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Speaker installation
So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and
they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? TIA -j |
"Jay" wrote in message ... So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? TIA -j Always cover the face of the cut/drill area with duct tape...it reduces the likelihood of the gelcoat chipping. You say these are not flushmount speakers so I assume they are already installed in boxes and the brackets for the boxes are what you will be attaching to the boat. I would consider some sort of backing strap or plate the help support the brackets. Large washers are another consideration. |
Jay wrote:
So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. I've used a RotoZip for this - much easier than a Sabre Saw. If its simple glass it goes through it very quickly. Mine were in the cockpit seats which had a 1/2 ply backing, so I went though 3 or 4 bits for both holes. Tape the area with masking tape, draw your circle, and have a helper with a vacuum to keep the dust down. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? You shouldn't need support, but you could glass in some marine ply before or after you make your hole. |
Before you cut into the boat, are the speakers magnetically
shielded so as not to interfere with your compass? Jeff Morris wrote: Jay wrote: So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. I've used a RotoZip for this - much easier than a Sabre Saw. If its simple glass it goes through it very quickly. Mine were in the cockpit seats which had a 1/2 ply backing, so I went though 3 or 4 bits for both holes. Tape the area with masking tape, draw your circle, and have a helper with a vacuum to keep the dust down. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? You shouldn't need support, but you could glass in some marine ply before or after you make your hole. |
Well, these ( http://tinyurl.com/692pp ) are the ones I got.
They'll be going on either side of the walkway to the open bow (at cruise the two rears can't be heard at all, really.) I can climb under the dash on either side with enough room to work, and water (though moisture might) doesn't usually find it's way into that area.. -j wrote in message ... On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:03:14 -0500, "Jay" wrote: So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? TIA -j Where on the boat are you installing them? Most speakers I've seen are inappropriate for use in the cockpit, if that is what you are planning. Unless they have a sturdy and solid enclosure, they are strictly for inside the cabin, or maybe up high in a flying bridge. Speakers without enclosures in the cockpit, instantly become large holes for water to enter if the boat gets pooped. BB |
"Jay" wrote in message ... Well, these ( http://tinyurl.com/692pp ) are the ones I got. They'll be going on either side of the walkway to the open bow (at cruise the two rears can't be heard at all, really.) I can climb under the dash on either side with enough room to work, and water (though moisture might) doesn't usually find it's way into that area.. -j wrote in message ... On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:03:14 -0500, "Jay" wrote: So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? TIA -j Where on the boat are you installing them? Most speakers I've seen are inappropriate for use in the cockpit, if that is what you are planning. Unless they have a sturdy and solid enclosure, they are strictly for inside the cabin, or maybe up high in a flying bridge. Speakers without enclosures in the cockpit, instantly become large holes for water to enter if the boat gets pooped. BB The link tells us nothing about the speakers other than that they *are* flush mount. No backing plate needed. If they are exposed to the sun and sea spray I hope they are capable of withstanding the long term effects...rubber surrounds and neoprene cones. If not be prepared to be replacing them every year or two. Sometimes cheap is not always the best deal. |
They are, actually... though we're usually only on a landlocked river....
-j "chuck" wrote in message ... Before you cut into the boat, are the speakers magnetically shielded so as not to interfere with your compass? Jeff Morris wrote: Jay wrote: So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. I've used a RotoZip for this - much easier than a Sabre Saw. If its simple glass it goes through it very quickly. Mine were in the cockpit seats which had a 1/2 ply backing, so I went though 3 or 4 bits for both holes. Tape the area with masking tape, draw your circle, and have a helper with a vacuum to keep the dust down. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? You shouldn't need support, but you could glass in some marine ply before or after you make your hole. |
Those speakers are not magnetically shielded. That is not a problem as long
as you keep them away from the compass...e.g. 5 feet or so. "Jay" wrote in message ... They are, actually... though we're usually only on a landlocked river.... -j "chuck" wrote in message ... Before you cut into the boat, are the speakers magnetically shielded so as not to interfere with your compass? Jeff Morris wrote: Jay wrote: |
Sorry, that was a bit uninformative..
