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Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
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Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:50:46 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote: http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ My Dad and his war buddies used to tell tales of things like this on North Atlantic convoy duty - he commanded a DE and often said that he sometimes spent more time under water than on top of it. Great pictures. Thanks for the link. Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
Yikes! Did you see the link to this pic?
http://www.naval.com/canadian-ice/ And folks in this newsgroup complain about the cold weather. :^) -Jim |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:50:46 GMT, "Calif Bill" wrote: http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ My Dad and his war buddies used to tell tales of things like this on North Atlantic convoy duty - he commanded a DE and often said that he sometimes spent more time under water than on top of it. Great pictures. Thanks for the link. Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 Had a roommate in school that had been on the Bonne Homme Richard carrier during a typhoon. HE said they had green water tolling down the deck, and never figured out how the DE's and destroyers survived. Bill |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:48:04 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:50:46 GMT, "Calif Bill" wrote: http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ My Dad and his war buddies used to tell tales of things like this on North Atlantic convoy duty - he commanded a DE and often said that he sometimes spent more time under water than on top of it. Great pictures. Thanks for the link. Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 Had a roommate in school that had been on the Bonne Homme Richard carrier during a typhoon. HE said they had green water tolling down the deck, and never figured out how the DE's and destroyers survived. My Dad and three his friends (along with others) were co-opted from the USCG into the Navy expressly for the purpose of DE duty. They were classmates and all four eventually ended up in the South Pacific on DDs. Man, the tales they told - unbelievable. Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
I always get a kick out of seeing that picture, having spent a good deal
of time on that ship in similar conditions, including one time having to go forward to close the door on the foc'sle, which led below to the "rope" locker. otn |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
Jim wrote in message ... Yikes! Did you see the link to this pic? http://www.naval.com/canadian-ice/ And folks in this newsgroup complain about the cold weather. :^) -Jim Darn dangerous. The crew usually have to go out armed with fire axes to chop the ice off. Too much and the ship might roll. |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
Depends on the ship and it's "initial" GM
Don White wrote: Jim wrote in message ... Yikes! Did you see the link to this pic? http://www.naval.com/canadian-ice/ And folks in this newsgroup complain about the cold weather. :^) -Jim Darn dangerous. The crew usually have to go out armed with fire axes to chop the ice off. Too much and the ship might roll. |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
otnmbrd wrote:
I always get a kick out of seeing that picture, having spent a good deal of time on that ship in similar conditions, Spent a week in same conditions one Christmas near the dateline on the "Kenai" running from Valdez to Tsingtao. Winds over 100kn sustained, waves over 100 feet. On the crests it was impossible to tell the difference between the air and the water. The noise alone was enough to write sea stories about. The sound of the wind was only drowned out by the sound of books, TV sets, refrigerators, and the contents of closets and desks crashing from bulkhead to bulkhead in the room above as the ship rolled. We lost 5 liferafts, about 200 feet of railing, the ladders on the kingposts, stove in the overhead above the cross passage and wiped off most of the strain gauges on the main deck. There was no way in hell any human could have survived a trip to the foc'sle. Well, maybe Jax could, and he probably did near the rocks off Cape Hatteras where the Gulf Stream lurks. Rick |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
Calif Bill wrote:
http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss it:-) Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in open water are the stuff of over active imaginations & of course once again that Rick is almost as big a liar as Harry. Before you knee jerk have a good look at the pics & you'll see that there is not likely to be a 30ft wave there in any of them & that's about as bad as it gets as claimed by the pic posters. Well found properly handled small boats in open water have little the fear from any of that. K |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
K. Smith wrote in message ... Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss it:-) Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in open water are the stuff of over active imaginations & of course once again that Rick is almost as big a liar as Harry. Before you knee jerk have a good look at the pics & you'll see that there is not likely to be a 30ft wave there in any of them & that's about as bad as it gets as claimed by the pic posters. Well found properly handled small boats in open water have little the fear from any of that. K You may have no problem, your derelict tub run aground in some backwoods swamp on the Gold Coast. People who get out on the real ocean say different. |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
