Thanks for the idea.

I was thinking the same thing - I read the policy and "freezing" was one of
the first things they exempted.

I guess they already figured out that stupidity is expensive and didn't want
to participate in the repair expense.

Have a great week.


SBH
"John" wrote in message
om...
"Scott B. Hogle" wrote in message
...
As the subject line states, I'm interested in some suggestions for
replacing
the cracked 5.7 liter V-8 block in my 1997 Bayliner Capri.

I failed to take the precaution of removing the block drain plugs before
a
cold-snap hit the Seattle area - my fault = my repair bill.

I want to minimize the total expense, and I'm not opposed to using used
or
re-man parts.

Could I just buy a block and re-use the crankshaft, camshaft, pistions
and
bearings?

Would it be smarter just to buy a re-man shortblock and re-use the
existing
cylinder heads?

Do I need to get a "Mercruiser" shortblock, or would any GM 5.7
shortblock
work?

Final question, how much should I expect to pay to have a boat repair
facility "Remove and Reinstall" the engine.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

Have a great week.


SBH


__________________________________________________ __________________________
___
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -
http://www.uncensored-news.com
The Worlds Uncensored News Source



Have you looked at your insurance policy? You might be covered. It's worth
a look.



__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
The Worlds Uncensored News Source

Hey, don't be picking on Rod, I thought his post was very responsive.

I feel bad, I'm the idiot that was too lazy to remove the drain plugs and
poor Rod is catching grief for trying to help me out.

I've concluded that trying to buy a bare block and transfer the crankshaft
and pistons is probably being too cheap - probably better to just buy a
reman shortblock.

Thanks to all for your replies.

Have a great week.


SBH

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:52:51 -0800, "Rod McInnis"
wrote:


"Lawrence James" wrote in message
thlink.net...
Counter rotation engines have not been built for a while and certainly
would
not be in a late model bayliner single engine boat.


Define "a while".

Counter rotating engines are standard in just about every twin engine
inboard boat I have seen.

You must not have seen too many.

I have owned two different tournament ski boats that used counter
rotating
engines.

I agree that it would be unusual in an I/O configuration, but it only
takes
a minute to check and can save a tremendous amount of headache and
expense
if he happens to have one.

Rod





__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
The Worlds Uncensored News Source

"Wayne.B" wrote in message


I don't know the exact year that counter rotating engines were no
longer being produced but I believe it has been at least ten years or
so.

All newer boats achieve counter rotation in the transmission.



If your comments were specific towards I/O systems, then you are probably
correct. If you intended this to be a general statement for all inboards,
you are incorrect.

You can go to the Crusader web site, look at the specifications for one of
their engines (
http://www.crusaderengines.com/NewFi...salessheet.PDF
)
and see for yourself that they clearly state their engines are available in
either left hand or right hand rotation.

Considering how easy it is to make the lower unit of an I/O or outboard
reverse the rotation of the prop shaft with respect to the engine rotation I
agree that it would be unlikely that they would utilize a reverse rotation
engine to accomplish counter rotating props. The same does not hold true
for an inboard.

Rod

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:55:30 -0800, "Rod McInnis"



You don't give up easily. Please give some proof to your allegation.

You said: Quote:
"I don't know the exact year that counter rotating engines were no longer
being produced but I believe it has been at least ten years or so."

Unquote.

I took that statement to indicate you were claiming that Right Hand (a.k.a.
counter rotating) engines were no longer made. In my previous message I
provided the link to the website of Crusader, a leading manufacturer of
engines used in twin engine cruisers, that clearly shows that Crusader sells
engines in both Left Hand and Right Hand rotation.

Here is another one, from Pleasure Craft, who is a leading manufacturer of
marine engines used in ski boats:
http://www.pleasurecraft.com/NewFiles/PCMSpecs.PDF

As further proof, consider the specifications for the transmissions. My
favorite, and the one I am intimately familiar with, is the Velvet Drive by
Borg Warner. The one I have actually had apart in my garage was a 71
series. Here it their website:
http://www.simplicity-marine.com/velv71.htm

Note that this transmission is available in 6 different gear ratios: 1.0,
1.52, 1.91, 2.10, 2.57, and 2.92 to 1. Of these, only ONE (1.91) is
available with the output shaft rotating in an opposite direction of the
input shaft. Note that any of these transmissions can be configured for the
input shaft rotating in either direction (a simple matter of rotating the
oil pump on the input shaft 180 degrees).

