Where is the catenary on a yo-yo hanging from a finger? It is a line
between 2 points.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
clown, check the meaning of the word.

Gene Kearns
Date: 9/18/2004 7:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 18 Sep 2004 20:49:57 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

spell it any way you want, you still do not have any idea what it is.

yo-yo, a string strung between two points has, and always has, a
catenary.
go
look it up.

And a yo-yo is about the depth of your comprehension, here....

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/
Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillageinn.com/directions.asp Where
Southport,NC
is located.
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:04:06 -0400, "NOYB" wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:46:04 -0400, Gene Kearns

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.

Thanks for the link Gene, by the way, I missed that the first time
around.

But wouldn't the strain be equal at the arthimetical center and can be
equated to weight? It's really just another to figure energy
transfer, right?

I'm not totaly familiar with this so if I mess this up, it's an
electronic engineer with a math degree playing at mechanics, but
catenary defined means the shape of the line (or in this case rode) as
a curve. A funciton of strain would be weights at either end. Strain
can be defined as stored energy which is, I would think, distributed
evenly along the line to the end points. One way to define how much
strain is being applied would be to add weight to the middle and
measure the deflection.

At that point, it becomes a trig function - yes/no?

Yes, assuming the line itself has negligible mass compared to the weight
pulling on it...which is not a practical assumption when comparing it to an
anchor line and chain rode. I don't know why jackassby even used this
example. Jackassby's example describes a straight line...not a catenary.
It is not even close to replicating what is happening to an anchor line and
chain rode. The only time that Jax's example *may* similate an anchor line
is when the force of the wind is so great that the line and chain is
perfectly straight...which *never* happens in a real world situation anyhow.
If the wind pulled so hard that the line was perfectly straight, it wouldn't
be a catenary any longer...it would be a straight line. And if it were a
straight line, the vertical component of force exerted by the boat on the
anchor would be so high that the anchor would pull loose. Go look at the
website Gene posted:
http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/ro...ic/sta_hom.htm

It explains it all.

Well, yes, but the static load page is "under construction" and that's
what I was looking for, but hey - at least I have a better picture of
what's what.

Interesting about that kellet thing - that makes a lot of sense. I
knew the term, but I didn't know the term, know what I mean?

Thanks.

Later,

Tom

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:24:40 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:14:34 -0400, "NOYB" wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
On 18 Sep 2004 21:15:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

What happens during the interaction of forces on the rode would be
most fascinating.

a way to simplified look at it is to consider the chain/rode/line to
have
zero
weight pulled between two points (say 100 feet apart), then hang a 1#
weight in
the center point and check how much strain it put on the end points
when
the
weight hangs 20 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then 1 foot, then 1
inch, then
1/10th inch. Just use trig to figure the forces.

So.... we just used intuitive trig to figure out why (1) we use scope
with an anchor and (2) why we don't tie boats to the dock with chain.
Now *that* is some real science......

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.


the forces get out of hand ********VERY******** quickly. Even worse,
is
that
the weight in the middle (or chain) has momentum as the boat rocks, so
the
"natural" position of the weight overshoots and makes for seriously
high
g-loads.


There is no weight "in the middle" (other than the weight of the rode)
.... so you put two anchors on the same rode? Odd.

Also, in jaxassby's example, the points can't always be 100' apart if the
weight is hanging further and further down each time...unless he has an
extremely elastic line and there's a large amount of stretch. I assume
that
jaxassby meant to say "using a 100' rope".

The main definition of catenary is that of a curve formed by a
perfectly flexible, uniformly dense, and inextensible cable suspended
from its endpoints. It would look a lot like hyperbolic cosine if you
graphed it out. Which, now that I think about it, wouldn't look a lot
like an anchor rode as much as a tow line.

I'm more curious about strain towards the middle of the curve. That
would be fairly easy to measure at either end, but if you have two
opposing forces of two different weights, say as in a barge tow, the
center strain would constantly move towards one or the other depending
on the weights.

How would you determine that mathematically?

The end points are not at the same elevation.

True, but then a hyperbolic curve does not necessarily have to have
equal level end points (in this case, height). It only has to have a
90º tangent at some point along the curve.

I think I'm getting one of my headaches again. I retired to get away
from all this stuff. :)

Later,

Tom
-----------
"Angling may be said to be so
like the mathematics that it
can never be fully learnt..."

Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653

gene, go stand in the corner and keep quiet. the man asked a valid question
and got a valid answer. the fact that you are not capable of understanding
either the question or the answer means not a thing except that you are too
stupid to understand. now, be quiet. adults are having a conversation.

