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Ferro Cement Boat Restoration
I am thinking that I might be interested in a Ketch or Cruiser restoration project. I would like one about 45' on deck. If any has one for sale in the Pacific NW I might be interested to hear from you. If anyone has any experience with a restoration of this type I would be interested to hear your horror stories etc. I have looked at several web sites (ferrocement.org, etc) as well as looked at several book titles on the subject but have found that books and the real world are two entirely different things. I would like to get a diversity of resources that I can refer to. If anyone can offer any ideas I would appreciate it. I run out of ideas from time to time. I have limited construction experience and have had some training with shop tools and equipment and may be able to offer some ideas to someone who might need some help so I would like to hear from those people as well. I also have some cadet experience and may also be able to help with some of those issues as well. Hope to hear from y'all soon! Tom -- |
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Thanks for the tip, I might refer back to it at a later date!
Tom Butch Davis ) wrote: : Thomas, : FWIW (very little), a friend of mine took on such a project in 1982. He and : his SO worked on the boat for about a year. At the time he was employed at : an Army marina/hobby shop and had access to all tools and equipment and was : able to work on his project on-site during the lunch hour etc. When he : finished the project the boat was pretty nice. He subsquently sailed down : to the Keys where he lived aboard and sailed until he sold the boat and : started work on another project boat. : At the time he finished the project he told me it was about four times as : much work and expense as he had estimated when he began. He told me he : would never again try to restore a ferrocement boat and that he believed it : would have been cheaper, faster and easier to start from scratch with a new : armature. : This guy was a gifted craftsman with years of experience. : YMMV. : Butch : "Red Cloud®" wrote in message : ... : On 31 Jul 2005 22:46:47 -0800, (Thomas D. : Ireland) : wrote: : : : I am thinking that I might be interested in a Ketch or Cruiser : restoration project. I would like one about 45' on deck. If any has one : for sale in the Pacific NW I might be interested to hear from you. If : anyone has any experience with a restoration of this type I would be : interested to hear your horror stories etc. : I have looked at several web sites (ferrocement.org, etc) as well as : looked at several book titles on the subject but have found that books and : the real world are two entirely different things. I would like to get a : diversity of resources that I can refer to. If anyone can offer any ideas : I would appreciate it. I run out of ideas from time to time. : I have limited construction experience and have had some training with : shop tools and equipment and may be able to offer some ideas to someone : who might need some help so I would like to hear from those people as : well. I also have some cadet experience and may also be able to help with : some of those issues as well. Hope to hear from y'all soon! : : Tom : : Just for openers, you'll find it extremely difficult or completely : impossible to : get insurance or financing of any kind for a ferro cement boat. : : rusty redcloud -- |
HarryKrause ) wrote:
: Gene Kearns wrote: : On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:28:49 GMT, "Butch Davis" : wrote: : . : At the time he finished the project he told me it was about four times as : much work and expense as he had estimated when he began. He told me he : would never again try to restore a ferrocement boat and that he believed it : would have been cheaper, faster and easier to start from scratch with a new : armature. : : : I can't imagine delving into such a repair without significant and : expensive NDI equipment. How one could determine the condition of the : "ferro" inside the cement without such is beyond me.... and *not* : determining it would yield a finished job with no guarantee of : structural integrity. : : There would be enough challenges involved in restoring a fiberglass or : wooden boat... if you just need a hobby. : : If you want to actually go boating.... get a fixer upper. Come to : think of it, even a new boat, trailer, motor combination has enough : upkeep to classify as a hobby.... : : ...YMMV.... : I cannot imagine why anyone would want to build or buy a ferrocement : tub. Wood is the way to go, if your starting from scratch, and several : posters here and in other boating groups have shared great photos and : stories with us of boats they have built of wood, wood-epoxy, wood : sheathed in fiberglass and fiberglass. Even if you want to build a : honking big sailboat, you can buy a fiberglass hull, finish it off, and : have a nice boat. I think I would like the stability a heavy boat would offer. It would be a much nicer ride I think. There are lots of pros and cons though. Tom -- |
Thanks for the tip! It is a big project but I have time on my hands. I'm
