Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 12:34:51 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:


Agent has just released Version 2.0 Build 640 to the public. There
are significant improvements in this version, but it does not, yet,
incorporate many of the most desired (and promised) features. One of
the most significant features is enhanced message sorting and
threading. Personally, I find these changes quite useful in the
ongoing battle against -OT- in rec.boats.

General Information:
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/index.php

Information specific to 2.0...2.x:
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/roadmap.php

Thanks Gene. I have version 1.91 and now may upgrade to 1.93. Don't
know if I want to spend the bucks for 2.0, 'cause I've been very
pleased with 1.91.

Haven't had any trouble filtering those whom I want to filter. Usually
just the author's name works quite well.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

What's the advantage to an aftermarket newsreader? A perfectly good one
came free with my Windows.

Is there really an advantage, or is it just rage against the machine?

-W

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...

Agent has just released Version 2.0 Build 640 to the public. There
are significant improvements in this version, but it does not, yet,
incorporate many of the most desired (and promised) features. One of
the most significant features is enhanced message sorting and
threading. Personally, I find these changes quite useful in the
ongoing battle against -OT- in rec.boats.

General Information:
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/index.php

Information specific to 2.0...2.x:
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/roadmap.php

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/
Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where
Southport,NC is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time Pictures
at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 18:21:01 GMT, "Clams Canino"
wrote:

What's the advantage to an aftermarket newsreader? A perfectly good one
came free with my Windows.

Is there really an advantage, or is it just rage against the machine?

I've been using Agent since before v. 1.93--about ten years.

It's the best $29 I've spent.

You can go to www.forteinc.com and download a fully functional version of the
brand new (YAY!) Agent 2.0. You'll be able to test it for 30 days for free.

The features I have found most useful in Agent (just bought 2.0 but haven't yet
evaluated it) are these:

* Very powerful filtering capabilities, using RegExp
* Extreme ease of use
* Speed
* Decodes binary attachments seamlessly
* Has a functional email client (although I still use Eudora for email)
* Easily configured separate folders

Joe Parsons


-W

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .

Agent has just released Version 2.0 Build 640 to the public. There
are significant improvements in this version, but it does not, yet,
incorporate many of the most desired (and promised) features. One of
the most significant features is enhanced message sorting and
threading. Personally, I find these changes quite useful in the
ongoing battle against -OT- in rec.boats.

General Information:
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/index.php

Information specific to 2.0...2.x:
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/roadmap.php

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/
Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where
Southport,NC is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time Pictures
at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 12:34:51 -0500, Gene Kearns wrote:


Agent has just released Version 2.0 Build 640 to the public.

Woo hoo!

Thanks for the heads up!

Joe Parsons

There
are significant improvements in this version, but it does not, yet,
incorporate many of the most desired (and promised) features. One of
the most significant features is enhanced message sorting and
threading. Personally, I find these changes quite useful in the
ongoing battle against -OT- in rec.boats.

General Information:
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/index.php

Information specific to 2.0...2.x:
http://www.forteinc.com/agent/roadmap.php

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 18:21:01 GMT, "Clams Canino"
wrote:

What's the advantage to an aftermarket newsreader? A perfectly good one
came free with my Windows.

Is there really an advantage, or is it just rage against the machine?

Are you talking about OE (Outlook Express)? The answer is yes - there
are some distinct advantages.

Advanced filtering and weighting, multiserver support (which OE does
support, but not well), search functions, OE sucks at handling and
decoding multi-part binaries (I spend time on the marine and landscape
photography lists for example or mp3s that I've been collecting for
years) and yEnc which is a superior compression algorithym, multiple
ids (for different groups), IP masking (which OE doesn't do),
automatic crosspost checks, unlimited configurability, customize the
toolbars - well, just a ton of stuff that OE can't, won't and will not
do. OE also tracks your Usenet usage which, depending on your
proclivities, you might not want tracked. ;)

Agent is probably the oldest of the bunch and the most stable, but
Agent hasn't really followed up on some promises they made after
releasing 1.91. I use Agent on the home computers because everyone
here is used to it.

Xnews is another constantly evolving free newsreader, but you really
have to be a geek to use it properly or have a geek close by to help
translate some of the techno-speak. Once you get a handle on the
terminology used, Xnews rocks - it's really unbelievable what you can
do with it. I don't use Xnews because I'm not up for learning what is
essentially a new "language" (if you will), but two of the kids use it
and really make it sing.

