On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:13:12 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 04:17:56 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

If you ask a neighbor to control its dog and the neighbor refuses, then
yes.
It is equivalent to molesting your daughter. I do NOT agree that the
neighbor should be shot. However, you must realize that by refusing to
cooperate, the neighbor has made a request.

No he hasn't. That's YOUR choice. He's not the one with the problem,
you are.

Nope. By his INACTION in managing his pet correctly, he has said "I'm doing
nothing, and I dare you to do something about it".

That's negative logic. And since you can't prove a negative, it's not
a position that would hold water in a true debate.



He has asked you to bring all
possible legal forces to bear on him as quickly as possible.

Key word: Legal. Killing his pet is not justified, unless that pet
attacks you.

The food destruction legalities have already been explained to you. They
will NOT be explained again.

NOTHING except imminent threat is justification to kill. YOU need to
learn that.



As far as a dog simply crapping on your lawn: The law defines civil trespass
to INCLUDE causing or negligently permitting foreign substances to enter
private property. So, if neighbor's dog craps on your property, the human
has trespassed, even if he's on the sofa when the dog is on your property.

I'd love to see the case law which backs up your position. Even if you
are right, and the neighbor assumes all liability (and he does to some
degree) it still does not give you the right to circumvent the law.


If your neighbor is spray painting his garage and allows it to drift onto
your car, he's trespassing. Get it?

No, he's not trespassing. But he will be liable for cleaning up the
car, as this is actionable in small claims court.

It's your job to
involve the police, animal control people and courts immediately, the
goal
being to remove the animal from the home, extract a huge fine, and cause
as
much heartbreak as possible at the loss of a pet.

So you like inflicting pain on other people? I believe in giving back
too. If you killed my dog, lets just say that your land would soon
become unable to sustain life for the next several years....... And
then where would you be? Right, just where you are now, in an
apartment.

If you allow your dog to litter private property, YOU obviously enjoy
inflicting pain.

Litter = Pain? On which planet?

What if a neighbor needs to take 3 hours off from work to
wait at home for a carpet cleaning service.

Why would he? I already told you, 5 minutes with a bottle of spray
cleaner and brush. No carpet service is necessary. You really do live
in a world of extremes.....

You have stolen from them,
Davey. Because of your dog, the neighbor may end up experiencing friction
with his boss. If the boss is an asshole, the employee may not hear the end
of the aggravation for quite some time, all because you were too busy on the
sofa to walk your dog.

Oh brother! You should be writing novels. A meteor might hit your yard
tomorrow too. Living your life according to "what-if" scenario
strawmen, is about as unrealistic as one could get.


Remember: You are honoring
the neighbor's explicit request. As a side benefit, you will help his
children learn something which he was too stupid or lazy to teach them -
owning a pet involves work.

Yes it does. But it is not your place to teach them.

Losing your dog is better than prison, don't you think?

No one was ever sent to prison for having his dog crap on a neighbor's
lawn. You really do need a reality check Doug.


Dog owners like that really don't want to own pets. They probably get
dogs
because someone else in the house wanted one, but was also too lazy to
care
for it correctly.

That much is true in many cases. But it's still not your place.

Here, after 3 complaints, the dog catcher will remove the dog from the owner
PERMANENTLY and arrange for a $250.00 fine. Do you think the dog catcher
enjoys inflicting pain?

That's his job, and his job is justified under the law. Your vigilante
approach is neither.


Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:13:12 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 04:17:56 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

If you ask a neighbor to control its dog and the neighbor refuses,
then
yes.
It is equivalent to molesting your daughter. I do NOT agree that the
neighbor should be shot. However, you must realize that by refusing to
cooperate, the neighbor has made a request.

No he hasn't. That's YOUR choice. He's not the one with the problem,
you are.

Nope. By his INACTION in managing his pet correctly, he has said "I'm
doing
nothing, and I dare you to do something about it".

That's negative logic. And since you can't prove a negative, it's not
a position that would hold water in a true debate.



He has asked you to bring all
possible legal forces to bear on him as quickly as possible.

Key word: Legal. Killing his pet is not justified, unless that pet
attacks you.

The food destruction legalities have already been explained to you. They
will NOT be explained again.

NOTHING except imminent threat is justification to kill. YOU need to
learn that.



As far as a dog simply crapping on your lawn: The law defines civil
trespass
to INCLUDE causing or negligently permitting foreign substances to enter
private property. So, if neighbor's dog craps on your property, the human
has trespassed, even if he's on the sofa when the dog is on your
property.

I'd love to see the case law which backs up your position. Even if you
are right, and the neighbor assumes all liability (and he does to some
degree) it still does not give you the right to circumvent the law.

Ask any lawyer, Dave. This was explained to me by our town justice when he
was my son's baseball coach. The conversation began over a problem with my
immediate neighbor, who continually allowed the ChemLawn fools to let their
sprays drift onto my garden. That is civil trespass. If a neighbor breaks
your window with a baseball, you talk to him. The 38th time it happens, you
nail him for civil trespass. Exactly the same as a person actually entering
your property when you'd rather he didn't. In my case, the judge offered to
provide an injunction, which would force the police to arrest (right on the
spot) the neighbor and the ChemLawn fools if they continued to spray near
the property line. Luckily, it never came to that point.


If your neighbor is spray painting his garage and allows it to drift onto
your car, he's trespassing. Get it?

No, he's not trespassing. But he will be liable for cleaning up the
car, as this is actionable in small claims court.

You must've spoken to a different judge. It is civil trespass. If you take
him to court and he agrees to pay for all damages, trespass will never come
up in the discussion. But, if he mouths off at the judge, he will, indeed,
have trespass tacked onto his rap sheet.