not worried about woodwork so if I can get a good hull with a deck the rest will be simple. I would subcontract electrical for insurance reasons and plumbing because I want to be sure it is reliable though. Tom Shortwave Sportfishing ) wrote: : On 31 Jul 2005 22:46:47 -0800, (Thomas D. : Ireland) wrote: : : I am thinking that I might be interested in a Ketch or Cruiser : restoration project. I would like one about 45' on deck. If any has one : for sale in the Pacific NW I might be interested to hear from you. If : anyone has any experience with a restoration of this type I would be : interested to hear your horror stories etc. : I have looked at several web sites (ferrocement.org, etc) as well as : looked at several book titles on the subject but have found that books and : the real world are two entirely different things. I would like to get a : diversity of resources that I can refer to. If anyone can offer any ideas : I would appreciate it. I run out of ideas from time to time. : I have limited construction experience and have had some training with : shop tools and equipment and may be able to offer some ideas to someone : who might need some help so I would like to hear from those people as : well. I also have some cadet experience and may also be able to help with : some of those issues as well. Hope to hear from y'all soon! : Having done several restorations over the years from cars to boats, : including a '68 Chris Craft Corsair which is in it's second year of : work, this is not something that you want to take on if you have never : done anything like it before. It's not a reflection on you or your : ability to learn, adjust or competence - it's just a fact. : Second, you are spot on - books don't cover it all. Even on my newer : boats, I'm always learning something about them, breaking something : that isn't quite covered or having to noodle an issue through without : any support at all from available information. : As to ferroconcrete, do what you will, but I'd stay away from this : type of vessel. It's not that they are or aren't any safer than any : other type of vessel - they built a bizillion of them during WWII and : I've heard tell that several of them are still floating and being : used. It's that the maintenance is tougher with them, the issues are : much more complex (like spalling for example) and you just can't : "repair" one in the middle of a cruise. : If I were you, I'd take on a smaller task - find a boat with a smaller : profile in glass or wood which is solid and sound, but needs some TLC. : That way you can get more complex as you learn and maybe even make : some money along the way after all the work is done. : In any case, good luck. : Later, : Tom -- |
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:21:47 -0400, HarryKrause wrote: On a sailboat, your stability comes from the weight in your keel working against the lateral push from your sails. Perhaps a "built-down" ferro sailboat hull might have significant stability, but I'd rather enjoy the ride on a properly keeled glass sailboat of the same size class. But those liberty ships were pretty neat, too. I remember coming into Wilmington, NC as a kid and seeing Liberty Ships moored in the Cape Fear River as far as the eye could see.... Neat stories about their construction, too, from my dad. He worked at Newport News building them, until he was conscripted in WWII. Liberty ships were steel, as well as the Victory ships. My dad spent the war building them in Richmond, CA and my mom spent the time as a nurse at the shipyard hospital. The hospital became the first Kaiser hospital. I remember the small stamped models that we had at home. Probably worth a lot of money now. First boat I got to pilot. ;) |
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:16:54 +0000, Bill McKee wrote:
Liberty ships were steel, as well as the Victory ships. My dad spent the war building them in Richmond, CA and my mom spent the time as a nurse at the shipyard hospital. The hospital became the first Kaiser hospital. I remember the small stamped models that we had at home. Probably worth a lot of money now. First boat I got to pilot. ;) Liberty ships were steel, but, interestingly, we did make some ferro-cement ships in both world wars. One of the down sides of ferro-cement is that they don't take an impact very well. I'd hate to think what a torpedo would do to one. http://www.concreteships.org/ships/ww1/ http://www.concreteships.org/ships/ww2/ |
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:33:18 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote: On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:16:54 GMT, "Bill McKee" wrote: "Gene Kearns" wrote in message . .. Neat stories about their construction, too, from my dad. He worked at Newport News building them, until he was conscripted in WWII. Liberty ships were steel, as well as the Victory ships. My dad spent the war building them in Richmond, CA and my mom spent the time as a nurse at the shipyard hospital. The hospital became the first Kaiser hospital. I remember the small stamped models that we had at home. Probably worth a lot of money now. First boat I got to pilot. ;) I have to assume that he saw what he saw... Apparently, as steel became scarce they, experimented with other forms of material. One of the stories he recounted was the, to him, excessive number of hours spent in vibrating the mix in the mold.... sometimes two shifts. He always expected to see the hull come out with aggregate on the bottom and sand and cement on top.... though he never saw one come out that way. I assume vibrating a steel ship would just be loud.... That same technique was used on Hoover Dam. When we were out there a few years ago, one of the documentaries we saw mentioned that sometimes whole gangs of ten/fifteen men would continuously vibrate the cement mixture for as long as 36 hours. |