Opera is a browser and email/news reader that is very nice if you want
to experiment with a non-corporate (aol/microsoft) software that has a
lot of followers out there in Windoze land. Opera is relatively
stable and has some great features that I like a lot. I have Opera on
the computer in the shop in fact.

Hope that helps.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------

"To the fisherman born there is nothing
so provoking of curiosity as a fishing rod
in a case."

Roland Pertwee, "The River God" (1928)

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 19:34:38 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 19:19:45 GMT, Joe Parsons
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 12:34:51 -0500, Gene Kearns wrote:


Agent has just released Version 2.0 Build 640 to the public.

Woo hoo!

Thanks for the heads up!


Stay tuned guys and I'll let you in on as much as I legally can... as
soon as I can...... but 2.1 should be the start of the great things to
come..... Mark promises it in Q2.... we'll see....

Great! And I hear that one good key will work in any downloaded
version! Yippee......

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

Gene Kearns wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:04:16 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


Well, it is a little less of a mess than it used to be, but I have yet
to find any easy way to add more than one news server.

You can't. That is promised out in 2.1.... or Q2....


Or more than one email address or server, although I haven't plumbed
those depths much. But it is a step up for FORTE.

--
Email sent to is never read.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 19:57:39 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 19:43:12 -0500, John H
wrote:

Great! And I hear that one good key will work in any downloaded
version! Yippee......


Yep, they don't ask for more money until they do something
significant.... in terms of enhancements. Bug fixes are free and
beta testers aren't regular purchasers, unlike Micro$oft.

I may try downloading and installing 1.93, just to see what
improvements exist, but I'll keep the 1.91.exe around just in case I
don't like it.

I used to use LView (a picture editor) and made the mistake of
downloading a newer version. It stunk. Luckily I had put the
downloaded 'exe' on a floppy. Now I use Irfanview (also free), a great
picture editor/viewer.

I start with Free Agent when there wasn't a version to buy. I paid the
bucks for the 1.91, and love it. I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

Thanks for the info about the updates. I appreciate it and will give
1.93 a shot.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 19:19:04 GMT, Joe Parsons
wrote:

I've been using Agent since before v. 1.93--about ten years.

It's the best $29 I've spent.

================================================== =

I'll second that. I've tried most of the alternatives at one time or
another and never liked any of them as well.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

Does Agent permit multiple email accounts? I'd download and test it, but
that's always risky business in the Windows environment. "DLL Hell", as it's
known to veterans.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"John H" wrote in message
...

I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

A mess in what way???

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 06:51:59 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:
Does Agent permit multiple email accounts? I'd download and test it, but
that's always risky business in the Windows environment. "DLL Hell", as it's
known to veterans.
==============================================

Not that I'm aware of.

It's a very clean install with no reboot required or funny business in
the registry.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...

I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

A mess in what way???


Indeed. Probably too complex for John, even though it is the simplest of
newsreaders to use. I don't like it because it is too "Microsofty," but
it isn't messy, and it does allow for multiple accounts, which Agent
doesn't.

--
Email sent to is never read.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:19:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...

I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

A mess in what way???


Indeed. Probably too complex for John, even though it is the simplest of
newsreaders to use. I don't like it because it is too "Microsofty," but
it isn't messy, and it does allow for multiple accounts, which Agent
doesn't.

Not true - Agent does allow for multiple accounts - you just have to
open a seperate data file. It's actually as easy as OE to do.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------

"To the fisherman born there is nothing
so provoking of curiosity as a fishing rod
in a case."

Roland Pertwee, "The River God" (1928)

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:19:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...

I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

A mess in what way???


Indeed. Probably too complex for John, even though it is the simplest of
newsreaders to use. I don't like it because it is too "Microsofty," but
it isn't messy, and it does allow for multiple accounts, which Agent
doesn't.

Not true - Agent does allow for multiple accounts - you just have to
open a seperate data file. It's actually as easy as OE to do.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------


It is possible, but it isn't easy, and it requires setting up scripts,
and invoking them externally, and it is a pain in the butt. It is not as
easy to do as it is with newsreaders programmed to accommodate multiple
accounts.





--
Email sent to is never read.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:35:05 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:19:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...

I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

A mess in what way???