Gene Kearns
Date: 9/18/2004 7:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 18 Sep 2004 21:15:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

What happens during the interaction of forces on the rode would be
most fascinating.

a way to simplified look at it is to consider the chain/rode/line to have
zero
weight pulled between two points (say 100 feet apart), then hang a 1# weight
in
the center point and check how much strain it put on the end points when the
weight hangs 20 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then 1 foot, then 1 inch,
then
1/10th inch. Just use trig to figure the forces.

So.... we just used intuitive trig to figure out why (1) we use scope
with an anchor and (2) why we don't tie boats to the dock with chain.
Now *that* is some real science......

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.


the forces get out of hand ********VERY******** quickly. Even worse, is
that
the weight in the middle (or chain) has momentum as the boat rocks, so the
"natural" position of the weight overshoots and makes for seriously high
g-loads.


There is no weight "in the middle" (other than the weight of the rode)
.... so you put two anchors on the same rode? Odd.

Using that concept, most people use kellets and think it is a good and
useful idea.

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillageinn.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC
is located.
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

tom, you got it close enough. when the chain pulls tight the forces become
huge *********VERY********** quickly.

But wouldn't the strain be equal at the arthimetical center and can be
equated to weight? It's really just another to figure energy
transfer, right?

I'm not totaly familiar with this so if I mess this up, it's an
electronic engineer with a math degree playing at mechanics, but
catenary defined means the shape of the line (or in this case rode) as
a curve. A funciton of strain would be weights at either end. Strain
can be defined as stored energy which is, I would think, distributed
evenly along the line to the end points. One way to define how much
strain is being applied would be to add weight to the middle and
measure the deflection.

At that point, it becomes a trig function - yes/no?

the forces get out of hand ********VERY******** quickly. Even worse, is
that
the weight in the middle (or chain) has momentum as the boat rocks, so the
"natural" position of the weight overshoots and makes for seriously high
g-loads.


There is no weight "in the middle" (other than the weight of the rode)
.... so you put two anchors on the same rode? Odd.

Using that concept, most people use kellets and think it is a good and
useful idea.

What's a kellet?


Later,

Tom

short bus, the example I gave is accurate, if understated. the forces on a
massless line with weight in center become huge **********VERY************
quickly at the line becomes tighter.

The forces on a catenary are even more huge and become worse even faster.

The math is easier on a massless line than a catenary, that is all.

NOYB"
Date: 9/18/2004 10:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:46:04 -0400, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On 18 Sep 2004 21:15:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

What happens during the interaction of forces on the rode would be
most fascinating.

a way to simplified look at it is to consider the chain/rode/line to
have zero
weight pulled between two points (say 100 feet apart), then hang a 1#
weight in
the center point and check how much strain it put on the end points when
the
weight hangs 20 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then 1 foot, then 1
inch, then
1/10th inch. Just use trig to figure the forces.

So.... we just used intuitive trig to figure out why (1) we use scope
with an anchor and (2) why we don't tie boats to the dock with chain.
Now *that* is some real science......

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.

But wouldn't the strain be equal at the arthimetical center and can be
equated to weight? It's really just another to figure energy
transfer, right?

I'm not totaly familiar with this so if I mess this up, it's an
electronic engineer with a math degree playing at mechanics, but
catenary defined means the shape of the line (or in this case rode) as
a curve. A funciton of strain would be weights at either end. Strain
can be defined as stored energy which is, I would think, distributed
evenly along the line to the end points. One way to define how much
strain is being applied would be to add weight to the middle and
measure the deflection.

At that point, it becomes a trig function - yes/no?


Yes, assuming the line itself has negligible mass compared to the weight
pulling on it...which is not a practical assumption when comparing it to an
anchor line and chain rode. I don't know why jackassby even used this
example. Jackassby's example describes a straight line...not a catenary.
It is not even close to replicating what is happening to an anchor line and
chain rode. The only time that Jax's example *may* similate an anchor line
is when the force of the wind is so great that the line and chain is
perfectly straight...which *never* happens in a real world situation anyhow.
If the wind pulled so hard that the line was perfectly straight, it wouldn't
be a catenary any longer...it would be a straight line. And if it were a
straight line, the vertical component of force exerted by the boat on the
anchor would be so high that the anchor would pull loose. Go look at the
website Gene posted:
http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/ro...ic/sta_hom.htm

It explains it all.

