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#1
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( OT ) Geneva convention concerning treatment of prisioners doesn't apply to US
So what happens when some of our guys are captured?
Mr. Rumsfeld's Responsibility Thursday, May 6, 2004; Page A34 THE HORRIFIC abuses by American interrogators and guards at the Abu Ghraib prison and at other facilities maintained by the U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan can be traced, in part, to policy decisions and public statements of Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld. Beginning more than two years ago, Mr. Rumsfeld decided to overturn decades of previous practice by the U.S. military in its handling of detainees in foreign countries. His Pentagon ruled that the United States would no longer be bound by the Geneva Conventions; that Army regulations on the interrogation of prisoners would not be observed; and that many detainees would be held incommunicado and without any independent mechanism of review. Abuses will take place in any prison system. But Mr. Rumsfeld's decisions helped create a lawless regime in which prisoners in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been humiliated, beaten, tortured and murdered -- and in which, until recently, no one has been held accountable. The lawlessness began in January 2002 when Mr. Rumsfeld publicly declared that hundreds of people detained by U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan "do not have any rights" under the Geneva Conventions. That was not the case: At a minimum, all those arrested in the war zone were entitled under the conventions to a formal hearing to determine whether they were prisoners of war or unlawful combatants. No such hearings were held, but then Mr. Rumsfeld made clear that U.S. observance of the convention was now optional. Prisoners, he said, would be treated "for the most part" in "a manner that is reasonably consistent" with the conventions -- which, the secretary breezily suggested, was outdated. In one important respect, Mr. Rumsfeld was correct: Not only could captured al Qaeda members be legitimately deprived of Geneva Convention guarantees (once the required hearing was held) but such treatment was in many cases necessary to obtain vital intelligence and prevent terrorists from communicating with confederates abroad. But if the United States was to resort to that exceptional practice, Mr. Rumsfeld should have established procedures to ensure that it did so without violating international conventions against torture and that only suspects who truly needed such extraordinary handling were treated that way. Outside controls or independent reviews could have provided such safeguards. Instead, Mr. Rumsfeld allowed detainees to be indiscriminately designated as beyond the law -- and made humane treatment dependent on the goodwill of U.S. personnel. Much of what has happened at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay is shrouded in secrecy. But according to an official Army report, a system was established at the camp under which military guards were expected to "set the conditions" for intelligence investigations. The report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba says the system was later introduced at military facilities at Bagram airbase in Afghanistan and the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, even though it violates Army regulations forbidding guards to participate in interrogations. The Taguba report and others by human rights groups reveal that the detention system Mr. Rumsfeld oversees has become so grossly distorted that military police have abused or tortured prisoners under the direction of civilian contractors and intelligence officers outside the military chain of command -- not in "exceptional" cases, as Mr. Rumsfeld said Tuesday, but systematically. Army guards have held "ghost" prisoners detained by the CIA and even hidden these prisoners from the International Red Cross. Meanwhile, Mr. Rumsfeld's contempt for the Geneva Conventions has trickled down: The Taguba report says that guards at Abu Ghraib had not been instructed on them and that no copies were posted in the facility. The abuses that have done so much harm to the U.S. mission in Iraq might have been prevented had Mr. Rumsfeld been responsive to earlier reports of violations. Instead, he publicly dismissed or minimized such accounts. He and his staff ignored detailed reports by respected human rights groups about criminal activity at U.S.-run prisons in Afghanistan, and they refused to provide access to facilities or respond to most questions. In December 2002, two Afghan detainees died in events that were ruled homicides by medical officials; only when the New York Times obtained the story did the Pentagon confirm that an investigation was underway, and no results have yet been announced. Not until other media obtained the photos from Abu Ghraib did Mr. Rumsfeld fully acknowledge what had happened, and not until Tuesday did his department disclose that 25 prisoners have died in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan. Accountability for those deaths has been virtually nonexistent: One soldier was punished with a dishonorable discharge. On Monday Mr. Rumsfeld's spokesman said that the secretary had not read Mr. Taguba's report, which was completed in early March. Yesterday Mr. Rumsfeld told a television interviewer that he still hadn't finished reading it, and he repeated his view that the Geneva Conventions "did not precisely apply" but were only "basic rules" for handling prisoners. His message remains the same: that the United States need not be bound by international law and that the crimes Mr. Taguba reported are not, for him, a priority. That attitude has undermined the American military's observance of basic human rights and damaged this country's ability to prevail in the war on terrorism. © 2004 The Washington Post Company |
#2
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( OT ) Geneva convention concerning treatment of prisioners doesn't apply to US
"Jim" wrote in message ... So what happens when some of our guys are captured? Their bodies are burned, they're chopped up with shovels, and then the carcasses are hung from a bridge. I suppose you hold that on par with chaining a bunch of naked insurgents together and making them simulate sex acts on each other? |
#3
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( OT ) Geneva convention concerning treatment of prisioners doesn't apply to US
"NOYB" wrote in message ...