Indeed. Probably too complex for John, even though it is the simplest of
newsreaders to use. I don't like it because it is too "Microsofty," but
it isn't messy, and it does allow for multiple accounts, which Agent
doesn't.

Not true - Agent does allow for multiple accounts - you just have to
open a seperate data file. It's actually as easy as OE to do.

It is possible, but it isn't easy, and it requires setting up scripts,
and invoking them externally, and it is a pain in the butt. It is not as
easy to do as it is with newsreaders programmed to accommodate multiple
accounts.

No scripts - you just copy the data file to a different folder and
change the access data.

I found that my main ISP, Earthlink, doesn't keep binaries long, so I
use Giganews for my photography and fishing pictures, Easynews has
decent access to different newsgroups like this, so that's a different
folder. Earthlink is a different folder, but I don't use that one
much at all - it's a slow server and the throughput is extremely
limited.

Simple and easy.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------

"To the fisherman born there is nothing
so provoking of curiosity as a fishing rod
in a case."

Roland Pertwee, "The River God" (1928)

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 06:51:59 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:
Does Agent permit multiple email accounts? I'd download and test it, but
that's always risky business in the Windows environment. "DLL Hell", as
it's
known to veterans.
==============================================

Not that I'm aware of.

It's a very clean install with no reboot required or funny business in
the registry.


I installed it a couple of years back on another machine and was unable to
find anything in the help system about multiple mail accounts. Nothing on
the web site, and in a couple of newsgroups, other users had no clue. I
guess the answer is "no".

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:19:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...

I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

A mess in what way???


Indeed. Probably too complex for John, even though it is the simplest of
newsreaders to use. I don't like it because it is too "Microsofty," but
it isn't messy, and it does allow for multiple accounts, which Agent
doesn't.

Not true - Agent does allow for multiple accounts - you just have to
open a seperate data file. It's actually as easy as OE to do.

What exactly do you mean by "open a separate data file"? My goal is to have
multiple accounts with messages from all of them downloading into the same
inbox, while I don't have to touch the keyboard. Possible or not?

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:19:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...

I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

A mess in what way???


Indeed. Probably too complex for John, even though it is the simplest of
newsreaders to use. I don't like it because it is too "Microsofty," but
it isn't messy, and it does allow for multiple accounts, which Agent
doesn't.

Not true - Agent does allow for multiple accounts - you just have to
open a seperate data file. It's actually as easy as OE to do.

What exactly do you mean by "open a separate data file"? My goal is to have
multiple accounts with messages from all of them downloading into the same
inbox, while I don't have to touch the keyboard. Possible or not?



Well, Outlook does that...but that's not a feature of outlook I like. I
prefer the messages to dump into their own folders, but without my
intervention.

--
Email sent to is never read.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


What exactly do you mean by "open a separate data file"? My goal is to
have
multiple accounts with messages from all of them downloading into the
same
inbox, while I don't have to touch the keyboard. Possible or not?



Well, Outlook does that...but that's not a feature of outlook I like. I
prefer the messages to dump into their own folders, but without my
intervention.

That's a piece of cake with Outlook or OE, Harry. You make a few simple
message rules which tell the program to move messages arriving for X account
into such-and-such a folder.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


What exactly do you mean by "open a separate data file"? My goal is to
have
multiple accounts with messages from all of them downloading into the
same
inbox, while I don't have to touch the keyboard. Possible or not?



Well, Outlook does that...but that's not a feature of outlook I like. I
prefer the messages to dump into their own folders, but without my
intervention.

That's a piece of cake with Outlook or OE, Harry. You make a few simple
message rules which tell the program to move messages arriving for X account
into such-and-such a folder.


Unfortunately, I have a more than passing familiarity with Outlook,
since most of my clients use it. I prefer Mozilla to Outlook Express
because Mozilla is featureful and allows a high degree of customization.


--
Email sent to is never read.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 14:00:39 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:19:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...

I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

A mess in what way???


Indeed. Probably too complex for John, even though it is the simplest of
newsreaders to use. I don't like it because it is too "Microsofty," but
it isn't messy, and it does allow for multiple accounts, which Agent
doesn't.

Not true - Agent does allow for multiple accounts - you just have to
open a seperate data file. It's actually as easy as OE to do.

What exactly do you mean by "open a separate data file"? My goal is to have
multiple accounts with messages from all of them downloading into the same
inbox, while I don't have to touch the keyboard. Possible or not?

