" Tuuk" wrote in message
...
Stick to the point boys,,,
my advice to this caller was to start with a small boat, then when
mastered,
move up. This could save his life.
Answer to your question there Doug,,, no I have not boated in that area,
BUT, you moron, if you are familiar with that area, you should provide the
caller with advice as if he is a rookie, then maybe he should go in that
area, this advice could save his life. BUT, no, you would rather point
out
my spelling mistakes. So,, lets look at what you morons said,,,

1) Humor trumps bad advice.

2) A "runabout" would be dangerous in the waters he's talking about, unless
he intends to remain in small bays at all times.

Boat dealers just love the advice:

"Start with a 16-footer, and then move up two feet per year as you gain
experience."

Horsefeathers.

Unless you are *completely* clueless about what you want to do with the boat,
where you want to use it, how many people will ordinarily be aboard, etc,
that's very bad and expensive advice.

Get a boat that suits your needs and, at the very beginning, learn to operate
it properly. That may even involve hiring somebody to teach you, one on one.
Yes, the CG Aux and the Power Squadron courses are fine......but they won't
teach you how to operate your boat. In some of those organizations, a person
can become
a high level instructor with no requirement that ever, even once in a lifetime,
did they set foot on an actual boat. Theory is good, and the safety stuff
doesn't require boating experience to pass along in a basic form.
Don't skip the course work, but don't even thinik it will begin to prepare you
to handle a larger boat than you start off with.

You're more likely to have a "bad experience" that turns you off from boating
by going out in an undersized boat than in
getting a boat that is actually suitable for your needs to begin with (and
taking the time to learn to run it before you just head out to sea).

Running a 16-foot boat for a year or so does a wonderful job of training
you....to run a 16-foot boat.

There is always a learning curve when you step up in size. Might as well run up
that curve for a boat that actually suits your needs.

In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:


Seeing how the new boater might be considering the legitimate posts, I'd
like to address this post.


Boat dealers just love the advice:

"Start with a 16-footer, and then move up two feet per year as you gain
experience."

Horsefeathers.

Unless you are *completely* clueless about what you want to do with the boat,
where you want to use it, how many people will ordinarily be aboard, etc,
that's very bad and expensive advice.


Okay, I don't argue with being able to start with a larger boat, nor do I
think an individual can only move up two feet per year. But I don't
necessarily think that's a bad general statement for somone you don't know
anything about.

Also, most people who have never owned a boat, ARE completely clueless.
Granted they may have ideas of the "whats and wheres" of their boating
desires, but my guess is most are unaware of the practicality or logistics
of fulfilling those desires. That's not just handling experience, but the
costs of insurance, fuel, dockage, and maintenance as well. How can you
expect someone who hasn't owned a boat to be completely aware of this?

How is blindly telling a would be boater to get a larger boat, only for
them to find out the hard way they are too intimidated by its size to
operate it, or cannot afford the necessities the boat need to be utilized,
less of a disservice than putting them in too small of a boat?

Get a boat that suits your needs and, at the very beginning, learn to operate
it properly. That may even involve hiring somebody to teach you, one on one.
Yes, the CG Aux and the Power Squadron courses are fine......but they won't
teach you how to operate your boat. In some of those organizations, a person
can become
a high level instructor with no requirement that ever, even once in a
lifetime,
did they set foot on an actual boat. Theory is good, and the safety stuff
doesn't require boating experience to pass along in a basic form.
Don't skip the course work, but don't even thinik it will begin to prepare you
to handle a larger boat than you start off with.


Providing you truly know what your needs are, and those needs are
reasonable (this is not always the case), I cannot disagree here. I also
agree there is a differnece between boating theory and boating practice.
I think that is the very reason why people will tell first time boaters to
get into a smaller boat. The theories are the same regardless of size,
the practice is usually easier on the smaller vessel.


You're more likely to have a "bad experience" that turns you off from boating
by going out in an undersized boat than in
getting a boat that is actually suitable for your needs to begin with (and
taking the time to learn to run it before you just head out to sea).