They weigh about 2 or 3 pounds/piece. They didn't come with back braces, and they would probably mount ok... my concern is the shock of slamming over wakes over time, cracking the perimeter... "Features: * Rubber surround * Magnetically Shielded * Weather-resistant woofer * UV impregnated ABS heat-resistant weatherproof grilles * One-piece formed ABS basket* Recommended amplifier power 10-60 watts RMS, 150 watts Peak * Requires 3.45" of mounting depth and 5.63" cutout diameter * * Dual Cone: Mylar * Cone: Polypropylene * Basket: Durable and light weight ABS plastic" "JimH" wrote in message ... "Jay" wrote in message ... Well, these ( http://tinyurl.com/692pp ) are the ones I got. They'll be going on either side of the walkway to the open bow (at cruise the two rears can't be heard at all, really.) I can climb under the dash on either side with enough room to work, and water (though moisture might) doesn't usually find it's way into that area.. -j wrote in message ... On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:03:14 -0500, "Jay" wrote: So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? TIA -j Where on the boat are you installing them? Most speakers I've seen are inappropriate for use in the cockpit, if that is what you are planning. Unless they have a sturdy and solid enclosure, they are strictly for inside the cabin, or maybe up high in a flying bridge. Speakers without enclosures in the cockpit, instantly become large holes for water to enter if the boat gets pooped. BB The link tells us nothing about the speakers other than that they *are* flush mount. No backing plate needed. If they are exposed to the sun and sea spray I hope they are capable of withstanding the long term effects...rubber surrounds and neoprene cones. If not be prepared to be replacing them every year or two. Sometimes cheap is not always the best deal. |
As long as you are happy with them they sound fine for a marine
environerment. Just mount them per the manufacturers instructions. No backing plate should be needed. If you want additional insurance use extra large washers. "Jay" wrote in message ... Sorry, that was a bit uninformative.. They weigh about 2 or 3 pounds/piece. They didn't come with back braces, and they would probably mount ok... my concern is the shock of slamming over wakes over time, cracking the perimeter... "Features: * Rubber surround * Magnetically Shielded * Weather-resistant woofer * UV impregnated ABS heat-resistant weatherproof grilles * One-piece formed ABS basket* Recommended amplifier power 10-60 watts RMS, 150 watts Peak * Requires 3.45" of mounting depth and 5.63" cutout diameter * * Dual Cone: Mylar * Cone: Polypropylene * Basket: Durable and light weight ABS plastic" "JimH" wrote in message ... "Jay" wrote in message ... Well, these ( http://tinyurl.com/692pp ) are the ones I got. They'll be going on either side of the walkway to the open bow (at cruise the two rears can't be heard at all, really.) I can climb under the dash on either side with enough room to work, and water (though moisture might) doesn't usually find it's way into that area.. -j wrote in message ... On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:03:14 -0500, "Jay" wrote: So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? TIA -j Where on the boat are you installing them? Most speakers I've seen are inappropriate for use in the cockpit, if that is what you are planning. Unless they have a sturdy and solid enclosure, they are strictly for inside the cabin, or maybe up high in a flying bridge. Speakers without enclosures in the cockpit, instantly become large holes for water to enter if the boat gets pooped. BB The link tells us nothing about the speakers other than that they *are* flush mount. No backing plate needed. If they are exposed to the sun and sea spray I hope they are capable of withstanding the long term effects...rubber surrounds and neoprene cones. If not be prepared to be replacing them every year or two. Sometimes cheap is not always the best deal. |
"JimH" wrote in message ... "Jay" wrote in message ... So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? TIA -j Always cover the face of the cut/drill area with duct tape...it reduces the likelihood of the gelcoat chipping. NEVER use duct tape for masking. When you remove it either the adhesive will stay and is a bear to remove, or it will tear off any finish it was applied over. Use something like 3M blue tape. You say these are not flushmount speakers so I assume they are already installed in boxes and the brackets for the boxes are what you will be attaching to the boat. I would consider some sort of backing strap or plate the help support the brackets. Large washers are another consideration. |
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "JimH" wrote in message ... "Jay" wrote in message ... So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? TIA -j Always cover the face of the cut/drill area with duct tape...it reduces the likelihood of the gelcoat chipping. NEVER use duct tape for masking. You are correct. I should have said masking tape. |
"Jay" wrote in message
... Sorry, that was a bit uninformative.. They weigh about 2 or 3 pounds/piece. They didn't come with back braces, and they would probably mount ok... my concern is the shock of slamming over wakes over time, cracking the perimeter... Get yourself a piece of 3/4" birch ply. Cut a square for each speaker, about 2" bigger than the speaker. Cut your holes in the fiberglass. Make them perfect. Put the birch ply behind the holes you've made, trace the holes onto the plywood, and cut holes in that, too. Actually, do that ***BEFORE*** you've cut it into squares. The big piece of ply will be easier to clamp to a work surface than the smaller squares. Mount the speakers with the wooden squares as bracing from behind. One thing you didn't mention: What will be the enclosure BEHIND the speakers? For any speaker, there's a very small range of correct enclosure size. Get far from that range and the speaker becomes all but useless in terms of bass response. Trying to get decent bass by dicking around with tone controls will just overdrive your radio or amplifier, and blow up your speakers in short order. Hint: In even the quietest cars, you need about 75 ***CLEAN*** watts per channel to overcome road noise. If you intend to run this stereo in a boat while the engine's running, you need about twice that much power. Otherwise, you'd better be a big fan of distortion and blown speakers. |
Some folks recommend a minimum of 3 meters or ten feet
separation. Wouldn't hurt to conduct a test. Probably best done with the boat out of the water so it can't move during the test. May not be a problem at all on a landlocked river, but other readers might be more concerned about the effects of strong onboard magnets on offshore navigation. Some modern speakers have amazingly powerful magnets. JimH wrote: Those speakers are not magnetically shielded. That is not a problem as long as you keep them away from the compass...e.g. 5 feet or so. "Jay" wrote in message ... They are, actually... though we're usually only on a landlocked river.... -j "chuck" wrote in message ... Before you cut into the boat, are the speakers magnetically shielded so as not to interfere with your compass? Jeff Morris wrote: Jay wrote: |
The birch idea sounds good..