If the wind pulled so hard that the line was perfectly straight, it wouldn't
be a catenary any longer

a chain (or nylon rode, or a piece of cord string) ALWAYS has a catenary.
ALWAYS.

to pull the line straight requires infinite effort. and to pull it "just a
little bit more" when it is already stressed with a 1,000# pull is HUGELY more
than 1000#.

That is what breaks boats loose, or at least boats without 15 or 20 feet of
stretch left in the rode.

the vertical component of force exerted by the boat on the
anchor would be so high that the anchor would pull loose.

no ****. why do you think boats pull loose.

Thanks for the link Gene, by the way, I missed that the first time
around.

don't thank him, Tom. The site is like a Texan fraud. "Big hat, no cattle."

While the site uses a lot of math symbols, it is the work of someone who
understands damned little about catenaries AND thinks boats anchor in lite
winds always.

if you wish to anchor on mostly or all chain in a blow, you MUST hang LARGE
weights (plural) in the middle of the rode. otherwise, the forces on the
anchor and deck chocks get huge very quickly as the chain goes tight, and you
will break loose (which is not an Act of God, but rather the consequence of an
act of neglegence).

boy, you guys are stucking fupid. give you an example understandable by a
sophomore in high school and you STILL insist on anchoring in such a fashion as
to injure boaters around you. Did you ever consider some district attorney
might charge you with criminal neglegence if you hurt someone anchoring your
silly, lazy ass way (which, in fact, is your justification as to why you --
utterly unwilling to pull up an anchor by hand -- install an electric anchor
puller that works only with chain).

catenaires, and they strains imposed on the end points, is a freshman physics
discussion understood by tens of millions of 18 year old boys every year.

From: "NOYB"
Date: 9/18/2004 8:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
On 18 Sep 2004 21:15:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

What happens during the interaction of forces on the rode would be
most fascinating.

a way to simplified look at it is to consider the chain/rode/line to have
zero
weight pulled between two points (say 100 feet apart), then hang a 1#
weight in
the center point and check how much strain it put on the end points when
the
weight hangs 20 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then 1 foot, then 1
inch, then
1/10th inch. Just use trig to figure the forces.

So.... we just used intuitive trig to figure out why (1) we use scope
with an anchor and (2) why we don't tie boats to the dock with chain.
Now *that* is some real science......

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.


the forces get out of hand ********VERY******** quickly. Even worse, is
that
the weight in the middle (or chain) has momentum as the boat rocks, so
the
"natural" position of the weight overshoots and makes for seriously high
g-loads.


There is no weight "in the middle" (other than the weight of the rode)
.... so you put two anchors on the same rode? Odd.

Also, in jaxassby's example, the points can't always be 100' apart if the
weight is hanging further and further down each time...unless he has an
extremely elastic line and there's a large amount of stretch. I assume that
jaxassby meant to say "using a 100' rope".

JAXAshby wrote:


catenaires, and they strains imposed on the end points, is a freshman physics
discussion understood by tens of millions of 18 year old boys every year.

Times sure have change...when I was an 18-year-old boy, my interests
focused on the one-handed removal of bras. Chains came much later.


--
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
And don't forget to pay your taxes so the rich don't have to!

just used intuitive trig

there is no such thing as intuitive trig.

How would you determine that mathematically?

Tom, it is tough math for a layman. that is why I used the geometric
explanation. lots easier math, even if it understates the forces involved.

bill, like gene, stay out of this discussion. difference if, you can ask
questions, gene can not.

neither of you is allowed to make statements until you get up to speed on the
subject. gene never will get up to speed, you might sometime next year.

"Calif Bill"
Date: 9/18/2004 10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: . net


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:14:34 -0400, "NOYB" wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
On 18 Sep 2004 21:15:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

What happens during the interaction of forces on the rode would be
most fascinating.

a way to simplified look at it is to consider the chain/rode/line to
have
zero
weight pulled between two points (say 100 feet apart), then hang a 1#
weight in
the center point and check how much strain it put on the end points
when
the
weight hangs 20 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then 1 foot, then 1
inch, then
1/10th inch. Just use trig to figure the forces.

So.... we just used intuitive trig to figure out why (1) we use scope
with an anchor and (2) why we don't tie boats to the dock with chain.
Now *that* is some real science......

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.


the forces get out of hand ********VERY******** quickly. Even worse,
is
that
the weight in the middle (or chain) has momentum as the boat rocks, so
the
"natural" position of the weight overshoots and makes for seriously
high
g-loads.


