Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

We recently had a discussion regarding whether or not it was "deceptive" to
refer to the speed of a boat in MPH rather than knots.

I spent time this afternoon at a gathering that included a bunch of ex hydro
drivers. As somebody said, "The old drivers are easy to pick out of the crowd,
they're the guys who are walking with limps."

Best line of the afternoon, "All you need to know to drive one of these boats
is to go fast, and turn left." Um hmm, sure.

Learned two things.

1) In about two weeks, there will be a brand new hydroplane and race boat
museum opening in Kent, WA. There are a lot of vintage boats here in the NW,
and an active group of guys who rebuild and restore them. The boats will rotate
through the museum so that the display keeps changing. One of the ways the
museum hopes to support itself will be hosting class reunions for graduates
from the glory days of thunderboat racing here in the NW. Wayne Hill, VP of the
museum, told me "We can provide a boat from just about any year in the 50's,
60's, and 70's. The classmates can have pictures taken with boats that were
making local headlines when they graduated."

2) Those deceptive hydroplane drivers discuss speeds in MPH. :-)

At the get together today, Craig McCaw's restored 1959 Miss Bardahl was looking
sharp! A dark green hull so flawlessly maintained it could be used for a
mirror. One of the Budweiser boats was also on hand, and is available for
sale.
I hate to think what it would cost to pump fuel into that 12-cylinder aircraft
engine, but a guy would certainly be king of the lake almost anywhere he went.

I did misunderstand the invitation, however. I was looking forward to an
"armadillo barbecue" (never having eaten an armadillo), but it turned out that
the name of the company that catered Billy Schumacher's event was "Armadillo
Barbecue." Oh well, the chicken and ribs were both delicious. :-)

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

On 16 May 2004 01:47:23 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:
I spent time this afternoon at a gathering that included a bunch of ex hydro
drivers. As somebody said, "The old drivers are easy to pick out of the crowd,
they're the guys who are walking with limps."

========================================

I met an ex hydro driver this spring who had blown over backwards at
somewhere around 200 mph. He had more than just a limp, but also a
lot of great stories. That said, none of these guys do any serious
navigating and their opinion of knots vs mph doesn't count for much in
my book. Most of them run on protected inland waters and have
probably never looked at a chart. The only people who like mph are
inland boaters, and those who'd like to inflate their numbers.

Maybe I'm wrong Chuck but I've never thought of you as an inland
boater.

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

The only people who like mph are
inland boaters, and those who'd like to inflate their numbers.

This poor horse is going to get beat to death.

If you walked into a donut shop and asked,
"How much for a half dozen maple bars?"
and the donut kid answered, "Sir, I'll sell you six maple bars for $4," is he
trying to make you think you're getting more fatty poison than you're paying
for? After all, the word "six" represents a higher number than the term
"one-half".

No. You're using two different standards to express the same thing, and both
are accurate. If you give the kid $4 and he gives you six maple bars instead of
"half a dozen" you would have no basis at all for complaint about the quantity
received.

Now, if the kid tells you he's going to sell you half a dozen for $4, and sacks
up only half a single maple bar instead.......that's deceptive. :-)

Maybe I'm wrong Chuck but I've never thought of you as an inland
boater.

Like the vast majority of boaters in the Pacific NW, I do spend the bulk of my
time in "Inland Waters". Inland COLREGS apply everywhere south of a point at
the head of Admiralty Inlet, east of Deception Pass, and all the way up the lee
side of Vancouver Island. The most time I ever spend in a typical year in any
area not considered "inland" is on the occassion or two that I might cross the
Strait of Juan de Fuca rather than do an end run up the lee side of Whidbey
Island.

We can and do experience some lumpy
conditions at times, with steep waves at short intervals. Am I, or most boaters
in the Pacific NW, routinely braving 6-7 foot
breaking waves and flying spray? No. Been there, proved my boat is capable of
handling it, and would prefer to avoid frequent repetitions of same. If I'm
heading north and the Strait is a snarly mess, I'm not too proud to run up the
inside. As I have often told the Mrs. when we're pounding through head seas and
collecting
eel grass in the windshield wipers.. "All that screaming isn't helping a damn
thing."

