Hum, it should not have frozzen if you drained the block. The small plugs
on the sides of the engine block just above the oil pan? The ones that are
a real pain to reach because of the exhaust manifold. It should not have
frozen unless water got back in the block somehow. Did you leave all the
plugs out until spring? Does sound like a cracked block :-(

The lifter valley is the part of the block under the intake manifold. It
requires a good deal of dissassembly. I'd try as much as possible to
eliminate everything else before starting to tear down the engine. One you
start taking it apart then it get s a lot harder to pressurize the cooling
system.

I do my own work so I'm not up on labors costs. A cracked block can be
replaced with a rebuilt short block if the heads are still good. The short
block will run a bit under a grand. A rebuilt with heads a bit over.


Terry Haywood wrote in message
...

Did you drain the block at the end of last year? Stored outside? Are
you
where it freezes?
Yes, yes, yes.

Late model Chevy v6s and v8s have a bad habit of cracking inside the
lifter
valley when the block freezes.
Could I see this by removing the valve covers or does this require
removing the head? (I'm not sure what a lifter valley is).

Symptoms are good compression on all cylinders, runs fine, but gets water
in
the oil. A pressure test of the cooling system would be a good thing to
try
Those are my symptoms. Lots of water, very fast. New oil run 1 minute
comes out looking like a milkshake.

This doesn't sound like it's heading toward anything I can do myself.
I'll see what I can do about a cooling system pressure test. Anything
else to check before taking to a shop? Might as well ask: if it's a
cracked block what's it gonna cost me to get fixed?

Thanks for the reply,

Terry

On Sat, 08 May 2004 18:10:52 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:

Did you drain the block at the end of last year? Stored outside? Are
you
where it freezes?

Late model Chevy v6s and v8s have a bad habit of cracking inside the
lifter
valley when the block freezes. I think the castings are thinner there.
Symptoms are good compression on all cylinders, runs fine, but gets water
in
the oil. A pressure test of the cooling system would be a good thing to
try
but it is a pain on a boat as you have to clamp plugs in the 3 of the
hoses
going to the exhaust and the line coming up from the steering cooler.
Then
figure out how to attach a radiator pressure tester to the remaining
exhaust
hose. Other possibilites like bad head gaskets or bad intake gaskets
usually also include poor running or low compression on one or more
cylinders. Usually the water leak from a bad gasket will be a lot slower
so
another thing to look for is the oil level being noticably higher on the
dip
stick. If it looks like its a lot higher then you have a major leak,
more
likely a cracked block.

wrote in message
.. .

I checked out my Volvo 4.3L (275 hours) for the first time this
season. Ran the engine for a few minutes and checked the oil. It was
milky white, apparently mixed with water. The last thing I did at the
end of the season was change the oil, haven't run it since then.

Changed the oil, ran for a minute, checked again. Milky white.

My guess is something froze over the winter. Is there anything I can
check that I could possibly fix myself, or should I just bite the
bullet and take to a mechanic?

A friend suggested a running compression test. It's too dark now, I'll
do that in the morning.

Any other diagnostic suggestions?

Thanks,

Terry

On Sat, 08 May 2004 19:19:59 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:

Hum, it should not have frozzen if you drained the block. The small plugs
on the sides of the engine block just above the oil pan? The ones that are
a real pain to reach because of the exhaust manifold. It should not have
frozen unless water got back in the block somehow. Did you leave all the
plugs out until spring? Does sound like a cracked block :-(

Yes, I removed those drain plugs from both sides of the block and left
them out. Also drained the exhaust things and pulled off the cooling
water hoses from the water pump.

It's the same thing I have done for the past few years, don't know
what is different. Agree it sounds like a cracked block.


The lifter valley is the part of the block under the intake manifold. It
requires a good deal of dissassembly. I'd try as much as possible to
If it is a problem in the lifter valley could it be something I could
fix at home? I've done all the work on my cars for years so I'm
reasonably capable if it's at all doable. I've never welded but I can
find somebody who can if that's what we're looking at. My first
impression is if it is a problem with the block I don't know how I
would fix it once I got to it.

