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Why isn't Dubya threatening the PRC?
"HarryKrause" wrote in message ... From ABC NEws: China passes Taiwan anti-secession law China's parliament has unanimously passed a law giving the Chinese military the legal basis to attack Taiwan if it moves towards independence. You won't see or hear much from the Bush neoconvicts on this; if you've got the ability to fight back, the good ol' USA will give you a pass. What do you want him to say? IF he threatens China you will call him a warmongering idiot, if he doesn't he's what, smart? No you'd never say that would you Harry? |
"HarryKrause" wrote in message ... The PRC is a far bigger threat to the existence of the United States than Iraq, Iran, and Syria combined. But Bush isn't going to threaten the PRC with a sword, because the Chinese would laugh at us. The US could easily flatten China, but you'd be back to that old MAD scenario. So unless George W can promise a quick trip to heaven and a dozen or so virgins per man..... it a no win situation. |
"HarryKrause" wrote in message ... From ABC NEws: China passes Taiwan anti-secession law China's parliament has unanimously passed a law giving the Chinese military the legal basis to attack Taiwan if it moves towards independence. The National People's Congress passed the legislation by an overwhelming majority of 2,896 votes for and none against. Two delegates abstained. The text of the draft, according to the Xinhua news agency, calls for the use of "non-peaceful means and other necessary measures to protect China's sovereignty and territorial integrity", if all else fails. This will be necessary "in the event that the 'Taiwan independence' secessionist forces should act under any name or by any means to cause the fact of Taiwan's secession from China", the draft law said. It does not specify what is meant by "non-peaceful means" but analysts believe it would cover anything from blockade to surgical missile strikes and all-out invasion. The law takes effect immediately. On his appointment as China's top military chief, President Hu Jintao told the army to prepare for war to safeguard the country's territorial integrity, in an apparent reference to Taiwan. - - - You won't see or hear much from the Bush neoconvicts on this; if you've got the ability to fight back, the good ol' USA will give you a pass. That'd be a little too much on our plate right now. Let the Middle East situation continue to come into shape. Once there are stable pro-US governments in the oil-producing countries, the World will have a have a more potent economic weapon to use against the Chinese. |
"HarryKrause" wrote in message ... Jeff Rigby wrote: "HarryKrause" wrote in message ... From ABC NEws: China passes Taiwan anti-secession law China's parliament has unanimously passed a law giving the Chinese military the legal basis to attack Taiwan if it moves towards independence. You won't see or hear much from the Bush neoconvicts on this; if you've got the ability to fight back, the good ol' USA will give you a pass. What do you want him to say? IF he threatens China you will call him a warmongering idiot, if he doesn't he's what, smart? No you'd never say that would you Harry? The point here is that the U.S. never pushes around a country that can push back. At least not until a few more pieces fall into place in the Middle East. There's a reason why we waited until lately to push Syria and Iran...and another reason why we'll slowly tighten the vice on Pakistan once the Syrian and Iranian threats are subdued. When we are war-mongering, we only send out troops against third or fourth-rate military powers, and then we brag about how wonderful they are and how terrific we are. Iraq twice, Panama, Grenada, and those weak little governments in central and South America we mess about with when they move away from right-wing extremism. Chile had to be one our of high points. The PRC is a far bigger threat to the existence of the United States than Iraq, Iran, and Syria combined. But Bush isn't going to threaten the PRC with a sword, because the Chinese would laugh at us. We'd beat the Chinese if we had to. But each side would lose 10's of millions in the process. The risk/reward ratio is much too high...at least for now. |
"Don White" wrote in message ... "HarryKrause" wrote in message ... The PRC is a far bigger threat to the existence of the United States than Iraq, Iran, and Syria combined. But Bush isn't going to threaten the PRC with a sword, because the Chinese would laugh at us. The US could easily flatten China, but you'd be back to that old MAD scenario. So unless George W can promise a quick trip to heaven and a dozen or so virgins per man..... it a no win situation. SDI is our ace in the hole...and we're getting closer to perfecting it. You are correct that the old MAD scenario will rear its ugly head again...this time, with China. But if China is convinced that any ICBMs launched at the US would be intercepted before they made landfall, they'd be a lot more receptive to the threat of any military pressure from the US. |
Bush needs China's contribution to any solution to the N. Korean problem.
