On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 16:26:28 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:
Well, sometimes it's a partial deck above a ship's main afterdeck. But
sometimes it's not. :-)

Nope..ALWAYS a raised afterdeck, high enough to prevent taking on water
over the stern that could, in a heavy following sea, swamp the boat and
even sink it...a condition--as you correctly noted--from the Latin,
referred to as being "pooped." Hence the name "poop deck" for a RAISED
afterdeck.

I think you have it backwards. Puppis to poop
deck, thence pooped. The OED finds the use
of poop (actually pouppe) for the stern of a
ship as early as 1489, but not until 1748 does
someone use the word, in an account of a ship's
voyage, to mean hit by a large following sea.
The OED is not clear as to when it was first
used as a modifier of deck, but I see citations
that clearly predate 1748.

Peter W. Meek wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 16:26:28 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:


Doug Kanter wrote:

Well, sometimes it's a partial deck above a ship's main
afterdeck. But sometimes it's not. :-)

Nope..ALWAYS a raised afterdeck, high enough to prevent taking on
water over the stern that could, in a heavy following sea, swamp
the boat and even sink it...a condition--as you correctly
noted--from the Latin, referred to as being "pooped." Hence the
name "poop deck" for a RAISED afterdeck.


I think you have it backwards. Puppis to poop deck, thence pooped.
The OED finds the use of poop (actually pouppe) for the stern of a
ship as early as 1489, but not until 1748 does someone use the word,
in an account of a ship's voyage, to mean hit by a large following
sea. The OED is not clear as to when it was first used as a modifier
of deck, but I see citations that clearly predate 1748.

The first account in English perhaps, but that doesn't necessarily make
it the first account to use a derivation of the word to describe the
event in any Latin-based language...Common use nomenclature often
emerges much later than the design or device it refers to, and is often
derived from another language, so you'd have to research French and
Spanish accounts of voyages too, to know when any derivation of the
Latin word "pouppe" to describe an event was used.

The real question is whether ALL ships' sterns were called pouppe, or
only raised sterns...or whether all oceangoing ships' sterns originally
had raised afterdecks or a high stern to keep a following sea out. Most
did, as far back as the Vikings and even the Oriental middle eastern
trading vessels that pre-date the Viking explorations by quite a few
centuries. Most of their vessels would be called "canoe" hulls today, so
"afterdeck" or "transom" may not be the appropriate term for the aft end
of those vessels...but many were even higher in the stern than in the bow.

The history of shipbuilding and seafaring is fascinatin' stuff!

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_rid_of_boat_odors.htm

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 15:04:43 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

snip

The real question is whether ALL ships' sterns were called pouppe, or
only raised sterns...or whether all oceangoing ships' sterns originally
had raised afterdecks or a high stern to keep a following sea out. Most
did, as far back as the Vikings and even the Oriental middle eastern
trading vessels that pre-date the Viking explorations by quite a few
centuries. Most of their vessels would be called "canoe" hulls today, so
"afterdeck" or "transom" may not be the appropriate term for the aft end
of those vessels...but many were even higher in the stern than in the bow.

The history of shipbuilding and seafaring is fascinatin' stuff!

A small aside, but still on this topic.

We spent some time a while back sailing through Indonesia - often off
the beaten track. All the small fishing communities on the small
islands used, basically, sailing canoes as fishing boats. Some
planked, some real dugouts - often with brightly striped sails (the
sort of woven plastic we see made into laundry bags down here in Oz).

Just about every one of these little boat had a few planks nailed
around the stern, often brightly painted (or faded). At first, we
thought they were to protect the crew, but the 1 or 2 guys who go out
tend to sit midships - and half the time, there were such big
gaps.....

The style for every island was subtly different, but they fell into
two groups. High planks and low planks.

We had been chatting to a couple of chaps in their little boat one
night, talking about how they sailed and how we sailed. After they
went, we were musing that we must have seemed like a spaceship ariving
in this western yacht - steel rigging, braided ropes, winches etc.
Then we thought that there would have been another time when
"spaceships" arrived.

We realised that low planks came from islands colonised by the Dutch,
high from the Portuguese. The Dutch ships, especially the early East
India Company, were highly advanced for their days, with the then
modern feature of low "stern castles". At that time though, the
Portuguese however still retained the much higher, medieval style,
castles.

Well, that was the theory we came to over a drinkie or two, sitting
watching the sun go down one night. The next time we sail that way,
we'll make sure we start taking pics early so we can qualify the
theory.

Peter

www.oceanodyssey.net

Peter & Jean looking for sponsors for the Melbourne-Osaka Race in
2007, and promising we will get round to updating our website this
year.

"Do not measure your life by the number of breaths you take,
Rather by the number of times life just takes your breath away"