K. Smith wrote...
Before you knee jerk have a good look at the pics & you'll see that there is not likely to be a 30ft wave there in any of them Uh-huh. Please explain how a wave of less than 30 feet is going to roll clear over the bow of a large ship with approx 60 feet of freeboard. Well found properly handled small boats in open water have little the fear from any of that. Don White wrote: You may have no problem, your derelict tub run aground in some backwoods swamp on the Gold Coast. People who get out on the real ocean say different. Yes, it's pretty clear that "K. Smith" knows little about this. Maybe it's wishful thinking? I often hear the crab-crusher guys talking about their ideal of an "All-weather go-anywhere" cruiser... and think about the North Atlantic storm that a USN destroyer went through, while I was on it... caused a couple million dollars of damage, ripping up 1 1/2" welded steel fittings and sending water flooding in the forced-draft blower intakes (among other things).... and I don't think any small boat is going to survive that other than in pieces. Not to mention that the people in it wold be pulped against the cabin sides. Sorry, but reality is what it is, not what you wish it was. Fresh Breezes Doug King |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:45:47 -0500, DSK wrote:
I don't think any small boat is going to survive that other than in pieces. Not to mention that the people in it wold be pulped against the cabin sides. ===================================== More often than not, thats what seems to happen with small seaworthy boats. The boat turns out to be stronger than the people inside, and after getting rolled once, or dropped into the trough of a big wave on its beam ends, the folks inside get broken ribs and concussions. A lot of small boats have been found still floating long after the people were taken off. I know several people who have gotten broken ribs in conditions much less severe than those in the pictures. If you're not coughing up blood however, or unconcious, it's considered unmanly to not finish the race. :-) |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
Great pix! Thanx... -- Capt. Frank __c \ _ | \_ __\_| oooo \_____ ~~~~|______________/ ~~~~~ www.home.earthlink.net/~aartworks "Calif Bill" wrote in message hlink.net... http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:08:02 +1100, "K. Smith"
wrote: Calif Bill wrote: http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss it:-) Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in open water are the stuff of over active imaginations Ummmmm....ok, I'll bite. Why? Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
I don't remember, was "Kenai" a flush deck or raised foc'sle ship? (If
flush deck, going to the foc'sle in even relatively calm conditions could be dangerous to ones health.) In the storm in question, seas were running @60'. The Captain slowed down to basically "hove too" and headed directly into the seas. On that ship, the raised foc'sle was @30'-40' above the water when loaded and in that condition was only taking spray (trust me, we watched for awhile). If you look at the picture, you'll see that along the center catwalk, there are a number of places you could go too (deepwell pump houses) for protection. I was able to get forward (damn spray and rain STINGS at those wind speeds) secure the door, check for other damage (there was a good deal of it), retrieve the ship's bell (it had been broken off and was lodged in between some piping) and then head back. About halfway back, the old man blew the whistle to warn me of a "big one" coming ..... he says that's the fastest he ever saw me move. Also, if you look at the picture of the foremast, in this storm the brackets for all the deck lights (near the top of the mast) were bent up from seas coming aboard. (Ship in question ... Delaware Trader). otn Rick wrote: otnmbrd wrote: I always get a kick out of seeing that picture, having spent a good deal of time on that ship in similar conditions, Spent a week in same conditions one Christmas near the dateline on the "Kenai" running from Valdez to Tsingtao. Winds over 100kn sustained, waves over 100 feet. On the crests it was impossible to tell the difference between the air and the water. The noise alone was enough to write sea stories about. The sound of the wind was only drowned out by the sound of books, TV sets, refrigerators, and the contents of closets and desks crashing from bulkhead to bulkhead in the room above as the ship rolled. We lost 5 liferafts, about 200 feet of railing, the ladders on the kingposts, stove in the overhead above the cross passage and wiped off most of the strain gauges on the main deck. There was no way in hell any human could have survived a trip to the foc'sle. Well, maybe Jax could, and he probably did near the rocks off Cape Hatteras where the Gulf Stream lurks. Rick |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
otnmbrd wrote:
I don't remember, was "Kenai" a flush deck or raised foc'sle ship? (If flush deck, going to the foc'sle in even relatively calm conditions could be dangerous to ones health.) Kenai has raised foc'sle. We were hove to trying to maintain steerage to keep the bow about 45 degrees or so to the seas. Making about 40 turns or so, was really grim listening to the engine, hoping that we wouldn't lose the plant. Even hove to we were rolling so badly it tore the Sat-A off the mount and snapped the HF whips. We had a "hydrostatic" load on board but still had a good deal of freeboard but there was no way to avoid taking seas when the roll was out of phase. It was the most incredible storm I have ever experienced in quite a few years at sea. No one even spoke for days, too exhausted, too stressed to do anything other than minimal movement to go on watch, no hot food for the whole week. What amazed me was the pressure of the water was enough to bend a perfect curve in the ladders on the kingposts ... the idea that the water could bend that steel when the only area it found was about 3 inches wide on the side straps. The sight of the deck movement was awe inspiring, thank heavens it was not one of the high tensile hulls like the Keystone Canyon