April 15, 2005
Iraqis Find Graves Thought to Hold Hussein's Victims
By ROBERT F. WORTH

AGHDAD, Iraq, April 14 - Investigators have discovered several mass graves
in southern Iraq that are believed to contain the bodies of people killed by
Saddam Hussein's government, including one estimated to hold 5,000 bodies,
Iraqi officials say.

The graves, discovered over the past three months, have not yet been dug up
because of the risks posed by the continuing insurgency and the lack of
qualified forensic workers, said Bakhtiar Amin, Iraq's interim human rights
minister. But initial excavations have substantiated the accounts of witnesses
to a number of massacres. If the estimated body counts prove correct, the new
graves would be among the largest in the grim tally of mass killings that have
gradually come to light since the fall of Mr. Hussein's government two years ago.

At least 290 grave sites containing the remains of some 300,000 people have
been found since the American invasion two years ago, Iraqi officials say.
Forensic evidence from some graves will feature prominently in the trials of
Mr. Hussein and the leaders of his government. The trials are to start this spring.

One of the graves, near Basra, in the south, appears to contain about 5,000
bodies of Iraqi soldiers who joined a failed uprising against Mr. Hussein's
government after the 1991 Persian Gulf war. Another, near Samawa, is believed
to contain the bodies of 2,000 members of the Kurdish clad led by Massoud
Barzani.

As many as 8,000 men and boys from the clan disappeared in 1983 after being
rounded up in northern Iraq by security forces at the command of Ali Hassan
al-Majid, widely known as Chemical Ali. It remains unclear, however, how the
victims ended up in the south.

Investigators have also discovered the remains of 58 Kuwaitis spread across
several sites, including what appears to be a family of two adults and five c
hildren who were crushed by a tank, Mr. Amin said. At least 605 Kuwaitis
disappeared at the time of the first gulf war, and before the latest graves
were discovered, fewer than 200 had been accounted for, he added.

A smaller site was discovered near Nasiriya earlier this week. Arabic satellite
television showed images of residents digging up remains there.
Mr. Amin declined to give the exact locations of the graves, saying it could
endanger witnesses to the massacres and anyone working at the sites.

One obstacle to exhuming bodies has been an absence of DNA labs and
forensic anthropologists in Iraq, Mr. Amin said.

In the aftermath of Mr. Hussein's fall, thousands of Iraqis overran mass
grave sites, digging for their relatives' remains with backhoes, shovels,
even their bare hands. A number of sites were looted, making identification
of victims difficult, said Hanny Megally, Middle East director for the I
nternational Center for Transitional Justice.

The American occupation authority, after some initial hesitation, began
classifying grave sites, and international teams began traveling to the sites
in 2003 to conduct assessments or exhumations. But toward the end of 2004,
rising violence led nearly all the teams to abandon their work.

Only one site has been fully examined, a grave of Kurdish victims in northern
Iraq, Mr. Megally said. That work was overseen by the Regime Crimes Liaison
Office, which is gathering evidence for the trials of Mr. Hussein and his deputies.

The interim Iraqi government, working with the United Nations, has drawn
up plans for a National Center for Missing and Disappeared Persons that
would have authority over all aspects of the process, from exhumations to
providing assistance to victims' families.

Interesting article. Thanks for posting and thanks for
marking it OT so those that want to filter for that can do it.

I have not heard anyone in the US, either in person or
in the media, claim that Saddam is a good man or that it's not
good that he's out of power. (Many have said that the world
may not be any safer after the war. Whether true or not
that argument is about the other consequences of the war, not
that Saddam was a good person to have in power.)

My own beliefs is this:
+ It's good Saddam is not in power any longer.

+ I'm unsure if the world, the mid-east region, or US citizens are any
safer.
I tend to lead toward not safer, but I'm not sure.

+ I'm not convinced the cost of the war (human, dollar, and international
image)
were worth the result. I tend to think that it hasn't and won't be
worth it,
but, now that we're there, I *really* hope I'll be wrong on this one.

+ I believe Bush and his administration bungled many specifics of this war.
The
list long but my summation is they had no clue how difficult it would be and
because they had to "sell" the war so hard to the American people their
minds were closed / unable to hear those that were trying to tell them this
was harder than it looked.

+ I believe Bush and his administration lied about the WMDs and the extent
of their threat. I know one way of looking at it is that Bush was either
just
wrong about the WMDs and/or that he got bad information from the US
intelligence community. Even if that is the extent of it, he is the leader,
he
has to take the responsibility for the mistakes. But I believe it's worse
than
that. I believe Bush and his administration willfully evaded knowledge and
facts that did not fit what they wanted to be true. That's the next best
thing
(actually worse I think) than lying. At least when one lies, they know the
truth themselves. When one evades reality it's worse.