Bad experiences happen not just at sea, but in the harbors too. Yes a
person can be turned off from boating in an undersized boat in rough
conditions, but I've heard of just as many , if not more, people who were
turned off because they were scared ****tless trying to dock their new big
boat when conditions turned. Docking the smaller boat would have
presented less of a problem under the same circumstances.


Running a 16-foot boat for a year or so does a wonderful job of training
you....to run a 16-foot boat.


This is as you would say, "Horsefeathers". IMHO, running a 16 foot boat
allows to apply boating theory, and gain boating experience at a faster
rate, with reduced risk, and reduced ancillary costs than with say
stepping into a 28 foot cruiser.

There is always a learning curve when you step up in size. Might as well
run up
that curve for a boat that actually suits your needs.

In theory trying to get the boat that willbest suit your needs is always
sound advice. In practice, if a new boater wants to sleep his family
aboard and accomodate larger groups of people, as the original poster
stated, then they might have to compromise their "needs" with the
practicality of owning such a boat with limited experience and/or budget.

Your points aren't necessarily bad, but they are one sided. Remember, on
any given nice weekend the marinas are full of big shiny new boats,
chained to the dock because their skipper had, or has, too few resources
(crew, money) and/or too steep of a learning curve to overcome.

Bob Dimond

How is blindly telling a would be boater to get a larger boat,

I wouldn't begin to know.

What I said was:

Get a boat that suits your needs and, at the very beginning, learn to
operate
it properly. That may even involve hiring somebody to teach you, one on
one.

Several of the folks screeching that you *must* start small and work up have
cited "safety" as an issue.

Maybe it's different in my state, but boating deaths go up exponentially the
further one gets down below 20 feet LOA.

I'm personally aware of scores of first-time boaters who had very successful
experiences with boats as large as a 63-foot Hatteras. In every case, the
people got some extensive one-on-one training.

We can agree that it is complete idiocy to be out and about on a boat you are
not prepared to handle. We apparently disagree that it is possible for that
*first* boat to something other than a tiny little runabout.

In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:

How is blindly telling a would be boater to get a larger boat,

I wouldn't begin to know.

What I said was:

Get a boat that suits your needs and, at the very beginning, learn to
operate
it properly. That may even involve hiring somebody to teach you, one on
one.

Several of the folks screeching that you *must* start small and work up have
cited "safety" as an issue.


While I don't feel anyone *must* start off in a small boat, I can by no
means consider it "bad advice" for most first time boaters to start off
with a smaller vessel for reasons of safety and practically. And yes
saftey is an issue if your in a boat you can't operate.

Maybe it's different in my state, but boating deaths go up exponentially the
further one gets down below 20 feet LOA.


This a vague correlation, offering no other details like location,
conditions, activity or the captain's experience.

It is my understanding that most boating fatalities take place under calm
conditions, and DO NOT involve recreational boaters, but hunters and
fishermen on small boats that I would not constitute as a recreational
boat. These statistics better illustrate the misuse of and stupidity on a
boat like standing up in a 9 foot john boat, overloading, and not wearing
a PFD. Those fatalities might be skewing the statistics in favor of the
"bigger is better" argument. Factor out the hunters and fisherman and the
calm conditions, and the remaining statistics would hold more relevance.

All things being equal, your point is taken that you will be safer on a
larger boat, AND if a new boater is hell bent on taking seven people out
on the water, then for the love of god they should get a boat larger than
16 feet.

But that is a far cry from being able to recommend to everyone that
getting a larger boat is good idea for a first time boat owner.

I'm personally aware of scores of first-time boaters who had very successful
experiences with boats as large as a 63-foot Hatteras. In every case, the
people got some extensive one-on-one training.


Hiring someone to hold your hand until you can operate your own vessel is
great. But would you argue that every new boater would exercise this
much common sense? In most cases, the best we can hope for is a dealer
taking the new owner out to get familar with the helm, and that is a far
cry from being able to safeley operate the boat under adverse conditions.


We can agree that it is complete idiocy to be out and about on a boat you are
not prepared to handle. We apparently disagree that it is possible for that
*first* boat to something other than a tiny little runabout.