or Atigun Pass. We found a few cracks on our return though. The Kenai has shelters and breakwaters at a couple of spots along the deck but still there was no way to go on deck. Not even on the stern. One less interesting trip the C/M and bosun had to go forward in weather to secure something or other in the stores forward. The weather was bad enough that the deck was secured but it was one of those "had to do" things. I was watching from the wheelhouse as they made their way forward from shelter to shelter between seas breaking over the bow. The water would hit the bow and rise vertically for maybe a hundred feet or so and crash back on deck just behind the IG vent mast. It looked like it was just heavy spray from the wheelhouse. They got just behind the vent mast when a big one hit the bow and came crashing down on them. They were knocked down like bowing pins and washed back to the pipeline where they managed to hang on. It was amazing how much weight of water was in the harmless looking cloud of spray. Rick |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
G I've got another one about being on the stern and taking a sea
backwards, over the stern ....same storm .... looked like a drowned rat in that one. We had the "American Trader" .... she was a crack, looking for an excuse to happen. Glad to see much of that tonnage is and has been replaced, as that run is a "ship killer". As for deck movement .... it's an awesome sight to stand in the wheelhouse of a tanker and watch the hull flex ... especially when the bow is doing that bounce and twist, seemingly independent of the rest of the ship. otn Rick wrote: otnmbrd wrote: I don't remember, was "Kenai" a flush deck or raised foc'sle ship? (If flush deck, going to the foc'sle in even relatively calm conditions could be dangerous to ones health.) Kenai has raised foc'sle. We were hove to trying to maintain steerage to keep the bow about 45 degrees or so to the seas. Making about 40 turns or so, was really grim listening to the engine, hoping that we wouldn't lose the plant. Even hove to we were rolling so badly it tore the Sat-A off the mount and snapped the HF whips. We had a "hydrostatic" load on board but still had a good deal of freeboard but there was no way to avoid taking seas when the roll was out of phase. It was the most incredible storm I have ever experienced in quite a few years at sea. No one even spoke for days, too exhausted, too stressed to do anything other than minimal movement to go on watch, no hot food for the whole week. What amazed me was the pressure of the water was enough to bend a perfect curve in the ladders on the kingposts ... the idea that the water could bend that steel when the only area it found was about 3 inches wide on the side straps. The sight of the deck movement was awe inspiring, thank heavens it was not one of the high tensile hulls like the Keystone Canyon or Atigun Pass. We found a few cracks on our return though. The Kenai has shelters and breakwaters at a couple of spots along the deck but still there was no way to go on deck. Not even on the stern. One less interesting trip the C/M and bosun had to go forward in weather to secure something or other in the stores forward. The weather was bad enough that the deck was secured but it was one of those "had to do" things. I was watching from the wheelhouse as they made their way forward from shelter to shelter between seas breaking over the bow. The water would hit the bow and rise vertically for maybe a hundred feet or so and crash back on deck just behind the IG vent mast. It looked like it was just heavy spray from the wheelhouse. They got just behind the vent mast when a big one hit the bow and came crashing down on them. They were knocked down like bowing pins and washed back to the pipeline where they managed to hang on. It was amazing how much weight of water was in the harmless looking cloud of spray. Rick |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
otnmbrd wrote:
G I've got another one about being on the stern and taking a sea backwards, over the stern .... That is what led to the practice of "securing the deck" and locking ourselves inside. Ernie K. Gann's son was lost on that run when they took a sea over the stern while trying to secure some barrels that were adrift. Sometimes we would take a gander out the door leading from the ER to the stern on the main deck when we were closed up ... the sight of those waves so far overhead is definitely a spiritual experience! Rick |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
http://www.naval.com/heavy-seas/3/
If you examine the first picture and the next to the last picture showing the huge wave on this page very closely you will figure out that the next to the last picture is a hoax. Look closely at the details of the boat in the first picture and closely at those identical details on the next to the last one. Look at the water detail around the rear of the boat, identical. The hoax picture appears on one of the other pages too. So what is the consensus on measuring a wave. Do you measure from the average water height to the top of the wave? Or from the bottom of the preceeding trough to the top of the wave? A 60 ft high ship can easily have a 30 foot wave break over it if the back of the ship is still on top of the prior wave and the nose is in the trough. "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:08:02 +1100, "K. Smith" wrote: Calif Bill wrote: http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss it:-) Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in open water are the stuff of over active imaginations Ummmmm....ok, I'll bite. Why? Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
