Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

BACKGROUND:

As the frequent reader may know, we are building a new trailer for our
boat. It has dual torsion axels, disc brakes on all four wheels, and we
decided on an Atwood brand hydraulic surge-activated brake actuator.

Of course, when backing up a surge actuator will try to put on the
brakes, which is not what you really want. So the model we purchased
has a "lock out" lever. It's a thing on the side that can be pushed down
and into a lock position. It prevents the hitch (ball portion) from pushing
back on the piston that drives the hydraulics.

PROBLEM / QUESTION:

Although the lever-thing sort of locks in place, it does not stay there. It
does
stay to some extent. But if you stop backing up it pops out. So, say you are
backing, then need to pull forward a little to reposition yourself - the
thing
pops out.

Not a huge problem if you have two people and the other person can kind of
watch it -- but is this normal?

I suppose in a way it's good because you can't forget and just
LEAVE it in the locked out position.

Not a big deal, just curious.

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"Gary Warner" wrote in message
news:2g7o7oF5e1unU1@uni-

Of course, when backing up a surge actuator will try to put on the
brakes, which is not what you really want.

My understanding (and limited experience) with surge brakes is that a
certain [adjustable?] amount of decelerative force is required to activate.
Simply backing the trailer at slow speed has never activated any surge
brakes in my experience.

How hard do you plan to accelerate the rig in reverse? :-)

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"Gary Warner" wrote...

BACKGROUND:

As the frequent reader may know, we are building a new trailer for our
boat. It has dual torsion axels, disc brakes on all four wheels, and we
decided on an Atwood brand hydraulic surge-activated brake actuator.

Of course, when backing up a surge actuator will try to put on the
brakes, which is not what you really want. So the model we purchased
has a "lock out" lever. It's a thing on the side that can be pushed down
and into a lock position. It prevents the hitch (ball portion) from pushing
back on the piston that drives the hydraulics.

PROBLEM / QUESTION:

Although the lever-thing sort of locks in place, it does not stay there. It
does
stay to some extent. But if you stop backing up it pops out. So, say you are
backing, then need to pull forward a little to reposition yourself - the
thing
pops out.

Not a huge problem if you have two people and the other person can kind of
watch it -- but is this normal?

I suppose in a way it's good because you can't forget and just
LEAVE it in the locked out position.

Not a big deal, just curious.


I have this Atwood actuator...

http://www.etrailer.com/Merchant2/me...tegory_Code=ba

and had the same problem. It was aggravated by the fact that I have to back the
trailer uphill to put it next to my house. I "solved" the problem by using a
very small bungee cord to hold the latch pin down while backing. The problem
with that is when you forget to remove it before towing again you are without
brakes.

-rick-

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"John Gaquin" wrote in message ...
"Gary Warner" wrote in message
news:2g7o7oF5e1unU1@uni-

Of course, when backing up a surge actuator will try to put on the
brakes, which is not what you really want.

My understanding (and limited experience) with surge brakes is that a
certain [adjustable?] amount of decelerative force is required to activate.

What "decelerative force" is there when you are accelerating? Do you
not think you can accelerate in reverse?

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

Some dealers have told me a coupler is available that doesn't need the
little lockout device.
Can't remember if an extra wire was used from your backlights or whatever.

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

Don White wrote:

Some dealers have told me a coupler is available that doesn't need the
little lockout device.
Can't remember if an extra wire was used from your backlights or whatever.
That would be for electric brakes.
Here the poster is asking about a hydraulic serge brake.
--
_______m___õ¿~___m_________________________
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take,
but by the moments that take our breath away".
--George Carlin--

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"____m___~¿Ô___m____" wrote in message
...
Don White wrote:

Some dealers have told me a coupler is available that doesn't need the
little lockout device.
Can't remember if an extra wire was used from your backlights or
whatever.
That would be for electric brakes.
Here the poster is asking about a hydraulic serge brake.

