"Calif Bill" wrote:
You are showing a great affliction of "Dumbness". This is not Russia,
you get arrested, then charged if the DA and courts think there is enough
evidence and then sent to trial. Until the trial is concluded with a
guilty verdict, the person(s) charged are considered innocent! They have
been arrested, now the court system is considering if there is enough
evidence to bring them to trial. Better study up more on the American
legal system. And if you consider the "Bad cop / Good cop" routine to be
abuse, you will consider all interrogation abuse. This abuse (?) is
nowhere the abuse that the Iranians and even the Iraqis considered abuse.
Stone a woman to death because she was outside without a blanket (burka)
covering her, etc. Electrial shock for prisoners.
Bill

So if the US cops cut your balls off and stuff them in your mouth, they
haven't really abused you because you are still alive, not stoned to death.
And if they rape your wive in front of you, you are BOTH still alive
(DEFINITELY not abuse, because you haven't had any electrical shocks).
There are a lot of things that are abusive. Just because there are people
who do worse doesn't mean that it is OK for the cops to be "a little
abusive".

Jim

Oh, BULL****! Chuck. They have been arrested, the allegations are being
addressed. They are innocent until proven guilty. Your illustrious Clinton
Regime used the same tactic, except for the bright light, on a whole bunch
of people before burning them up in Waco. You liberals all defended the
same tactics and also the lies that were used to bring in US Military tanks
(against the law, except for drug enforcement). The allegations are being
addressed. This is not a Mai Lai type situation. They are not accused to
beating, electrifying parts of the body, raping his daughter / wife in front
of him. The fact that they have been arrested, shows the military is
addressing the boundries of conduct.
Bill

Inhale slowly and deeply, Bill. I was addressing the response from some guy who
seemed to imply it didn't matter what we did to prisoners in Iraq becuase the
Saddam Hussein team had done far worse.

If we are screwing up, or some of our guys and gals are, we should address it
as we seem to be doing........

I'm the guy who said....
When the military justice system is arresting and charging US
interrogators who
step over the line into torture and sadism, the system is working about as
well
as we can hope.

You get right up to the edge of the "Lookie There!" defense yourself.......

Your illustrious Clinton
Regime used the same tactic, except for the bright light, on a whole bunch
of people before burning them up in Waco.

And then you get out of some very thin ice, indeed, with this goofy line:

You liberals all defended the
same tactics and also the lies that were used to bring in US Military tanks
(against the law, except for drug enforcement).

Let's see here. According to you, we liberals *all* defended the tactics and
the lies used to bring military tanks against the Koresh compound in Waco. Hey,
I'm a liberal. I have been for 35 or 40 years. Refresh my memory, just exactly
how did I defend the lies and tactics used to bring tanks in to Waco?

See how you build a trap for yourself when you stereotype and overstate?

I apologize if you are not the one berating the military for abuse. I read
the piece and thought you were the one. As to the Liberals supporting the
Waco disaster, there were a myriad of liberals all saying they had it
coming, and should not have resisted and the government was correct. Not
being a Google sort, I will not go back and see if you were the 1% of the
liberals who did not rise up in support of Janet Reno. I do remember any
Lib on this board saying it was wrong, so you may be condemned by omission
instead of commission.
Bill

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Oh, BULL****! Chuck. They have been arrested, the allegations are being
addressed. They are innocent until proven guilty. Your illustrious
Clinton
Regime used the same tactic, except for the bright light, on a whole
bunch
of people before burning them up in Waco. You liberals all defended the
same tactics and also the lies that were used to bring in US Military
tanks
(against the law, except for drug enforcement). The allegations are
being
addressed. This is not a Mai Lai type situation. They are not accused
to
beating, electrifying parts of the body, raping his daughter / wife in
front
of him. The fact that they have been arrested, shows the military is
addressing the boundries of conduct.
Bill

Inhale slowly and deeply, Bill. I was addressing the response from some
guy who
seemed to imply it didn't matter what we did to prisoners in Iraq becuase
the
Saddam Hussein team had done far worse.