There is no weight "in the middle" (other than the weight of the rode)
.... so you put two anchors on the same rode? Odd.

Also, in jaxassby's example, the points can't always be 100' apart if the
weight is hanging further and further down each time...unless he has an
extremely elastic line and there's a large amount of stretch. I assume
that
jaxassby meant to say "using a 100' rope".

The main definition of catenary is that of a curve formed by a
perfectly flexible, uniformly dense, and inextensible cable suspended
from its endpoints. It would look a lot like hyperbolic cosine if you
graphed it out. Which, now that I think about it, wouldn't look a lot
like an anchor rode as much as a tow line.

I'm more curious about strain towards the middle of the curve. That
would be fairly easy to measure at either end, but if you have two
opposing forces of two different weights, say as in a barge tow, the
center strain would constantly move towards one or the other depending
on the weights.

How would you determine that mathematically?

Later,

Tom

The end points are not at the same elevation.

JAXAshby wrote:
bill, like gene, stay out of this discussion. difference if, you can ask
questions, gene can not.

neither of you is allowed to make statements until you get up to speed on the
subject. gene never will get up to speed, you might sometime next year.


Ker-ripes, Jaxass. You should at all costs avoid the use of the word
"speed" or its variation "speedo."


--
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
And don't forget to pay your taxes so the rich don't have to!

It only has to have a
90º tangent at some point along the curve.

not sure what you are trying to say there, for no curve has a 90* tangent.

yo-yo, the shock absorbing capability is dependent on how much sag is in the
(inelastic) chain. lots of sag, lots of shock absorbtion. less sag, a hell of
a lot less absorbtion. little sag, almost no shock absorbtion.

"NOYB"
Date: 9/18/2004 10:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
genie, shut up.

Subject: Why need anchor chain?
From: Gene Kearns
Date: 9/18/2004 7:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 18 Sep 2004 21:15:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

What happens during the interaction of forces on the rode would be
most fascinating.

a way to simplified look at it is to consider the chain/rode/line to
have
zero
weight pulled between two points (say 100 feet apart), then hang a 1#
weight
in
the center point and check how much strain it put on the end points when
the
weight hangs 20 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then 1 foot, then 1
inch,
then
1/10th inch. Just use trig to figure the forces.

So.... we just used intuitive trig to figure out why (1) we use scope
with an anchor and (2) why we don't tie boats to the dock with chain.
Now *that* is some real science......

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.


the forces get out of hand ********VERY******** quickly. Even worse, is
that
the weight in the middle (or chain) has momentum as the boat rocks, so
the
"natural" position of the weight overshoots and makes for seriously high
g-loads.


There is no weight "in the middle" (other than the weight of the rode)
.... so you put two anchors on the same rode? Odd.

Using that concept, most people use kellets and think it is a good and
useful idea.



http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/anchor.htm

" Having a lot of sag in the rode reduces shock loads "

Isn't that what started this whole argument? Anchor chain introduces sag in
the rode. Sag in the rode reduces shock loads. So I guess I was right when
I said that anchor chain acts as a shock absorber, eh jaxie?

no.

Where is the catenary on a yo-yo hanging from a finger? It is a line
between 2 points.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
clown, check the meaning of the word.

Gene Kearns
Date: 9/18/2004 7:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 18 Sep 2004 20:49:57 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

spell it any way you want, you still do not have any idea what it is.

yo-yo, a string strung between two points has, and always has, a
catenary.
go
look it up.

And a yo-yo is about the depth of your comprehension, here....

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/
Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillageinn.com/directions.asp Where
Southport,NC
is located.
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

hoary, when you were 18 you had no career plans greater than becoming the night
shift manager at the gas station.

btw, hoary, a whole lot of 18 year old boys are well past learning one handed
bra removal, and are practising panty removal using the toes.


catenaires, and they strains imposed on the end points, is a freshman
physics
discussion understood by tens of millions of 18 year old boys every year.

Times sure have change...when I was an 18-year-old boy, my interests
focused on the one-handed removal of bras. Chains came much later.


--
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
And don't forget to pay your taxes so the rich don't have to!

No kidding. With no sag, the anchor pulls loose...something even *you*
agreed with. Since anybody with a boat can tell you that anchors actually
work and don't pull loose most of the time, it stands to reason that there
must be a lot of sag in the line under most conditions. With me so far?

If there's a lot of sag in the line, then the sag provides absorption of
shock loads...just as I stated.









"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
yo-yo, the shock absorbing capability is dependent on how much sag is in
the
(inelastic) chain. lots of sag, lots of shock absorbtion. less sag, a
hell of
a lot less absorbtion. little sag, almost no shock absorbtion.