Maybe. |
"NOYB" wrote in message nk.net... "Don White" wrote in message ... "HarryKrause" wrote in message ... The PRC is a far bigger threat to the existence of the United States than Iraq, Iran, and Syria combined. But Bush isn't going to threaten the PRC with a sword, because the Chinese would laugh at us. The US could easily flatten China, but you'd be back to that old MAD scenario. So unless George W can promise a quick trip to heaven and a dozen or so virgins per man..... it a no win situation. SDI is our ace in the hole...and we're getting closer to perfecting it. You are correct that the old MAD scenario will rear its ugly head again...this time, with China. But if China is convinced that any ICBMs launched at the US would be intercepted before they made landfall, they'd be a lot more receptive to the threat of any military pressure from the US. Closer to perfecting? If you leave Boston, driving to Texas, and your car dies and ends your trip just north of Hartford CT, yes, you are closer than when you left Boston, but not enough to user the word "closer" with any sense of celebration. To relate this to the SDI idea, the news indicates that there have been some pretty basic (and potentially embarrassing) problems. Never pin your hopes on technology which is a last resort. Instead, you should be wondering why China is so hot to have Taiwan back, and whether it's any of our damned business. |
"HarryKrause" wrote in message ... NOYB wrote: "HarryKrause" wrote in message ... From ABC NEws: China passes Taiwan anti-secession law China's parliament has unanimously passed a law giving the Chinese military the legal basis to attack Taiwan if it moves towards independence. The National People's Congress passed the legislation by an overwhelming majority of 2,896 votes for and none against. Two delegates abstained. The text of the draft, according to the Xinhua news agency, calls for the use of "non-peaceful means and other necessary measures to protect China's sovereignty and territorial integrity", if all else fails. This will be necessary "in the event that the 'Taiwan independence' secessionist forces should act under any name or by any means to cause the fact of Taiwan's secession from China", the draft law said. It does not specify what is meant by "non-peaceful means" but analysts believe it would cover anything from blockade to surgical missile strikes and all-out invasion. The law takes effect immediately. On his appointment as China's top military chief, President Hu Jintao told the army to prepare for war to safeguard the country's territorial integrity, in an apparent reference to Taiwan. - - - You won't see or hear much from the Bush neoconvicts on this; if you've got the ability to fight back, the good ol' USA will give you a pass. That'd be a little too much on our plate right now. Let the Middle East situation continue to come into shape. Once there are stable pro-US governments in the oil-producing countries, the World will have a have a more potent economic weapon to use against the Chinese. Apples and oranges. I stated Bush wouldn't have the balls to play military footsie with the PRC. We only take on ****ant military powers militarily. NPR news reported last week that China is years away from being able to coordinate its various forces in the way we can now, and that this keeps them from being as big a threat some would like to believe. |
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "NOYB" wrote in message nk.net... "Don White" wrote in message ... "HarryKrause" wrote in message ... The PRC is a far bigger threat to the existence of the United States than Iraq, Iran, and Syria combined. But Bush isn't going to threaten the PRC with a sword, because the Chinese would laugh at us. The US could easily flatten China, but you'd be back to that old MAD scenario. So unless George W can promise a quick trip to heaven and a dozen or so virgins per man..... it a no win situation. SDI is our ace in the hole...and we're getting closer to perfecting it. You are correct that the old MAD scenario will rear its ugly head again...this time, with China. But if China is convinced that any ICBMs launched at the US would be intercepted before they made landfall, they'd be a lot more receptive to the threat of any military pressure from the US. Closer to perfecting? If you leave Boston, driving to Texas, and your car dies and ends your trip just north of Hartford CT, yes, you are closer than when you left Boston, but not enough to user the word "closer" with any sense of celebration. That's not an apt analogy. A better one would be: You make a trip to Texas 8 different times. Two of those times, your car dies somewhere in the midwest...and once, it once wouldn't start in the driveway. The other 5 trips went just as planned. The missile defense tests have hit their mark 5 out of 8 times. I'd say we're "closer to perfecting" the system. I would estimate that before the end of Bush's second term, we'll have at least some semblance of a working system in place. What's happening now is nothing new. Didn't you follow the space program before we successfully landed on the moon? Would you argue that with each test...some successful, and some not...that we weren't any "closer to perfecting" our ability to reach the moon? |
NOYB wrote:
SDI is our ace in the hole...and we're getting closer to perfecting it. No we aren't. The contractors are making a smoke-and-mirrors show. The Pentagon declared the last round of tests to be a failure. ... You are correct that the old MAD scenario will rear its ugly head again...this time, with China. But if China is convinced that any ICBMs launched at the US would be intercepted before they made landfall, they'd be a lot more receptive to the threat of any military pressure from the US. What a laugh. China could trash the US economy with the stroke of a pen. President Bush wouold be incredibly stupid to threaten them... and while he may or may not be that stupid... I'd prefer to not find out... somebody in his cabinet does have better sense and makes sure he doesn't make the Chinese angry. Look what happened when they held that spy plane and it's crew... DSK |
Doug Kanter wrote:
NPR news reported last week that China is years away from being able to coordinate its various forces in the way we can now, and that this keeps them from being as big a threat some would like to believe. You mean 'NPR the socialist mouthpiece radio station'?? They must have some kind of nefarious plot if they are saying good things about the US military!! Actually, the US could control the Taiwan Straights easily, and the Chinese could do little except sacrifice their forces... two carrier battle groups would do it. Their subs are more of a threat than anything else. They could also plaster Taiwan with rockets. But we will do nothing of the sort, for one thing (as you yourself pointed out) we need to keep on China's good side so they'll do something about North Korea and their nukes, and (as I pointed out) they are holding enough US debt to drop the dollar to pennies or less. The Taiwanese have figured out that the US is a broken reed as an ally, but I'm not sure if they have any plans for what to do next, if China really decides to annex them. DSK |
"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net... Closer to perfecting? If you leave Boston, driving to Texas, and your car dies and ends your trip just north of Hartford CT, yes, you are closer than when you left Boston, but not enough to user the word "closer" with any sense of celebration. That's not an apt analogy. A better one would be: You make a trip to Texas 8 different times. Two of those times, your car dies somewhere in the midwest...and once, it once wouldn't start in the driveway. The other 5 trips went just as planned. The missile defense tests have hit their mark 5 out of 8 times. I'd say we're "closer to perfecting" the system. I would estimate that before the end of Bush's second term, we'll have at least some semblance of a working system in place. Just one problem: The system could have two purposes. 1) Prevent an attack which we had absolutely nothing to do with provoking. This is a good thing. 2) Prevent a RESPONSE to a situation created by a group consisting of one idiot and a handful of madmen, who think that a good way to free up some oil supply would be to cripple or eliminate the world's *other* legitimate customer, China. #2 is highly likely, considering the fact that your master and his crew have already shown that they like to create mayhem where there was none before. What's happening now is nothing new. Didn't you follow the space program before we successfully landed on the moon? Would you argue that with each test...some successful, and some not...that we weren't any "closer to perfecting" our ability to reach the moon? Moon missions could've have failed endlessly for 20 years and it would not have been the same, since the systems being developed were not needed to back up the threats of a madman. There was nothing to lose but the lives of volunteers, and a lot of time spent debating the budget of the thing in Congress. |
"DSK" wrote in message .. . NOYB wrote: SDI is our ace in the hole...and we're getting closer to perfecting it. No we aren't. The contractors are making a smoke-and-mirrors show. The Pentagon declared the last round of tests to be a failure. ... You are correct that the old MAD scenario will rear its ugly head again...this time, with China. But if China is convinced that any ICBMs launched at the US would be intercepted before they made landfall, they'd be a lot more receptive to the threat of any military pressure from the US. What a laugh. China could trash the US economy with the stroke of a pen. President Bush wouold be incredibly stupid to threaten them... and while he may or may not be that stupid... I'd prefer to not find out... somebody in his cabinet does have better sense and makes sure he doesn't make the Chinese angry. Look what happened when they held that spy plane and it's crew... DSK Bush probably thinks he can appease them with boxes of Omaha steaks. Meanwhile....I doubt there are any t-shirt manufacturers left in this country. They wouldn't need to threaten us economically. All they need to do is cut off our supply of clothing. |
"HarryKrause" wrote in message ... Doug Kanter wrote: "HarryKrause" wrote in message ... NOYB wrote: "HarryKrause" wrote in message ... From ABC NEws: China passes Taiwan anti-secession law China's parliament has unanimously passed a law giving the Chinese military the legal basis to attack Taiwan if it moves towards independence. The National People's Congress passed the legislation by an overwhelming majority of 2,896 votes for and none against. Two delegates abstained. The text of the draft, according to the Xinhua news agency, calls for the use of "non-peaceful means and other necessary measures to protect China's sovereignty and territorial integrity", if all else fails. This will be necessary "in the event that the 'Taiwan independence' secessionist forces should act under any name or by any means to cause the fact of Taiwan's secession from China", the draft law said. It does not specify what is meant by "non-peaceful means" but analysts believe it would cover anything from blockade to surgical missile strikes and all-out invasion. The law takes effect immediately. On his appointment as China's top military chief, President Hu Jintao told the army to prepare for war to safeguard the country's territorial integrity, in an apparent reference to Taiwan. - - - You won't see or hear much from the Bush neoconvicts on this; if you've got the ability to fight back, the good ol' USA will give you a pass. That'd be a little too much on our plate right now. Let the Middle East situation continue to come into shape. Once there are stable pro-US governments in the oil-producing countries, the World will have a have a more potent economic weapon to use against the Chinese. Apples and oranges. I stated Bush wouldn't have the balls to play military footsie with the PRC. We only take on ****ant military powers militarily. NPR news reported last week that China is years away from being able to coordinate its various forces in the way we can now, and that this keeps them from being as big a threat some would like to believe. China *has* WMDs, including nukes, and the ability to deliver them where they want. Go to www.npr.org and browse last week's story archives for either the morning or afternoon shows. Not sure when I heard it. They have the toys, but the DoD veteran they interviewed said that they'd have a hard time defending against certain common types of military action, due to their lack of modern coordination methods. |