Thanks much for your help,

Terry

eliminate everything else before starting to tear down the engine. One you
start taking it apart then it get s a lot harder to pressurize the cooling
system.

I do my own work so I'm not up on labors costs. A cracked block can be
replaced with a rebuilt short block if the heads are still good. The short
block will run a bit under a grand. A rebuilt with heads a bit over.


Terry Haywood wrote in message
.. .

Did you drain the block at the end of last year? Stored outside? Are
you
where it freezes?
Yes, yes, yes.

Late model Chevy v6s and v8s have a bad habit of cracking inside the
lifter
valley when the block freezes.
Could I see this by removing the valve covers or does this require
removing the head? (I'm not sure what a lifter valley is).

Symptoms are good compression on all cylinders, runs fine, but gets water
in
the oil. A pressure test of the cooling system would be a good thing to
try
Those are my symptoms. Lots of water, very fast. New oil run 1 minute
comes out looking like a milkshake.

This doesn't sound like it's heading toward anything I can do myself.
I'll see what I can do about a cooling system pressure test. Anything
else to check before taking to a shop? Might as well ask: if it's a
cracked block what's it gonna cost me to get fixed?

Thanks for the reply,

Terry

On Sat, 08 May 2004 18:10:52 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:

Did you drain the block at the end of last year? Stored outside? Are
you
where it freezes?

Late model Chevy v6s and v8s have a bad habit of cracking inside the
lifter
valley when the block freezes. I think the castings are thinner there.
Symptoms are good compression on all cylinders, runs fine, but gets water
in
the oil. A pressure test of the cooling system would be a good thing to
try
but it is a pain on a boat as you have to clamp plugs in the 3 of the
hoses
going to the exhaust and the line coming up from the steering cooler.
Then
figure out how to attach a radiator pressure tester to the remaining
exhaust
hose. Other possibilites like bad head gaskets or bad intake gaskets
usually also include poor running or low compression on one or more
cylinders. Usually the water leak from a bad gasket will be a lot slower
so
another thing to look for is the oil level being noticably higher on the
dip
stick. If it looks like its a lot higher then you have a major leak,
more
likely a cracked block.

wrote in message
.. .

I checked out my Volvo 4.3L (275 hours) for the first time this
season. Ran the engine for a few minutes and checked the oil. It was
milky white, apparently mixed with water. The last thing I did at the
end of the season was change the oil, haven't run it since then.

Changed the oil, ran for a minute, checked again. Milky white.

My guess is something froze over the winter. Is there anything I can
check that I could possibly fix myself, or should I just bite the
bullet and take to a mechanic?

A friend suggested a running compression test. It's too dark now, I'll
do that in the morning.

Any other diagnostic suggestions?

Thanks,

Terry

Terry Haywood wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 May 2004 19:19:59 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:


Yes, I removed those drain plugs from both sides of the block and left
them out. Also drained the exhaust things and pulled off the cooling
water hoses from the water pump.

It's the same thing I have done for the past few years, don't know
what is different. Agree it sounds like a cracked block.




Just above the circulation pump, on the front of the intake manifold, there
is a pipe plug that has to be removed to drain trapped water on late model
4.3L engines. Was this done? Many mechanics are not aware of this drain if
they have not attended a training seminar or a factory school concerning
this engine.

The bottom of the intake manifold cracks from the freezing water and when
you fire it up the following spring, cooling water flows thru the crack and
right into the lifter valley, and down to the oil pan. Your best bet is to
pull the manifold and that way you can check for cracks in it and also
inspect the lifter valley walls for freeze cracks.

Bill Grannis
service manager

I think that what Bill just said was exacltly my thinking for few reasons:
amount of water
water that I found in at least 1 cyl. on the even side (from intake
manifold?)
standing clear water in the lifter valley beside some slugde (below the
intake)
clean water in the oil filter (not mixed) that indicates that water was
getting there almost straight (with a block crack you would rather
expect it in the oil pan in the form of sludge, right?)
good compression test

Possibilities:
crack of the intake and leaking water ports between the intake and cyl.
heads

Again pressure test with a dye would be the best (like Magnaflux stuff
Zyglo, Spotcheck etc.). Cheapest and conclusive.


