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Captain legal question
Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a
charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is not in this business anyway. Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be documented, etc. to do this annually? Capt. Jeff |
I remember when the Coast Guard was going around and stopping yachts
in New York Harbor. They would board and ask the guests if they had brought any lunch or beer. The guest would say, "Of course we brought something. We are polite and civil people and would never accept an invitation with out bringing something." The guys (this was before there were many gals) would then say, "Ah ha! Compensation. Owner busted, trip over, return to the dock immediately." I think it took some congressmen to get this foolishness stopped. I also saw the Coast Guard prevent a ship sailing to Bermuda because they claimed there was no way to prevent the guests from giving money to the owner in the future or proving that they hadn't already. Since there was the potential for compensation, it was passenger carrying without a license. Obviously, there was something else going on in these cases. If the Coast Guard wants to shut you down for some reason, a passenger is anyone they say is a passenger until you spend thousands of dollars and years in court proving otherwise. The only way to clearly prove otherwise to pay them as crew and have all the records in order and ready to produce. The best thing to do is go into the MSO and discuss exactly what you want to do. Same thing with your insurance company. The FAA for some reason is much more reasonable about these things than the Coast Guard. -- Roger Long "Tamaroak" wrote in message ... Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is not in this business anyway. Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be documented, etc. to do this annually? Capt. Jeff |
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:56:56 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote: Tamaroak wrote: Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is not in this business anyway. Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be documented, etc. to do this annually? Capt. Jeff This doesn't really answer your question, but, no matter what the "law" says, or how it might be "fairly" interpreted, you can bet your last fish hook that if there is a mishap, the captain will be sued, and if he isn't "documented" and insured up to the hilt, he soon will be boatless, carless, houseless and, worst of all, baitless. Krause, you're a ****ing liar. John H On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD, on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! "Divide each difficulty into as many parts as is feasible and necessary to resolve it." Rene Descartes |
" Tuuuk" slobbered and babbled..... snip... Why don't you dig out the blender and mix yourself a Draino cocktail....drink it slowly.. It just might clean out all the crap lodged in your crevices. |
You are acting as an agent for the charity.
If money changes hands, either to you or to your "contract employer," somebody could make a case that you were acting in a professional capacity. It's at least a gray area. I'd think that to be free of potential problems there would need to be an arm's length relationship between you and the charity- and no particular connection to the amount your invited guests donated or even *whether* they donated to the charity. Maybe a situation where you call your friend at the charity, invite him/her for a boatride, and suggest they could bring along a half dozen friends of their own if they wanted to. If the charity then, and without your knowledge, dangles the invite in front of some potential donors that is not your problem....exactly. But somebody could still try to make it so. A lot of the recreational boaters running out to get their OUPV or 100-ton papers might do well to pause and consider that if anything happens on their boat that means they will be defending themselves in civil court, the complainant's attorney will make a big deal in front of the jury about how a "licensed captain" should have known better than to do whatever stupid thing caused the problem in the first place. Heck of a price to pay for the ego zing of being "Captain" so and so. If a boater doesn't earn his/her living running a boat, why mess with the headache of being licensed? The other thing that leaves a defendent additionally looking bad in front of a civil jury would be a thorough examination of the "sea service" claims made by the recreational boater to sit for the license in the first place. It's well known that a good many applicants lie, some of them a lot, and the CG has no reliable method of vetting sea service claims. "If Captain Zero lied about his sea service, why should we believe he's being truthful now?" |
In the "old days" if the passenger contributed anything, even brought