"DSK" wrote in message .. . NOYB wrote: SDI is our ace in the hole...and we're getting closer to perfecting it. No we aren't. The contractors are making a smoke-and-mirrors show. The Pentagon declared the last round of tests to be a failure. ... You are correct that the old MAD scenario will rear its ugly head again...this time, with China. But if China is convinced that any ICBMs launched at the US would be intercepted before they made landfall, they'd be a lot more receptive to the threat of any military pressure from the US. What a laugh. China could trash the US economy with the stroke of a pen. And we could do the same to them. But their thirst for US dollars to feed their military would preclude them from doing such a thing. We'd take it on the chin, but we'd recover a lot more rapidly. There'd be an immediate surge in inflation, and an overwhelming demand for products and parts that aren't available. Your local TV/electronics repairman would be stuffed to the gills with work. The dollar stores would all go under. Remember that we had a strong, vibrant economy *before* we started doing business in China. Their economy didn't come around until we started doing business there. President Bush wouold be incredibly stupid to threaten them... and while he may or may not be that stupid... I'd prefer to not find out... At least we agree on this point. somebody in his cabinet does have better sense and makes sure he doesn't make the Chinese angry. The Chinese started getting bolder and more aggressive once Clinton signed the bill to grant Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China in 2000. Look what happened when they held that spy plane and it's crew... What happened? China joined the WTO in December? That's a good thing. They'll make agreements through the WTO, and then the WTO will ensure that they're living up to their agreements. |
"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net... President Bush wouold be incredibly stupid to threaten them... and while he may or may not be that stupid... I'd prefer to not find out... At least we agree on this point. He *will* say something stupid or obnoxious to the Chinese before his term is over. You know that. We can only hope he doesn't get his hands on copies of anything Nixon said back in the late 1950s or early 1960s, and decide to retread it for one of his speeches. |
"DSK" wrote in message .. . Doug Kanter wrote: NPR news reported last week that China is years away from being able to coordinate its various forces in the way we can now, and that this keeps them from being as big a threat some would like to believe. You mean 'NPR the socialist mouthpiece radio station'?? They must have some kind of nefarious plot if they are saying good things about the US military!! Actually, the US could control the Taiwan Straights easily, and the Chinese could do little except sacrifice their forces... two carrier battle groups would do it. Their subs are more of a threat than anything else. They could also plaster Taiwan with rockets. But we will do nothing of the sort, for one thing (as you yourself pointed out) we need to keep on China's good side so they'll do something about North Korea and their nukes, and (as I pointed out) they are holding enough US debt to drop the dollar to pennies or less. The Taiwanese have figured out that the US is a broken reed as an ally, but I'm not sure if they have any plans for what to do next, if China really decides to annex them. DSK Probably not much. If I recall, the same news story said that a Taiwanese defense toy purchase is now held up in Congress. |
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... Meanwhile....I doubt there are any t-shirt manufacturers left in this country. They wouldn't need to threaten us economically. All they need to do is cut off our supply of clothing. Not just t-shirts..... Almost all the clothing I see at Sears etc are made in China. What about all the cheap appliances. We'd all be shivering standing over an old pot trying to boil water on an open fire. Great position those $%#^#% CEO's got us in by sending all the maufacturing jobs overseas. They all should be tried for treason. |
What a laugh. China could trash the US economy with the stroke of a pen.
NOYB wrote: And we could do the same to them. How? ... But their thirst for US dollars to feed their military would preclude them from doing such a thing. "Their thirst for US dollars" is already way way oversatisfied... they are holding approximately 17 times our annual GDP in US debt... We'd take it on the chin, but we'd recover a lot more rapidly. I doubt it very seriously, but I don't want to find out. China dumping all their US Treasury holdings would collapse the dollar to zero... The ensuing collapse would make the Great Depression look like kindergarten picnic. Look what happened when they held that spy plane and it's crew... What happened? President Bush made a few feeble threats, and then fell all over himself in eagerness to kiss their butts. ... China joined the WTO in December? That's a good thing. They'll make agreements through the WTO, and then the WTO will ensure that they're living up to their agreements. Ya think so? Might want to check on that. The Chinese have gained enormously, and have forstalled any WTO obligations as far as I've seen. Think about how Dubya is going to finance another war when the the US gov't's credit rating is zilcho. Did you pay any attention to what happened to Russia when they defaulted a few years back? Think about that scenario repeated here... DSK |
DSK wrote:
"Their thirst for US dollars" is already way way oversatisfied... they are holding approximately 17 times our annual GDP in US debt... That figure is not quite correct. The amount of US debt held by Asian core banks (including Thailand & Singapore) is approximately 17 times current US GDP. China is well over half that, though, and if China started dumping, the smart bet is that they all would join in if only to make a slight recovery before it crashed to zero. Even our old pal Japan would probably join in. Of course, we could always nuke 'em. Our ICBMs and warheads are already paid for! DSK |
"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net... What happened? China joined the WTO in December? That's a good thing. They'll make agreements through the WTO, and then the WTO will ensure that they're living up to their agreements. What an interesting comment. You profess that the U.N. is a useless, toothless organization, but you now think the WTO is worthwhile and effective. |
NOBBY wrote
What happened? China joined the WTO in December? That's a good thing. They'll make agreements through the WTO, and then the WTO will ensure that they're living up to their agreements. Doug Kanter wrote: What an interesting comment. You profess that the U.N. is a useless, toothless organization, but you now think the WTO is worthwhile and effective. Which is particularly ironic, considering that the WTO has already tried to slap China's fingers and have been laughably ineffective... "toothless" in other words... But y'know, it seems that Bush/Cheney supporters are prone to this kind of tail-biting in their attempts at logic. They don't seem to mind... many times they don't even notice... DSK |