For email, I'm not sure to be honest. I was discussing the data file
for different news servers.

I'll get back to you on that.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------

"To the fisherman born there is nothing
so provoking of curiosity as a fishing rod
in a case."

Roland Pertwee, "The River God" (1928)

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


What exactly do you mean by "open a separate data file"? My goal is
to
have
multiple accounts with messages from all of them downloading into the
same
inbox, while I don't have to touch the keyboard. Possible or not?



Well, Outlook does that...but that's not a feature of outlook I like. I
prefer the messages to dump into their own folders, but without my
intervention.

That's a piece of cake with Outlook or OE, Harry. You make a few simple
message rules which tell the program to move messages arriving for X
account
into such-and-such a folder.


Unfortunately, I have a more than passing familiarity with Outlook,
since most of my clients use it. I prefer Mozilla to Outlook Express
because Mozilla is featureful and allows a high degree of customization.

I use the Mozilla browser, but only under duress. :-) The tabbed browsing
feature is terrific, as is the ability to annotate bookmarks. But, the
bookmark search feature is an atrocity. Open sauce programming at its worst.
And, "sauce" is not a typo. Open the sauce, get into the groove (i.e.:
drunk), write some bad code, and hide behind a nifty nickname so nobody
knows who you really are.

Really, we don't have any GREAT choices. Some marginally acceptable ones,
but nothing great.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 10:38:15 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 12:32:52 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:


Not true - Agent does allow for multiple accounts - you just have to
open a seperate data file. It's actually as easy as OE to do.


Absolute PITA. True multiple accounts are promised in 2.1, due in Q2.

LOL!! It's not that bad.

They've been promising multiple account management since 1.52 I think.
:)

Have you tried Xnews at all? I'm not a geek, so I don't really get
into tweaking news readers, but my two youngest love it and can make
it do some fancy tricks.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------

"To the fisherman born there is nothing
so provoking of curiosity as a fishing rod
in a case."

Roland Pertwee, "The River God" (1928)

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 10:39:41 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 14:00:39 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 07:19:01 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
...

I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

A mess in what way???


Indeed. Probably too complex for John, even though it is the simplest of
newsreaders to use. I don't like it because it is too "Microsofty," but
it isn't messy, and it does allow for multiple accounts, which Agent
doesn't.

Not true - Agent does allow for multiple accounts - you just have to
open a seperate data file. It's actually as easy as OE to do.

What exactly do you mean by "open a separate data file"? My goal is to have
multiple accounts with messages from all of them downloading into the same
inbox, while I don't have to touch the keyboard. Possible or not?


Boils down to multiple installations and has been a work-around for
years. There is relief on the way....

I'll believe it when I see it. That was the #1 complaint about Agent
almost from the git-go and they have never complied with the request.

I don't know why, but that's the way of it.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------

"To the fisherman born there is nothing
so provoking of curiosity as a fishing rod
in a case."

Roland Pertwee, "The River God" (1928)

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 18:21:01 GMT, "Clams Canino"
wrote:

What's the advantage to an aftermarket newsreader? A perfectly good one
came free with my Windows.



Here are three reasons (concerning OE) borrowed from a mailing list:

I'm not a shill for MS, but:

1) It's probably the main virus vector on the net;

The only way I can see that it's a virus vector is that when installed, it's
set to automatically harvest the email address of everyone you reply to.
Easy to shut off, but most people don't read the instructions. This isn't a
design problem, although MS could change this default easily if their people
got their heads outta their asses.

2) It's demonstrably broken in several ways, violating several RFCs
and a lot of "custom and practice" (practically enforcing top-posting
is the biggest problem, but it also doesn't do MIME properly and
encourages unsafe behaviour w.r.t. attachments)

Top posting? It doesn't offer the option of top or bottom posting like
Netscape/Mozilla, but it's easy enough to post correctly if you take the
time to touch that obscure down arrow key. :-) As far as attachments, the
latest versions of OE shut off attachment viewing by default. You can't
touch them unless you intentionally go into options and flip a switch. This
issue probably generates more questions than any other in the MS newsgroups.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...

Have you tried Xnews at all? I'm not a geek, so I don't really get
into tweaking news readers, but my two youngest love it and can make
it do some fancy tricks.