"Jim" wrote in message ... So what happens when some of our guys are captured? Their bodies are burned, they're chopped up with shovels, and then the carcasses are hung from a bridge. How would YOU treat a foriegn army that invaded your country, with no provocation? I suppose you hold that on par with chaining a bunch of naked insurgents together and making them simulate sex acts on each other? Yes? |
#4
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( OT ) Geneva convention concerning treatment of prisioners doesn't apply to US
"basskisser" wrote in message How would YOU treat a foriegn army that invaded your country, with no provocation? Be sure to let us know when that occurs, so we can observe. |
#5
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( OT ) Geneva convention concerning treatment of prisioners doesn't apply to US
"John Gaquin" wrote in message ...
"basskisser" wrote in message How would YOU treat a foriegn army that invaded your country, with no provocation? Be sure to let us know when that occurs, so we can observe. It happened when Bush invaded Iraq, dummy. |
#6
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( OT ) Geneva convention concerning treatment of prisioners doesn't apply to US
"basskisser" wrote in message m... "John Gaquin" wrote in message ... "basskisser" wrote in message How would YOU treat a foriegn army that invaded your country, with no provocation? Be sure to let us know when that occurs, so we can observe. It happened when Bush invaded Iraq, dummy. No, it did not. |
#7
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( OT ) Geneva convention concerning treatment of prisioners doesn'tapply to US
Blah Blah Rule of Law Blah Blah Rummy sux blah blah.
Give it a rest or at leaset take it to alt.politics.i.hate.bush.so.bad.my.brain.has.turne d.to.mush Oh, and while you are at it, find a man to run for President that isn't the incumbent. That Concord Casanova y'all picked so far isn't fit to wash my shorts. I got injured more fixing my boat trailer brakes than he did in the 'nam. Oh, and by the way, this is rec.boats and trumprting Kerry 'cause he fell off one doesn't qualify. Al Jim wrote: So what happens when some of our guys are captured? Mr. Rumsfeld's Responsibility Thursday, May 6, 2004; Page A34 THE HORRIFIC abuses by American interrogators and guards at the Abu Ghraib prison and at other facilities maintained by the U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan can be traced, in part, to policy decisions and public statements of Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld. Beginning more than two years ago, Mr. Rumsfeld decided to overturn decades of previous practice by the U.S. military in its handling of detainees in foreign countries. His Pentagon ruled that the United States would no longer be bound by the Geneva Conventions; that Army regulations on the interrogation of prisoners would not be observed; and that many detainees would be held incommunicado and without any independent mechanism of review. Abuses will take place in any prison system. But Mr. Rumsfeld's decisions helped create a lawless regime in which prisoners in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been humiliated, beaten, tortured and murdered -- and in which, until recently, no one has been held accountable. The lawlessness began in January 2002 when Mr. Rumsfeld publicly declared that hundreds of people detained by U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan "do not have any rights" under the Geneva Conventions. That was not the case: At a minimum, all those arrested in the war zone were entitled under the conventions to a formal hearing to determine whether they were prisoners of war or unlawful combatants. No such hearings were held, but then Mr. Rumsfeld made clear that U.S. observance of the convention was now optional. Prisoners, he said, would be treated "for the most part" in "a manner that is reasonably consistent" with the conventions -- which, the secretary breezily suggested, was outdated. In one important respect, Mr. Rumsfeld was correct: Not only could captured al Qaeda members be legitimately deprived of Geneva Convention guarantees (once the required hearing was held) but such treatment was in many cases necessary to obtain vital intelligence and prevent terrorists from communicating with confederates abroad. But if the United States was to resort to that exceptional practice, Mr. Rumsfeld should have established procedures to ensure that it did so without violating international conventions against torture and that only suspects who truly needed such extraordinary handling were treated that way. Outside controls or independent reviews could have provided such safeguards. Instead, Mr. Rumsfeld allowed detainees to be indiscriminately designated as beyond the law -- and made humane treatment dependent on the goodwill of U.S. personnel. Much of what has happened at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay is shrouded in secrecy. But according to an official Army report, a system was established at the camp under which military guards were expected to "set the conditions" for intelligence investigations. The report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba says the system was later introduced at military facilities at Bagram airbase in Afghanistan and the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, even though it violates Army regulations forbidding guards to participate in interrogations. The Taguba report and others by human rights groups reveal that the detention system Mr. Rumsfeld oversees has become so grossly distorted that military police have abused or tortured prisoners under the direction of civilian contractors and intelligence officers outside the military chain of command -- not in "exceptional" cases, as Mr. Rumsfeld said Tuesday, but systematically. Army guards have held "ghost" prisoners detained by the CIA and even hidden these prisoners from the International Red Cross. Meanwhile, Mr. Rumsfeld's contempt for the Geneva Conventions has trickled down: The Taguba report says that guards at Abu Ghraib had not been instructed on them and that no copies were posted in the facility. The abuses that have done so much harm to the U.S. mission in Iraq might have been prevented had Mr. Rumsfeld been responsive to earlier reports of violations. Instead, he publicly dismissed or minimized such accounts. He and his staff ignored detailed reports by respected human rights groups about criminal activity at U.S.