My little tug travels in knots. Heck, you could multiply some of my cruise
speeds by 1.15 and still wind up with single digits.

A whizzy express cruiser zipping along on plane can be accurately logged in
either MPH or knots, and as long as the standard being used is disclosed there
is
no element of deception involved.

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

On 16 May 2004 01:47:23 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

snip a bunch of good stuff

I did misunderstand the invitation, however. I was looking forward to an
"armadillo barbecue" (never having eaten an armadillo), but it turned out that
the name of the company that catered Billy Schumacher's event was "Armadillo
Barbecue." Oh well, the chicken and ribs were both delicious. :-)


It's probably just as well about the armadillo because a lot of
armadillos carry leprosy. They don't get it, they just carry it.
Mark E. Williams

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

This brings back some good memories of the Gold Cup on the Detroit
River. Back in 1968, I was given free tickets to the Gold Cup Race. We
were at the starting line in Waterworks Park and had a great view of the
race. I still remember Bill Schumaker (Miss Bardahl) and Bill Sterrit
(Miss Budweiser) going bow to bow for 3 laps in the final heat. Bud
finally took some water on the engine and faltered, allowing Miss
Bardahl to win. The low note was that retired Col. Gardner was killed
when the Eagle Electric boat pitch-poled in the final heat. I hadn't
heard Bill Schumakers name mentioned in a long time. Bardahl got out of
racing after the 1968 season, but I think Schumaker drove for another
sponsor for a few more years. ....not sure about that, tho.

MPH v. Knots.... perhaps because the races are ran on inland waters
and the inland charts are in statute miles rather that nautical.

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

I hadn't
heard Bill Schumakers name mentioned in a long time.

He's now the Pro-Line dealer in Seattle. He owns a company called Sport Boat
Northwest.

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

On 16 May 2004 04:17:38 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:
Like the vast majority of boaters in the Pacific NW, I do spend the bulk of my
time in "Inland Waters". Inland COLREGS apply everywhere south of a point at
the head of Admiralty Inlet, east of Deception Pass, and all the way up the lee
side of Vancouver Island.

====================================

In the spirit of ensuring a totally lifeless horse, the key thing is
the distance scale on your charts. If the distance scale is in
statute miles, i.e., 5280 feet - then you are an inland boater. I
suspect your charts are otherwise and so also should your boat reports
except for the dinkiest lake craft.

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

Wayne.B wrote:

the key thing is the distance scale on your charts.

??????????

If the distance scale is in
statute miles, i.e., 5280 feet - then you are an inland boater. I
suspect your charts are otherwise and so also should your boat reports
except for the dinkiest lake craft.

Even dead horses can kick ...

Charts for Puget Sound depict inland waters - and - are printed with a
scale in nautical miles.

Just as Chuck stated, "Inland COLREGS apply everywhere south of a
point at the head of Admiralty Inlet, east of Deception Pass, and all
the way up the lee side of Vancouver Island."

The chart for Lake Washington Ship Canal and Lake Washington (18447)
provides a scale for nautical, statute, and yards ... the "key thing"
that determines "inland" is the COLREGS, not the chart scale.

Rick

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

On Mon, 17 May 2004 00:32:37 GMT, Rick
wrote:

The chart for Lake Washington Ship Canal and Lake Washington (18447)
provides a scale for nautical, statute, and yards ... the "key thing"
that determines "inland" is the COLREGS, not the chart scale.

==============================================

For COLREGS purposes you are correct of course and the issue was never
in dispute.