"NOYB"
Date: 9/18/2004 10:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
genie, shut up.

Subject: Why need anchor chain?
From: Gene Kearns
Date: 9/18/2004 7:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 18 Sep 2004 21:15:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

What happens during the interaction of forces on the rode would be
most fascinating.

a way to simplified look at it is to consider the chain/rode/line to
have
zero
weight pulled between two points (say 100 feet apart), then hang a 1#
weight
in
the center point and check how much strain it put on the end points
when
the
weight hangs 20 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then 1 foot, then 1
inch,
then
1/10th inch. Just use trig to figure the forces.

So.... we just used intuitive trig to figure out why (1) we use scope
with an anchor and (2) why we don't tie boats to the dock with chain.
Now *that* is some real science......

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.


the forces get out of hand ********VERY******** quickly. Even worse,
is
that
the weight in the middle (or chain) has momentum as the boat rocks,
so
the
"natural" position of the weight overshoots and makes for seriously
high
g-loads.


There is no weight "in the middle" (other than the weight of the rode)
.... so you put two anchors on the same rode? Odd.

Using that concept, most people use kellets and think it is a good and
useful idea.



http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/anchor.htm

" Having a lot of sag in the rode reduces shock loads "

Isn't that what started this whole argument? Anchor chain introduces sag
in
the rode. Sag in the rode reduces shock loads. So I guess I was right
when
I said that anchor chain acts as a shock absorber, eh jaxie?

yo-yo, IF you had some ham you could have some ham and eggs IF you had some
eggs.

let us look at your useless statement.

No kidding. With no sag,

there is ALWAYS some sag, even with all nylon

the anchor pulls loose...something even *you*
agreed with. Since anybody with a boat can tell you that anchors actually
work and don't pull loose ------------------ most of the time
------------------- , it stands to reason that there
must be a lot of sag in the line ---------------------- under most conditions
----------------------. With me so far?

If there's a lot of sag in the line,

as stated above, there is ALWAYS some sag

then the sag provides absorption of
shock loads...just as I stated.

but ------------------ how much --------------------------- absorbtion? 20
G's is more than the boat can take. In fact, on a 20,000# boat, 2 G's is more
than most anchor chain can begin to hold.

How much is 2 G's? it is stopping short in 4 inches when moving 8 feet per
second. Think of the wave action needed to make a boat move 8 feet in a
second. On a 20,000# pound boat that would be a 40,000# strain on the chain,
anchor, deck chocks.









"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
yo-yo, the shock absorbing capability is dependent on how much sag is in
the
(inelastic) chain. lots of sag, lots of shock absorbtion. less sag, a
hell of
a lot less absorbtion. little sag, almost no shock absorbtion.

"NOYB"
Date: 9/18/2004 10:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
genie, shut up.

Subject: Why need anchor chain?
From: Gene Kearns
Date: 9/18/2004 7:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 18 Sep 2004 21:15:33 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

What happens during the interaction of forces on the rode would be
most fascinating.

a way to simplified look at it is to consider the chain/rode/line to
have
zero
weight pulled between two points (say 100 feet apart), then hang a 1#
weight
in
the center point and check how much strain it put on the end points
when
the
weight hangs 20 feet, then 10 feet, then 5 feet, then 1 foot, then 1
inch,
then
1/10th inch. Just use trig to figure the forces.

So.... we just used intuitive trig to figure out why (1) we use scope
with an anchor and (2) why we don't tie boats to the dock with chain.
Now *that* is some real science......

And your "simplified look" does not apply.... an anchor rode does not
employ both ends at the same "Y" value.... therefore assumptions of
Y=Y'=0 do not obtain and is, therefore, the root cause of your lack
of understanding in this area. There isn't *anything* *attached* to
the middle.


the forces get out of hand ********VERY******** quickly. Even worse,
is
that
the weight in the middle (or chain) has momentum as the boat rocks,
so
the
"natural" position of the weight overshoots and makes for seriously
high
g-loads.


There is no weight "in the middle" (other than the weight of the rode)
.... so you put two anchors on the same rode? Odd.

Using that concept, most people use kellets and think it is a good and
useful idea.



http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/anchor.htm

" Having a lot of sag in the rode reduces shock loads "

Isn't that what started this whole argument? Anchor chain introduces sag
in
the rode. Sag in the rode reduces shock loads. So I guess I was right
when
I said that anchor chain acts as a shock absorber, eh jaxie?

btw, hoary, a whole lot of 18 year old boys are well past learning one handed
bra removal, and are practising panty removal using the toes.