-run prisons in Afghanistan, and they refused to provide access to facilities or respond to most questions. In December 2002, two Afghan detainees died in events that were ruled homicides by medical officials; only when the New York Times obtained the story did the Pentagon confirm that an investigation was underway, and no results have yet been announced. Not until other media obtained the photos from Abu Ghraib did Mr. Rumsfeld fully acknowledge what had happened, and not until Tuesday did his department disclose that 25 prisoners have died in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan. Accountability for those deaths has been virtually nonexistent: One soldier was punished with a dishonorable discharge. On Monday Mr. Rumsfeld's spokesman said that the secretary had not read Mr. Taguba's report, which was completed in early March. Yesterday Mr. Rumsfeld told a television interviewer that he still hadn't finished reading it, and he repeated his view that the Geneva Conventions "did not precisely apply" but were only "basic rules" for handling prisoners. His message remains the same: that the United States need not be bound by international law and that the crimes Mr. Taguba reported are not, for him, a priority. That attitude has undermined the American military's observance of basic human rights and damaged this country's ability to prevail in the war on terrorism. © 2004 The Washington Post Company |
#8
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( OT ) Geneva convention concerning treatment of prisioners doesn't apply to US
"basskisser" wrote in message om... "NOYB" wrote in message ... "Jim" wrote in message ... So what happens when some of our guys are captured? Their bodies are burned, they're chopped up with shovels, and then the carcasses are hung from a bridge. How would YOU treat a foriegn army that invaded your country, with no provocation? I'd shoot back if they shot at me. I know I wouldn't chop apart the burned corpse however and hang it from a bridge. That'd be a waste of energy. I suppose you hold that on par with chaining a bunch of naked insurgents together and making them simulate sex acts on each other? Yes? Glad to know that you put it on par with mutilation of a corpse. It confirms what I already knew about you. |
#9
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( OT ) Geneva convention concerning treatment of prisioners doesn't apply to US
"NOYB" wrote in message ...
"basskisser" wrote in message om... "NOYB" wrote in message ... "Jim" wrote in message ... So what happens when some of our guys are captured? Their bodies are burned, they're chopped up with shovels, and then the carcasses are hung from a bridge. How would YOU treat a foriegn army that invaded your country, with no provocation? I'd shoot back if they shot at me. I know I wouldn't chop apart the burned corpse however and hang it from a bridge. That'd be a waste of energy. YOU are a "waste of energy". Do you not understand ANYTHING about what it would be like to have a whole complete army invade YOUR country, then automatically start telling you exactly what is good for you? I suppose you hold that on par with chaining a bunch of naked insurgents together and making them simulate sex acts on each other? Yes? Glad to know that you put it on par with mutilation of a corpse. It confirms what I already knew about you. Death is death. |
#10
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( OT ) Geneva convention concerning treatment of prisioners doesn't apply to US
"basskisser" wrote in message om... "NOYB" wrote in message ... "basskisser" wrote in message om... "NOYB" wrote in message ... "Jim" wrote in message ... So what happens when some of our guys are captured? Their bodies are burned, they're chopped up with shovels, and then the carcasses are hung from a bridge. How would YOU treat a foriegn army that invaded your country, with no provocation? I'd shoot back if they shot at me. I know I wouldn't chop apart the burned corpse however and hang it from a bridge. That'd be a waste of energy. YOU are a "waste of energy". Do you not understand ANYTHING about what it would be like to have a whole complete army invade YOUR country, then automatically start telling you exactly what is good for you? Are you a buffoon? You are trying to provide justification for the attacks against troops from your own country? Many of the ones killing our troops are al Qaeda terrorists from other countries. What's your *excuse* for them? I suppose you hold that on par with chaining a bunch of naked insurgents together and making them simulate sex acts on each other? Yes? Glad to know that you put it on par with mutilation of a corpse. It confirms what I already knew about you. Death is death. The insurgents who were piled naked in a pile, or leashed like a dog while lying naked on the floor, did not die. So how can you even compare those acts to what the terrorists did to those civilian contractors in Fallujah? |