"DSK" wrote in message . .. What a laugh. China could trash the US economy with the stroke of a pen. NOYB wrote: And we could do the same to them. How? Their economy is totally dependent on US purchases. |
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "NOYB" wrote in message ink.net... What happened? China joined the WTO in December? That's a good thing. They'll make agreements through the WTO, and then the WTO will ensure that they're living up to their agreements. What an interesting comment. You profess that the U.N. is a useless, toothless organization, but you now think the WTO is worthwhile and effective. It's only useful to sway world opinion. To China, that's a big deal. China buys very little from the rest of the World, but exports a ton. If the World quit buying US products, we'd be hurt, but we wouldn't wither and die. If the world quit buying Chinese products, their economy would be decimated. |
"NOYB" wrote in message nk.net... "DSK" wrote in message . .. What a laugh. China could trash the US economy with the stroke of a pen. NOYB wrote: And we could do the same to them. How? Their economy is totally dependent on US purchases. The PRC is NOT totally dependent on the USA. Where did you ever get that impression? China is a HUGE trading partner for the whole of Europe, Japan, Australia, Canada, Mexico and some of the Countries of South American and South Africa. You need to get a Global Education and not be so narrow minded. Jim |
"NOYB" wrote in message nk.net... "DSK" wrote in message . .. What a laugh. China could trash the US economy with the stroke of a pen. NOYB wrote: And we could do the same to them. How? Their economy is totally dependent on US purchases. You better hope your president fears Wal Mart's wrath more than the god he pretends to worship. |
"HarryKrause" wrote in message ... Doug Kanter wrote: "HarryKrause" wrote in message ... Doug Kanter wrote: "HarryKrause" wrote in message ... NOYB wrote: "HarryKrause" wrote in message ... From ABC NEws: China passes Taiwan anti-secession law China's parliament has unanimously passed a law giving the Chinese military the legal basis to attack Taiwan if it moves towards independence. The National People's Congress passed the legislation by an overwhelming majority of 2,896 votes for and none against. Two delegates abstained. The text of the draft, according to the Xinhua news agency, calls for the use of "non-peaceful means and other necessary measures to protect China's sovereignty and territorial integrity", if all else fails. This will be necessary "in the event that the 'Taiwan independence' secessionist forces should act under any name or by any means to cause the fact of Taiwan's secession from China", the draft law said. It does not specify what is meant by "non-peaceful means" but analysts believe it would cover anything from blockade to surgical missile strikes and all-out invasion. The law takes effect immediately. On his appointment as China's top military chief, President Hu Jintao told the army to prepare for war to safeguard the country's territorial integrity, in an apparent reference to Taiwan. - - - You won't see or hear much from the Bush neoconvicts on this; if you've got the ability to fight back, the good ol' USA will give you a pass. That'd be a little too much on our plate right now. Let the Middle East situation continue to come into shape. Once there are stable pro-US governments in the oil-producing countries, the World will have a have a more potent economic weapon to use against the Chinese. Apples and oranges. I stated Bush wouldn't have the balls to play military footsie with the PRC. We only take on ****ant military powers militarily. NPR news reported last week that China is years away from being able to coordinate its various forces in the way we can now, and that this keeps them from being as big a threat some would like to believe. China *has* WMDs, including nukes, and the ability to deliver them where they want. Go to www.npr.org and browse last week's story archives for either the morning or afternoon shows. Not sure when I heard it. They have the toys, but the DoD veteran they interviewed said that they'd have a hard time defending against certain common types of military action, due to their lack of modern coordination methods. I think you are missing my point. What I stated was this: China can *deliver* large-scale WMDs onto our shores. The fact that it has a large standing army is not relevant. If we play footsie with the PRC, we will have nukes and suchlike raining down on us. Then you've just answered your own question as to why we pick on 3rd rate military powers and ignore nuclear armed countries like China and North Korea. Once the WMD cat is let out of the proverbial bag in these 3rd rate countries, all of the arm-twisting in the world no longer works. It's not too late to prevent that from happening in the Middle East. |
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:32:19 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote: "NOYB" wrote in message link.net... Closer to perfecting? If you leave Boston, driving to Texas, and your car dies and ends your trip just north of Hartford CT, yes, you are closer than when you left Boston, but not enough to user the word "closer" with any sense of celebration. That's not an apt analogy. A better one would be: You make a trip to Texas 8 different times. Two of those times, your car dies somewhere in the midwest...and once, it once wouldn't start in the driveway. The other 5 trips went just as planned. The missile defense tests have hit their mark 5 out of 8 times. I'd say we're "closer to perfecting" the system. I would estimate that before the end of Bush's second term, we'll have at least some semblance of a working system in place. Just one problem: The system could have two purposes. 1) Prevent an attack which we had absolutely nothing to do with provoking. This is a good thing. 2) Prevent a RESPONSE to a situation created by a group consisting of one idiot and a handful of madmen, who think that a good way to free up some oil supply would be to cripple or eliminate the world's *other* legitimate customer, China. #2 is highly likely, considering the fact that your master and his crew have already shown that they like to create mayhem where there was none before. What's happening now is nothing new. Didn't you follow the space program before we successfully landed on the moon? Would you argue that with each test...some successful, and some not...that we weren't any "closer to perfecting" our ability to reach the moon? Moon missions could've have failed endlessly for 20 years and it would not have been the same, since the systems being developed were not needed to back up the threats of a madman. There was nothing to lose but the lives of volunteers, and a lot of time spent debating the budget of the thing in Congress. Would you rather the response be successful? -- John H "All decisions are the result of binary thinking." |