Lawrence James wrote: http://www.naval.com/heavy-seas/3/ If you examine the first picture and the next to the last picture showing the huge wave on this page very closely you will figure out that the next to the last picture is a hoax. Look closely at the details of the boat in the first picture and closely at those identical details on the next to the last one. Look at the water detail around the rear of the boat, identical. The hoax picture appears on one of the other pages too. This one has been argued in numerous NG's. The general feeling is that you are correct. So what is the consensus on measuring a wave. Do you measure from the average water height to the top of the wave? Or from the bottom of the preceeding trough to the top of the wave? Bottom of trough to top. A 60 ft high ship can easily have a 30 foot wave break over it if the back of the ship is still on top of the prior wave and the nose is in the trough. A good number of ships, exceed the wave length, and don't forget, they are "driving" through, so, it's not all that uncommon between the pitching and driving force, to take a wave over, but basically, you are correct. otn |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
Taking a sea, backwards, over the stern is one of those rare
occurrences that need to be seen to be believed. We learned our lessons well that trip and instituted a number of heavy weather no-no's. otn Rick wrote: otnmbrd wrote: G I've got another one about being on the stern and taking a sea backwards, over the stern .... That is what led to the practice of "securing the deck" and locking ourselves inside. Ernie K. Gann's son was lost on that run when they took a sea over the stern while trying to secure some barrels that were adrift. Sometimes we would take a gander out the door leading from the ER to the stern on the main deck when we were closed up ... the sight of those waves so far overhead is definitely a spiritual experience! Rick |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:12:33 GMT, Rick
wrote: otnmbrd wrote: G I've got another one about being on the stern and taking a sea backwards, over the stern .... That is what led to the practice of "securing the deck" and locking ourselves inside. Ernie K. Gann's son was lost on that run when they took a sea over the stern while trying to secure some barrels that were adrift. Sometimes we would take a gander out the door leading from the ER to the stern on the main deck when we were closed up ... the sight of those waves so far overhead is definitely a spiritual experience! Ok, I have a sort-of "sea" story. Back when I was a fresh out of school graduate engineer, I was asked to help troubleshoot a radar installation for one of our customers. It was on the David P. Guidry which was a deep sea oil rig service boat - big boat. As it happened, the Guidry was at the Lykes Shipyard across the river from New Orleans for it's initial trials - that's where I joined up with it. So, I'm doing my thing, checking the waveguide, when the Guidry pulled out of her dock and started a series of manuvers on the Mississippi. As it happened, I had narrowed down the problem to a connection at the radar mast so I climbed the tower and just as I reacherd the top, the river pilot put the Guidry into a hard starboard turn. It was early June - the river was at flood and the Guidry went up on it's rail with a screaming engineer hanging off the tower looking down at 'Ole Muddy from a height of 9 feet when he had been looking at 'Ole Muddy from a height of 50 feet. After what felt like eight hours, but more more like 30 seconds, the Guidry came upright, but there were some highly ****ed off yard workers, owners and one REALLY ****ed off engineer. Alls well that ends well I guess, but I still remember that like it was yesterday. Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
"otnmbrd" wrote in message hlink.net... Lawrence James wrote: http://www.naval.com/heavy-seas/3/ If you examine the first picture and the next to the last picture showing the huge wave on this page very closely you will figure out that the next to the last picture is a hoax. Look closely at the details of the boat in the first picture and closely at those identical details on the next to the last one. Look at the water detail around the rear of the boat, identical. The hoax picture appears on one of the other pages too. This one has been argued in numerous NG's. The general feeling is that you are correct. So what is the consensus on measuring a wave. Do you measure from the average water height to the top of the wave? Or from the bottom of the preceeding trough to the top of the wave? Bottom of trough to top. A 60 ft high ship can easily have a 30 foot wave break over it if the back of the ship is still on top of the prior wave and the nose is in the trough. A good number of ships, exceed the wave length, and don't forget, they are "driving" through, so, it's not all that uncommon between the pitching and driving force, to take a wave over, but basically, you are correct. otn A major problem with large ships is the wave length related to the length of the ship. In the Bering sea, the wave heights can exceed 200' and the ship will try to be supported only by the bow and stern. Makes for a broke in two ship. There are some experiments with satellite radar to measure the seas, to avoid the ship getting in this predicament. Bill |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
DSK wrote:
K. Smith wrote... Before you knee jerk have a good look at the pics & you'll see that there is not likely to be a 30ft wave there in any of them Uh-huh. Please explain how a wave of less than 30 feet is going to roll clear over the bow of a large ship with approx 60 feet of freeboard. The boat displaced 10s of thousands of tons. it actually is traveling downhill on the back of the last wave & rather than the wave being bigger (higher) than the bow the ship's just ploughs through it. Even in almost flat water is a big boat is going straight into the swell it goes through it rather than over it. Well found properly handled small boats in open water have little the fear from any of that. Don White wrote: You may have no problem, your derelict tub run aground in some backwoods swamp on the Gold Coast. People who get out on the real ocean say different. Yes, it's pretty clear that "K. Smith" knows little about this. Maybe it's wishful thinking? Not wishful thinking but plenty of time on yachts in my younger days & always amazed at how it can blow hard for 3 days yet no huge waves, why?? because the higher a wave the longer the distance between crests, so even a large swell is no worry to smallcraft, the wind waves on top can be nasty but