Good grief, Jax. Reigning internet disruptive smartass troll and a circus
performer too? How *do* you get your toes up high enough to snag your panties?

jaxashby :

-Diego Garcia, according to widespread reports, is leased to the US Navy.-

Bilge- Leased is the word, chap, leased. It's still under UK flag, British
Indian Ocean Territory. Their laws still apply. They decide who comes and who
doesn't. But what would I know?
I've only been there in 1989, 1996, and 2001&2002.


-I understand the indigents removed to Mosambique (?) are still ****ed even
after several decades. Perhaps you can enlighten us?-jaxashby

Bilge- They were dumped off in Mauritius, and yes, many are still upset.
There is litigation that has been moving through the courts of the UK and the
US for quite a few years on their behalf. If you'd looked around the website I
linked you, you'd see that it is covered at some length...


-nah, you are a dum squat.-jaxashby

Bilge- Okay....pal. Sail yer little cruiser out to Dodge for a visit...I'll
make sure to catch a job back out there and hoist a few brewskis when they
seize your "hazard to navigation" and turn it into a "fish habitat" ...assuming
you can even make it out that far.


GFY


Mutiny is a Management Tool
Select Your Tattoo while Sober

btw, hoary, a whole lot of 18 year old boys are well past learning one
handed
bra removal, and are practising panty removal using the toes.


Good grief, Jax. Reigning internet disruptive smartass troll and a circus
performer too? How *do* you get your toes up high enough to snag your
panties?

_her_ panties.

so, how come with all that knowledge, bilge rat, you didn't know of the US
Naval presence there?

From: (Bilgeman)
Date: 9/19/2004 12:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

jaxashby :

-Diego Garcia, according to widespread reports, is leased to the US
Navy.-

Bilge- Leased is the word, chap, leased. It's still under UK flag, British
Indian Ocean Territory. Their laws still apply. They decide who comes and who
doesn't. But what would I know?
I've only been there in 1989, 1996, and 2001&2002.


-I understand the indigents removed to Mosambique (?) are still ****ed even
after several decades. Perhaps you can enlighten us?-jaxashby

Bilge- They were dumped off in Mauritius, and yes, many are still upset.
There is litigation that has been moving through the courts of the UK and the
US for quite a few years on their behalf. If you'd looked around the website
I
linked you, you'd see that it is covered at some length...


-nah, you are a dum squat.-jaxashby

Bilge- Okay....pal. Sail yer little cruiser out to Dodge for a visit...I'll
make sure to catch a job back out there and hoist a few brewskis when they
seize your "hazard to navigation" and turn it into a "fish habitat"
...assuming
you can even make it out that far.


GFY


Mutiny is a Management Tool
Select Your Tattoo while Sober

Subject: Why need anchor chain?
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 09/19/2004 10:07 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

so, how come with all that knowledge, bilge rat, you didn't know of the US
Naval presence there?


LOL Sounds like another one of your faulty assumptions, based on scanty
information, Doodles.

Shen

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
yo-yo, IF you had some ham you could have some ham and eggs IF you had
some
eggs.

let us look at your useless statement.

No kidding. With no sag,

there is ALWAYS some sag, even with all nylon

Once again...NO KIDDING. I already said that.


the anchor pulls loose...something even *you*
agreed with. Since anybody with a boat can tell you that anchors
actually
work and don't pull loose ------------------ most of the time
------------------- , it stands to reason that there
must be a lot of sag in the line ---------------------- under most
conditions
----------------------. With me so far?

If there's a lot of sag in the line,

as stated above, there is ALWAYS some sag

Correct...just as I stated.



then the sag provides absorption of
shock loads...just as I stated.

but ------------------ how much --------------------------- absorbtion?
20
G's is more than the boat can take. In fact, on a 20,000# boat, 2 G's is
more
than most anchor chain can begin to hold.

It doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that the anchor rode provides
shock absorption...just as I stated.



How much is 2 G's? it is stopping short in 4 inches when moving 8 feet per
second. Think of the wave action needed to make a boat move 8 feet in a
second. On a 20,000# pound boat that would be a 40,000# strain on the
chain,
anchor, deck chocks.

Your math is wrong.

It doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that the anchor rode provides
shock absorption...just as I stated.

bull****. as you stated.

"Bilgeman" wrote in message
...


Which of us has been there, you half-witted dip****?