If we are screwing up, or some of our guys and gals are, we should address
it
as we seem to be doing........

I'm the guy who said....
When the military justice system is arresting and charging US
interrogators who
step over the line into torture and sadism, the system is working about
as
well
as we can hope.

You get right up to the edge of the "Lookie There!" defense
yourself.......

Your illustrious Clinton
Regime used the same tactic, except for the bright light, on a whole
bunch
of people before burning them up in Waco.

And then you get out of some very thin ice, indeed, with this goofy line:

You liberals all defended the
same tactics and also the lies that were used to bring in US Military
tanks
(against the law, except for drug enforcement).

Let's see here. According to you, we liberals *all* defended the tactics
and
the lies used to bring military tanks against the Koresh compound in Waco.
Hey,
I'm a liberal. I have been for 35 or 40 years. Refresh my memory, just
exactly
how did I defend the lies and tactics used to bring tanks in to Waco?

See how you build a trap for yourself when you stereotype and overstate?

"Jim Justjim" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote:
You are showing a great affliction of "Dumbness". This is not Russia,
you get arrested, then charged if the DA and courts think there is
enough
evidence and then sent to trial. Until the trial is concluded with a
guilty verdict, the person(s) charged are considered innocent! They
have
been arrested, now the court system is considering if there is enough
evidence to bring them to trial. Better study up more on the American
legal system. And if you consider the "Bad cop / Good cop" routine to be
abuse, you will consider all interrogation abuse. This abuse (?) is
nowhere the abuse that the Iranians and even the Iraqis considered
abuse.
Stone a woman to death because she was outside without a blanket (burka)
covering her, etc. Electrial shock for prisoners.
Bill

So if the US cops cut your balls off and stuff them in your mouth, they
haven't really abused you because you are still alive, not stoned to
death.
And if they rape your wive in front of you, you are BOTH still alive
(DEFINITELY not abuse, because you haven't had any electrical shocks).
There are a lot of things that are abusive. Just because there are people
who do worse doesn't mean that it is OK for the cops to be "a little
abusive".

Jim

You dummy!!!! Where did I say it is OK to beat the person, etc. but
according to you and Ignoramus, the Good cop / bad cop routine is abuse.
Bill

There's a world of differance between interrogation and torture, my european
friend. Depriving a possible terrorist/combatant of comfort for a few days
is not torture. Raping and killing a man's family in front of his eyes
is...

I see where you get your handle...

Rob

"Ignoramus31468" wrote in message
a.com...
Um, does the rubbish below somehow exonerate American torturers?

i

In article , Hudsucker Industries
wrote:
It's funny that sleep deprivation and prolonged standing is considered
"torture" when compared with the way the Iraqis interrogated their
Kuwaiti
prisoners: They have the man sit in the chair (tied) while soldiers
rape
his wife/children, then cut their heads off. Then they stick electrical
probes in the man's anus/mouth and electrocute him slowly until he
dies--they really don't need answers, after all--it's all for their fun.

Please, get a life liberal journalists.

Sorry for the rant.

Rob


"Ignoramus30984" wrote in message
a.com...
Our local newsgroup imperialist Empress Otku claimed that we liberated
Iraqis from human rights abuses.

Turns out that it is difficult to rule an occupied country without
human rights abuses...

A highlight from a report on American torture chambers:

Aballey was hooded and handcuffed and made to stand or kneel
facing a
wall
for nearly eight days while he was being interrogated, the report
said.
He suffered from sleep deprivation because a bright light was
placed
next
to his head while distorted music was booming from lounspeakers,
according to
the document.
His knees bled, and one his leg swell to the size of a football,
while his
father was held in the cell next to him and could hear his son's
screams, the
report said.