Can't say I gave enclosures much though.. sounds like I need to though. .. . -j "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Jay" wrote in message ... Sorry, that was a bit uninformative.. They weigh about 2 or 3 pounds/piece. They didn't come with back braces, and they would probably mount ok... my concern is the shock of slamming over wakes over time, cracking the perimeter... Get yourself a piece of 3/4" birch ply. Cut a square for each speaker, about 2" bigger than the speaker. Cut your holes in the fiberglass. Make them perfect. Put the birch ply behind the holes you've made, trace the holes onto the plywood, and cut holes in that, too. Actually, do that ***BEFORE*** you've cut it into squares. The big piece of ply will be easier to clamp to a work surface than the smaller squares. Mount the speakers with the wooden squares as bracing from behind. One thing you didn't mention: What will be the enclosure BEHIND the speakers? For any speaker, there's a very small range of correct enclosure size. Get far from that range and the speaker becomes all but useless in terms of bass response. Trying to get decent bass by dicking around with tone controls will just overdrive your radio or amplifier, and blow up your speakers in short order. Hint: In even the quietest cars, you need about 75 ***CLEAN*** watts per channel to overcome road noise. If you intend to run this stereo in a boat while the engine's running, you need about twice that much power. Otherwise, you'd better be a big fan of distortion and blown speakers. |
Don't put the holes through the hull below waterline.
Just a thought jofra |
"Jofra" wrote in message ... Don't put the holes through the hull below waterline. Just a thought jofra I hope he doesn't put hole through the hull anywhere on the boat for this speaker installation. ;-) |
Might be a good idea to determine what's behind the bulkhead before
drilling and cutting. If you cut the hole accurately, you can use SS wood screws in correctly sized holes to attach them. JR Jay wrote: So I finally found a set of speakers that seemed like a good enough deal and they came in last week. I'm wondering if anyone has any input/experience installing speakers. They aren't flush mount which needs I'll need to be cutting a few holes... some of my curiosity lies in wondering if there's any certain saw blades one should use for cutting fiberglass.... I was going to just drill a few holes to start a hand jig saw... maybe tape up the area with duck tape to avoid scratching.. other than that I didn't really know if there was anything one should take precaution with. Also, though they weigh a couple pounds each, should I worry much about providing some of support to the backing... like a brace to dissipate weight on the fiberglass walls? TIA -j -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth |
Basic physics: take note of the distance sound leaving the rear surface of
the speaker has to travel through the air to reach the front of the speaker. Any sound with a wavelength longer that this distance will cancel itself out as the sound from the front is perfectly out of phase with the sound from the rear. No bass in other words. An enclosure effectively creates an infinite distance from front to rear as the two out of phase sound waves can't get to each other. they are blocked form meeting by the walls of the enclosure. If the enclosure is too small the speaker ends up using up most of its power trying to compress the air inside the enclosure resulting in little low bass as well. So the enclosure has to be both well sealed and big enough to be effective. It is possible to vent an enclosure with a tuned port (often called bass reflex) allowing a smaller enclosure but that isn't simple physics any more... -- Ken Heaton Cape Breton Island, Canada kenheaton AT ess wye dee DOT eastlink DOT ca "Jay" wrote in message ... The birch idea sounds good.. Can't say I gave enclosures much though.. sounds like I need to though. .. .. -j "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Jay" wrote in message ... Sorry, that was a bit uninformative.. They weigh about 2 or 3 pounds/piece. They didn't come with back braces, and they would probably mount ok... my concern is the shock of slamming over wakes over time, cracking the perimeter... Get yourself a piece of 3/4" birch ply. Cut a square for each speaker, about 2" bigger than the speaker. Cut your holes in the fiberglass. Make them perfect. Put the birch ply behind the holes you've made, trace the holes onto the plywood, and cut holes in that, too. Actually, do that ***BEFORE*** you've cut it into squares. The big piece of ply will be easier to clamp to a work surface than the smaller squares. Mount the speakers with the wooden squares as bracing from behind. One thing you didn't mention: What will be the enclosure BEHIND the speakers? For any speaker, there's a very small range of correct enclosure size. Get far from that range and the speaker becomes all but useless in terms of bass response. Trying to get decent bass by dicking around with tone controls will just overdrive your radio or amplifier, and blow up your speakers in short order. Hint: In even the quietest cars, you need about 75 ***CLEAN*** watts per channel to overcome road noise. If you intend to run this stereo in a boat while the engine's running, you need about twice that much power. Otherwise, you'd better be a big fan of distortion and blown speakers. |
Ken Heaton wrote:
Basic physics: take note of the distance sound leaving the rear surface of the speaker has to travel through the air to reach the front of the speaker. Any sound with a wavelength longer that this distance will cancel itself out as the sound from the front is perfectly out of phase with the sound from the rear. No bass in other words. An enclosure effectively creates an infinite distance from front to rear as the two out of phase sound waves can't get to each other. they are blocked form meeting by the walls of the enclosure. If the enclosure is too small the speaker ends up using up most of its power trying to compress the air inside the enclosure resulting in little low bass as well. So the enclosure has to be both well sealed and big enough to be effective. It is possible to vent an enclosure with a tuned port (often called bass reflex) allowing a smaller enclosure but that isn't simple physics any more... Good explanation. It also helps to know the wavelengths. Sound travels about 1127 ft/second in air and wavelength = velocity/frequency so... freq. wavelength (Hz) (ft) 20 56 40 28 80 14 |
"-rick-" wrote in message ... Ken Heaton wrote: Basic physics: take note of the distance sound leaving the rear surface of the speaker has to travel through the air to reach the front of the speaker. Any sound with a wavelength longer that this distance will cancel itself out as the sound from the front is perfectly out of phase with the sound from the rear. No bass in other words. An enclosure effectively creates an infinite distance from front to rear as the two out of phase sound waves can't get to each other. they are blocked form meeting by the walls of the enclosure. If the enclosure is too small the speaker ends up using up most of its power trying to compress the air inside the enclosure resulting in little low bass as well. So the enclosure has to be both well sealed and big enough to be effective. It is possible to vent an enclosure with a tuned port (often called bass reflex) allowing a smaller enclosure but that isn't simple physics any more... Good explanation. It also helps to know the wavelengths. Sound travels about 1127 ft/second in air and wavelength = velocity/frequency so... freq. wavelength (Hz) (ft) 20 56 40 28 80 14 All good points. If he can't build a perfect enclosure, a good ballpark figure (at least with my experience) is that most car doors are a "pretty good size" for decent 5" to 6" speakers, assuming they've got at least 10-15 watts of CLEAN power driving them. |
"-rick-" wrote in message ... Ken Heaton wrote: Basic physics: take note of the distance sound leaving the rear surface of the speaker has to travel through the air to reach the front of the speaker. Any sound with a wavelength longer that this distance will cancel itself out as the sound from the front is perfectly out of phase with the sound from the rear. No bass in other words. An enclosure effectively creates an infinite distance from front to rear as the two out of phase sound waves can't get to each other. they are blocked form meeting by the walls of the enclosure. If the enclosure is too small the speaker ends up using up most of its power trying to compress the air inside the enclosure resulting in little low bass as well. So the enclosure has to be both well sealed and big enough to be effective. It is possible to vent an enclosure with a tuned port (often called bass reflex) allowing a smaller enclosure but that isn't simple physics any more... Good explanation. It also helps to know the wavelengths. Sound travels about 1127 ft/second in air and wavelength = velocity/frequency so... freq. wavelength (Hz) (ft) 20 56 40 28 80 14 Holy cow. This ain't rocket science folks. |
"JimH" wrote in message ... "-rick-" wrote in message ... Ken Heaton wrote: Basic physics: take note of the distance sound leaving the rear surface of the speaker has to travel through the air to reach the front of the speaker. Any sound with a wavelength longer that this distance will cancel itself out as the sound from the front is perfectly out of phase with the sound from the rear. No bass in other words. An enclosure effectively creates an infinite distance from front to rear as the two out of phase sound waves can't get to each other. they are blocked form meeting by the walls of the enclosure. If the enclosure is too small the speaker ends up using up most of its power trying to compress the air inside the enclosure resulting in little low bass as well. So the enclosure has to be both well sealed and big enough to be effective. It is possible to vent an enclosure with a tuned port (often called bass reflex) allowing a smaller enclosure but that isn't simple physics any more... Good explanation. It also helps to know the wavelengths. Sound travels about 1127 ft/second in air and wavelength = velocity/frequency so... freq. wavelength (Hz) (ft) 20 56 40 28 80 14 Holy cow. This ain't rocket science folks. Actually, it's *is* science, although it's not always possible to apply it accurately in cars & boats. You just do the best you can, using the rocket science as a guideline. And even if you're building freestanding speaker cabinets for home or stage use, the science assumes a perfect speaker cone which doesn't add color of its own, which is pretty much fiction. Even so, the science works. |