"Billgran" wrote in message
news

Terry Haywood wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 May 2004 19:19:59 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:


Yes, I removed those drain plugs from both sides of the block and left
them out. Also drained the exhaust things and pulled off the cooling
water hoses from the water pump.

It's the same thing I have done for the past few years, don't know
what is different. Agree it sounds like a cracked block.




Just above the circulation pump, on the front of the intake manifold,
there
is a pipe plug that has to be removed to drain trapped water on late model
4.3L engines. Was this done? Many mechanics are not aware of this drain if
they have not attended a training seminar or a factory school concerning
this engine.

The bottom of the intake manifold cracks from the freezing water and when
you fire it up the following spring, cooling water flows thru the crack
and
right into the lifter valley, and down to the oil pan. Your best bet is to
pull the manifold and that way you can check for cracks in it and also
inspect the lifter valley walls for freeze cracks.

Bill Grannis
service manager

Again pressure test with a dye would be the best (like Magnaflux stuff
Zyglo, Spotcheck etc.). Cheapest and conclusive.

This pressure test with dye is something a shop does or something we
can do at home?

On Sun, 09 May 2004 00:00:02 GMT, "Proxy"
wrote:

I think that what Bill just said was exacltly my thinking for few reasons:
amount of water
water that I found in at least 1 cyl. on the even side (from intake
manifold?)
standing clear water in the lifter valley beside some slugde (below the
intake)
clean water in the oil filter (not mixed) that indicates that water was
getting there almost straight (with a block crack you would rather
expect it in the oil pan in the form of sludge, right?)
good compression test

Possibilities:
crack of the intake and leaking water ports between the intake and cyl.
heads

Again pressure test with a dye would be the best (like Magnaflux stuff
Zyglo, Spotcheck etc.). Cheapest and conclusive.


"Billgran" wrote in message
news

Terry Haywood wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 May 2004 19:19:59 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:


Yes, I removed those drain plugs from both sides of the block and left
them out. Also drained the exhaust things and pulled off the cooling
water hoses from the water pump.

It's the same thing I have done for the past few years, don't know
what is different. Agree it sounds like a cracked block.




Just above the circulation pump, on the front of the intake manifold,
there
is a pipe plug that has to be removed to drain trapped water on late model
4.3L engines. Was this done? Many mechanics are not aware of this drain if
they have not attended a training seminar or a factory school concerning
this engine.

The bottom of the intake manifold cracks from the freezing water and when
you fire it up the following spring, cooling water flows thru the crack
and
right into the lifter valley, and down to the oil pan. Your best bet is to
pull the manifold and that way you can check for cracks in it and also
inspect the lifter valley walls for freeze cracks.

Bill Grannis
service manager

On Sat, 08 May 2004 22:32:52 GMT, "Billgran"
wrote:


Terry Haywood wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 08 May 2004 19:19:59 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:


Yes, I removed those drain plugs from both sides of the block and left
them out. Also drained the exhaust things and pulled off the cooling
water hoses from the water pump.

It's the same thing I have done for the past few years, don't know
what is different. Agree it sounds like a cracked block.




Just above the circulation pump, on the front of the intake manifold, there
is a pipe plug that has to be removed to drain trapped water on late model
4.3L engines. Was this done? Many mechanics are not aware of this drain if

No, I didn't do that, and my boat does have those plugs. One on top
and one on the starboard side.
I see what I did wrong. I usually pull the hose from the circulation
pump and drain it that way. I may have forgotten to do that.

they have not attended a training seminar or a factory school concerning
this engine.

The bottom of the intake manifold cracks from the freezing water and when
you fire it up the following spring, cooling water flows thru the crack and
right into the lifter valley, and down to the oil pan. Your best bet is to
pull the manifold and that way you can check for cracks in it and also
inspect the lifter valley walls for freeze cracks.