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:52:41 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote: On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:12:37 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing wrote: That same technique was used on Hoover Dam. When we were out there a few years ago, one of the documentaries we saw mentioned that sometimes whole gangs of ten/fifteen men would continuously vibrate the cement mixture for as long as 36 hours. WOW..... I wonder how one judges the extent needed? the bubbles stop coming up. -- John H. On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD |
Shortwave Sportfishing ) wrote:
: On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:33:18 GMT, Gene Kearns : wrote: : On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:16:54 GMT, "Bill McKee" : wrote: : : : "Gene Kearns" wrote in message : . .. : : Neat stories about their construction, too, from my dad. He worked at : Newport News building them, until he was conscripted in WWII. : : Liberty ships were steel, as well as the Victory ships. My dad spent the : war building them in Richmond, CA and my mom spent the time as a nurse at : the shipyard hospital. The hospital became the first Kaiser hospital. I : remember the small stamped models that we had at home. Probably worth a lot : of money now. First boat I got to pilot. ;) : : : I have to assume that he saw what he saw... : : Apparently, as steel became scarce they, experimented with other forms : of material. One of the stories he recounted was the, to him, : excessive number of hours spent in vibrating the mix in the mold.... : sometimes two shifts. He always expected to see the hull come out with : aggregate on the bottom and sand and cement on top.... though he never : saw one come out that way. : : I assume vibrating a steel ship would just be loud.... : That same technique was used on Hoover Dam. When we were out there a : few years ago, one of the documentaries we saw mentioned that : sometimes whole gangs of ten/fifteen men would continuously vibrate : the cement mixture for as long as 36 hours. Any application of cement requires vibrating it to get the air bubbles out for a smooth consistant pore. Back to my original posting. I guess nobody knows of any boats that were scuttled and left in a field somewhere. I'd like to get one about 50'LOA. I just missed out on a deal last may on a 50' coastal cruiser, nice boat. It had a new coat of bottom and hull paint, engine was end of life, no interior, decking, or rigging. It would have been a big job to refit it. If anyone knew of something similar I'd like to hear about it. Tom -- |
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"Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:16:54 GMT, "Bill McKee" wrote: "Gene Kearns" wrote in message . .. Neat stories about their construction, too, from my dad. He worked at Newport News building them, until he was conscripted in WWII. Liberty ships were steel, as well as the Victory ships. My dad spent the war building them in Richmond, CA and my mom spent the time as a nurse at the shipyard hospital. The hospital became the first Kaiser hospital. I remember the small stamped models that we had at home. Probably worth a lot of money now. First boat I got to pilot. ;) I have to assume that he saw what he saw... Apparently, as steel became scarce they, experimented with other forms of material. One of the stories he recounted was the, to him, excessive number of hours spent in vibrating the mix in the mold.... sometimes two shifts. He always expected to see the hull come out with aggregate on the bottom and sand and cement on top.... though he never saw one come out that way. I assume vibrating a steel ship would just be loud.... There were concrete ships made, just not Liberty or Victory ships. They were also made in WW-1. One was never used as the war ended and was bought and towed to the beach south of Santa Cruz, CA. Was fishing pier, dance hall for a coupe of years. About 1928-1930. You can see it at Sea Cliff Beach State Park. |
"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On 2 Aug 2005 09:35:11 -0800, (Thomas D. Ireland) wrote: Any application of cement requires vibrating it to get the air bubbles out for a smooth consistant pore. Back to my original posting. I guess nobody knows of any boats that were scuttled and left in a field somewhere. I'd like to get one about 50'LOA. I just missed out on a deal last may on a 50' coastal cruiser, nice boat. It had a new coat of bottom and hull paint, engine was end of life, no interior, decking, or rigging. It would have been a big job to refit it. If anyone knew of something similar I'd like to hear about it. I think your freakin' nuts, but that's me. :) Heading out for the evening tide and that world record striper. I'll let you know how I caught it when I get back. 2nd that. Is still a few Ferro-cement boats setting in yards and fields around the SF Bay area. I went fishing on Sunday. Couple of nice rock cod and couple of nice ling cod. through back 3 legal size lings, and lost either a large Ling or Halibut when the line got sliced by a tooth. I think from the way it fought it was probably an 18-20# halli. |
As I recall, ferro yachts are generally constructed by spraying a concrete