I currently have hydraulic surge brakes which have no lockout on the
actuator. The brakes (drum brakes) themselves have some sort of feature
that allow backing up. I'll try to find the make/model and give a pointer
later.

As for the original poster and question: for what it's worth, I used to
have the type of surge brake system with a lockout lever on the
coupler/actuator. Just like you describe yours, it really was flakey and
almost unusable - you could put it in the lock position, but almost any
change in speed while backing (for instance speeding up, slowing down,
temporarily stopping, etc, etc. etc!!) would cause it to de-lock. Since I
do 99.9% of backing solo, this made this feature virtually worthless to me
and I simply quit using it. I found that it was not needed in flat areas -
99 % (not quite 99.9) of the backing I did at home, or at the ramp area -
both areas are flat and/or down hill. The occasional parking lots that
required backing are also generally flat. The only time it was a factor was
on the occasional uphill backing, and the lock-out worked OK in those
situations if I kept pressure on the coupler (which is easy when backing up
hill - even when you stop, the pressure remains.).

Hope this helps.
Cam

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

I wrote:

I currently have hydraulic surge brakes which have no lockout on the
actuator. The brakes (drum brakes) themselves have some sort of feature
that allow backing up. I'll try to find the make/model and give a pointer
later.

The coupler/actuator I have is a DICO (or Titan?) model 60 with a universal
coupler. I mention that only because it has no backup/lockout device on
the actuator and this is a hydraulic/mechanical actuator, not electric.

http://www.ne-ts.com/mac/bb/bb-306dico01.jpg

I believe the brakes themselves have what are called "freebacking shoes"
which is the feature I was trying to describe. I have no idea if these kind
of shoes can be installed into any system.

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"Gary Warner" wrote in message
...

BACKGROUND:

As the frequent reader may know, we are building a new trailer for our
boat. It has dual torsion axels, disc brakes on all four wheels, and we
decided on an Atwood brand hydraulic surge-activated brake actuator.

Of course, when backing up a surge actuator will try to put on the
brakes, which is not what you really want. So the model we purchased
has a "lock out" lever. It's a thing on the side that can be pushed down
and into a lock position. It prevents the hitch (ball portion) from
pushing
back on the piston that drives the hydraulics.

PROBLEM / QUESTION:

Although the lever-thing sort of locks in place, it does not stay there.
It
does
stay to some extent. But if you stop backing up it pops out. So, say you
are
backing, then need to pull forward a little to reposition yourself - the
thing
pops out.

Not a huge problem if you have two people and the other person can kind of
watch it -- but is this normal?

I suppose in a way it's good because you can't forget and just
LEAVE it in the locked out position.

Not a big deal, just curious.




Designed that way. Think of the liability claims if a crash, because the
driver forgot to engage the brake lever. Get a backup solenoid for the
brake system. Any place that carries disk brakes will carry the solenoid.
My Dico actuator I just installed, came with the solenoid as it was disk
brake ready. There are two different types. A blocking solenoid and a
bypass unit. The first just blocks the fluid from going to the brakes, the
second, as an extra port and flows the fluid back into the master cylinder
reservoir. They are about $50 and get power from the backup lights of the
row car. Look at Champion trailers supply .com for one.
bill

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"____m___~¿Ô___m____" wrote in message
...
Don White wrote:

Some dealers have told me a coupler is available that doesn't need the
little lockout device.
Can't remember if an extra wire was used from your backlights or
whatever.
That would be for electric brakes.
Here the poster is asking about a hydraulic serge brake.
--
_______m___õ¿~___m_________________________
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take,
but by the moments that take our breath away".
--George Carlin--



http://www.championtrailers.com/REVE...OID_VALVES.HTM

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"John Gaquin" wrote in message
...

My understanding (and limited experience) with surge brakes is that a
certain [adjustable?] amount of decelerative force is required to
activate.

Years ago the surge brake trailer that I was familiar with had a spring that
kept the coupler in the non-braking position. This spring was strong enough
to keep the trailer from "riding the brakes" while going down a hill and
allowed a certain amount of backing.