We don't necessarily disagree on your second point, as I've never said one
can not or should not start out with a larger vessel. You have valid
points supporting the decision to opt for the larger vessel. The
exception I took, is in the failing to point out the potential pitfalls
in starting out with a larger, or "too large" a boat for the the would be
boater.

While I don't feel anyone *must* start off in a small boat, I can by no
means consider it "bad advice" for most first time boaters to start off
with a smaller vessel for reasons of safety and practically. And yes
saftey is an issue if your in a boat you can't operate.

And we're certainly an argumentive couple of cusses considering that we
essentially agree. Refer again to my statement, please. Perhaps it was
carelessly worded or otherwise unclear:

Get a boat that suits your needs and, at the very beginning, learn to
operate
it properly. That may even involve hiring somebody to teach you, one on
one.


All other things being equal, a boater will be statistically and demonstrably
safer in a larger boat that he knows how to operate than in a smaller boat that
he knows how to operate equally well. Both are learned experiences. Does
everybody who learns to drive need to start out in a Mini Cooper, or could the
average person probably handle a 3/4 ton pickup as a first
vehicle with proper instruction? Similar concept.

Would you move your wife and five kids into a two bedroom home because it was
your first house? Why would anybody start off with a vessel that clearly is
undersized for its intended use or desired level of comfort simply because it
is a first boat?



Not everybody needs a big boat. But those who attempt to sleep a family of four
during a weekend or two on a 19-foot cuddy cabin will be lucky to sustain
interest in the hobby long enough to take that expensive depreciation hit and
"step up".

It is my understanding that most boating fatalities take place under calm
conditions, and DO NOT involve recreational boaters, but hunters and
fishermen on small boats that I would not constitute as a recreational
boat.

Yes, but. When you look at the statistics for recreational boaters who are not
hunting.....(and it gets pretty weird to exclude fishing, but OK)......there
are still a disproportionate number of people who die in the smaller craft.
When did you last hear of a 30-foot cruiser capsizing, or swamping in
3-footers?



Hiring someone to hold your hand until you can operate your own vessel is
great. But would you argue that every new boater would exercise this
much common sense? In most cases, the best we can hope for is a dealer
taking the new owner out to get familar with the helm, and that is a far
cry from being able to safeley operate the boat under adverse conditions.


We do have to rely on people showing som common sense. The fact that the OP is
asking questions about size indicates a thoughtful process at work.

Frankly, I don't want some guy bearing down on me at 25 knots in a 16-footer if
it's Day One of his boating experience and he's had no more instruction than
the boat dealer saying, "Here's the keys, Skipper. Good luck!"


We can agree that it is complete idiocy to be out and about on a boat you
are
not prepared to handle. We apparently disagree that it is possible for that
*first* boat to something other than a tiny little runabout.



We don't necessarily disagree on your second point, as I've never said one
can not or should not start out with a larger vessel. You have valid
points supporting the decision to opt for the larger vessel. The
exception I took, is in the failing to point out the potential pitfalls
in starting out with a larger, or "too large" a boat for the the would be
boater.

Perhaps my perspective is influenced by my geographic location. The first
powerboat I learned to operate on more than a casual basis was a 34-foot,
single screw trawler. That's not so unusual out here. With that as a
background, I always marvel at the number of people who are conviced they could
never learn to operate a single engine boat or who are convinced that there is
a narrow range of properly sized boats for a beginner.

Anything bigger than an 8-foot rowing pram is unsuitable for a novice who will
not obtrain instruction. :-)

"Bob D." wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:

Maybe it's different in my state, but boating deaths go up exponentially
the
further one gets down below 20 feet LOA.


This a vague correlation, offering no other details like location,
conditions, activity or the captain's experience.

It is my understanding that most boating fatalities take place under calm
conditions, and DO NOT involve recreational boaters, but hunters and
fishermen on small boats that I would not constitute as a recreational
boat. These statistics better illustrate the misuse of and stupidity on a
boat like standing up in a 9 foot john boat, overloading, and not wearing
a PFD. Those fatalities might be skewing the statistics in favor of the
"bigger is better" argument. Factor out the hunters and fisherman and the
calm conditions, and the remaining statistics would hold more relevance.

