John H wrote:

On second thought, I have to disagree with you. I was not in favor of
going to
war in Iraq, but I do think the troops are doing commendable work over
there.
When fire fighters go to fight a fire, we don't have to be in favor of
the fire
to commend the fire fighters.

*******

Nicely said.

With all due respect Chuck, the troops are the war. You can't hate
one and love the other - they are one and the same.

**********
And with equal respect, that's not correct.

Surely you remember Viet Nam?

By the end of that mess, something like 80% of the public was sick of
either the flawed motivations for the war or the inept way it was being
prosecuted. When the troops came home, the were often shunned, and
sometimes even abused, by a portion of the people who opposed the war
that the troops had been sent to fight. That was wrong, but the excuse
that the bad actors who gave the troops such grief when they arrived at
home relied on *exactly* the same
logic, (in reverse). "The troops are the war. They cannot be separated.
If you support the troops you must support the war, and if you oppose
the war you cannot respect the draftees that were
hauled off to fight in it."

One of the lessons we should have learned from Viet Nam is that the
troops don't make the policy, they simply go where they are sent and do
the job they are ordered to do. I don't blame the troops for the war
in Iraq. Nobody yearns for peace more than a soldier. I can freely say,
"Mr or Ms Troop, while I disagree with the national foreign policy that
has sent you to fight in Iraq I respect your service to your country
and that you are obeying your orders to do your duty
in a perilous situation. I wish you a safe, and speedy, return."

Neither side should stoop to using the men and women serving in the
armed forces as pawns in the propaganda war concerning whether our
invasion and continued occupation of Iraq was (or continues to be) a
good or necessary thing that actually defends the American homeland.
That debate can go on without using the troops as whipping boys.

And you complain about *others* ruining perfectly fine threads Chuck?

This thread *was* about 2 young men, both Marines, that I am proud of yet
you had to turn it into a political one about the war.

Pretty pathetic Chuck.

Pretty pathetic Chuck.


*********

Which did you find more pathetic, JimH.

My remark that the job the troops were doing in Iraq was "heroic", or
my characterization of
thier deaths, mutilations, and multiple extensions of duty tours as
"national tragedies"?

On 18 Jun 2005 09:06:11 -0700, wrote:

With all due respect Chuck, the troops are the war. You can't hate
one and love the other - they are one and the same.

**********
And with equal respect, that's not correct.

Surely you remember Viet Nam?

I was there.- '67 through ''69 - 1st Marine Division.

By the end of that mess, something like 80% of the public was sick of
either the flawed motivations for the war or the inept way it was being
prosecuted. When the troops came home, the were often shunned, and
sometimes even abused, by a portion of the people who opposed the war
that the troops had been sent to fight. That was wrong, but the excuse
that the bad actors who gave the troops such grief when they arrived at
home relied on *exactly* the same
logic, (in reverse). "The troops are the war. They cannot be separated.
If you support the troops you must support the war, and if you oppose
the war you cannot respect the draftees that were
hauled off to fight in it."

And they were exactly right.

One of the lessons we should have learned from Viet Nam is that the
troops don't make the policy, they simply go where they are sent and do
the job they are ordered to do. I don't blame the troops for the war
in Iraq. Nobody yearns for peace more than a soldier. I can freely say,
"Mr or Ms Troop, while I disagree with the national foreign policy that
has sent you to fight in Iraq I respect your service to your country
and that you are obeying your orders to do your duty
in a perilous situation. I wish you a safe, and speedy, return."

Wishing somebody a safe and speedy return is entirely different from
honoring and respecting the very people who are paid to kill people
and break stuff. That's most of the problem I see when I talk to
troopers who return - the problem of reconciling the warrior's code
with peace, love and happiness.

You cannot separate the two - war is the army - it's the reason an
army exists - it has no other function in society. It's been that way
since the first protohumans began fighting over the T REX that one
gang found and killed. Sometimes it takes an old grunt like me to put
it into perspective for them.

I've spent a lot of time studying war and have come to believe that it
is the essential state of civilization - without it, we would still be
living in caves. All things are, in fact, conflict of one sort or
another after all.

I suspect that we will not come to a meeting of the minds on this
issue, so we will have to agree to disagree. :)

All the best,

Tom

wrote in message
ups.com...
With all due respect Chuck, the troops are the war. You can't hate
one and love the other - they are one and the same.

**********
And with equal respect, that's not correct.

Surely you remember Viet Nam?

As unpopular as you *claim* that this war in Iraq is, the soldiers continue
to come home to a hero's welcome all over the country. You will stand in a
very small minority if you continue to denigrate the job that they're doing
over there.

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 17 Jun 2005 21:32:26 -0700, wrote:

Screw the war, but honor the troops.

With all due respect Chuck, the troops are the war. You can't hate
one and love the other - they are one and the same.

Sure one can! While I have respect for the soldiers that were put in
harm's way by Bush, I think that the war they are fighting is riddled
with lies, mistakes, and deceit.

On 20 Jun 2005 05:12:27 -0700, wrote:



Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
On 17 Jun 2005 21:32:26 -0700, wrote:

Screw the war, but honor the troops.

With all due respect Chuck, the troops are the war. You can't hate
one and love the other - they are one and the same.

Sure one can! While I have respect for the soldiers that were put in
harm's way by Bush, I think that the war they are fighting is riddled
with lies, mistakes, and deceit.

Well, I've stated my case. You cannot separate the two - it's
impossible in the legal, logical, moral and ethical frames of
reference. War is the soldier, the soldier is war - ain't no other
way around it.

If you despise war, then you, by extension, cannot anoint the warrior
as somehow being honorable and above the fray - the guns don't fire by
themselves. It is a willful act to aim, squeeze, shoot and kill the
human you are aiming for. Note the kill - as in dead - murder most
foul if you will.

War is war - you can have an honorable war, you can have a
dishonorable war - the difference between the two is ephemeral because
you still have to aim, shoot and kill the enemy - you are still
killing another human being(s).

Took me a long time and some really intense peer therapy to understand
that concept.

And just because I'm in the mood, there is nothing, absolutely
nothing, like the adrenalin rush you get in close quarters combat.
Nothing in the world can match it.

And that's the last I'll say about it.

Later,

Tom

This is just my opinion, but I disgree with the war in Iraq, think we were
lied to by our leaders and should have waited for the United Nations
backing. I do how ever support our troops, they have no choice in the matter
of being over there, putting their lifes in harms way every day every minute
while they are over there. Again, just my view on the war, not asking anyone
to agree or disagree.

Ed
wrote in message
oups.com...
Despite your feelings about the war please keep all our men and women
serving in our Armed Forces in your prayers

*********

The war, along with the people who deliberately lied us into it and are
now profiting from it is crap.

The young men and women who do their duty there
are heroic. Each one killed, wounded, or separated
on multiple extended tours from home and family is a national tragedy.

Screw the war, but honor the troops. It is possible to do both at once.
People who feel that we must despise the troops because they are forced
to serve in a bogus war as well as people who feel that we cannot
respect and value the troops without cheering for the
war itself are all wrong.

"ed" wrote in message
...
This is just my opinion, but I disgree with the war in Iraq, think we were
lied to by our leaders and should have waited for the United Nations
backing. I do how ever support our troops, they have no choice in the
matter of being over there, putting their lifes in harms way every day
every minute while they are over there. Again, just my view on the war,
not asking anyone to agree or disagree.

All of our troops are volunteers. They are in Iraq because they willingly
signed on the dotted line.