I'll pull the manifold tomorrow and see what I find. How do you fix
cracks? Weld them? Replace the manifold? JB Weld? I guess I'll figure
that out when/if I find the problem.

Thanks very much for the help, it's great to have an idea of what's
going on rather than just plunging in.

Terry

Bill Grannis
service manager

That's a good possibility Bill. I'd heard that before about the v6s.
Sounds like he's got way too big a leak to be a gasket but a cracked intake
would be a lot better than a cracked block.

"Billgran" wrote in message
news

Terry Haywood wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 May 2004 19:19:59 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:


Yes, I removed those drain plugs from both sides of the block and left
them out. Also drained the exhaust things and pulled off the cooling
water hoses from the water pump.

It's the same thing I have done for the past few years, don't know
what is different. Agree it sounds like a cracked block.




Just above the circulation pump, on the front of the intake manifold,
there
is a pipe plug that has to be removed to drain trapped water on late model
4.3L engines. Was this done? Many mechanics are not aware of this drain if
they have not attended a training seminar or a factory school concerning
this engine.

The bottom of the intake manifold cracks from the freezing water and when
you fire it up the following spring, cooling water flows thru the crack
and
right into the lifter valley, and down to the oil pan. Your best bet is to
pull the manifold and that way you can check for cracks in it and also
inspect the lifter valley walls for freeze cracks.

Bill Grannis
service manager

Removed the intake manifold yesterday. It appears to have 3 cracks
running lengthwise. I say "appears" because they are not as obvious as
I expected; I thought I would see a gaping hole with daylight shining
through. I even filled the manifold with water expecting it to flow
out the cracks. It didn't. However there is clear water in the lifter
valley and along with everything else that has been said I'll believe
the manifold is the cause.

My local boat dealer said these can't be repaired. It looks like an
easy weld to me (but I don't weld so I don't know). Do they crack
internally also? What's the problem with fixing it?

Cleanup: Assuming all is well after replacing the manifold I figure
run the engine a few minutes, change oil and filter, run up to
operating temperature, change oil/filter again. Maybe change the
filter again after the first outing. I really don't know, just seems
like I need to get all that water out of there.

After preparing myself for a multi-thousand dollar cracked block
repair I'm practically giddy about dropping "only" $350 for a manifold
and gasket. Hope that's all there is.

Thanks to all for the help,

Terry

On Sat, 08 May 2004 22:32:52 GMT, "Billgran"
wrote:


Terry Haywood wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 08 May 2004 19:19:59 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:


Yes, I removed those drain plugs from both sides of the block and left
them out. Also drained the exhaust things and pulled off the cooling
water hoses from the water pump.

It's the same thing I have done for the past few years, don't know
what is different. Agree it sounds like a cracked block.




Just above the circulation pump, on the front of the intake manifold, there
is a pipe plug that has to be removed to drain trapped water on late model
4.3L engines. Was this done? Many mechanics are not aware of this drain if
they have not attended a training seminar or a factory school concerning
this engine.

The bottom of the intake manifold cracks from the freezing water and when
you fire it up the following spring, cooling water flows thru the crack and
right into the lifter valley, and down to the oil pan. Your best bet is to
pull the manifold and that way you can check for cracks in it and also
inspect the lifter valley walls for freeze cracks.

Bill Grannis
service manager

Great, that means you are closer to the resolution. With regard to cleanup I
would definitely use engine flush fluid (the type that is sold at Walmart
(big 1L bottle). You want to thin the sludge and drain all crap thoroughly,
so all the oil changes should be preceded with this step until the oil is
clear. No particular source recommends that but this is my way of thinking
(after seeing what I have drained first time).


Terry Haywood wrote in message
...

Removed the intake manifold yesterday. It appears to have 3 cracks
running lengthwise. I say "appears" because they are not as obvious as
I expected; I thought I would see a gaping hole with daylight shining
through. I even filled the manifold with water expecting it to flow
out the cracks. It didn't. However there is clear water in the lifter
valley and along with everything else that has been said I'll believe
the manifold is the cause.