So, Yes, it's good that Saddam is gone. I'll agree that Bush stopped that
monster and that, as an isolated consideration, that is a good thing.

Have a nice day.

More than 600 Iraqis killed in Fallujah in the past week, hospital chief
says
By ABDUL-QADER SAADI

Not every body in a mass grave was put there by Saddam Hussain. A quick
Google search turned this up. Who actually was responsible for this
mass grave?

Reminds me of the general in the Viet Nam war saying we had to destroy
the village to save it.
__________________________________________________ _____________

Iraqis carry a body to a grave Sunday in a soccer field that's being
used as a cemetery in Fallujah. (AP/Abdul Qader Saadi)

FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - More than 600 Iraqis have been killed in fighting
in Fallujah since U.S. marines began a siege against Sunni insurgents in
the city a week ago, the head of the city's hospital said Sunday.

Statistics of the dead were gathered from four main clinics around the
city and from the Fallujah General Hospital, said the hospital's
director, Rafie al-Issawi.

The dead totalled more than 600, most of them women, children and the
elderly, since the siege of Fallujah began early Monday, he said.

Bodies were being buried in two soccer fields, one of which was visited
by an Associated Press reporter. Row after row of graves filled the field.

The total number of dead in the city may be even higher than the
hospital's tally, al-Issawi said.

"We have reports of an unknown number of dead being buried in people's
homes without coming to the clinics," he said.


Asked about the report of 600 dead, Marine Lt.-Col. Brennan Byrne said,
"What I think you will find is 95 per cent of those were military age
males that were killed in the fighting."

"The marines are trained to be precise in their firepower . . . The
fact that there are 600 goes back to the fact that the marines are very
good at what they do," he said.

A day earlier, Byrne, commander of the 1st Battalion, 5th Marine
Regiment, said his batallion - one of three in or around the city - had
confirmed 40 Iraqi insurgents were killed and 19 others were likely dead
throughout the entire campaign.

Bodies were being buried at the soccer fields in Fallujah as residents
took advantage of a pause in fighting since Friday to tend to casualties.

At one of the fields, dubbed the Graveyard of the Martyrs by residents,
an AP reporter saw rows of freshly dug graves with wooden planks for
headstones.

Khalaf al-Jumaili, a volunteer helping bury bodies at the field, said
more than 300 people had been interred there.

Volunteers were seen carrying bodies in blankets and lowering them into
graves while bystanders shouted, "Martyr, martyr!"

It was not known how many were buried at the other soccer field.

Asked Sunday about the number of Iraqi casualties in Fallujah, U.S.
Brig.-Gen. Mark Kimmitt referred reporters to marine spokesmen. But he
insisted that marines are "tremendously precise" in their operations and
suggested insurgents were hiding among civilians, causing civilian deaths.

Nearly a third of Fallujah's 200,000 people fled the city during the
lull in fighting.

During the past week's fighting, marines and insurgents have battled in
residential neighbourhoods, sometimes around mosques, with the marines
calling in tanks and helicopter gunships for support. AC-130 warplanes
have also been used, and marine snipers have taken up positions on
buildings.

Marines say insurgents have used at least one mosque as a firebase to
attack American troops. Witnesses in the city have reported marine
snipers firing from a separate mosque's minaret on insurgents below.

"Jim" wrote in message
nk.net...
More than 600 Iraqis killed in Fallujah in the past week, hospital chief
says
By ABDUL-QADER SAADI

Not every body in a mass grave was put there by Saddam Hussain.

I tried to find a nice picture of an ostrich with its head in the sand, but
I struck out.

Damn it. ;-)

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, "JimH" wrote:
"Jim" wrote in message
ink.net...
More than 600 Iraqis killed in Fallujah in the past week, hospital chief
says
By ABDUL-QADER SAADI

Not every body in a mass grave was put there by Saddam Hussain.

I tried to find a nice picture of an ostrich with its head in the sand, but
I struck out.

Damn it. ;-)


Off topic to rec.boats. This isn't wrecked.boats. Post complaints or
comments to the appropriate newsgroup. Not here.

Remember, this is a boating newsgroup. OT posting is not welcome and is
unappreciated.

If you still feel compelled to post OT, seek professional help.


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On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, "Jennifer Flowers" wrote:

OT post snipped!

Off topic to rec.boats. This isn't wrecked.boats. Post complaints or
comments to the appropriate newsgroup. Not here.

Remember, this is a boating newsgroup. OT posting is not welcome and is
unappreciated.

If you still feel compelled to post OT, seek professional help.


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