lunch for the owner, or a "gift for the boat" he became a "passenger for hire" and a professional license (6-pak or Master's) was required. That requirement was loosened a bit to allow for sharing of expenses. Now a guest can make a "voluntary contribution" in the form of money, food or fuel. But the word "voluntary" is key - The basic test whether the passengers would have been carried if they hadn't paid. Thus, I think the "charity auction" fails test and will be considered "passengers for hire." This was covered in a CG Circular 12 years ago - I think its still appropriate: http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/nvic/7_94/n7-94.htm Here's part of it: NAVIGATION AND VESSEL INSPECTION CIRCULAR NO. 7-94 Subj: GUIDANCE ON THE PASSENGER VESSEL SAFETY ACT OF 1993 SEC. 506. PASSENGER FOR HIRE. Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (21) and (22) a new paragraph (21a) to read as follows: "(21a) 'passenger for hire' means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.". DESCRIPTION - The determination of what constitutes the carriage of a "passenger for hire" must be made on a case by case basis. This determination is dependent upon the actual operation of a vessel and the flow of consideration as determined by the facts of each case. In general, there needs to be some form of tangible consideration or promise of performance being passed for a "passenger for hire" situation to exist. SEC. 507. CONSIDERATION. Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (5) and (6) a new paragraph (5a) to read as follows: "(5a) 'consideration' means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.". DESCRIPTION - Section 507 amends 46 U.S.C. 2101 by adding a definition of the term "consideration." Although this term was used in the prior definition of a "passenger," it was not previously defined by statute. Generally, some tangible amount of worth exchanged for carriage on a vessel such as payment, exchange of goods or a promise of performance is required. "Consideration" does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of a voyage. Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes is not included as exchange of consideration. Tamaroak wrote: Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is not in this business anyway. Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be documented, etc. to do this annually? Capt. Jeff |
Hi Jeff,
I think this is very much as someone else described as a "grey area". Several years ago I was asked to offer my services for this exact same type of situation, and I agreed to do it, but both I and the vessel were fully covered and performed as if we were paid. I think it really boils down to this: as a licensed master, you are held to a higher level of expectation of professionalism, and you can be persued no matter what the laws may be. Keep in mind that there are several laws that can apply, besides Federal law, there's Maritime law and Civil law. Think about the "worst case scenario", where a passenger is seriously injured or worse. Who will be held accountable? Who will pay the medical bills? Who will protect you from civil lawsuit? Being a licensed Master is a very risky business, and I wouldn't take any shortcuts. I am not a lawyer, just a fellow mariner who wants to keep his license ;-) -- Paul =-----------------------------------= renewontime dot com FREE email reminder service for licensed mariners http://www.renewontime.com =-----------------------------------= |
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:47:46 -0600, Tamaroak
wrote: Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is not in this business anyway. Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be documented, etc. to do this annually? Capt. Jeff I would expect that if there is no valuable consideration to the master, he is not chartered. I know the situations are not identical, but in light aircraft, I and many other private pilots have provided rides for boy scouts and other youth organizations. One expects to be persued regardless, if one commits some breach of reasonable care in the circumstance, all the same. Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
If you still plan on donating a boat trip, one thing to keep in mind is to
clearly state what this boat trip will consist of, how many passengers, etc. I've made such a donation twice to a charity in a fairly small community. The first time couldn't have gone better, made some new friends, but the second got a little strange. I realised that some bidders can get the notion, at least later, that the more they bid for something loosly defined, the more they should get. There's no question when it is a TV or bicycle being bid on. "Tamaroak" wrote in message ... Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is not in this business anyway. Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be documented, etc. to do this annually? Capt. Jeff |
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:27:32 GMT, "Roger Long" wrote: If the poster has a "Captain's License" he can accept money as long as there are 6 or less "paying" passengers. If I pick out the words, "licensed master" and accept them literally, your boat had better be duly *Inspected*. The boat does not have to be an inspected vessel for a charter. If the boarding officer has an attitude, you'd be better off to have your documentation on board.... License, Drug Test, etc.... (although if you argued that would be an admission of for-pay intent, I'd have to concede.) Licence only, not drug test card or CPR Best bet is to get "permission" since this outing is really up to interpretation, whether specifically mentioned in the law or not. Roger offered excellent advice.... get prior interpretation of how the law will be enforced from the MSO. And Harry is right, too. "...if there is a mishap, the captain will be sued, and if he isn't "documented" and insured up to the hilt, he soon will be boatless, carless, houseless and, worst of all, baitless. Harry is wrong again, but... |