We shouldn't have to fiddle that much to make software work correctly.
Proper requirements gathering and design are supposed to take care of these
things, but that process is sadly lacking from most open source projects, as
well as quite a few shareware/commercial products. Say what you will about
Microsoft, but in terms of what they do BEFORE the coding begins, their
process is almost perfect.

I don't know if you enjoy computer books or not, but the bible of user
interface design is quite fascinating. It's called "About Face 2.0: The
Essentials of Interaction Design", by Alan Cooper. When you're done with it,
you'll know exactly which software authors belong in hell for all eternity.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 06:55:10 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
.. .

I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

A mess in what way???


He was trying to download a yEnc encoded binary. I don't know if he
ever figured out how to do it. We were on the telephone at the time. I
finally sent him Free Agent, which he upgraded to Agent.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:04:53 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .

Have you tried Xnews at all? I'm not a geek, so I don't really get
into tweaking news readers, but my two youngest love it and can make
it do some fancy tricks.

We shouldn't have to fiddle that much to make software work correctly.
Proper requirements gathering and design are supposed to take care of these
things, but that process is sadly lacking from most open source projects, as
well as quite a few shareware/commercial products. Say what you will about
Microsoft, but in terms of what they do BEFORE the coding begins, their
process is almost perfect.

I sort of agree with you on that. However, what techheads might think
of as being a good idea, isn't always a good idea. What techheads
might think of as perfectly comprehensible and/or intuitive is
gibberish to a user. And that is the real problem with open source
because you have the same technoids messing around with what should be
a simple concept and all have differing ideas about how stuff should
work.

It's also a somewhat concept becuase it is "open source" only to those
who understand the coding structure - thus the end results will be the
same.

I don't know if you enjoy computer books or not, but the bible of user
interface design is quite fascinating. It's called "About Face 2.0: The
Essentials of Interaction Design", by Alan Cooper. When you're done with it,
you'll know exactly which software authors belong in hell for all eternity.

I'll look it up - thanks for the tip.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------

"To the fisherman born there is nothing
so provoking of curiosity as a fishing rod
in a case."

Roland Pertwee, "The River God" (1928)

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"John H" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 06:55:10 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John H" wrote in message
.. .

I've watched a friend try to use his
Outlook as a news reader. What a mess.

A mess in what way???


He was trying to download a yEnc encoded binary. I don't know if he
ever figured out how to do it. We were on the telephone at the time. I
finally sent him Free Agent, which he upgraded to Agent.

John H

Here's another solution:
http://www.brawnylads.com/yproxy

Fast, stable, seamless for the user, tiny memory footprint. Works like a
charm.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:04:53 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in
message
.. .

Have you tried Xnews at all? I'm not a geek, so I don't really get
into tweaking news readers, but my two youngest love it and can make
it do some fancy tricks.

We shouldn't have to fiddle that much to make software work correctly.
Proper requirements gathering and design are supposed to take care of
these
things, but that process is sadly lacking from most open source projects,
as
well as quite a few shareware/commercial products. Say what you will
about
Microsoft, but in terms of what they do BEFORE the coding begins, their
process is almost perfect.

I sort of agree with you on that. However, what techheads might think
of as being a good idea, isn't always a good idea. What techheads
might think of as perfectly comprehensible and/or intuitive is
gibberish to a user. And that is the real problem with open source
because you have the same technoids messing around with what should be
a simple concept and all have differing ideas about how stuff should
work.

In a correctly ordered software project, the processes I described are not
done by tech heads. As you said, this usually spells disaster. Requirements
gathering is a dialog between designers and the intended user population,
with programmers left OUT of the loop for the time being. Ideally, designers
are people who know what the programmers are capable of, but that's the
extent of their involvement with programming.

Mozilla is a perfect example of a train wreck. There was NO requirements
gathering whatsoever. A year ago, open source participants were telling
newsgroup visitors that Mozilla was not intended to be a finished product
for general users. Rather, it was supposed to be a demonstration of the
underlying coding technology, which they've named "Gecko". Who it was a demo
for, nobody can really say. Perhaps they wanted to sell it as embedded
technology, for cell phones and such. When users complained about all the
horrors built into the product, the usual response was "It's open source. If
you don't like something, you're welcome to contribute some code". The
ultimate tech head private club. What if you happen to be an English
teacher, not a programmer?

