With all due respect Chuck, the troops are the war. You can't hate
one and love the other - they are one and the same.

**********
And with equal respect, that's not correct.

Surely you remember Viet Nam?

By the end of that mess, something like 80% of the public was sick of
either the flawed motivations for the war or the inept way it was being
prosecuted. When the troops came home, the were often shunned, and
sometimes even abused, by a portion of the people who opposed the war
that the troops had been sent to fight. That was wrong, but the excuse
that the bad actors who gave the troops such grief when they arrived at
home relied on *exactly* the same
logic, (in reverse). "The troops are the war. They cannot be separated.
If you support the troops you must support the war, and if you oppose
the war you cannot respect the draftees that were
hauled off to fight in it."

One of the lessons we should have learned from Viet Nam is that the
troops don't make the policy, they simply go where they are sent and do
the job they are ordered to do. I don't blame the troops for the war
in Iraq. Nobody yearns for peace more than a soldier. I can freely say,
"Mr or Ms Troop, while I disagree with the national foreign policy that
has sent you to fight in Iraq I respect your service to your country
and that you are obeying your orders to do your duty
in a perilous situation. I wish you a safe, and speedy, return."

Neither side should stoop to using the men and women serving in the
armed forces as pawns in the propaganda war concerning whether our
invasion and continued occupation of Iraq was (or continues to be) a
good or necessary thing that actually defends the American homeland.
That debate can go on without using the troops as whipping boys.

And you complain about *others* ruining perfectly fine threads Chuck?

This thread *was* about 2 young men, both Marines, that I am proud of yet
you had to turn it into a political one about the war.

Pretty pathetic Chuck.

Pretty pathetic Chuck.


*********

Which did you find more pathetic, JimH.

My remark that the job the troops were doing in Iraq was "heroic", or
my characterization of
thier deaths, mutilations, and multiple extensions of duty tours as
"national tragedies"?

wrote in message
oups.com...

And you complain about *others* ruining perfectly fine threads Chuck?

This thread *was* about 2 young men, both Marines, that I am proud of yet
you had to turn it into a political one about the war.

Pretty pathetic Chuck.


*********

Which did you find more pathetic, JimH.

My remark that the job the troops were doing in Iraq was "heroic", or
my characterization of
thier deaths, mutilations, and multiple extensions of duty tours as
"national tragedies"?


I already told you. You chose not to listen.

JimH wrote:

I already told you. You chose not to listen.

*******

No, you didn't.

The only response you made in this thread was:


And you complain about *others* ruining perfectly fine threads Chuck?


This thread *was* about 2 young men, both Marines, that I am proud of
yet
you had to turn it into a political one about the war.


Pretty pathetic Chuck.


*********************

You stated that no matter how one felt about the war, they should
support the troops.
I agreed, and said that while I am against the war I honor the courage
and sacrifice of the troops being ordered to do their duty there. You
responded by charging me with turning your
off-topic thread into an off-topic political thread (thereby ruining
it), and classifying my behavior as pathetic.

So I repeat my question: Which statement did you find more pathetic?

And no, you haven't answered.

wrote in message
oups.com...
JimH wrote:

I already told you. You chose not to listen.

*******

No, you didn't.

The only response you made in this thread was:


And you complain about *others* ruining perfectly fine threads Chuck?


This thread *was* about 2 young men, both Marines, that I am proud of
yet
you had to turn it into a political one about the war.


Pretty pathetic Chuck.


*********************

You stated that no matter how one felt about the war, they should
support the troops.
I agreed, and said that while I am against the war I honor the courage
and sacrifice of the troops being ordered to do their duty there. You
responded by charging me with turning your
off-topic thread into an off-topic political thread (thereby ruining
it), and classifying my behavior as pathetic.

So I repeat my question: Which statement did you find more pathetic?

And no, you haven't answered.


I find the fact the you ruined a nice thread pathetic.