I don't see that arrangement anymore. The last two trailers that I have had
certainly didn't have any sort of thing. The latest trailer has disc brakes
and they won't allow backing up unless you are backing down a hill!

I miss that spring. Don't know why they went away.

Rod

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"Gary Warner" wrote in message
...

Although the lever-thing sort of locks in place, it does not stay there.
It
does
stay to some extent. But if you stop backing up it pops out. So, say you
are
backing, then need to pull forward a little to reposition yourself - the
thing
pops out.

Not a huge problem if you have two people and the other person can kind of
watch it -- but is this normal?


I suspect that it is some liability issue, or perhaps even some obscure law.
My trailer came with this little bar thingy that you can insert into the
track for the coupler motion to keep it from moving. Just like you describe,
if you pull forward it falls out.

When I complained to the boat dealer they gave me a new one that had another
bar that went over the top of the coupler and would hold it in place. They
said that these were what they used for moving the boats around their lot
and they weren't supposed to sell them to customers, but they would give me
one if I didn't tell anyone where I got it.

Fortunately, I don't have to use mine very often because I have an electric
reverse release built in. It requires a 5 pin light connection so that I can
get the reverse lights to the trailer, but then the reverse lights operate a
solenoid valve on the coupler that keeps the brakes from operating. Works
great as long as I am using the tow vehicle that has the 5 pin connector.
If I use a different car then I have to use the bar thingy.

Rod

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"____m___~¿Ô___m____" wrote in message
...
Can't remember if an extra wire was used from your backlights or
whatever.
That would be for electric brakes.
Here the poster is asking about a hydraulic serge brake.

No, they are available for surge brakes also. I have it on my trailer,
works great.

Here is a link to a place you can buy one:
http://www.championtrailers.com/REVE...OID_VALVES.HTM

Rod

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"-rick-" wrote in message
...

I have this Atwood actuator...


http://www.etrailer.com/Merchant2/me...tegory_Code=ba

and had the same problem. It was aggravated by the fact that I have to
back the
trailer uphill to put it next to my house. I "solved" the problem by
using a
very small bungee cord to hold the latch pin down while backing. The
problem
with that is when you forget to remove it before towing again you are
without
brakes.

-rick-




This looks to be exactly like my actuator. It's nice to know someone else
thinks
this setup is not quite right. I think I'll try to rig up something like you
suggest with
a small bungee cord or something. ~

I'm not too afraid of fogetting. I don't want
to tempt the gods and say I'll never forget...but we tend to be pretty good
at
remembering that type of thing. My general strategy is...once I know
everything
is all good to go (on trailer or boat or whatever) I go through everything
ONE
MORE time.

Thanks,
Gary

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"Camilo" wrote in message
...

I believe the brakes themselves have what are called "freebacking shoes"
which is the feature I was trying to describe. I have no idea if these
kind
of shoes can be installed into any system.

Thanks for your comments. Again, nice to know someone else had problems
with this setup and it's not just that I don't know what the *$&% I'm doing.

In the research I've done when buying all this stuff....I believe that "free
backing"
is for drum brakes only and that there is no equivilent in disc brakes.

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

No, they are available for surge brakes also. I have it on my trailer,
works great.

Here is a link to a place you can buy one:
http://www.championtrailers.com/REVE...OID_VALVES.HTM

Rod



Thanks for the link. Will consider this.

Brake Actuator Comment / Question
 

On Mon, 10 May 2004 15:46:22 -0400, "Gary Warner"
wrote:

Thanks for your comments. Again, nice to know someone else had problems
with this setup and it's not just that I don't know what the *$&% I'm doing.

===================================

What you want is something known as a "backing solenoid" which is
activated by your back up lights. The solenoid activates a valve
which relieves hydraulic pressure and allows backing under any
circumstance. My Load-Rite trailer works this way, and it also has a
pin that you can insert into the coupling mechanism to keep it from
sliding just in case the solenoid is not working for some reason.