury out of the national purse (rather than personal wealth) while kids are commonly dying from starvation is a *******. No serious person will lament that he has been removed- the legitimately debatable point is whether the end justified the means. Whether the embargo was right, or not, is less important than the established fact Hussein did far less than he could or should have done to ease the suffering of his people. A significant portion of the embargo deaths *are* his fault. This is one of the rare cases where somebody said something that changed my mind on a newsgroup. Thanks. Mark Browne |
No..i think he's in Halifax
"Jack Goff" wrote in message ...
"Don White" wrote: Another gun tottin' American jailed. Hey Don, you guys ever take out your own trash? You know, like Robinson? Got your own problems in the great white north, eh? Jack What a bigot. Against anything that isn't white, with a red neck, huh? |
Noybby Visits California
"Mark Browne" wrote in message news:P5evc.6277$sI.466@attbi_s52...
"P.Fritz" wrote in message ... "NOYB" wrote in message hlink.net... I can empathize with Mr. ex-Navy. There's no reasoning with people like Ms. Kneisler because they lack logic and reason. It's like trying to debate with a 2 year old. However, you don't get angry with the two year old, because he/she doesn't know any better. A grown woman like Ms. Kneisler should know better...and that's where the frustration sets in. She probably does, but it is all politics......11,000 deaths, as she cites, would equal between 88 and 158 days of deaths of innocents that Hussein averaged. (depnding on whois doing the count) In reality, the US, in the last year, has saved up to 35,000 in the last year much snipage Hmmm, I think your numbers may not tell the whole story. How much of the Saddam death toll is the folks we left twist in the wind after they thought we would support them in thier uprising? We should have supported them. However I would love for you to explain the logic used to transfer blame from Saddam to the U.S. for the thing he did. Further, how many Iraqi deaths were due to fallout from the brutal embargo? Who made the emabargo so brutal? Not the U.S. There was more than enough money going into Iraq to keep everyone sustained. That money was going through a UNITED NATIONS operated program. Saddam lived large off that money - and it appears that official from other countries also engaged in personally profiting from that program. |
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