"John H" wrote in message ... On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:32:19 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "NOYB" wrote in message hlink.net... Closer to perfecting? If you leave Boston, driving to Texas, and your car dies and ends your trip just north of Hartford CT, yes, you are closer than when you left Boston, but not enough to user the word "closer" with any sense of celebration. That's not an apt analogy. A better one would be: You make a trip to Texas 8 different times. Two of those times, your car dies somewhere in the midwest...and once, it once wouldn't start in the driveway. The other 5 trips went just as planned. The missile defense tests have hit their mark 5 out of 8 times. I'd say we're "closer to perfecting" the system. I would estimate that before the end of Bush's second term, we'll have at least some semblance of a working system in place. Just one problem: The system could have two purposes. 1) Prevent an attack which we had absolutely nothing to do with provoking. This is a good thing. 2) Prevent a RESPONSE to a situation created by a group consisting of one idiot and a handful of madmen, who think that a good way to free up some oil supply would be to cripple or eliminate the world's *other* legitimate customer, China. #2 is highly likely, considering the fact that your master and his crew have already shown that they like to create mayhem where there was none before. What's happening now is nothing new. Didn't you follow the space program before we successfully landed on the moon? Would you argue that with each test...some successful, and some not...that we weren't any "closer to perfecting" our ability to reach the moon? Moon missions could've have failed endlessly for 20 years and it would not have been the same, since the systems being developed were not needed to back up the threats of a madman. There was nothing to lose but the lives of volunteers, and a lot of time spent debating the budget of the thing in Congress. Would you rather the response be successful? The point was that NOYB thinks the system, which is seriously hobbled by technical problems, is close to be "good enough". In fact, the system has to be perfect if it will be placed in operation while Bush is in office because as you know, your president *will* say or do something stupid and bust open yet another hornet's nest, just like he did in Iraq. |
"Jim Carter" wrote in message ... "NOYB" wrote in message nk.net... "DSK" wrote in message . .. What a laugh. China could trash the US economy with the stroke of a pen. NOYB wrote: And we could do the same to them. How? Their economy is totally dependent on US purchases. The PRC is NOT totally dependent on the USA. Where did you ever get that impression? China is a HUGE trading partner for the whole of Europe, Japan, Australia, Canada, Mexico and some of the Countries of South American and South Africa. You need to get a Global Education and not be so narrow minded. Nearly 18% of Chinese exports go to the US. Since we're discussing the effect that Chinese aggression against Taiwan would have, then it's safe to say that China would lose the following trade partners in the event of a war with Taiwan: US, Japan, and Taiwan. Together, those three countries make up 3 of China's top 5 trade partners...and almost 44% of China's total exports. It's also likely that China would lose the following as trade partners: Hong Kong, S. Korea, and Germany. That'd account for 70% of China's trade. Keep in mind, that this says nothing about the effect that our corporations would have in pulling their factories out China. |
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "NOYB" wrote in message nk.net... "DSK" wrote in message . .. What a laugh. China could trash the US economy with the stroke of a pen. NOYB wrote: And we could do the same to them. How? Their economy is totally dependent on US purchases. You better hope your president fears Wal Mart's wrath more than the god he pretends to worship. Walmart has the Chinese over a barrell. Just think what would happen if Wal-Mart decided tomorrow that it wouldn't buy products made in China any longer. The Chinese economy would tank. |
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:00:35 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote: "John H" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:32:19 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "NOYB" wrote in message thlink.net... Closer to perfecting? If you leave Boston, driving to Texas, and your car dies and ends your trip just north of Hartford CT, yes, you are closer than when you left Boston, but not enough to user the word "closer" with any sense of celebration. That's not an apt analogy. A better one would be: You make a trip to Texas 8 different times. Two of those times, your car dies somewhere in the midwest...and once, it once wouldn't start in the driveway. The other 5 trips went just as planned. The missile defense tests have hit their mark 5 out of 8 times. I'd say we're "closer to perfecting" the system. I would estimate that before the end of Bush's second term, we'll have at least some semblance of a working system in place. Just one problem: The system could have two purposes. 1) Prevent an attack which we had absolutely nothing to do with provoking. This is a good thing. 2) Prevent a RESPONSE to a situation created by a group consisting of one idiot and a handful of madmen, who think that a good way to free up some oil supply would be to cripple or eliminate the world's *other* legitimate customer, China. #2 is highly likely, considering the fact that your master and his crew have already shown that they like to create mayhem where there was none before. What's happening now is nothing new. Didn't you follow the space program before we successfully landed on the moon? Would you argue that with each test...some successful, and some not...that we weren't any "closer to perfecting" our ability to reach the moon? Moon missions could've have failed endlessly for 20 years and it would not have been the same, since the systems being developed were not needed to back up the threats of a madman. There was nothing to lose but the lives of volunteers, and a lot of time spent debating the budget of the thing in Congress. Would you rather the response be successful? The point was that NOYB thinks the system, which is seriously hobbled by technical problems, is close to be "good enough". In fact, the system has to be perfect if it will be placed in operation while Bush is in office because as you know, your president *will* say or do something stupid and bust open yet another hornet's nest, just like he did in Iraq. It makes no difference. Canada has said we can't fire anti-missile missiles overhead without it's express permission. Surely they've told China the same thing. Right? -- John H "All decisions are the result of binary thinking." |