*JimH* Jun 18, 1:30 pm show options

Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: "*JimH*" - Find messages by this author
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:30:50 -0400
Local: Sat,Jun 18 2005 1:30 pm
Subject: A Great Weekend So Far
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wrote in message


oups.com...



- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

JimH wrote:

I already told you. You chose not to listen.


*******


No, you didn't.


The only response you made in this thread was:


And you complain about *others* ruining perfectly fine threads Chuck?


This thread *was* about 2 young men, both Marines, that I am proud of
yet
you had to turn it into a political one about the war.


Pretty pathetic Chuck.


*********************


You stated that no matter how one felt about the war, they should
support the troops.
I agreed, and said that while I am against the war I honor the courage
and sacrifice of the troops being ordered to do their duty there. You
responded by charging me with turning your
off-topic thread into an off-topic political thread (thereby ruining
it), and classifying my behavior as pathetic.


So I repeat my question: Which statement did you find more pathetic?


And no, you haven't answered.



I find the fact the you ruined a nice thread pathetic.

*******

I "ruined" your thread by agreeing with you? Yeah, I guess that
probably would just about ruin it as far as you're concerned.

*JimH* wrote:

I find the fact the you ruined a nice thread pathetic.

You're just mad because Chuck saw right through you. Being proud of
someone is one thing, but I'll bet you wouldn't have posted those same
exact words if he was in the service under a democratic president. So,
YOU made it a political thread.

On 18 Jun 2005 09:06:11 -0700, wrote:

With all due respect Chuck, the troops are the war. You can't hate
one and love the other - they are one and the same.

**********
And with equal respect, that's not correct.

Surely you remember Viet Nam?

I was there.- '67 through ''69 - 1st Marine Division.

By the end of that mess, something like 80% of the public was sick of
either the flawed motivations for the war or the inept way it was being
prosecuted. When the troops came home, the were often shunned, and
sometimes even abused, by a portion of the people who opposed the war
that the troops had been sent to fight. That was wrong, but the excuse
that the bad actors who gave the troops such grief when they arrived at
home relied on *exactly* the same
logic, (in reverse). "The troops are the war. They cannot be separated.
If you support the troops you must support the war, and if you oppose
the war you cannot respect the draftees that were
hauled off to fight in it."

And they were exactly right.

One of the lessons we should have learned from Viet Nam is that the
troops don't make the policy, they simply go where they are sent and do
the job they are ordered to do. I don't blame the troops for the war
in Iraq. Nobody yearns for peace more than a soldier. I can freely say,
"Mr or Ms Troop, while I disagree with the national foreign policy that
has sent you to fight in Iraq I respect your service to your country
and that you are obeying your orders to do your duty
in a perilous situation. I wish you a safe, and speedy, return."

Wishing somebody a safe and speedy return is entirely different from
honoring and respecting the very people who are paid to kill people
and break stuff. That's most of the problem I see when I talk to
troopers who return - the problem of reconciling the warrior's code
with peace, love and happiness.

You cannot separate the two - war is the army - it's the reason an
army exists - it has no other function in society. It's been that way
since the first protohumans began fighting over the T REX that one
gang found and killed. Sometimes it takes an old grunt like me to put
it into perspective for them.

I've spent a lot of time studying war and have come to believe that it
is the essential state of civilization - without it, we would still be
living in caves. All things are, in fact, conflict of one sort or
another after all.

I suspect that we will not come to a meeting of the minds on this
issue, so we will have to agree to disagree. :)

All the best,

Tom

wrote in message
ups.com...
With all due respect Chuck, the troops are the war. You can't hate
one and love the other - they are one and the same.

**********
And with equal respect, that's not correct.

Surely you remember Viet Nam?

As unpopular as you *claim* that this war in Iraq is, the soldiers continue
to come home to a hero's welcome all over the country. You will stand in a
very small minority if you continue to denigrate the job that they're doing
over there.