So you like inflicting pain on other people? I believe in giving back
too. If you killed my dog, lets just say that your land would soon
become unable to sustain life for the next several years....... And
then where would you be? Right, just where you are now, in an
apartment.

If you allow your dog to litter private property, YOU obviously enjoy
inflicting pain.

Litter = Pain? On which planet?

In places where people enjoy beauty, not garbage. On private property, the
definition of beauty is none of your business. If I say your garbage doesn't
belong on my property, you have one choice: Do not speak. Clean it up and
stop it from coming my way.



What if a neighbor needs to take 3 hours off from work to
wait at home for a carpet cleaning service.

Why would he? I already told you, 5 minutes with a bottle of spray
cleaner and brush. No carpet service is necessary. You really do live
in a world of extremes.....

No. I own a high-functioning nose. And, on my property, you do not determine
maintenance methods.


You have stolen from them,
Davey. Because of your dog, the neighbor may end up experiencing friction
with his boss. If the boss is an asshole, the employee may not hear the
end
of the aggravation for quite some time, all because you were too busy on
the
sofa to walk your dog.

Oh brother! You should be writing novels. A meteor might hit your yard
tomorrow too. Living your life according to "what-if" scenario
strawmen, is about as unrealistic as one could get.

This "what if" scenario has been going on for 20 years, Dave. Therefore, it
is real.

Dave, you seem to support the idea that dog owners should feel fine about
letting their vermine run around the neighborhood. How do you justify that?

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 18:40:26 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:




As far as a dog simply crapping on your lawn: The law defines civil
trespass
to INCLUDE causing or negligently permitting foreign substances to enter
private property. So, if neighbor's dog craps on your property, the human
has trespassed, even if he's on the sofa when the dog is on your
property.

I'd love to see the case law which backs up your position. Even if you
are right, and the neighbor assumes all liability (and he does to some
degree) it still does not give you the right to circumvent the law.

Ask any lawyer, Dave. This was explained to me by our town justice when he
was my son's baseball coach. The conversation began over a problem with my
immediate neighbor, who continually allowed the ChemLawn fools to let their
sprays drift onto my garden. That is civil trespass. If a neighbor breaks
your window with a baseball, you talk to him. The 38th time it happens, you
nail him for civil trespass. Exactly the same as a person actually entering
your property when you'd rather he didn't. In my case, the judge offered to
provide an injunction, which would force the police to arrest (right on the
spot) the neighbor and the ChemLawn fools if they continued to spray near
the property line. Luckily, it never came to that point.

That's REALLY a stretch interpretation of the law. But then again, the
way some cases have been tried lately, I shouldn't be surprised.
Trespass laws were never intended to apply to situations like this.
But like many other laws, this one has been convoluted to fit into
otherwise open territory.

But it still does not allow you to kill the neighbor's dog........

If your neighbor is spray painting his garage and allows it to drift onto
your car, he's trespassing. Get it?

No, he's not trespassing. But he will be liable for cleaning up the
car, as this is actionable in small claims court.

You must've spoken to a different judge. It is civil trespass. If you take
him to court and he agrees to pay for all damages, trespass will never come
up in the discussion. But, if he mouths off at the judge, he will, indeed,
have trespass tacked onto his rap sheet.

Maybe. But most civil damages cases rarely need to go into that area.
It is sufficient to prove negligence on the part of the defendant in
order to be awarded damages.

So you like inflicting pain on other people? I believe in giving back
too. If you killed my dog, lets just say that your land would soon
become unable to sustain life for the next several years....... And
then where would you be? Right, just where you are now, in an
apartment.

If you allow your dog to litter private property, YOU obviously enjoy
inflicting pain.

Litter = Pain? On which planet?

In places where people enjoy beauty, not garbage. On private property, the
definition of beauty is none of your business. If I say your garbage doesn't
belong on my property, you have one choice: Do not speak. Clean it up and
stop it from coming my way.

I know some people who start having convulsions when a single
dandelion graces their otherwise perfect green grass. I have a friend
who moved next to one of these people. I'm sure he was clutching his
bottle of nitro pills when my friend's kids would run around their
lawn blowing dandelion seeds around. I would hate to be so wound up
about such things. Life is too short.

What if a neighbor needs to take 3 hours off from work to
wait at home for a carpet cleaning service.

Why would he? I already told you, 5 minutes with a bottle of spray
cleaner and brush. No carpet service is necessary. You really do live
in a world of extremes.....

No. I own a high-functioning nose. And, on my property, you do not determine
maintenance methods.

I'm merely illustrating just how extreme you are. I have a high
functioning nose as well. I can guarantee you that my method was
effective, and not nearly as costly or time consuming as your
illustration.
That way you can take the money, you saved on a cleaning service, and
apply it toward a fence.

You have stolen from them,
Davey. Because of your dog, the neighbor may end up experiencing friction
with his boss. If the boss is an asshole, the employee may not hear the
end
of the aggravation for quite some time, all because you were too busy on
the
sofa to walk your dog.

Oh brother! You should be writing novels. A meteor might hit your yard
tomorrow too. Living your life according to "what-if" scenario
strawmen, is about as unrealistic as one could get.

This "what if" scenario has been going on for 20 years, Dave. Therefore, it
is real.

I highly doubt that your novelized scenarios are anywhere close to
reality. No one has that much stress in their lives, and are still
alive.



Dave, you seem to support the idea that dog owners should feel fine about
letting their vermine run around the neighborhood. How do you justify that?

Live and let live. Don't sweat the small stuff. Anticipate future
problems and take preventative measures to avoid them. Treat people
like you would like them to treat you. When life gives you lemons,
make lemonade. And last, but not least; **** happens.

Dave