jps wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

The answer is painstakenly simple: Stop comitting crimes, and we'll stop
putting you in jail. But that overly simplistic answer, would never be
acceptable to those on the left who are always looking to deflect
responsibility away from the individuals, and onto the more clouded and
often vague entity of society.

Dave

The answer that I'm driving you to is painstakingly simple. Some people in
our society pay a higher cost to exist simply due to their skin color. You
skirted the issure repeatedly by claiming "don't do the crime and you won't
do the time." It's not that simple Dave.

If the problem of crime didn't exist, we wouldn't be having this
discussion. If we truly want to hold individuals accountable for thie
actions, then everyone must pay for what they do wrong.

Do you believe in cause and effect relationships?
Is the supposed bias against minorities, responsible for their lack of
respect for the law? Or, is their lack of respect for the law,
responsible for their negative bias? A sort of "chicken and egg"
question.....


Stopping crime isn't the only answer.

No, but it would pave a very large part of the path.


It's also making certain that
punishment isn't metted out unfairly in one community over another.

Do you have statistics for the number of middle class suburban white
youths who are getting away with crimes? You only assume that since the
number of minority youths in the criminal justice system, is
disproportional to their population, that they are unfairly targeted.
Without corroborating evidence of cops "looking the other way", with
respect to white kids, you're just ****ing in the wind.


Another thing you're failing to consider; economic status. What are your
statistics for poor inner city white kids, in trouble with the law,
compared to their percentage of the city population? And what about
middle class suburban black youths?

Once again, you're painting a picture with a racial brush, which should
instead be painted with a socio-economic one.


Here's some more info for you Dave. I'm sure you'll refute it and say
something dense that'll obfuscate the actual point I'm making. But, at this
point, I consider that par for the course.

The truth does that to people looking to promote a cause, without all
the facts


SEATTLE - A new University of Washington study says people are more inclined
to shoot blacks than whites.

And why do you suppose that is? Could it be that statistically you stand
a higher chance of being accosted in the city by a person of color than
a white person? I guess you can blame the media for pasting the pictures
and composite drawings of the latest rapists and robbers all over the
6:00 news, for subliminally planting that bias.

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

SEATTLE - A new University of Washington study says people are more
inclined
to shoot blacks than whites.

And why do you suppose that is? Could it be that statistically you stand
a higher chance of being accosted in the city by a person of color than
a white person? I guess you can blame the media for pasting the pictures
and composite drawings of the latest rapists and robbers all over the
6:00 news, for subliminally planting that bias.

Dave

That's your impression, isn't it Dave? Your question goes unanswered, but
like Rush, you draw a conclusion based on your assumption. Nice, empty
rationale.

I'm sure you'd be one of the folks who'd pull the trigger on the...

jps wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

SEATTLE - A new University of Washington study says people are more
inclined
to shoot blacks than whites.

And why do you suppose that is? Could it be that statistically you stand
a higher chance of being accosted in the city by a person of color than
a white person? I guess you can blame the media for pasting the pictures
and composite drawings of the latest rapists and robbers all over the
6:00 news, for subliminally planting that bias.



That's your impression, isn't it Dave? Your question goes unanswered, but
like Rush, you draw a conclusion based on your assumption. Nice, empty
rationale.

Much like the conclusion you made, which stated that since minorities
are convicted of a disproportionate amount of crime, then white people
must be given a "wink and nod" and let go. A nice empty rationale.

Your failure to consider the obvious, is whay you guys on the left will
always be out of sync.

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
jps wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

SEATTLE - A new University of Washington study says people are more
inclined
to shoot blacks than whites.

And why do you suppose that is? Could it be that statistically you
stand
a higher chance of being accosted in the city by a person of color
than
a white person? I guess you can blame the media for pasting the
pictures
and composite drawings of the latest rapists and robbers all over the
6:00 news, for subliminally planting that bias.



That's your impression, isn't it Dave? Your question goes unanswered,
but
like Rush, you draw a conclusion based on your assumption. Nice, empty
rationale.

Much like the conclusion you made, which stated that since minorities
are convicted of a disproportionate amount of crime, then white people
must be given a "wink and nod" and let go. A nice empty rationale.

Your failure to consider the obvious, is whay you guys on the left will
always be out of sync.

Dave

Whites aren't given a wink and a nod, just humane treatment and more chances
to get it right. Blacks aren't given the same opportunity.

Blacks and whites consume drugs in equal amount per capita.

Blacks comprise six times the number of people in prison than whites.