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:24 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote: "JimH" wrote in message ... "-rick-" wrote in message ... Ken Heaton wrote: Basic physics: take note of the distance sound leaving the rear surface of the speaker has to travel through the air to reach the front of the speaker. Any sound with a wavelength longer that this distance will cancel itself out as the sound from the front is perfectly out of phase with the sound from the rear. No bass in other words. An enclosure effectively creates an infinite distance from front to rear as the two out of phase sound waves can't get to each other. they are blocked form meeting by the walls of the enclosure. If the enclosure is too small the speaker ends up using up most of its power trying to compress the air inside the enclosure resulting in little low bass as well. So the enclosure has to be both well sealed and big enough to be effective. It is possible to vent an enclosure with a tuned port (often called bass reflex) allowing a smaller enclosure but that isn't simple physics any more... Good explanation. It also helps to know the wavelengths. Sound travels about 1127 ft/second in air and wavelength = velocity/frequency so... freq. wavelength (Hz) (ft) 20 56 40 28 80 14 Holy cow. This ain't rocket science folks. Actually, it's *is* science, although it's not always possible to apply it accurately in cars & boats. You just do the best you can, using the rocket science as a guideline. And even if you're building freestanding speaker cabinets for home or stage use, the science assumes a perfect speaker cone which doesn't add color of its own, which is pretty much fiction. Even so, the science works. Ahem - cough, cough... :) The science is only a guide. Sound, and fidelity which is a concept that seems to have escaped into the ether these days, is entirely subjective. Being subjective, what may sound good to you will not sound good to me. Having perfect pitch and sensitive hearing, it's one reason I don't attend movie theaters unless I'm dragged kicking and screaming. Later, Tom |
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:24 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "JimH" wrote in message ... "-rick-" wrote in message ... Ken Heaton wrote: Basic physics: take note of the distance sound leaving the rear surface of the speaker has to travel through the air to reach the front of the speaker. Any sound with a wavelength longer that this distance will cancel itself out as the sound from the front is perfectly out of phase with the sound from the rear. No bass in other words. An enclosure effectively creates an infinite distance from front to rear as the two out of phase sound waves can't get to each other. they are blocked form meeting by the walls of the enclosure. If the enclosure is too small the speaker ends up using up most of its power trying to compress the air inside the enclosure resulting in little low bass as well. So the enclosure has to be both well sealed and big enough to be effective. It is possible to vent an enclosure with a tuned port (often called bass reflex) allowing a smaller enclosure but that isn't simple physics any more... Good explanation. It also helps to know the wavelengths. Sound travels about 1127 ft/second in air and wavelength = velocity/frequency so... freq. wavelength (Hz) (ft) 20 56 40 28 80 14 Holy cow. This ain't rocket science folks. Actually, it's *is* science, although it's not always possible to apply it accurately in cars & boats. You just do the best you can, using the rocket science as a guideline. And even if you're building freestanding speaker cabinets for home or stage use, the science assumes a perfect speaker cone which doesn't add color of its own, which is pretty much fiction. Even so, the science works. Ahem - cough, cough... :) The science is only a guide. Sound, and fidelity which is a concept that seems to have escaped into the ether these days, is entirely subjective. Being subjective, what may sound good to you will not sound good to me. Having perfect pitch and sensitive hearing, it's one reason I don't attend movie theaters unless I'm dragged kicking and screaming. Later, Tom Add to that the fact that the guy is installing a $30 pair of speakers in an open cockpit of a boat. ;-) Nope, it ain't rocket science. |
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:55:24 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "JimH" wrote in message ... "-rick-" wrote in message ... Ken Heaton wrote: Basic physics: take note of the distance sound leaving the rear surface of the speaker has to travel through the air to reach the front of the speaker. Any sound with a wavelength longer that this distance will cancel itself out as the sound from the front is perfectly out of phase with the sound from the rear. No bass in other words. An enclosure effectively creates an infinite distance from front to rear as the two out of phase sound waves can't get to each other. they are blocked form meeting by the walls of the enclosure. If the enclosure is too small the speaker ends up using up most of its power trying to compress the air inside the enclosure resulting in little low bass as well. So the enclosure has to be both well sealed and big enough to be effective. It is possible to vent an enclosure with a tuned port (often called bass reflex) allowing a smaller enclosure but that isn't simple physics any more... Good explanation. It also helps to know the wavelengths. Sound travels about 1127 ft/second in air and wavelength = velocity/frequency so... freq. wavelength (Hz) (ft) 20 56 40 28 80 14 Holy cow. This ain't rocket science folks. Actually, it's *is* science, although it's not always possible to apply it accurately in cars & boats. You just do the best you can, using the rocket science as a guideline. And even if you're building freestanding speaker cabinets for home or stage use, the science assumes a perfect speaker cone which doesn't add color of its own, which is pretty much fiction. Even so, the science works. Ahem - cough, cough... :) The science is only a guide. Sound, and fidelity which is a concept that seems to have escaped into the ether these days, is entirely subjective. Being subjective, what may