For the purpose of disuading Chuck from reporting boat performance
numbers in mph when he most surely knows better, then I am correct.
:-)

As an FYI, Mrs B and I have gone to contract on a GB 49. The survey
and sea trial are scheduled for tomorrow, full newsgroup reports to
follow soon thereafter. Performance will be reported in kts of
course. The numbers will be low anyway you slice them but it will
travel at those speeds for a LOOOONG time without a fuel stop.

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

In the spirit of ensuring a totally lifeless horse, the key thing is
the distance scale on your charts. If the distance scale is in
statute miles, i.e., 5280 feet - then you are an inland boater. I
suspect your charts are otherwise and so also should your boat reports
except for the dinkiest lake craft.


So you're saying it's OK, in your book, to use MPH on an inland lake? Does
Lake Washington count?

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

As an FYI, Mrs B and I have gone to contract on a GB 49.

Hey! Nice boat. The Classic or the aft-cabin model?

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

Gould 0738 wrote:
The only people who like mph are
inland boaters, and those who'd like to inflate their numbers.


This poor horse is going to get beat to death.

If you walked into a donut shop and asked,
"How much for a half dozen maple bars?"
and the donut kid answered, "Sir, I'll sell you six maple bars for $4," is he
trying to make you think you're getting more fatty poison than you're paying
for? After all, the word "six" represents a higher number than the term
"one-half".

No. You're using two different standards to express the same thing, and both
are accurate. If you give the kid $4 and he gives you six maple bars instead of
"half a dozen" you would have no basis at all for complaint about the quantity
received.

Now, if the kid tells you he's going to sell you half a dozen for $4, and sacks
up only half a single maple bar instead.......that's deceptive. :-)


Maybe I'm wrong Chuck but I've never thought of you as an inland
boater.


Like the vast majority of boaters in the Pacific NW, I do spend the bulk of my
time in "Inland Waters". Inland COLREGS apply everywhere south of a point at
the head of Admiralty Inlet, east of Deception Pass, and all the way up the lee
side of Vancouver Island. The most time I ever spend in a typical year in any
area not considered "inland" is on the occassion or two that I might cross the
Strait of Juan de Fuca rather than do an end run up the lee side of Whidbey
Island.

We can and do experience some lumpy
conditions at times, with steep waves at short intervals. Am I, or most boaters
in the Pacific NW, routinely braving 6-7 foot
breaking waves and flying spray? No. Been there, proved my boat is capable of
handling it, and would prefer to avoid frequent repetitions of same. If I'm
heading north and the Strait is a snarly mess, I'm not too proud to run up the
inside. As I have often told the Mrs. when we're pounding through head seas and
collecting
eel grass in the windshield wipers.. "All that screaming isn't helping a damn
thing."

My little tug travels in knots. Heck, you could multiply some of my cruise
speeds by 1.15 and still wind up with single digits.

A whizzy express cruiser zipping along on plane can be accurately logged in
either MPH or knots, and as long as the standard being used is disclosed there
is
no element of deception involved.


You've missed the point Chuck.

(i) "Charts" are in nautical miles (1 min of latitude) so if you are
traveling true nth/sth then you can translate you speed in knots X the
time at that speed directly onto the chart as your distance traveled
(save currents etc etc ).

(ii) Traveling east west, then a minute of longitude is only 1 nautical
mile when you are on the equator. That's why "charts" have a different
scale for the longitude at each particular latitude, so you can
determine distances with dividers if you so wish.

(iii) To determine distance off or traveled or much else any
distance/speed etc relative to a "chart" in a marine environment, you
need to calculate it with any of the myriad spherical triangle formulas
(say diff lat X secant course), because you rarely travel far directly
true nth/sth or est/wst, most tracks are an amalgam of latitude (@ 1 min
= 1 n/mile) & longitude (@ various & constantly varying as your latitude
changes)

(iv) Most charts (not all) are mercator projection, which somewhat
distort (particularly in higher latitudes where you are), however so
long as everyone uses n/miles then the diam of the earth ensures we all
get the same answers.