Now, however, they've backtracked and they're listening to user
requirements. Unfortunately, the monster is already walking around, burping
and farting. Hey Harry...try this with Mozilla: Hit CTRL-B to open your
bookmark file. Hit CTRL-F, and enter something that you know it'll find
within your collection. When it finds the bookmark(s), what's wrong with the
way the result is presented?

It's also a somewhat concept becuase it is "open source" only to those
who understand the coding structure - thus the end results will be the
same.

Exactly, but worse: Many of the contributors to BIG open source projects are
children. Literally. Teenagers who think it's cool to see their defective
code included in something famous. But, they never got the message about
gathering requirements first.


I don't know if you enjoy computer books or not, but the bible of user
interface design is quite fascinating. It's called "About Face 2.0: The
Essentials of Interaction Design", by Alan Cooper. When you're done with
it,
you'll know exactly which software authors belong in hell for all
eternity.

I'll look it up - thanks for the tip.

The above book is a good read for users, or people involved in software
construction. Cooper was responsible for the design of Visual Basic, but he
still takes plenty of pot shots at his old employer. It makes the book fun.
Here's another that would probably put most users right to sleep, but it's a
classic:
"Exploring Requirements - Quality Before Design", by Donald C. Gause &
Gerald M. Weinberg. It's a $44.00 textbook, but many libraries have it,
usually covered with dust. It's a real eye-opener because it makes it quite
clear which software firms missed the boat entirely.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 01:41:17 +0000, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:

I sort of agree with you on that. However, what techheads might think
of as being a good idea, isn't always a good idea. What techheads
might think of as perfectly comprehensible and/or intuitive is
gibberish to a user. And that is the real problem with open source
because you have the same technoids messing around with what should be
a simple concept and all have differing ideas about how stuff should
work.

Yeah, but . . . Most open source software works quite well out of the box,
being configurable is a major plus. Open source software may not be for
everyone, but I love it. Anytime I am forced to use a Microsoft product,
I find it very limiting and frustrating. With open source I can set up my
system as I want to, not as Microsoft thinks I should.

It's also a somewhat concept becuase it is "open source" only to those
who understand the coding structure - thus the end results will be the
same.

As the code is readily available, you can go that deeply, but it is by no
means necessary. Open source has come a long way and allows many choices.
It may not be your choice, but it is the choice of a growing number of
users.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:04:53 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


We shouldn't have to fiddle that much to make software work correctly.

I would agree, but...

Proper requirements gathering and design are supposed to take care of
these
things,

I'm not a proponent of one size fits all. You can dumb down software
to the point that *anybody* can use it at the expense of
conformability.

You're talking about eliminating customization. I'm talking about
eliminating the need to tweak, just to get your work done. There's quite a
difference.


Say what you will about
Microsoft, but in terms of what they do BEFORE the coding begins, their
process is almost perfect.


Too bad the product doesn't follow suit... not a week goes by that I
don't have to download some patch or other.... or, until Win2000
experience the BSD every day or so.....

Apples and oranges. Yes, MS has security problems, and they're worse than
GWB, in terms of covering up the truth until the computer press blows their
cover. But: Try and make a list of 10 things you absolutely hate about Excel
or Word, in terms of USABILITY.


Give people their due. Micro$oft has not hired all of the good
thinkers and coders in the world..... there is some really good
software out there that lacks Micro$oft's advertising budget.

Of course! I'm simply pointing out that Microsoft gets slammed on a
wholesale basis because of their security issues. If you follow all the
press about their products, though, you find little or nothing negative
about USABILITY. That's where they did their homework.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

And see? I find MS Word so "feature packed" that I had a hard time getting
it to do the basics without reading the docs a bit.

-W


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message news:5ADVb.15173

Of course! I'm simply pointing out that Microsoft gets slammed on a
wholesale basis because of their security issues. If you follow all the
press about their products, though, you find little or nothing negative
about USABILITY. That's where they did their homework.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 03:54:09 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

~~snippity do da ~~

In a correctly ordered software project, the processes I described are not
done by tech heads. As you said, this usually spells disaster. Requirements
gathering is a dialog between designers and the intended user population,
with programmers left OUT of the loop for the time being. Ideally, designers
are people who know what the programmers are capable of, but that's the
extent of their involvement with programming.