sound good to you will not sound good to me. I agree, for two major, recent reasons: - As good as they are at testing some products, Consumer Reports refuses to acknowledge that "testing" speakers is impossible. A friend of mine who remained in the audio biz after I left says people still get excited about Japanese speakers made of 1/4" plywood, because CR said they were a "best buy". - Any time you read about tests of cell phones, they're focused on network coverage, and phone features that absolutely nobody needs, unless they absolutely no other qualities which recommend them as a worthwhile person. Never any mention of the audio-related design of the phones themselves. So, we have cell phones with noise cancelling systems that play havoc with your voice. But, I disagree about one thing: You can come closer to theoretical perfection with the bass frequencies than you can with higher frequencies. |
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:05:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote: ~~ snippage ~~ But, I disagree about one thing: You can come closer to theoretical perfection with the bass frequencies than you can with higher frequencies. Ok, why? Later, Tom |
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:05:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: ~~ snippage ~~ But, I disagree about one thing: You can come closer to theoretical perfection with the bass frequencies than you can with higher frequencies. Ok, why? Later, Tom I'll get back to you in a little while on this. My phones are ringing. Damned customers don't understand that they're getting in the way of our discussion here. :-) |
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:05:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: ~~ snippage ~~ But, I disagree about one thing: You can come closer to theoretical perfection with the bass frequencies than you can with higher frequencies. Ok, why? Later, Tom I'll get back to you in a little while on this. My phones are ringing. Damned customers don't understand that they're getting in the way of our discussion here. :-) Poster for your shop http://www.despair.com/ap24x30prin.html |
"Jim," wrote in message ... Doug Kanter wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:05:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: ~~ snippage ~~ But, I disagree about one thing: You can come closer to theoretical perfection with the bass frequencies than you can with higher frequencies. Ok, why? Later, Tom I'll get back to you in a little while on this. My phones are ringing. Damned customers don't understand that they're getting in the way of our discussion here. :-) Poster for your shop http://www.despair.com/ap24x30prin.html So that's the problem! I treating them too well! :-) |
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Jim," wrote in message ... Doug Kanter wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:05:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: ~~ snippage ~~ But, I disagree about one thing: You can come closer to theoretical perfection with the bass frequencies than you can with higher frequencies. Ok, why? Later, Tom I'll get back to you in a little while on this. My phones are ringing. Damned customers don't understand that they're getting in the way of our discussion here. :-) Poster for your shop http://www.despair.com/ap24x30prin.html So that's the problem! I treating them too well! :-) Brouse the bunch -- here's one that should fit several GOP posyrtd here http://www.despair.com/flattery.html |
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:05:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: ~~ snippage ~~ But, I disagree about one thing: You can come closer to theoretical perfection with the bass frequencies than you can with higher frequencies. Ok, why? Later, Tom OK, here we go. Think of the following bass-capable instruments playing a series of notes ranging from 40 cycles (open E on an electric bass) to 80 cycles: Electric bass, upright bass, pipe organ, grand piano. Subtract two things from all these notes: The harmonics native to each instrument, and the attack (how the string instruments are plucked, how the keys are struck, which pedals, if any are in use). What you PRETTY MUCH have left is the purest bass tones you can expect to be aware of in music, but not as pure as a tone generator, which is irrelevant anyway because nobody listens to those. Even synthesizers have SOME sort of color added to them when played. OK...maybe Keith Emerson was an exception. With those remaining tones, you can work on a speaker's design until you've PRETTY MUCH eliminated any serious hot spots or dead spots in the speaker's response, short of those created by specifics of the instruments or their users. Without the harmonic overtones, which exist in the mid to high frequencies, the listener notices nothing objectionable if the speaker is correctly designed, just as the listener doesn't notice much directionality in bass notes if the higher frequencies are filtered out. Now, add whatever speakers you choose for reproducing the harmonics and the attack, along with higher instruments and human voices. Do a lousy job with this aspect and you introduce what is MORE noticeable to the human ear: Maybe you add too much mid range, so the higher notes on a bass guitar end up sounding too fat and boomy. Or, you add lousy tweeters and the harmonics of the piano give you a headache. Keep in mind that you've added dubious features to a speaker that was designed to sound perfect at 80 cycles and below. The problem with the mid & high frequencies is that at least for home speakers, the designers have to take into