We're getting off topic here, but let me try to clear up a few points. I'll
try to keep it simple, but if you want more detail, I'd recommend you look them up in the pertinent CFR (Code of Federal Regulations). If you are a licensed Master, you should already be familiar with the CFR's. I'm assuming we're talking about the US, BTW: If the poster has a "Captain's License" he can accept money as long as there are 6 or less "paying" passengers. If I pick out the words, "licensed master" and accept them literally, your boat had better be duly *Inspected*. The boat does not have to be an inspected vessel for a charter. I'm assuming we're talking about smaller vessels here, so basically there are both "inspected" and "uninspected" vessels. Again, the regulations and definitions are fairly lengthy and covered in the CFR's, but roughly speaking: "uninspected" vessels may carry up to 6 passengers and inspected vessels may carry as many passengers as their "Certificate of Inspection" (COI) stipulates. I've driven uninspected vessels that were over 100' in length (so could carry no more than 6 passengers), inspected vessels under 30' that were able to carry 20 passengers and a 99 ton inspected vessel that could carry up to 1,200 passengers. Incidently, don't confuse a vessel inspection with the USCG Aux. "voluntary safety inspection". These are two completely different things. A vessel is "inspected" before being put into service (a very involved process), is issued a COI, and then is re-inspected every year. As far as licenses go (again, I'm just speaking in rough terms) there is a "Masters" license and then there is a "OUPV" (Operator, Uninspected Passenger Vessel) license. The Master's license will stipulate the tonnage and class of vessel as well as the waters to be operated in. For example, a typical charter captain's license might be a "Master, limited to vessels 100 gross tons or less, near coastal waters with sailing and towing endorsements". An "OUPV" license limits the operator to carrying no more than 6 passengers on an uninspected vessel, this is what is commonly referred to as a "six pack" license. If the boarding officer has an attitude, you'd be better off to have your documentation on board.... License, Drug Test, etc.... (although if you argued that would be an admission of for-pay intent, I'd have to concede.) Licence only, not drug test card or CPR Well, no. If you hold a current Master's or OUPV license, you must also be enrolled in a urinalysis program, whether you are working or not. In my experience, a USCG boarding is usually a very rare occurance, and usually happens in response to an accident, complaint or tip (sometimes a disgruntle -ex- employee). The first thing the boarding officer did was inspect all your licenses, endorsements and certificates (and you better have your original license with you, -not- a copy!). The second thing he did was ordered a urinalysis for every licensed person on the vessel. If anything was not in order, it ended up in his report. I hope to never find out what happens next if something ends up in his report ;-) Incidentally, if you are a licensed mariner and aren't enrolled in a urinalysis program through your employer, you can join an organization like the "American Professional Captain's Association" (which I'm a member of) and for about $39 a year, you'll be enrolled in their program. While you're at it, you can also sign up for our free email reminder service. That way you'll never forget to renew your license, endorsements, urinalysis, CPR or anything else. You'd be surprised how many students I've had come in to re-take a captain's or radar course because they missed their expiration date by a day or two... -- Paul =-----------------------------------= renewontime dot com FREE email reminder service for licensed mariners http://www.renewontime.com =-----------------------------------= |
I'm the original poster and do have a 50T Master's ticket, but am not
doing drug testing, nor does my craft have insurance for charters. This is an uninspected boat and I'm aware of all of the six-pac issue, but I don't think any of these apply to the situation I'm asking about. If I do this trip, I will not obtain any type of consideration, "directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel." as it's stated in the CFR. I am also not in any way connected financially to the charity. Think of doing this for Habit for Humanity or the Salvation Army or a church or something like that. I don't believe this type of boat trip requires any license whatsoever for that reason. Capt. Jeff |
Roger Long wrote: ....snip... The FAA for some reason is much more reasonable about these things than the Coast Guard. Not in my experience, FWIW. Frank |
If I do this trip, I will not obtain any type of consideration, "directly