again well found & handled not dangerous. I often hear the crab-crusher guys talking about their ideal of an "All-weather go-anywhere" cruiser... and think about the North Atlantic storm that a USN destroyer went through, while I was on it... caused a couple million dollars of damage, ripping up 1 1/2" welded steel fittings and sending water flooding in the forced-draft blower intakes (among other things).... and I don't think any small boat is going to survive that other than in pieces. Not to mention that the people in it wold be pulped against the cabin sides. Yes they "drove" the boat into the waves with endless HP so what??? Those same apparently breaking waves would have just melted under a small craft, again look closely at the pics & wonder why ANY with an horizon in them suddenly show what's really happening. Sorry, but reality is what it is, not what you wish it was. I'm happy to explain how the stories get created by people who have no understanding of how on a wave the acceleration is in many directions up & at an angle at once, this means unless you have a clear view of a hard horizon you cannot in any circumstances estimate the height of the waves & in storms you will not see a hard horizon even from a ship, just spray, much less seeing an horizon from a small craft. As for Rick he's just a liar like Harry been shown here often enough; he's full of BS nothing more. K Fresh Breezes Doug King |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:08:02 +1100, "K. Smith" wrote: Calif Bill wrote: http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss it:-) Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in open water are the stuff of over active imaginations Ummmmm....ok, I'll bite. Why? Look at the pics, some show a wave seeming to be breaking "onto" the boat?? whereas in reality the boat is ploughing "through" & in part creating the wave, waves don't break like that in open water until they get disturbed by the proximity of the ship's displacement. In a couple you can see the boat is on the downward plunge so the "apparent" huge wave doesn't exist at all, in others the wave is getting on board, however as a rough (little pun the-)) rule of thumb waves start to stand up when they get close to objects, rocks, beaches reefs etc & the wave sees the ship as a blockage to the flow of the wave's energy (it's only the energy that flows in a wave not the water itself, the water itself mostly just scribes a small circular motion as the wave's energy passes), so just as with every other time that happens the first thing is the wave stands up higher, after a point (usually when the height is the same as the depth of the obstruction) it can no longer "stand" & breaks, once it has broken then the energy is released & the water does move. A good example is a couple of pics from a ways off that show ships & the horizon behind??? as you can see in one (the tan coloured hull) the ship is pitching well & truly, the bow is well up exposing almost all the forward draft (the boat is pitched stern well down in the trough, but the onboard crew wouldn't know that), the actual waves in the vicinity are not all that big??? If you quizzed the crew they'd all swear black & blue tall tales & true. It's not that they're liars as such, although our own pet Rick is:-), it's a trick of the eyes input vs the inner ear balance, the reason we get seasick, the reason untrained (instrument) pilots can't fly in cloud without unconsciously going into a big slow spin till the ground intervenes even though they would & do!! swear they're flying straight & level despite the screaming engine, the spinning instruments so strong is the belief in our own balance system & it's the reason nasa give their astronauts an artificial horizon reference to concentrate on. Your eyes are the primary inputs we get attuned to & in most circumstances what we see coincides with what our inner ear says, as regards motion. Once we loose a standard reference like an horizon then the inputs from the inner ear can create deception. I boat in heavy weather is a myriad of constantly changing accelerations, up, down, roll & pitch & when you have no reference you imagine what your eyes are saying is correct but not so. Again see the pics with a clear horizon in the backgrounds suddenly the waves look modest. At sea in heavy weather you're usually running (got not much choice on small yachts:-)) & invariably someone comes up from below & looks astern only to see the mythical huge wave standing up about to break upon the boat, what this person is actually looking at is down the back of the wave that just past under the boat, through the trough then up the steep face of the next approaching wave, however having no reference other than the confusion of their own balance he/she in all honesty "sees' that all as all up & the face of an approaching huge wave. A good "test" to try on a bumpy day is to "estimate" the swell height, from the lower deck where you can't see the horizon, then climb to whatever height it takes so you can still see the horizon in the troughs, your eye height above the waterline is the real wave height, you'll be astounded because rarely will you not see an horizon in the troughs just standing on your normal aft deck, what?? eye height 6-7 ft. Ships are so big it's even worse because you have so many apparently fixed references around you, the ship "seems" immovable & therefore it's easy to misconstrue the waves as all being "up" as if the ship is floating in a harbour. The big wave pics out over the bow with no horizon visible??? the boat is actually pointing well downhill the stern still being on the last crest, but with no horizon you wouldn't know that even if you were aware of the fact & looking for it, because as Mr Einstein said gravity is just acceleration & our balance system is designed to sense acceleration only. Ships in heavy weather rise up, down, roll & pitch the same as & if being powered even slightly "into" the weather even more so, than smallcraft, the rub is their mass/length dictates they go through many waves rather than over them. K Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:58:11 +1100, "K. Smith"