consideration things like separation, which leads to a million different competing approaches. Some designers believe skinny speakers enclosers work best, so the tweeters' output doesn't bounce off too big a flat area. Look at KEF 207s, for instance: http://www.kef.com/kefamerica/produc...207_image.html Their pitch is that they wanted the high frequencies to emanate from a shape most similar to a human head, or the openings of instruments like saxophones & flutes. Doesn't quite match the soundboards of acoustic guitars, violins & cellos, though, does it? Whattya gonna do, though? Unless you design a speaker to reproduce just one instrument, everything is a compromise. Add electric instruments to this question and you have a complete mess. Because every player has a preference with regard to amplifiers, any home speaker design has an ice cube's chance in hell of being physically shaped like whatever amp Clapton might've played at one concert vs another. Was the album made by miking the amp for some of its effects,and mising that with a direct feed to the recorder for the rest? Who knows? Did he play a big, wide Marshall amp for one gig, and a much smaller box at another? At least with non-electric instruments, they're all the same size & shape. A viola is a viola. Visit real audio stores, listen to a dozen decent-to-excellent speakers, and unless the listening room is phuqued up, you'll usually find you're OK with the bass reproduction. It's the higher frequencies that'll have you switching demo disks a million times, trying to decide whether you like the one that reproduces female voice the best, or the one that best handles flutes, high piano notes, guitar, mandolin. |
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:57:52 GMT, "Jim," wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:05:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: ~~ snippage ~~ But, I disagree about one thing: You can come closer to theoretical perfection with the bass frequencies than you can with higher frequencies. Ok, why? I'll get back to you in a little while on this. My phones are ringing. Damned customers don't understand that they're getting in the way of our discussion here. :-) Poster for your shop http://www.despair.com/ap24x30prin.html Before Ma Bell was broken up, my neighbor who worked for Ma Bell had a bumper sticker on his car - "We don't care - we don't have to". The funny thing is, when you drove by the Bell System office in Worcester, 3/4 of the cars had that exact same bumper sticker. Later, Tom |
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:25:45 GMT, "Jim," wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote: "Jim," wrote in message ... Doug Kanter wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message m... On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:05:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: ~~ snippage ~~ But, I disagree about one thing: You can come closer to theoretical perfection with the bass frequencies than you can with higher frequencies. Ok, why? Later, Tom I'll get back to you in a little while on this. My phones are ringing. Damned customers don't understand that they're getting in the way of our discussion here. :-) Poster for your shop http://www.despair.com/ap24x30prin.html So that's the problem! I treating them too well! :-) Brouse the bunch -- here's one that should fit several GOP posyrtd here http://www.despair.com/flattery.html You've never been to a Democrat convention have you? Later, Tom |
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:01:22 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote: ~~ very interesting tech note snipped ~~ Visit real audio stores, listen to a dozen decent-to-excellent speakers, and unless the listening room is phuqued up, you'll usually find you're OK with the bass reproduction. It's the higher frequencies that'll have you switching demo disks a million times, trying to decide whether you like the one that reproduces female voice the best, or the one that best handles flutes, high piano notes, guitar, mandolin. Actually, you'd hit on a rather hot button issue for me. I'm not big on faithfully reproducing bass level sound. Bass level sound is just percussion really even if produced on a string. All the subtle and nuance is in music is not produced at low frequencies but rather at the mid to low high frequencies. You and I agree that it is much easier to faithfully reproduce low frequency sound - I just don't like it. Later, Tom |
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:01:22 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: ~~ very interesting tech note snipped ~~ Visit real audio stores, listen to a dozen decent-to-excellent speakers, and unless the listening room is phuqued up, you'll usually find you're OK with the bass reproduction. It's the higher frequencies that'll have you switching demo disks a million times, trying to decide whether you like the one that reproduces female voice the best, or the one that best handles flutes, high piano notes, guitar, mandolin. Actually, you'd hit on a rather hot button issue for me. I'm not big on faithfully reproducing bass level sound. Bass level sound is just percussion really even if produced on a string. All the subtle and nuance is in music is not produced at low frequencies but rather at the mid to low high frequencies. You and I agree that it is much easier to faithfully reproduce low frequency sound - I just don't like it. Later, Tom Tom....you've gone mad. Have you ever listened to the bass work of Phil Lesh or Jack Casady on a REAL stereo, with no other noise going on in the house? 20-odd years ago, these guys and their bands financed a little company called Alembic, specifically to give them instruments which sounded as crystal-clear as pianos. Amazing, and PLENTY of mid range. |