mixture onto an armature which then becomes the rebar for the structure. I believe a similar technique is used on some swimming pools. Spraycrete? Seems close but wrong??? Ferro ships must have been nightmares to build if forms were used. Seems to me to be virtually impossible to do a complete hull in one form. If the hull was made in sections joing the sections would have presented sn interesting problem. Managing the reinforcing inner structure must have been another interesting challange. I think if I wanted a quick and dirty large yacht requiring minimum skills, reasonable completion time and lowest cost I'd build of welded steel for the hull deck and superstructure. Probably use wood for all the interior finishing. With CAD one could even have all the steel cut to shape and delivered ready to bend and weld. Any medium sized yard could do it. Butch "Bill McKee" wrote in message nk.net... "Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:16:54 GMT, "Bill McKee" wrote: "Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... Neat stories about their construction, too, from my dad. He worked at Newport News building them, until he was conscripted in WWII. Liberty ships were steel, as well as the Victory ships. My dad spent the war building them in Richmond, CA and my mom spent the time as a nurse at the shipyard hospital. The hospital became the first Kaiser hospital. I remember the small stamped models that we had at home. Probably worth a lot of money now. First boat I got to pilot. ;) I have to assume that he saw what he saw... Apparently, as steel became scarce they, experimented with other forms of material. One of the stories he recounted was the, to him, excessive number of hours spent in vibrating the mix in the mold.... sometimes two shifts. He always expected to see the hull come out with aggregate on the bottom and sand and cement on top.... though he never saw one come out that way. I assume vibrating a steel ship would just be loud.... There were concrete ships made, just not Liberty or Victory ships. They were also made in WW-1. One was never used as the war ended and was bought and towed to the beach south of Santa Cruz, CA. Was fishing pier, dance hall for a coupe of years. About 1928-1930. You can see it at Sea Cliff Beach State Park. |
HarryKrause ) wrote: : Thomas D. Ireland wrote: : HarryKrause ) wrote: : : Gene Kearns wrote: : : On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:28:49 GMT, "Butch Davis" : : wrote: : : . : : At the time he finished the project he told me it was about four times as : : much work and expense as he had estimated when he began. He told me he : : would never again try to restore a ferrocement boat and that he believed it : : would have been cheaper, faster and easier to start from scratch with a new : : armature. : : : : : : I can't imagine delving into such a repair without significant and : : expensive NDI equipment. How one could determine the condition of the : : "ferro" inside the cement without such is beyond me.... and *not* : : determining it would yield a finished job with no guarantee of : : structural integrity. : : : : There would be enough challenges involved in restoring a fiberglass or : : wooden boat... if you just need a hobby. : : : : If you want to actually go boating.... get a fixer upper. Come to : : think of it, even a new boat, trailer, motor combination has enough : : upkeep to classify as a hobby.... : : : : ...YMMV.... : : : : : I cannot imagine why anyone would want to build or buy a ferrocement : : tub. Wood is the way to go, if your starting from scratch, and several : : posters here and in other boating groups have shared great photos and : : stories with us of boats they have built of wood, wood-epoxy, wood : : sheathed in fiberglass and fiberglass. Even if you want to build a : : honking big sailboat, you can buy a fiberglass hull, finish it off, and : : have a nice boat. : : I think I would like the stability a heavy boat would offer. It would be a : much nicer ride I think. There are lots of pros and cons though. : : Tom : : -- : On a sailboat, your stability comes from the weight in your keel working : against the lateral push from your sails. Perhaps a "built-down" ferro : sailboat hull might have significant stability, but I'd rather enjoy the : ride on a properly keeled glass sailboat of the same size class. -- If you want to go first class all the way it is going to cost you. I want to get value for my dollar and this seemed to be good way to do that. My 2C worth! Tom |
My closest memories to that would be seeing a bay chocked with wooden
built PT boats and the sky full of aircraft like an airborn hive of bees. Tom Gene Kearns ) wrote: : On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:21:47 -0400, HarryKrause : wrote: : : : On a sailboat, your stability comes from the weight in your keel working : against the lateral push from your sails. Perhaps a "built-down" ferro : sailboat hull might have significant stability, but I'd rather enjoy the : ride on a properly keeled glass sailboat of the same size class. : But those liberty ships were pretty neat, too. I remember coming into : Wilmington, NC as a kid and seeing Liberty Ships moored in the Cape : Fear River as far as the eye could see.... : Neat stories about their construction, too, from my dad. He worked at : Newport News building them, until he was conscripted in WWII. -- |
Gene Kearns ) wrote:
: On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:06:04 GMT, "Butch Davis" : wrote: : As I recall, ferro yachts are generally constructed by spraying a concrete : mixture onto an armature which then becomes the rebar for the structure. I : believe a similar technique is used on some swimming pools. Spraycrete? : Seems close but wrong??? : : Gunnite... Gunnite is correct, for a minute I couldn't remember what it was called! Tom : or shotcrete. : -- : _ ___c : \ _| \_ : __\_| oooo \_____ : ~~~~|______________/ ~~~~~ : ~~~ ~~~~~~ : ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ : ~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ : Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC. : http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/ Homepage* : http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide -- |
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