wrote: Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:08:02 +1100, "K. Smith" wrote: Calif Bill wrote: http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss it:-) Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in open water are the stuff of over active imaginations Ummmmm....ok, I'll bite. Why? Look at the pics, some show a wave seeming to be breaking "onto" the boat?? whereas in reality the boat is ploughing "through" & in part creating the wave, waves don't break like that in open water until they get disturbed by the proximity of the ship's displacement. ~ snippity snip ~ Interesting. Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:08:11 GMT, "Lawrence James"
wrote: http://www.naval.com/heavy-seas/3/ If you examine the first picture and the next to the last picture showing the huge wave on this page very closely you will figure out that the next to the last picture is a hoax. Look closely at the details of the boat in the first picture and closely at those identical details on the next to the last one. Look at the water detail around the rear of the boat, identical. The hoax picture appears on one of the other pages too. So what is the consensus on measuring a wave. Do you measure from the average water height to the top of the wave? Or from the bottom of the preceeding trough to the top of the wave? A 60 ft high ship can easily have a 30 foot wave break over it if the back of the ship is still on top of the prior wave and the nose is in the trough. Ok, good points, but I'm confused by this last exanmple. Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
G Picture a submarine, diving.
Judging wave heights, at sea is not easy. On a ship, judging heights up to @30-40' can be done with reasonable accuracy (the bigger the ship the better), but above that it becomes much more difficult. If you read various books, I believe you'll find that @60' is considered the maximum that waves can reach at sea. I feel the number is considerably higher, but no where near 200'. It's kinda like reporting roll angles with a "clinometer" .... "we were rolling 40 deg by the clinometer" .... in truth, their roll angle was closer to 20 deg. otn Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: A 60 ft high ship can easily have a 30 foot wave break over it if the back of the ship is still on top of the prior wave and the nose is in the trough. Ok, good points, but I'm confused by this last exanmple. Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
According to the Government they figure 200' swells possible in the Bering
sea area. Spent a few deficit dollars looking at them with satellite radar to figure out how to measure and keep ships out of their path. "otnmbrd" wrote in message hlink.net... G Picture a submarine, diving. Judging wave heights, at sea is not easy. On a ship, judging heights up to @30-40' can be done with reasonable accuracy (the bigger the ship the better), but above that it becomes much more difficult. If you read various books, I believe you'll find that @60' is considered the maximum that waves can reach at sea. I feel the number is considerably higher, but no where near 200'. It's kinda like reporting roll angles with a "clinometer" .... "we were rolling 40 deg by the clinometer" .... in truth, their roll angle was closer to 20 deg. otn Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: A 60 ft high ship can easily have a 30 foot wave break over it if the back of the ship is still on top of the prior wave and the nose is in the trough. Ok, good points, but I'm confused by this last exanmple. Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
Interesting. I would have to wonder where in the Bering Sea (near land
or open waters), but the satellite radar, will probably end up being the best source for actual numbers, from what I've heard about it. otn Calif Bill wrote: According to the Government they figure 200' swells possible in the Bering sea area. Spent a few deficit dollars looking at them with satellite radar to figure out how to measure and keep ships out of their path. |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:20:28 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote: G Picture a submarine, diving. Judging wave heights, at sea is not easy. On a ship, judging heights up to @30-40' can be done with reasonable accuracy (the bigger the ship the better), but above that it becomes much more difficult. If you read various books, I believe you'll find that @60' is considered the maximum that waves can reach at sea. I feel the number is considerably higher, but no where near 200'. I personally can't attest to wave heights, but there is evidence for 100' waves having existed. Having said that (and I've looked but can't find a source on the web, I'll have to look for another one) I read somewhere that the theoretical height limit for a "rouge" wave is 178' - has to do with the speed, weight of the water, etc. After a certain point, the water can't support it'self. It's kinda like reporting roll angles with a "clinometer" .... "we were rolling 40 deg by the clinometer" .... in truth, their roll angle was closer to 20 deg. Hey, makes for a good story and god knows, I love a good story. Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
Would have to be open waters, otherwise the wave mechanics would make for
bigger surfing waves than Mavericks. I think the problem is they are not the nasty waves as the pics show, but huge swells with long periods that can break a ship because of the lack of center support. Figure the super tankers are 1/2-3/4 mile long now. Wave with a 1 mile period would not break into white water, but would break a ship. bill "otnmbrd" wrote in message hlink.net... Interesting. I would have to wonder where in the Bering Sea (near land or open waters), but the satellite radar, will probably end up being the best source for actual numbers, from what I've heard about it. otn Calif Bill wrote: According to the Government they figure 200' swells possible in the Bering sea area. Spent a few deficit dollars looking at them with satellite radar to figure out how to measure and keep ships out of their path. |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
"K. Smith" wrote in message ...