or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel." as it's stated in the CFR. I am also not in any way connected financially to the charity. Think of doing this for Habit for Humanity or the Salvation I don't believe this type of boat trip requires any license whatsoever for that reason. Hi Jeff, I don't want to belabor the point, as it seems you've pretty much decided to do this job, but I think you're missing the point. It's not necessarily whether you are being paid or not, it's whether your passengers are paying for a ride on a boat and what assurances they are therefore entitled to. Even if they haven't paid a red cent, your passengers are still entitled to certain expectations, and if something should go wrong as a licensed master, you will be held to a higher level of scrutiny. In my opinion (and I don't think I'm alone) you are exposing yourself to a very high level of risk. But that is your option, and I wish you luck. I've always erred on the side of caution. Consequently, I turn down nearly as much work as I take on. I'm sure I'd have more money in the bank if I took more chances, but I sleep better at night! All the best, -- Paul =-----------------------------------= renewontime dot com FREE email reminder service for licensed mariners http://www.renewontime.com =-----------------------------------= |
Well...Yes. As I responded to the original post, you do not need your drug
test card with you if you are stopped. You do have to have a current drug test or be enrolled in a CG certified random testing program. ( I also am in APCA's program) but to the statement that you must be carrying it with you is false. You also must have current CPR, but do not have to carry the documentation with you. All you must have in your posession if checked is your orioginal license with endorsements. "renewontime dot com" wrote in message If the boarding officer has an attitude, you'd be better off to have your documentation on board.... License, Drug Test, etc.... (although if you argued that would be an admission of for-pay intent, I'd have to concede.) Licence only, not drug test card or CPR Well, no. If you hold a current Master's or OUPV license, you must also be enrolled in a urinalysis program, whether you are working or not. In my experience, a USCG boarding is usually a very rare occurance, and usually happens in response to an accident, complaint or tip (sometimes a disgruntle -ex- employee). The first thing the boarding officer did was inspect all your licenses, endorsements and certificates (and you better have your original license with you, -not- a copy!). The second thing he did was ordered a urinalysis for every licensed person on the vessel. If anything was not in order, it ended up in his report. I hope to never find out what happens next if something ends up in his report ;-) Incidentally, if you are a licensed mariner and aren't enrolled in a urinalysis program through your employer, you can join an organization like the "American Professional Captain's Association" (which I'm a member of) and for about $39 a year, you'll be enrolled in their program. While you're at it, you can also sign up for our free email reminder service. That way you'll never forget to renew your license, endorsements, urinalysis, CPR or anything else. You'd be surprised how many students I've had come in to re-take a captain's or radar course because they missed their expiration date by a day or two... -- Paul =-----------------------------------= renewontime dot com FREE email reminder service for licensed mariners http://www.renewontime.com =-----------------------------------= |
I should have said FAA regulations. They do explicitly spell out how
you can share expenses on a flight and how charity flights can be conducted. As in any regulatory system, you will always have your over-the-top interpretations by individuals. -- Roger Long "Frank" wrote in message ups.com... Roger Long wrote: ...snip... The FAA for some reason is much more reasonable about these things than the Coast Guard. Not in my experience, FWIW. Frank |
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:47:46 -0600, Tamaroak
wrote: Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is not in this business anyway. Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be documented, etc. to do this annually? In this case, you are acting as an agent for the charity and thus are held to the same standard as you would for a paying client. Net result is that while you are not receiving direct compensation, you are acting as a professional with all the attendant problem and possibilities of same. If something happened, you would still be responsible in your capacity as a licensed Captain. It's as simple as that. Later, Tom |
Paul, I have been told that a person could captain any size boat he'd want to provided there is no commercial interest. In other words if a person could afford a 150' boat he wouldn't be required to have a Captains license or hire a Captain to pilot the vessel. Is this correct? Paul renewontime dot com wrote: snipped Hi Jeff, I don't want to belabor the point, as it seems you've pretty much decided to do this job, but I think you're missing the point. It's not necessarily whether you are being paid or not, it's whether your passengers are paying for a ride on a boat and what assurances they are therefore entitled to. Even if they haven't paid a red cent, your passengers are still entitled to certain expectations, and if something should go wrong as a licensed master, you will be held to a higher level of scrutiny. In my opinion (and I don't think I'm alone) you are exposing yourself to a very high level of risk. But that is your option, and I wish you luck. I've always erred on the side of caution. Consequently, I turn down nearly as much work as I take on. I'm sure I'd have more money in the bank if I took more chances, but I sleep better at night! All the best, |