(v) Miles kilometers etc are used on "maps" & for runabouts etc where
it's not really important.

If a boat is used as a real boat the speed should be expressed in
knots, it's just so embarrassing when people use MPH because in true
navigation it's as meaningless as m/s, or chains per hour, both are a
true measure of the boat's progress through the water, but not much use
when assessing the progress of a boat on a chart.

Deceptive boat broker types usually have no clue as to the subtle but
most important difference between knots & MPH so instinctively spruik
the higher number & lower fuel consumption number. Some don't do it
deliberately it's just how they make their way through life.

K

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

On Mon, 17 May 2004 08:44:31 -0400 (EDT), "Harry Krause"
wrote:

K. Smith wrote:


If a boat is used as a real boat the speed should be expressed in
knots, it's just so embarrassing when people use MPH because in true
navigation it's as meaningless as m/s, or chains per hour, both are a
true measure of the boat's progress through the water, but not much use
when assessing the progress of a boat on a chart.


Yet another "krock'o'krap" from Karen Smith of Oz.

"If a boat is used as a real boat..." is a phase "she" often uses that
begs definition. It implies, perhaps, that only long distance cruising
is meaningful boating. Even seen Smith's boat? The harbormaster in her
home port assigned it derelict status.

Miles per hour, knots, whatever. It really doesn't matter. What matters
is getting out and having fun on your boat.

For once, I agree with Harry. Only those who become hung up on
terminology (Which is borne from elitism) make such a big deal about
the "proper" usage thereof.

While a true blue water sailer or commercial captain may have a
navigational reason for using one term over another, the fact remains
that most recreational boaters only have a casual interest in speed.
They tend to notice when the number falls off appreciably from what
they used to achieve.

Maybe the boat manufacturers are partly top blame as they equip most
boats with speedometers (however inaccurate they may be) calibrated in
MPH. Most boaters also drive cars, so they are better able to relate
to the more familiar MPH standard.

Dave

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
In the spirit of ensuring a totally lifeless horse, the key thing is
the distance scale on your charts. If the distance scale is in
statute miles, i.e., 5280 feet - then you are an inland boater. I
suspect your charts are otherwise and so also should your boat reports
except for the dinkiest lake craft.


So you're saying it's OK, in your book, to use MPH on an inland lake?
Does
Lake Washington count?



People that are not necessarily boaters are the hydro spectators. Whether
they are unlimiteds or crackerbox boats. They run in circles. All people
understand MPH, but most do not understand Knots is reference to speed.

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

On 17 May 2004 04:23:53 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

As an FYI, Mrs B and I have gone to contract on a GB 49.

Hey! Nice boat. The Classic or the aft-cabin model?

==========================================

It's a 1981 Classic with twin DD 671N engines, twin generators, Naiad
stabilizers, Robertson autopilot and a few other goodies. The survey
and sea trial went fairly well today but there are some items that
will need to be negotiated. We'll have the written survey reports and
the oil analysis by end of week. The fuel tanks are being pressure
tested as we speak, with results expected in a few days. It's quite a
different ride compared to the Bertram 33 sportfish that I just sold,
but a LOT more fuel efficient, and still fast compared to all of my
previous sail boats.

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

On 17 May 2004 04:19:54 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

So you're saying it's OK, in your book, to use MPH on an inland lake? Does
Lake Washington count?

================================================== ==

No, it's too close to salt water and anyone who lives near there
should know better.

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

On Mon, 17 May 2004 22:40:21 +1000, "K. Smith"
wrote:

when people use MPH because in true
navigation it's as meaningless as m/s, or chains per hour,

===========================================

Or furlongs per fortnight...

Deceptive hydro drivers :-), New museum.
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2004 22:40:21 +1000, "K. Smith"
wrote:


when people use MPH because in true
navigation it's as meaningless as m/s, or chains per hour,


===========================================

Or furlongs per fortnight...


In truth, the use of "m/s" is becoming quite common in some "marine"
sectors.