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:31:17 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:
"Jim Carter" wrote in message ... "NOYB" wrote in message nk.net... "DSK" wrote in message . .. What a laugh. China could trash the US economy with the stroke of a pen. NOYB wrote: And we could do the same to them. How? Their economy is totally dependent on US purchases. The PRC is NOT totally dependent on the USA. Where did you ever get that impression? China is a HUGE trading partner for the whole of Europe, Japan, Australia, Canada, Mexico and some of the Countries of South American and South Africa. You need to get a Global Education and not be so narrow minded. Nearly 18% of Chinese exports go to the US. Since we're discussing the effect that Chinese aggression against Taiwan would have, then it's safe to say that China would lose the following trade partners in the event of a war with Taiwan: US, Japan, and Taiwan. Together, those three countries make up 3 of China's top 5 trade partners...and almost 44% of China's total exports. It's also likely that China would lose the following as trade partners: Hong Kong, S. Korea, and Germany. That'd account for 70% of China's trade. Keep in mind, that this says nothing about the effect that our corporations would have in pulling their factories out China. France would probably make up what Germany quit buying, so you can't subtract them from the equation. -- John H "All decisions are the result of binary thinking." |
NOYB wrote: Let the Middle East situation continue to come into shape. Once there are stable pro-US governments in the oil-producing countries, Hehe!!!!! |
NOYB wrote:
Walmart has the Chinese over a barrell. Just think what would happen if Wal-Mart decided tomorrow that it wouldn't buy products made in China any longer. The Chinese economy would tank. Which do you think would happen faster 1- Wal-Mart causes the collapse of the Chinese economy, relying on some rather puny numbers (what percent of China's GDP does Wal-Mart represent?) and an economic domino effect, rather indirect 2- the collapse of the US economy if China announced that they were selling all their U.S. debt obligations... amounting to more than 7 times our total annual GDP... a rather overwhelming number and an immediate market reaction Y'know, I really really *don't* want to find out by trying it... if you're smart, you wouldn't either... DSK |
"John H" wrote in message ... On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:00:35 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "John H" wrote in message . .. On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:32:19 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "NOYB" wrote in message rthlink.net... Closer to perfecting? If you leave Boston, driving to Texas, and your car dies and ends your trip just north of Hartford CT, yes, you are closer than when you left Boston, but not enough to user the word "closer" with any sense of celebration. That's not an apt analogy. A better one would be: You make a trip to Texas 8 different times. Two of those times, your car dies somewhere in the midwest...and once, it once wouldn't start in the driveway. The other 5 trips went just as planned. The missile defense tests have hit their mark 5 out of 8 times. I'd say we're "closer to perfecting" the system. I would estimate that before the end of Bush's second term, we'll have at least some semblance of a working system in place. Just one problem: The system could have two purposes. 1) Prevent an attack which we had absolutely nothing to do with provoking. This is a good thing. 2) Prevent a RESPONSE to a situation created by a group consisting of one idiot and a handful of madmen, who think that a good way to free up some oil supply would be to cripple or eliminate the world's *other* legitimate customer, China. #2 is highly likely, considering the fact that your master and his crew have already shown that they like to create mayhem where there was none before. What's happening now is nothing new. Didn't you follow the space program before we successfully landed on the moon? Would you argue that with each test...some successful, and some not...that we weren't any "closer to perfecting" our ability to reach the moon? Moon missions could've have failed endlessly for 20 years and it would not have been the same, since the systems being developed were not needed to back up the threats of a madman. There was nothing to lose but the lives of volunteers, and a lot of time spent debating the budget of the thing in Congress. Would you rather the response be successful? The point was that NOYB thinks the system, which is seriously hobbled by technical problems, is close to be "good enough". In fact, the system has to be perfect if it will be placed in operation while Bush is in office because as you know, your president *will* say or do something stupid and bust open yet another hornet's nest, just like he did in Iraq. It makes no difference. Canada has said we can't fire anti-missile missiles overhead without it's express permission. Surely they've told China the same thing. Right? Canadians are drunk all the time. They'd never notice. |
"DSK" wrote in message .. . NOYB wrote: Walmart has the Chinese over a barrell. Just think what would happen if Wal-Mart decided tomorrow that it wouldn't buy products made in China any longer. The Chinese economy would tank. Which do you think would happen faster 1- Wal-Mart causes the collapse of the Chinese economy, relying on some rather puny numbers (what percent of China's GDP does Wal-Mart represent?) and an economic domino effect, rather indirect Walmart's purchases account for roughly 3% of Chinese exports...which is more than either Russia or Great Britain imports from China. 2- the collapse of the US economy if China announced that they were selling all their U.S. debt obligations... amounting to more than 7 times our total annual GDP From where are you getting these figures? China's US Treasury bond holdings in its foreign exchange reserves is roughly $180 billion. Last I checked, toaal annual US GDP was $11.73 trillion. ... a rather overwhelming number and an immediate market reaction Y'know, I really really *don't* want to find out by trying it... if you're smart, you wouldn't either... Of course I don't want to find out by trying it. But it's important to debate the hypotheticals. And my best guess is that we'd have a recession that would compare to the Carter years...and China would have a depression that would dwarf even our Great Depression. |