Again, I agree. The wrinkle is when you design a piece of software
(by design I mean set up a set of specifications - I want the software
to do this and this...etc.). Once it gets to the technoids it becomes
a fight between the hardware folks ("that's not a hardware function -
it's a firmware function"), the firmware folks ("that's not a firmware
function, that's a software function") and the software folks ("Well,
we can do that but you have to change the specifications because the
software won't do this and this and...oh, by the way it will take at
least a year to eighteen months unless you get the hardware to change
this and firmware to do this".

Been there, done that. :)

The design process in most pure software projects is alo a train
wreck. Programmers are given a set of specifications, the wrangle
about what can and can't be done begins, marketing gets involved,
first run gets to the customer who goes "what the f---?" :)

Back it goes for Rev: 1.1.

Been there, done that. ;)

Of course, the answer is good solid engineering management, but the
managers are busy with personnel reports, turf fights, personality
conflicts, political fights, avoiding tough projects, answering
questions from on high, writing evaluations, that they dont' have time
to keep up with the technical stuff and get into the "make it go away"
mode.

Been there, done that. :)

In a perfect world, you would be on the mark. There ain't no such
thing.

~~ snippity do da ~~

It's also a somewhat concept becuase it is "open source" only to those
who understand the coding structure - thus the end results will be the
same.

Exactly, but worse: Many of the contributors to BIG open source projects are
children. Literally. Teenagers who think it's cool to see their defective
code included in something famous. But, they never got the message about
gathering requirements first.

LOL!!!! Man, I could tell you stories....

I don't know if you enjoy computer books or not, but the bible of user
interface design is quite fascinating. It's called "About Face 2.0: The
Essentials of Interaction Design", by Alan Cooper. When you're done with
it,
you'll know exactly which software authors belong in hell for all
eternity.

I'll look it up - thanks for the tip.

The above book is a good read for users, or people involved in software
construction. Cooper was responsible for the design of Visual Basic, but he
still takes plenty of pot shots at his old employer. It makes the book fun.
Here's another that would probably put most users right to sleep, but it's a
classic:
"Exploring Requirements - Quality Before Design", by Donald C. Gause &
Gerald M. Weinberg. It's a $44.00 textbook, but many libraries have it,
usually covered with dust. It's a real eye-opener because it makes it quite
clear which software firms missed the boat entirely.

Something tells me I've read this at some point. I'll go down to
UCONN and look it up. It's on the list - thanks for the tip.

Well, once I finish making up this years set of jigs, tubes and
fishign rods, I'll find time to read it. :)

See, that's the thing about being retired - you are about as busy as
you were when you were working.

Only it's more fun.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------

"To the fisherman born there is nothing
so provoking of curiosity as a fishing rod
in a case."

Roland Pertwee, "The River God" (1928)

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 22:57:02 -0500, thunder
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 01:41:17 +0000, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:

I sort of agree with you on that. However, what techheads might think
of as being a good idea, isn't always a good idea. What techheads
might think of as perfectly comprehensible and/or intuitive is
gibberish to a user. And that is the real problem with open source
because you have the same technoids messing around with what should be
a simple concept and all have differing ideas about how stuff should
work.

Yeah, but . . . Most open source software works quite well out of the box,
being configurable is a major plus. Open source software may not be for
everyone, but I love it. Anytime I am forced to use a Microsoft product,
I find it very limiting and frustrating. With open source I can set up my
system as I want to, not as Microsoft thinks I should.

That's exactly what Doug and I have been discussing. Not everybody
has the same capability or abilities that you have. Folks like me
need folks like you to program something that we can use only you
can't deal with that because your concept of what is "right" and/or
"correct" conflicts with mine. It's human nature.

Ok, that maybe too strong and I don't mean to offend, but it is a
basic fact of human/software interaction - what my concept of a
particular problem is different than your concept.

For example, let's say that I want to have a certain function on my
screen - you look at that and say that it's already there, all you
need to do is this and you have that function - I say, I don't care, I
want to get there doing this. You go off muttering and make it do
this.

That's how we came up with these cluges like OE and Explorer.

It's also a somewhat concept becuase it is "open source" only to those
who understand the coding structure - thus the end results will be the
same.

As the code is readily available, you can go that deeply, but it is by no
means necessary. Open source has come a long way and allows many choices.
It may not be your choice, but it is the choice of a growing number of
users.

Again, agreed. But if any software is only usable to a certain group
of people, then its functionality is specific to that group and only
that group. At that point, it becomes "closed".