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:08:02 +1100, "K. Smith" wrote: Calif Bill wrote: http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss it:-) Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in open water are the stuff of over active imaginations Ummmmm....ok, I'll bite. Why? Look at the pics, some show a wave seeming to be breaking "onto" the boat?? whereas in reality the boat is ploughing "through" & in part creating the wave, waves don't break like that in open water until they get disturbed by the proximity of the ship's displacement. what??? IF the boat IS plowing through the wave, and the ship's freeboard is 30', then the wave is higher than that. If it weren't the ship wouldn't plow through it. At sea in heavy weather you're usually running (got not much choice on small yachts:-)) & invariably someone comes up from below & looks astern only to see the mythical huge wave standing up about to break upon the boat, what this person is actually looking at is down the back of the wave that just past under the boat, through the trough then up the steep face of the next approaching wave, however having no reference other than the confusion of their own balance he/she in all honesty "sees' that all as all up & the face of an approaching huge wave. Jeez, it can't be any more simple, if you are standing on a ship's deck, and there is 30' between you and the water, and the wave breaks over you, then the wave has to be greater than 30', or it could not possibly break over you. |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
An older Bowditch claims a reliably reported 112 footer. This may have
been updated, now that we have the various satellites which can measure more accurately, as Calif B has stated. Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: I personally can't attest to wave heights, but there is evidence for 100' waves having existed. Having said that (and I've looked but can't find a source on the web, I'll have to look for another one) I read somewhere that the theoretical height limit for a "rouge" wave is 178' - has to do with the speed, weight of the water, etc. After a certain point, the water can't support it'self. |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
basskisser wrote:
"K. Smith" wrote in message ... Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:08:02 +1100, "K. Smith" wrote: Calif Bill wrote: http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss it:-) Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in open water are the stuff of over active imaginations Ummmmm....ok, I'll bite. Why? Look at the pics, some show a wave seeming to be breaking "onto" the boat?? whereas in reality the boat is ploughing "through" & in part creating the wave, waves don't break like that in open water until they get disturbed by the proximity of the ship's displacement. what??? IF the boat IS plowing through the wave, and the ship's freeboard is 30', then the wave is higher than that. If it weren't the ship wouldn't plow through it. No the boat has huge momentum via it's mass & speed, even at slow speeds, it's pitching up & down regardless. The bow is being pushed down via the ship's own motion. Once the boat has some pitch motion established even a small wave will "look" like it's breaking over the deck, but the boat is actually diving downwards, bow first. At sea in heavy weather you're usually running (got not much choice on small yachts:-)) & invariably someone comes up from below & looks astern only to see the mythical huge wave standing up about to break upon the boat, what this person is actually looking at is down the back of the wave that just past under the boat, through the trough then up the steep face of the next approaching wave, however having no reference other than the confusion of their own balance he/she in all honesty "sees' that all as all up & the face of an approaching huge wave. Jeez, it can't be any more simple, if you are standing on a ship's deck, and there is 30' between you and the water, and the wave breaks over you, then the wave has to be greater than 30', or it could not possibly break over you. On a very calm day even a modest patrol boat can throw green water over the deck if driven hard into a slight swell. The boat acts like a sea wall & as you might know waves bounce up over sea walls much higher than the surrounding wave height. The pictures are not a testament to big waves but to how easy it is to be deceived when our normal established references (what's up & what's down) are taken away. K |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
"K. Smith" wrote in message ... basskisser wrote: "K. Smith" wrote in message ... Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:08:02 +1100, "K. Smith" wrote: Calif Bill wrote: http://tv-antenna.com/heavy-seas/ Hmmm contrary view has to be put & as always only too happy to discuss it:-) Thanks for the pics though, they prove yet again that "huge" waves in open water are the stuff of over active imaginations Ummmmm....ok, I'll bite. Why? Look at the pics, some show a wave seeming to be breaking "onto" the boat?? whereas in reality the boat is ploughing "through" & in part creating the wave, waves don't break like that in open water until they get disturbed by the proximity of the ship's displacement. what??? IF the boat IS plowing through the wave, and the ship's freeboard is 30', then the wave is higher than that. If it weren't the ship wouldn't plow through it. No the boat has huge momentum via it's mass & speed, even at slow speeds, it's pitching up & down regardless. The bow is being pushed down via the ship's own motion. Once the boat has some pitch motion established even a small wave will "look" like it's breaking over the deck, but the boat is actually diving downwards, bow first. At sea in heavy weather you're usually running (got not much choice on small yachts:-)) & invariably someone comes up from below & looks astern only to see the mythical huge wave standing up about to break upon the boat, what this person is actually looking at is down the back of the wave that just past under the boat, through the trough then up the steep face of the next approaching wave, however having no reference other than the confusion of their own balance he/she in all honesty "sees' that all as all up & the face of an approaching huge wave. Jeez, it can't be any more simple, if you are standing on a ship's deck, and there is 30' between you and the water, and the wave breaks over you, then the wave has to be greater than 30', or it could not possibly break over you. On a very calm day even a modest patrol boat can throw green water over the deck if driven hard into a slight swell. The boat acts like a sea wall & as you might know waves bounce up over sea walls much higher than the surrounding wave height. The pictures are not a testament to big waves but to how easy it is to be deceived when our normal established references (what's up & what's down) are taken away. K Well, to quote my school roommate. There was green water rolling down the deck of the ship. The ship was The CV Bonne Hoome Richard. And it is a smaller aircraft carrier. The DD and DE's were completely underwater at times. This during a typhoon off the Philipines. Which says to me they were a lot bigger than 30' waves. Maybe you ought to go see a large surfing break. Our local big break Mavericks will produce greater than 60' at good swell times. Bill |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:12:03 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote: ~snippage~ Our local big break Mavericks will produce greater than 60' at good swell times. Dude!!!! Gnarly!!! Later, Tom S. Woodstock, CT ----------- "Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt..." Izaak Walton "The Compleat Angler", 1653 |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
"Calif Bill" wrote in message hlink.net... snip Well, to quote my school roommate. There was green water rolling down the deck of the ship. The ship was The CV Bonne Hoome Richard. And it is a smaller aircraft carrier. The DD and DE's were completely underwater at times. This during a typhoon off the Philipines. Which says to me they were a lot bigger than 30' waves. Maybe you ought to go see a large surfing break. Our local big break Mavericks will produce greater than 60' at good swell times. Bill I don't see those kind of waves here in Minnesota, but don't surfing style waves depend on a bottom that slopes just right? I don't hear of folks out surfing in the middle of the ocean.... I have been led to believe that even a tsunami is trivial in the open sea, but a heck of a problem when the very long wavelength gets to shore. But surely in this day and age there are satellite/airplane/bouy measurements of wave height in open ocean. Or would that be too hard to look up? OK, looked at the navy wave height forcasts. Looks like they believe in 24-30 foot waves. Of course the wavelength and hence the steepness of the wave isn't given. If it goes up 30 feet but the wavelength is 500 feet, then it wouldn't be a problem in a small boat. I presume that is how people can fish on the west coast in 10 foot waves. del cecchi del cecchi |
Boating related!!! a view of the ocean from the bridge.
"del cecchi" wrote in message ... "Calif Bill" wrote in message hlink.net... snip Well, to quote my school roommate. There was green water rolling down the deck of the ship. The ship was The CV Bonne Hoome Richard. And it is a smaller aircraft carrier. The DD and DE's were completely underwater at times. This during a typhoon off the Philipines. Which says to me they were a lot bigger than 30' waves. Maybe you ought to go see a large surfing break. Our local big break Mavericks will produce greater than 60' at good swell times. Bill I don't see those kind of waves here in Minnesota, but don't surfing style waves depend on a bottom that slopes just right? I don't hear of folks out surfing in the middle of the ocean.... I have been led to believe that even a tsunami is trivial in the open sea, but a heck of a problem when the very long wavelength gets to shore. But surely in this day and age there are satellite/airplane/bouy measurements of wave height in open ocean. Or would that be too hard to look up? OK, looked at the navy wave height forcasts. Looks like they believe in 24-30 foot waves. Of course the wavelength and hence the steepness of the wave isn't given. If it goes up 30 feet but the wavelength is 500 feet, then it wouldn't be a problem in a small boat. I presume that is how people can fish on the west coast in 10 foot waves. del cecchi del cecchi Mavericks is a reef break. The bottom comes up to 45' in a very short distance. In July when the swell is nil, is some great fishing over the reef. They do surf some offshore breaks. But they are pinnacles the come to the surface. We have swells and waves. We fish 8' swells in my 21' boat with no problem. Then in the afternoon the winds come up and we get wind waves. 2-3'. Then things get wet and nasty. waves at different angles than the swells, so you get beat up if having to run uphill into the slop. Normally we try to be in by noon, when the slop arrives, but we go North and then can come home with the wind, to ease the pain. For a Mavericks video and the Mavericks web sites. http://www.mavsurfer.com http://www.maverickssurf.com/ |
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