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "John H" wrote in message ... On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:00:35 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "John H" wrote in message ... On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:32:19 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "NOYB" wrote in message arthlink.net... Closer to perfecting? If you leave Boston, driving to Texas, and your car dies and ends your trip just north of Hartford CT, yes, you are closer than when you left Boston, but not enough to user the word "closer" with any sense of celebration. That's not an apt analogy. A better one would be: You make a trip to Texas 8 different times. Two of those times, your car dies somewhere in the midwest...and once, it once wouldn't start in the driveway. The other 5 trips went just as planned. The missile defense tests have hit their mark 5 out of 8 times. I'd say we're "closer to perfecting" the system. I would estimate that before the end of Bush's second term, we'll have at least some semblance of a working system in place. Just one problem: The system could have two purposes. 1) Prevent an attack which we had absolutely nothing to do with provoking. This is a good thing. 2) Prevent a RESPONSE to a situation created by a group consisting of one idiot and a handful of madmen, who think that a good way to free up some oil supply would be to cripple or eliminate the world's *other* legitimate customer, China. #2 is highly likely, considering the fact that your master and his crew have already shown that they like to create mayhem where there was none before. What's happening now is nothing new. Didn't you follow the space program before we successfully landed on the moon? Would you argue that with each test...some successful, and some not...that we weren't any "closer to perfecting" our ability to reach the moon? Moon missions could've have failed endlessly for 20 years and it would not have been the same, since the systems being developed were not needed to back up the threats of a madman. There was nothing to lose but the lives of volunteers, and a lot of time spent debating the budget of the thing in Congress. Would you rather the response be successful? The point was that NOYB thinks the system, which is seriously hobbled by technical problems, is close to be "good enough". In fact, the system has to be perfect if it will be placed in operation while Bush is in office because as you know, your president *will* say or do something stupid and bust open yet another hornet's nest, just like he did in Iraq. It makes no difference. Canada has said we can't fire anti-missile missiles overhead without it's express permission. Surely they've told China the same thing. Right? Canadians are drunk all the time. They'd never notice. Perhaps we can just make ICBM jammers and deflectors rather than missiles that will blow them out of the air? A launch coming over the polar ice caps would be forced down before it hit our northern border. There's not much worth saving north of Chicago anyhow. |
"NOYB" wrote in message nk.net... Nearly 18% of Chinese exports go to the US. Since we're discussing the effect that Chinese aggression against Taiwan would have, then it's safe to say that China would lose the following trade partners in the event of a war with Taiwan: US, Japan, and Taiwan. Together, those three countries make up 3 of China's top 5 trade partners...and almost 44% of China's total exports. It's also likely that China would lose the following as trade partners: Hong Kong, S. Korea, and Germany. That'd account for 70% of China's trade. Keep in mind, that this says nothing about the effect that our corporations would have in pulling their factories out China. I do think your calculations are very incorrect. If the PRC would be taking Taiwan back into the fold, they don't lose Taiwan as a trading partner, then gain it. Japan would not be lost as a trading partner for China as Japan has too much to lose with their trade with China to worry about the little bit with Taiwan. Also, the Japanese people are opposed to any war and their government would topple if there was any hint of an impending war. The exact same can be said of Germany as well as the rest of the European Economic Community. Where have you been when you are mentioning Hong Kong in your calculations? Hong Kong "is" a part of the PRC and has been since July 1, 1997. The American corporations pulling out of China would have almost no effect as they would be immediately replaced by corporations from The European Economic Community, Brazil and from Japan. As I said before. Your opinions are too narrow minded and your grasp of Global Politics is lacking. Jim Carter |
Y'know, I really really *don't* want to find out by trying it... if you're
smart, you wouldn't either... NOYB wrote: Of course I don't want to find out by trying it. Good. Let's both hope that the loudest voices in the Bush/Cheney cabinet are at least as smart as you are... ... But it's important to debate the hypotheticals. If you don't have your head stuck way way deep in the sand, sure. ... And my best guess is that we'd have a recession that would compare to the Carter years...and China would have a depression that would dwarf even our Great Depression. I think you've got it backwards. If our currency crashed, we'd be in the same shape as the Weimar Republic (look it up)... maybe worse. BTW take a look at some of the percentages here http://en.ce.cn/Markets/Currencies/2..._2411132.shtml This is the drop in the dollar caused merely by the slowing down of the rate at which the Chinese are buying up our debt, not even selling off any. BTW this article mentions the increase in Chinese cash holdings as over $500 billion, what percent of our GDP does that represent hmm? A bit more than 3% nyet? BTW here's an interesting little bid'ness article http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata...i.html#anchor3 Get the facts, NOBBY, get the facts. Attempts at logic based on wishful thinking will not get you very far in the real world, although it may make you a hero among the Bush/Cheney cheerleaders. DSK |
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