My local boat dealer said these can't be repaired. It looks like an
easy weld to me (but I don't weld so I don't know). Do they crack
internally also? What's the problem with fixing it?

Cleanup: Assuming all is well after replacing the manifold I figure
run the engine a few minutes, change oil and filter, run up to
operating temperature, change oil/filter again. Maybe change the
filter again after the first outing. I really don't know, just seems
like I need to get all that water out of there.

After preparing myself for a multi-thousand dollar cracked block
repair I'm practically giddy about dropping "only" $350 for a manifold
and gasket. Hope that's all there is.

Thanks to all for the help,

Terry

On Sat, 08 May 2004 22:32:52 GMT, "Billgran"
wrote:


Terry Haywood wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 08 May 2004 19:19:59 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:


Yes, I removed those drain plugs from both sides of the block and left
them out. Also drained the exhaust things and pulled off the cooling
water hoses from the water pump.

It's the same thing I have done for the past few years, don't know
what is different. Agree it sounds like a cracked block.




Just above the circulation pump, on the front of the intake manifold,
there
is a pipe plug that has to be removed to drain trapped water on late
model
4.3L engines. Was this done? Many mechanics are not aware of this drain
if
they have not attended a training seminar or a factory school concerning
this engine.

The bottom of the intake manifold cracks from the freezing water and when
you fire it up the following spring, cooling water flows thru the crack
and
right into the lifter valley, and down to the oil pan. Your best bet is
to
pull the manifold and that way you can check for cracks in it and also
inspect the lifter valley walls for freeze cracks.

Bill Grannis
service manager

The problem with welding is that it is difficult to do on cast iron. The
other problem is that it creates a stress in the metal that can crack again
in the future.

Sounds like good news. A used manifold is acceptible too since these are
not 'wear' parts. You can save a few bucks that way.

Changing the oil and filter several times is a good idea. Getting the
engine up to operating temp and keeping it hot for a while will vaporize the
water and give the water vapor a chance to get out.

Terry Haywood wrote in message
...

Removed the intake manifold yesterday. It appears to have 3 cracks
running lengthwise. I say "appears" because they are not as obvious as
I expected; I thought I would see a gaping hole with daylight shining
through. I even filled the manifold with water expecting it to flow
out the cracks. It didn't. However there is clear water in the lifter
valley and along with everything else that has been said I'll believe
the manifold is the cause.

My local boat dealer said these can't be repaired. It looks like an
easy weld to me (but I don't weld so I don't know). Do they crack
internally also? What's the problem with fixing it?

Cleanup: Assuming all is well after replacing the manifold I figure
run the engine a few minutes, change oil and filter, run up to
operating temperature, change oil/filter again. Maybe change the
filter again after the first outing. I really don't know, just seems
like I need to get all that water out of there.

After preparing myself for a multi-thousand dollar cracked block
repair I'm practically giddy about dropping "only" $350 for a manifold
and gasket. Hope that's all there is.

Thanks to all for the help,

Terry

On Sat, 08 May 2004 22:32:52 GMT, "Billgran"
wrote:


Terry Haywood wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 08 May 2004 19:19:59 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote:


Yes, I removed those drain plugs from both sides of the block and left
them out. Also drained the exhaust things and pulled off the cooling
water hoses from the water pump.

It's the same thing I have done for the past few years, don't know
what is different. Agree it sounds like a cracked block.




Just above the circulation pump, on the front of the intake manifold,
there
is a pipe plug that has to be removed to drain trapped water on late
model
4.3L engines. Was this done? Many mechanics are not aware of this drain
if
they have not attended a training seminar or a factory school concerning
this engine.

The bottom of the intake manifold cracks from the freezing water and when
you fire it up the following spring, cooling water flows thru the crack
and
right into the lifter valley, and down to the oil pan. Your best bet is
to
pull the manifold and that way you can check for cracks in it and also
inspect the lifter valley walls for freeze cracks.

Bill Grannis
service manager