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:47:20 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:01:22 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: ~~ very interesting tech note snipped ~~ Visit real audio stores, listen to a dozen decent-to-excellent speakers, and unless the listening room is phuqued up, you'll usually find you're OK with the bass reproduction. It's the higher frequencies that'll have you switching demo disks a million times, trying to decide whether you like the one that reproduces female voice the best, or the one that best handles flutes, high piano notes, guitar, mandolin. Actually, you'd hit on a rather hot button issue for me. I'm not big on faithfully reproducing bass level sound. Bass level sound is just percussion really even if produced on a string. All the subtle and nuance is in music is not produced at low frequencies but rather at the mid to low high frequencies. You and I agree that it is much easier to faithfully reproduce low frequency sound - I just don't like it. Tom....you've gone mad. Why yes - yes I have. Thank you for noticing. Have you ever listened to the bass work of Phil Lesh or Jack Casady on a REAL stereo, with no other noise going on in the house? Of course I have. Of course, then I don't have a "real" stereo what with the bi-amped Mac 50's to Bozak Concert Grands passed through a PAT-4 pre-amp - I suppose I should improve my stereo somewhat. 20-odd years ago, these guys and their bands financed a little company called Alembic, specifically to give them instruments which sounded as crystal-clear as pianos. Amazing, and PLENTY of mid range. Can't change my opinion - nope, can't. Uh - uh - never. :) Later, Tom |
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:47:20 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message . .. On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:01:22 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: ~~ very interesting tech note snipped ~~ Visit real audio stores, listen to a dozen decent-to-excellent speakers, and unless the listening room is phuqued up, you'll usually find you're OK with the bass reproduction. It's the higher frequencies that'll have you switching demo disks a million times, trying to decide whether you like the one that reproduces female voice the best, or the one that best handles flutes, high piano notes, guitar, mandolin. Actually, you'd hit on a rather hot button issue for me. I'm not big on faithfully reproducing bass level sound. Bass level sound is just percussion really even if produced on a string. All the subtle and nuance is in music is not produced at low frequencies but rather at the mid to low high frequencies. You and I agree that it is much easier to faithfully reproduce low frequency sound - I just don't like it. Tom....you've gone mad. Why yes - yes I have. Thank you for noticing. ****. Sorry...now everybody knows. :-) Have you ever listened to the bass work of Phil Lesh or Jack Casady on a REAL stereo, with no other noise going on in the house? Of course I have. Of course, then I don't have a "real" stereo what with the bi-amped Mac 50's to Bozak Concert Grands passed through a PAT-4 pre-amp - I suppose I should improve my stereo somewhat. Well, that's what I meant! 20-odd years ago, these guys and their bands financed a little company called Alembic, specifically to give them instruments which sounded as crystal-clear as pianos. Amazing, and PLENTY of mid range. Can't change my opinion - nope, can't. Uh - uh - never. :) Later, Tom |
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:01:22 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: ~~ very interesting tech note snipped ~~ Visit real audio stores, listen to a dozen decent-to-excellent speakers, and unless the listening room is phuqued up, you'll usually find you're OK with the bass reproduction. It's the higher frequencies that'll have you switching demo disks a million times, trying to decide whether you like the one that reproduces female voice the best, or the one that best handles flutes, high piano notes, guitar, mandolin. Actually, you'd hit on a rather hot button issue for me. I'm not big on faithfully reproducing bass level sound. Bass level sound is just percussion really even if produced on a string. All the subtle and nuance is in music is not produced at low frequencies but rather at the mid to low high frequencies. You and I agree that it is much easier to faithfully reproduce low frequency sound - I just don't like it. Later, Tom Suggest you catch this months Playboy Adviser. Supposedly the Clitoris of a 150 pound female will respond to 33 cycles -- as the weight goes up, so does the frequency. |
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
Ahem - cough, cough... :) The science is only a guide. Sound, and fidelity which is a concept that seems to have escaped into the ether these days, is entirely subjective. Being subjective, what may sound good to you will not sound good to me. I take your point but you go too far in that it's not "entirely subjective". 20% distortion will sound less accurate than .01%. As an electric guitar player I understand that some kinds of distortion are more pleasing than others in sound creation but you weren't discussing violins or guitar amps. In sound reproduction accuracy is the goal. Todays instruments can measure the audible spectrum well beyond what human ears can discern in amplitude, frequency, or phase. -rick- |
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