Full article follows.

i

In article , AFP /
Maxim
Kniazkov wrote:

WASHINGTON, July 26 (AFP) - Four US soldiers serving in Iraq have
been
charged with abuse of Iraqi prisoners of war and are awaiting a
decision
on
whether they will face a court-martial, a defense official said
Saturday.
The charges mark the first time US personnel have been formally
accused of
mistreating Iraqi prisoners since the beginning of the US-led
invasion
of Iraq
on March 20, the official said.
The names of the soldiers have not been released, but they are
reported to
belong to a military police unit that helped guard prisoners at Camp
Bucca,
near the southern Iraqi city of Umm Qasr, last May.
"They have been charged with Article 32, which is basically like a
grand
jury in civilian terms, based on an investigation into allegations of
mistreatment of POWs," Lieutenant Commander Nick Balice, a spokesman
for
the
US Central Command, told AFP.
The charges are based on an incident that occurred at the POW camp
on
May
12, the nature of which Balice would not disclose.
But other sources indicated the soldiers, two of whom are said to
be
women,
are alleged to have used unwarranted physical force against the
prisoners.
Under Article 32 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, a
commander
of
the unit where the alleged infraction occurred must have -- together
with
military prosecutors -- a hearing to review evidence and recommend a
further
course of action, according to defense officials.
"Certainly, there are several things that could happen," Balice
explained.
"It could be dismissed. It could be some other form of disciplinary
action. Or
it could a court-martial. It all depends on the determination."
He said no date for the hearing has been set.
The announcement of the charges came three days after the human
rights
group Amnesty International issued a scathing report, saying it had
collected
many allegation torture or ill-treatment by US-led coalition forces
in
Iraq.
Iraqi inmates held at various US-run detention centers are
subjected
prolonged hooding, sleep deprivation, restraint in painful
positions --
sometimes combined with exposure to loud music and bright light,
according to
the document compiled by Amnesty monitors who have been working in
Iraq
since
late April.
The monitors pointed, among others, to the case of 39-year-old
Khreisan
Khalis Aballey and his 80-year-old father, who were arrested at their
home on
April 30.
Aballey was hooded and handcuffed and made to stand or kneel
facing a
wall
for nearly eight days while he was being interrogated, the report
said.
He suffered from sleep deprivation because a bright light was
placed
next
to his head while distorted music was booming from lounspeakers,
according to
the document.
His knees bled, and one his leg swell to the size of a football,
while his
father was held in the cell next to him and could hear his son's
screams, the
report said.
"Many of the coalition soldiers and military police engaged in law
enforcement do not have basic skills and tools in civilian policing
or
to be
aware of the law they are supposed to be applying," said Curt
Goering,
one of
Amnesty's monitors.
mk/aln

US-Iraq-justice

"Calif Bill" wrote in message news:bg3no6 Better study up more on the American legal system.
And if you consider the "Bad cop / Good cop" routine to be abuse, you will
consider all interrogation abuse. This abuse (?) is nowhere the abuse that
the Iranians and even the Iraqis considered abuse. Stone a woman to death
because she was outside without a blanket (burka) covering her, etc.
Electrial shock for prisoners.
Bill

So, because it was interrogation, you don't consider it abuse?
I guess that would also mean that you don't believe that we, or any
other nations, should abide by the Geneva Convention?

We certainly should all know about Iranians and Iraqis abusing there
people, the republicans have been in bed with them since Reagan.

those four soldiers, are from my area, N.E. Pennsylvania, near Scranton.
Locally, in my newspaper, they listed there names, and what they do for a
living, besides being in the service.
one is a College Teacher
one is a Full Time State Trooper for Pennsylvania
one is a Full Time Prison Guard, at a State Prison
I think the fourth one is also a prison guard.
They are All GOOD PEOPLE, GETTING A SCREWING.

"Joseph Stachyra" wrote in message
...
those four soldiers, are from my area, N.E. Pennsylvania, near Scranton.
Locally, in my newspaper, they listed there names, and what they do for
a
living, besides being in the service.
one is a College Teacher
one is a Full Time State Trooper for Pennsylvania
one is a Full Time Prison Guard, at a State Prison
I think the fourth one is also a prison guard.
They are All GOOD PEOPLE, GETTING A SCREWING.