What possible conclusion could you draw other than unequal treatment?

What possible conclusion could you draw other than unequal treatment?



Disparate economies. Poor people commit more crimes than middle class and
wealthy people do.

Much of the "race" problem in the US is really an economic problem. Long term
history of unequal oppportunities (a few current exceptions prove the rule) in
employment, housing, and education.

Even after desegregation, it is still a tougher job to be a racial minority in
America than it is to be white.

On 10 Jul 2003 16:34:10 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

What possible conclusion could you draw other than unequal treatment?



Disparate economies. Poor people commit more crimes than middle class and
wealthy people do.

Much of the "race" problem in the US is really an economic problem. Long term
history of unequal oppportunities (a few current exceptions prove the rule) in
employment, housing, and education.

Even after desegregation, it is still a tougher job to be a racial minority in
America than it is to be white.

SBR

Courtesy of Lee Yeaton,
See the boats of rec.boats
www.TheBayGuide.com/rec.boats

Gould 0738 wrote:

What possible conclusion could you draw other than unequal treatment?



Disparate economies. Poor people commit more crimes than middle class and
wealthy people do.

Much of the "race" problem in the US is really an economic problem. Long term
history of unequal oppportunities (a few current exceptions prove the rule) in
employment, housing, and education.


Thank you Chuck! We are in agreement in yet another area. I've tried to
tell jps, that he's painting the situation with a racial brush, when he
should be thinking socio-economic.

Dave

Thank you Chuck! We are in agreement in yet another area. I've tried to
tell jps, that he's painting the situation with a racial brush, when he
should be thinking socio-economic.

Dave

Poor, non-white people will always be non-white. That's not a good, bad, or
indifferent thing, but it is a fact. No big deal, it would be boring if we all
looked alike and shared precisely the same family/cultural priorities.

Poor, non-white people don't need to remain *poor*. Where the injustice often
arises is when other elements of society attempt to dictate that they *must*
remain poor, and only because they are non-white.

Early childhood education, ( a la Head Start & similar programs), is a critical
element in breaking the multi-generational
cycle of impoverished thinking and behavior. This is an area where the RW just
doesn't get it: stripping the funding from programs that will influence kids to
take a productive course in life isn't saving the taxpayer's anything. Instead
of spending $6000 to send a kid to Head Start, we wind up spending $60,000 (a
year!) to incarcerate him or her as a failed adult. In some areas of the
country, up to
about a third of the adult men from poor neighborhoods are in prison at any one
time.

And it isn't strictly a racial thing, either.
The majority of white people serving time for violent crimes likely hail from
economic conditions similar to those that their minority cell mates do.

Even if the humanitarian argument falls on deaf ears, the anti-taxation crowd
ought to
try to realize that a $1000 in prevention is worth $100,000 in cure.

"jps" wrote in message
...

Blacks and whites consume drugs in equal amount per capita.

Blacks comprise six times the number of people in prison than whites.

What possible conclusion could you draw other than unequal treatment?




jps, now that you have had time to think about what you wrote here, do you
realize how illogical what you wrote is? It makes as much sense as saying.

"Fish and turtles swim in water.

Bear's and birds **** in the woods. , but whenever people talk about
animals defecating in the woods they always talk about the bears.

The only possible conclusion that anyone can draw from this is if given a
choice, most people would prefer to be **** upon by a bear than a bird.

While I have no idea if your facts are correct, it really does not matter,
you take two completely unrelated facts, and then try to draw some
conclusion from them.

I agree that the legal representation that any poor person receives is
considerably below what someone receives who can afford an excellent
attorney. I would also agree that the quality of legal rep. effects the
outcome and the sentence given to the client. The facts you present did not
do anything to prove your point, or to convince anyone that you are doing
anything but spewing forth your preconceived notions.

The reasons your analysis is faulty, include but is not limited to: Are the
people in prison, sent to prison for using drugs or for selling drugs? Are
black and whites equally represent in trafficking of drugs? Is there a
difference in sentences from people selling drugs based upon race in which
both clients used the same attorney? If a black using a qualified attorney,
is his sentence similar to a white person who commits the same crime who
uses a similarly qualified attorney? What percent of people are in prison
for drugs and drug related charges and what percent are in for other crimes?

Statements like the one you made is the reason you will always be viewed as
an idiot by both Conservatives and Liberals. You and Rush Limbaugh are on
equal footing as far as spouting off BS and then making illogical
conclusions, without any facts or info to back up your claims.