Lynix is close to become exactly that - just like every other "open"
source system since day one.

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------

"To the fisherman born there is nothing
so provoking of curiosity as a fishing rod
in a case."

Roland Pertwee, "The River God" (1928)

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

And see? I find MS Word so "feature packed" that I had a hard time
getting
it to do the basics without reading the docs a bit.

Good. More people should read the instructions. Where did you ever read that
instructions wouldn't be necessary? If more people did, maybe the MS
newsgroups wouldn't be full of questions like "What's the diff btw save and
save as?"

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 01:41:17 +0000, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:

I sort of agree with you on that. However, what techheads might think
of as being a good idea, isn't always a good idea. What techheads
might think of as perfectly comprehensible and/or intuitive is
gibberish to a user. And that is the real problem with open source
because you have the same technoids messing around with what should be
a simple concept and all have differing ideas about how stuff should
work.

Yeah, but . . . Most open source software works quite well out of the box,
being configurable is a major plus. Open source software may not be for
everyone, but I love it. Anytime I am forced to use a Microsoft product,
I find it very limiting and frustrating. With open source I can set up my
system as I want to, not as Microsoft thinks I should.

It's also a somewhat concept becuase it is "open source" only to those
who understand the coding structure - thus the end results will be the
same.

As the code is readily available, you can go that deeply, but it is by no
means necessary. Open source has come a long way and allows many choices.
It may not be your choice, but it is the choice of a growing number of
users.


It's a cool idea. But I'll venture a guess and say that 90% of users have
absolutely no knowledge of programming. They shouldn't have to. No different
than the way most people view their cars. Most people have no interest in
customizing, and have no clue as to how they work. They just want the things
to run. Imagine if hammers, vacuum cleaners and lawnmowers behaved like
computer software. There'd be armed uprisings.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...

As the code is readily available, you can go that deeply, but it is by no
means necessary. Open source has come a long way and allows many
choices.
It may not be your choice, but it is the choice of a growing number of
users.

Again, agreed. But if any software is only usable to a certain group
of people, then its functionality is specific to that group and only
that group. At that point, it becomes "closed".

Lynix is close to become exactly that - just like every other "open"
source system since day one.

Mozilla, too. Newsgroups and web sites are loaded with ideas for tweaking
the thing, and some of those tweaks are necessary in order to stop behaviors
that are annoyances to large numbers of users. Tweaks are fun, except for
one thing: I have this thing called a full time job.

Not about boats.... *is* about newsreaders....
 

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 12:06:26 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 01:41:17 +0000, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:

I sort of agree with you on that. However, what techheads might think
of as being a good idea, isn't always a good idea. What techheads
might think of as perfectly comprehensible and/or intuitive is
gibberish to a user. And that is the real problem with open source
because you have the same technoids messing around with what should be
a simple concept and all have differing ideas about how stuff should
work.

Yeah, but . . . Most open source software works quite well out of the box,
being configurable is a major plus. Open source software may not be for
everyone, but I love it. Anytime I am forced to use a Microsoft product,
I find it very limiting and frustrating. With open source I can set up my
system as I want to, not as Microsoft thinks I should.

It's also a somewhat concept becuase it is "open source" only to those
who understand the coding structure - thus the end results will be the
same.

As the code is readily available, you can go that deeply, but it is by no
means necessary. Open source has come a long way and allows many choices.
It may not be your choice, but it is the choice of a growing number of
users.


It's a cool idea. But I'll venture a guess and say that 90% of users have
absolutely no knowledge of programming. They shouldn't have to. No different
than the way most people view their cars. Most people have no interest in
customizing, and have no clue as to how they work. They just want the things
to run. Imagine if hammers, vacuum cleaners and lawnmowers behaved like
computer software. There'd be armed uprisings.

And that's an even more interesting point.

I read somewhere that in Explorer (since the advent of Explorer),
people only use 30% of the functions available to them - everything
else is overhead.

The reason was explained as "too complicated".

Your example of "save" and "save as" is a perfect example. Why do you
need two save functions? Why not just have save? A little "window"
pops up and the default is what the file was named offering you the
opportunity to change the name or not. Why "save as"?

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------

"To the fisherman born there is nothing
so provoking of curiosity as a fishing rod
in a case."

Roland Pertwee, "The River God" (1928)