Comparing jackassby to a half-wit is unfair to half-wits.

On a 20,000# pound boat that would be a 40,000# strain on the
chain,
anchor, deck chocks.

Your math is wrong.

tell it to your phsyicists at at any local college, yo-yo.

on the other hand, facing criminal manslaughter charges for killing an innocent
bystander is a piece of cake, right?

"NOYB"
Date: 9/19/2004 9:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:


"Bilgeman" wrote in message
...


Which of us has been there, you half-witted dip****?

Comparing jackassby to a half-wit is unfair to half-wits.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
on the other hand, facing criminal manslaughter charges for killing an
innocent
bystander is a piece of cake, right?



Because my anchor rode provided shock absorption?

******************* failed ******************** to provide. as any idiot would
expect.

on the other hand, facing criminal manslaughter charges for killing an
innocent
bystander is a piece of cake, right?


Because my anchor rode provided shock absorption?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
yo-yo, IF you had some ham you could have some ham and eggs IF you had
some
eggs.

let us look at your useless statement.

No kidding. With no sag,

there is ALWAYS some sag, even with all nylon

And if this is true as you say there is always shock absorption available
according to your reasoning.

no as in you do not know. Where is the catenary you say in this quote:
"yo-yo, a string strung between two points has, and always has, a
catenary. "

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
no.

Where is the catenary on a yo-yo hanging from a finger? It is a line
between 2 points.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
clown, check the meaning of the word.

Gene Kearns
Date: 9/18/2004 7:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 18 Sep 2004 20:49:57 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

spell it any way you want, you still do not have any idea what it is.

yo-yo, a string strung between two points has, and always has, a
catenary.
go
look it up.

And a yo-yo is about the depth of your comprehension, here....

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/
Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillageinn.com/directions.asp Where
Southport,NC
is located.
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

tomf123 quips:

-Yep - it's Monday, sure as heck. :)-

Bilge-Yep, all freakin' day.

Say, chum, you seem to have an IQ above room temperature, and to know the
difference between a bow pulpit and a saloon urinal...

What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup...is there a computer terminal in
the day room of some looney bin somewhere?

A lot of the posters in this group seem to sorely lacking in heavy meds and
long term, probing bouts of intensive therapy.

It was those damned movies, right?

Too many booger-eaters saw "The Perfect Storm" and "Pirates of the Carribean"
and decided to "run off to sea" and be Depp, Clooney, and Wahlberg, right?

I swear to Almighty, some of these drooling half-wits should have a mast
riveted to their foreheads and be flying 4 black balls from it.

I wouldn't trust some of these clowns to captain a rubber duck in a sitz bath,
let alone a motor or sailing vessel on the high seas.

WTF?






Mutiny is a Management Tool
Select Your Tattoo while Sober

to those who don't know who the scum bag Bilge Rat is, he makes a living --
such as it is -- crawling around the lowest spots in a filthy cargo ships to
replace worn electrical wiring. this, of course, makes him an expert in
recreational boats and how they are used.

(Bilgeman)
Date: 9/20/2004 7:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

tomf123 quips:

-Yep - it's Monday, sure as heck. :)-

Bilge-Yep, all freakin' day.

Say, chum, you seem to have an IQ above room temperature, and to know the
difference between a bow pulpit and a saloon urinal...

What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup...is there a computer terminal
in
the day room of some looney bin somewhere?

A lot of the posters in this group seem to sorely lacking in heavy meds and
long term, probing bouts of intensive therapy.

It was those damned movies, right?

Too many booger-eaters saw "The Perfect Storm" and "Pirates of the
Carribean"
and decided to "run off to sea" and be Depp, Clooney, and Wahlberg, right?

I swear to Almighty, some of these drooling half-wits should have a mast
riveted to their foreheads and be flying 4 black balls from it.

I wouldn't trust some of these clowns to captain a rubber duck in a sitz
bath,
let alone a motor or sailing vessel on the high seas.

WTF?






Mutiny is a Management Tool
Select Your Tattoo while Sober

**some** is a pedant use of the word. particularly in the context of multi-G
shock loads. i.e. "reducing" by "some" measure from 4.898 G's to 4.89799983
G's.

which word don't you understand, billei?


Date: 9/20/2004 1:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: . net


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
yo-yo, IF you had some ham you could have some ham and eggs IF you had
some
eggs.

let us look at your useless statement.