Funny they didn't give profiles of the Iraqis...

Dan

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 22:43:54 GMT, "Jeff McCann"
wrote:


"Joseph Stachyra" wrote in message
...
those four soldiers, are from my area, N.E. Pennsylvania, near Scranton.
Locally, in my newspaper, they listed there names, and what they do for
a
living, besides being in the service.
one is a College Teacher
one is a Full Time State Trooper for Pennsylvania
one is a Full Time Prison Guard, at a State Prison
I think the fourth one is also a prison guard.
They are All GOOD PEOPLE, GETTING A SCREWING.


I don't have any special details, but just by knowing the occupations of the
latter three, and especially the last two, my suspicions as to the
probability of their guilt is raised slightly. The psychological, social
and intellectual makeup of the "average corrections officer" makes for,
frankly, pretty scary reading. You'd be surprised by the many ways that
jailors resemble jailees more than they do the general population.

The substantiated record of abuse of prisoners by CO's and especially their
propensity to stand aside and allow prisoners to abuse the weaker among them
is horrendous, and one of the great unheralded wrongs of our society, as
well as a contributing factor to inmates exiting prison more screwed up than
when they went in. It would not be difficult to imagine how the decrease in
perceived accountability presented in the Iraqi situation might lead to
abuse of prisoners by their guards.

But the accused are individuals, not necessarily anything like the "average
CO." Their willingness to serve in the Reserves (NG?) is to their credit.
I'll be interested in learning the evidence against them and their defenses.
Allegations of abuse of POWs is not like allegations of abuse by prisoners
in the local lock-up, a minor affair that can usually be safely ignored or
covered up. It is an international matter under the Geneva Conventions, as
well as a serious offence under the UCMJ. Are we talking just an occasional
shoving and harsh words, or midnight beatings, medical neglect and
systematic abuse? I hope they aren't being railroaded for political
reasons.

Jeff


Jeff- your response intrigues me a bit.

I've spent the last year on a construction project inside a maximum
security prison in New York State. Everywhere we go, we are
accompanied by a CO; the facility holds about 2,000 inmates.
Murderers, rapists, etc.

I'll concede that there is no "love lost" between the CO's and the
inmates, but I have seen no evidence of abuse from the CO's. On the
contrary, there is the "lockdown" gallery where inmates regularly
attempt to throw excrement and urine on the CO's. Certain inmates are
known as "****-spitters". That's right. They will mix excrement with
water, sip a mouthful, and spit it on the first available CO.

Whenever two inmates get involved in a fist/razor blade/garote fight,
the CO's have to jump in and break it up. Often, there is blood. Did
you know that CO's regularly undergo AIDS treatment because they
cannot force an inmate to take an AIDS test? What a gift to share
with your family. "Honey, I got blood on me. I'm sleeping on the
couch for a while. By the way, keep the kids away from me."

After spending 40 hours a week, for many months, inside this facility,
I am thankful that there are people willing to do the job. It sucks.
Nobody says "Thanks". It is dirty, there is "risk" everywhere, and
you get to deal with the worst of people every minute of every day.

I am a strong supporter of human rights, but these CO's earn their
paycheck every day, and put up with more "stuff" than you will see in
a lifetime.

Try another mocassin for a day.
noah

Courtesy of Lee Yeaton,
See the boats of rec.boats
www.TheBayGuide.com/rec.boats

Joseph Stachyra wrote:
those four soldiers, are from my area, N.E. Pennsylvania, near Scranton.
Locally, in my newspaper, they listed there names, and what they do for a
living, besides being in the service.
one is a College Teacher
one is a Full Time State Trooper for Pennsylvania
one is a Full Time Prison Guard, at a State Prison
I think the fourth one is also a prison guard.
They are All GOOD PEOPLE, GETTING A SCREWING.



They didn't know not to abuse prisoners of war?


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