I submit that if a leading manufacturer of transmissions only offers 1/6th
of their product line in counter rotating output then there would be a
significant number of dual engine boats that achieve counter rotating
propellers by utilizing counter rotating engines.

If links to the manufacturers websites where they are advertising new motors
for sale are not sufficient proof for you, maybe you can tell me what form
of proof you would consider to be acceptable.



I submit that very few boats with twin engines built in the last 15
years have engines that rotate differently.

I currently own a 36' Carver Mariner that has one LH and one RH engine

I used to own a Pro-Am tournament style ski boat that had a right hand
(counter rotating) engine.

There are plenty of boats out there that have Right Hand rotating engines in
them. If you are an expert on Bayliner Capri boats, and such know exactly
what models of engines and outdrives were used, then by all means assure
Scott (the original person who asked the question) that he doesn't need to
bother checking any details about his boat.

For those people who might be reading this thread and considering changing
out the short block, I stand by my original suggestion. It only takes a few
seconds to check to see if the engine turns "right hand" or "left hand". If
you don't run this check, and it turns out that you are one of those few who
have a right hand rotating engine, you are going to be really, really sad
when you get the engine all together and find out its all wrong.

Rod

You still have not told us the year of your ski boats or your Carver?

I'm ok with counter rotating engines being around still. My position on
this debate was that you will not find any new, 10 years or less, single
engine boats with them. Particularly i/o ones.

Counter rotation is accomplished with a 'backwards' cam that is driven by a
gear instead or a chain and a backwards starter. A regular short or long
block can be made counter rotating rather easily if you have those pieces.

"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:55:30 -0800, "Rod McInnis"



You don't give up easily. Please give some proof to your allegation.

You said: Quote:
"I don't know the exact year that counter rotating engines were no longer
being produced but I believe it has been at least ten years or so."

Unquote.

I took that statement to indicate you were claiming that Right Hand
(a.k.a.
counter rotating) engines were no longer made. In my previous message I
provided the link to the website of Crusader, a leading manufacturer of
engines used in twin engine cruisers, that clearly shows that Crusader
sells
engines in both Left Hand and Right Hand rotation.

Here is another one, from Pleasure Craft, who is a leading manufacturer of
marine engines used in ski boats:
http://www.pleasurecraft.com/NewFiles/PCMSpecs.PDF

As further proof, consider the specifications for the transmissions. My
favorite, and the one I am intimately familiar with, is the Velvet Drive
by
Borg Warner. The one I have actually had apart in my garage was a 71
series. Here it their website:
http://www.simplicity-marine.com/velv71.htm

Note that this transmission is available in 6 different gear ratios: 1.0,
1.52, 1.91, 2.10, 2.57, and 2.92 to 1. Of these, only ONE (1.91) is
available with the output shaft rotating in an opposite direction of the
input shaft. Note that any of these transmissions can be configured for
the
input shaft rotating in either direction (a simple matter of rotating the
oil pump on the input shaft 180 degrees).

I submit that if a leading manufacturer of transmissions only offers 1/6th
of their product line in counter rotating output then there would be a
significant number of dual engine boats that achieve counter rotating
propellers by utilizing counter rotating engines.

If links to the manufacturers websites where they are advertising new
motors
for sale are not sufficient proof for you, maybe you can tell me what form
of proof you would consider to be acceptable.



I submit that very few boats with twin engines built in the last 15
years have engines that rotate differently.

I currently own a 36' Carver Mariner that has one LH and one RH engine

I used to own a Pro-Am tournament style ski boat that had a right hand
(counter rotating) engine.

There are plenty of boats out there that have Right Hand rotating engines
in
them. If you are an expert on Bayliner Capri boats, and such know exactly
what models of engines and outdrives were used, then by all means assure
Scott (the original person who asked the question) that he doesn't need to
bother checking any details about his boat.

For those people who might be reading this thread and considering changing
out the short block, I stand by my original suggestion. It only takes a
few
seconds to check to see if the engine turns "right hand" or "left hand".
If
you don't run this check, and it turns out that you are one of those few
who
have a right hand rotating engine, you are going to be really, really sad
when you get the engine all together and find out its all wrong.