Hunters & inland fishermen have a relatively high fatality rate when
involved in the "out of boat" type of accident. It is generally thought to
be because they don't generally consider themselves boaters, and thus often
do not take even the simplest safety precautions, such as having & wearing a
PFD, etc. However, these same hunters and fishermen do not constitute a
large percentage of boaters as a whole, and do not, I believe, skew the
stats.

Full stats are available free at
http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...stics_2002.pdf



Year 2002 (latest available)

LENGTH DROWNINGS OTHER DEATHS* TOTAL
Less than 16 254 77
331

16 to 26 179 111
290

26 feet to 40 feet 19 18
37

40 feet to 65 feet 3 3
6

More than 65 feet 1 3
4

Unknown 68 14
82

Total 524 226
750

Also Sprach Gould 0738 :

Maybe it's different in my state, but boating deaths go up exponentially the
further one gets down below 20 feet LOA.

Did you conveniently forget to mention that the number of boats on the
water increases exponentially below 20 feet? For instance, combining
King and Snohomish counties, there are 72,000 boats under 20 feet, 15,000
between 21 and 30 feet, and 6003 31 feet and up.

Of course there are going to be more deaths below 20 feet, there are a lot
more of them on the water. I won't deny that the operators are likely to
be less experienced, or that the boats are likely less stable in rough
weather, but they're nowhere near the deathtraps your statistical
manipulation makes them out to be.

In fact, in some ways you are safer on a boat less than 20 feet. A boat
less than 20 feet is required to have flotation... basic flotation for
inboards and stern drives, and level flotation for outboards. Over 20
feet, there is no legal requirement for flotation, and most don't have it,
so will sink like a rock.

Dan

--
Aerodrome (n) - British word for airport. About what you would expect from
a country that gives its airplanes names like Gypsy Moth and Fairey Battle
Bomber.

Did you conveniently forget to mention that the number of boats on the
water increases exponentially below 20 feet?

No, the statistics are typically expressed in deaths per thousand. That
neutralizes the numerical difference.

Good aspect to consider, though.

I won't deny that the operators are likely to
be less experienced, or that the boats are likely less stable in rough
weather, but they're nowhere near the deathtraps your statistical
manipulation makes them out to be.

Deathtraps? Never did I say deathtraps.
All other things be equal, a boater will be safer in a larger and heavier boat
that he knows how to run well than in a smaller and lighter boat than he knows
how to run well.

When it comes to safety, there's no replacement for displacement.


In fact, in some ways you are safer on a boat less than 20 feet. A boat
less than 20 feet is required to have flotation... basic flotation for
inboards and stern drives, and level flotation for outboards. Over 20
feet, there is no legal requirement for flotation, and most don't have it,
so will sink like a rock.

If flotation made that much difference, the statistics per thousand would
actually favor the little boats. The statistics do not.

Given a choice between a 4000 lb bowrider with 15 inches of freeboard and full
flotation and a 10,000 lb boat with a proper foredeck, 30 or more inches of
freeboard, lacking full floation I'd opt for the latter.
I'm more interested in avoiding a situation where the flotation becomes the
critical difference between life and death, but that's just me. Lots of room on
the water for more than one opinion.

"Bob D." wrote in message
...


Running a 16-foot boat for a year or so does a wonderful job of training
you....to run a 16-foot boat.


This is as you would say, "Horsefeathers". IMHO, running a 16 foot boat
allows to apply boating theory, and gain boating experience at a faster
rate, with reduced risk, and reduced ancillary costs than with say
stepping into a 28 foot cruiser.

If you discover within a month that your 16 foot boat is completely
inappropriate for 80% of the wave conditions outside of your harbor, you'll
find yourself using the boat quite a bit less. Then, its value as a learning
tool diminishes rapidly. Perhaps the OP should be wandering around marinas
and talking to owners of smaller boats, to find out if and how they feel
limited by their particular boats.