No kidding. With no sag,

there is ALWAYS some sag, even with all nylon

And if this is true as you say there is always shock absorption available
according to your reasoning.

mathematically, when then two points are one above the other you have, to use a
mathematical term, the trivial case. It is not an interesting case in this
discussion, but you are welcome to deal with the trivial case as long as you
want.

the rest of us will deal the infinity of useful cases.


Date: 9/20/2004 1:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: . net

no as in you do not know. Where is the catenary you say in this quote:
"yo-yo, a string strung between two points has, and always has, a
catenary. "

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
no.

Where is the catenary on a yo-yo hanging from a finger? It is a line
between 2 points.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
clown, check the meaning of the word.

Gene Kearns
Date: 9/18/2004 7:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 18 Sep 2004 20:49:57 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

spell it any way you want, you still do not have any idea what it is.

yo-yo, a string strung between two points has, and always has, a
catenary.
go
look it up.

And a yo-yo is about the depth of your comprehension, here....

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/
Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillageinn.com/directions.asp Where
Southport,NC
is located.
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

On 20 Sep 2004 11:16:45 GMT, (Bilgeman) wrote:

tomf123 quips:

-Yep - it's Monday, sure as heck. :)-

Bilge-Yep, all freakin' day.

Say, chum, you seem to have an IQ above room temperature, and to know the
difference between a bow pulpit and a saloon urinal...

What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup...is there a computer terminal in
the day room of some looney bin somewhere?

A lot of the posters in this group seem to sorely lacking in heavy meds and
long term, probing bouts of intensive therapy.

It was those damned movies, right?

Too many booger-eaters saw "The Perfect Storm" and "Pirates of the Carribean"
and decided to "run off to sea" and be Depp, Clooney, and Wahlberg, right?

I swear to Almighty, some of these drooling half-wits should have a mast
riveted to their foreheads and be flying 4 black balls from it.

I wouldn't trust some of these clowns to captain a rubber duck in a sitz bath,
let alone a motor or sailing vessel on the high seas.

ROTFLMAO!!!

Man, I love a good turn of phrase and some of those are classics. Mind
if I put them in my "All Time Great Sentences" folder? With proper
credit of course.

Well, it's like this. Over the years, long time denizens of Usenet
have basically run out of things to say. They pretty much have seen
every on-topic question four times and the net result is the Off Topic
musing and wanderings that currently infest most of the more popular
newsgroups. There are even newsgroups designed just for random
musings - alt.fan.tom-servo is one of the more notable ones. You
think this newsgroup is the day room of a cracker box palace, try that
one for a while.

However, that's off the point.

It would seem that once the long time members of any given newsgroup
get bored, all bets are off. It usually starts with a random comment
like "You know, those freakin' losers on the" and it degenerates from
there. Those who can turn a phrase and have some practice at
hyperbole annoy the hell out of those who don't think as fast or as
well (and I'm not casting any aspersions there - some just aren't as
practiced as others) - the name calling starts and their off running
the great game of "did not - did so".

All of the OT posts, name calling and puffy tall talk mask the great
store of knowledge and skill hidden between the other posts. Even
there, however, there can be conflict - there is a poster here who
hates FICHTS, for example, and will go to extreme lengths to make sure
that everybody knows it.

Other forums have taken up the slack of handing out knowledge in a
moderated and civil fashion - message, email and other groups tend,
usually sponsored by one thing or another leaving Usenet to it's
unusual brand of universal anarchy cleverly disguised as democracy in
action.

Last, the participants in a Usenet group have to be willing to engage
in this type of behavior. There are groups where there is a certain
amount of self and group enforced discipline keep things on-topic and
rolling merrily along. This is not one of them.

I wandered in here a while back to ask a question about a Christ Craft
I was thinking of restoring, received an answer and have been in and
out as time permits. There are plenty of lurkers here who
occasionally pop out, answer a question, then fade back into the
woodwork. Others multi-task on-topic and off-topic inbetween other
things. I am here because I'm on a new medicine for my arthritis and
it isn't working as well as it should so instead of being on my boats,
I'm hanging here during the day and inbetween working in my shop tying
flies, fixing/making rods and the occasional woodworking project.

To tell you the truth, I like this bunch. Compared to other
newsgroups, this is pretty sane in the long run.

You just have to seperate the wheat from the chaff if you will.

And with that, I'm off taking our new wards to school, play with the
dogs and I might take a ride down to the shore and watch the waves go
by.

Peace, love, knockwurst and beer.

All the best,

Tom
--------------

"What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup...
is there a computer terminal in the day room of
some looney bin somewhere?"

Bilgeman - circa 2004