Rod

Having just done a complete rebuild / balance / blueprint on a friend's 5.7L
Crusaders, I can add one more item: The pistons have to be mounted on the
rods pointing to the back of the engine on the counter-rotating unit. This
is because the pistons are slightly asymetrical, with more material and a
stronger skirt on the side of the piston subject to side-thrust when the
cylinder fires. Your engine will not live very long if you do not do this.
Terry

That's interesting. I wonder what you are supposed to do with pistons that
have flycuts directly under the valves for extra valve clearance.

wrote in message
.com...
Having just done a complete rebuild / balance / blueprint on a friend's
5.7L
Crusaders, I can add one more item: The pistons have to be mounted on the
rods pointing to the back of the engine on the counter-rotating unit.
This
is because the pistons are slightly asymetrical, with more material and a
stronger skirt on the side of the piston subject to side-thrust when the
cylinder fires. Your engine will not live very long if you do not do
this.
Terry

"Lawrence James" wrote in message
ink.net...


I'm ok with counter rotating engines being around still. My position on
this debate was that you will not find any new, 10 years or less, single
engine boats with them.

Why do you say that?

With the gain in popularity of "wakeboarding" the majority of single engine
inboards have evolved into boats that are designed to create bigger wakes
rather than trying to minimize them. But there are still people who slalom
ski, and while they aren't as popular as they once were they still make
these boats. I would expect that whatever the reason they liked to use RH
engines on these boats 10 years ago still exists today.

Particularly i/o ones.

I agree with that it isn't likely that an I/O would use a counter rotating
engine.


Counter rotation is accomplished with a 'backwards' cam that is driven by
a
gear instead or a chain

No, the cam connects to the crankshaft the same way. The counter rotating
engine (Pleasurecraft) that I have taken apart were based on the Ford V8
block, which used a standard timing chain. The cam was simply ground
differently. The distributor rotated the opposite direction, so I would
assume that the oil pump (which is driven off the bottom of the distributer
drive) is also different.

I believe that the Crusaders use an opposite pitch on the worm gear between
the camshaft and distributer drive, and thus their distributers turn the
same direction for LH and RH engines.

and a backwards starter.

Yep, the starter has to rotate the opposite direction. My first
introduction to counter rotating engine was when my dad replaced the starter
on his counter rotating engine with a standard starter. It took us two days
to figure out why that damn engine wouldn't run!

I have heard (but never personally seen) of installations where a standard
starter was used but mounted on the opposite side, which would require a
different bell housing.

A regular short or long
block can be made counter rotating rather easily if you have those pieces.

I think the water circulating pump might be different as well

Rod

The guy does not have a reverse rotation engine in his single engine merc
i/o boat.

I'll repeat my question. What year were your ski boats?

"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Lawrence James" wrote in message
ink.net...


I'm ok with counter rotating engines being around still. My position on
this debate was that you will not find any new, 10 years or less, single
engine boats with them.

Why do you say that?

With the gain in popularity of "wakeboarding" the majority of single
engine
inboards have evolved into boats that are designed to create bigger wakes
rather than trying to minimize them. But there are still people who slalom
ski, and while they aren't as popular as they once were they still make
these boats. I would expect that whatever the reason they liked to use RH
engines on these boats 10 years ago still exists today.

Particularly i/o ones.

I agree with that it isn't likely that an I/O would use a counter rotating
engine.


Counter rotation is accomplished with a 'backwards' cam that is driven
by
a
gear instead or a chain

No, the cam connects to the crankshaft the same way. The counter rotating
engine (Pleasurecraft) that I have taken apart were based on the Ford V8
block, which used a standard timing chain. The cam was simply ground
differently. The distributor rotated the opposite direction, so I would
assume that the oil pump (which is driven off the bottom of the
distributer
drive) is also different.

I believe that the Crusaders use an opposite pitch on the worm gear
between
the camshaft and distributer drive, and thus their distributers turn the
same direction for LH and RH engines.

and a backwards starter.

Yep, the starter has to rotate the opposite direction. My first
introduction to counter rotating engine was when my dad replaced the
starter
on his counter rotating engine with a standard starter. It took us two
days
to figure out why that damn engine wouldn't run!

I have heard (but never personally seen) of installations where a standard
starter was used but mounted on the opposite side, which would require a
different bell housing.

A regular short or long
block can be made counter rotating rather easily if you have those
pieces.

I think the water circulating pump might be different as well

Rod