Paul Schilter wrote:
I have been told that a person could captain any size boat he'd want to provided there is no commercial interest. In other words if a person could afford a 150' boat he wouldn't be required to have a Captains license or hire a Captain to pilot the vessel. Is this correct? Yes and no...he can buy it, and he can run it. But unless he can prove that he's acquired to skills to do so, he prob'ly won't be able to insure it, or even get liability insurance to cover him on it. Someone recently posted on a board I visit that they wanted to move up from a 24' to 50-something...every insurance company he talked to told him he'd have to have a licensed captain onboard for at least a full year and then be able to prove that he was competent to handle it himself after that before they'd continue the insurance without a licensed captain. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 |
I have been told that a person could captain any size boat he'd want to
provided there is no commercial interest. In other words if a person could afford a 150' boat he wouldn't be required to have a Captains license or hire a Captain to pilot the vessel. Is this correct? Paul Ok, we're talking "in the US" here, as every country is different: There's a bit more to it than that. Vessels are categorized by their intended purpose, tonnage, waters to be operated, etc. and certain vessels will require a licensed master no matter their size. But, as far as I know, you are essentially right: if you wanted to purchase a 150 foot private yacht and drive it yourself, there are no laws or regulations requiring that you carry a license or a licensed master, so long as the vessel is only used as a private yacht. In fact, there are alot of private yachts over 100' out there, and if an owner wanted to hire you to drive it, you wouldn't need a license to do so. Likewise, a license is not required (by law at least) to deliver yachts. I think this is where a lot of people get confused: It's not necessarilly whether you are paid to drive the boat, it's if you have passengers aboard who have paid to ride, thus the common expression "Passengers for Hire". The reality is this, even though the law may not require a delivery captain to have a license, if you don't have a license, you'll have a darn hard time getting work as a delivery captain. Likewise, although you may be able to afford to buy a 150' yacht, if you don't have a licensed captain aboard, you may have a very hard time insuring it. Let me just conclude by adding this: I'm not a lawyer, nor am I an expert on Federal law. I'm just a licensed mariner that is doing his best to stay within the law and protect myself and familly from "unreasonable risk". There are lots of grey areas in this business, and I've always tried to steer clear of anything that might later bite me, and I've always recommended that others do the same. All the best, -- Paul =-----------------------------------= renewontime dot com FREE email reminder service for licensed mariners http://www.renewontime.com =-----------------------------------= |
Paul,
Well that's interesting! I was under the impression that if I was getting paid to drive a boat I'd need the license. Thanks for that information. I figured correctly on the other part and as Peggie pointed out the insurance would be the show stopper, at least for a prudent person. If someone was rich enough and stupid enough I guess they don't have to get insurance. I don't think insurance is required as it is on a car as far as I know. But thanks for making that clarification. Paul renewontime dot com wrote: I have been told that a person could captain any size boat he'd want to provided there is no commercial interest. In other words if a person could afford a 150' boat he wouldn't be required to have a Captains license or hire a Captain to pilot the vessel. Is this correct? Paul Ok, we're talking "in the US" here, as every country is different: There's a bit more to it than that. Vessels are categorized by their intended purpose, tonnage, waters to be operated, etc. and certain vessels will require a licensed master no matter their size. But, as far as I know, you are essentially right: if you wanted to purchase a 150 foot private yacht and drive it yourself, there are no laws or regulations requiring that you carry a license or a licensed master, so long as the vessel is only used as a private yacht. In fact, there are alot of private yachts over 100' out there, and if an owner wanted to hire you to drive it, you wouldn't need a license to do so. Likewise, a license is not required (by law at least) to deliver yachts. I think this is where a lot of people get confused: It's not necessarilly whether you are paid to drive the boat, it's if you have passengers aboard who have paid to ride, thus the common expression "Passengers for Hire". The reality is this, even though the law may not require a delivery captain to have a license, if you don't have a license, you'll have a darn hard time getting work as a delivery captain. Likewise, although you may be able to afford to buy a 150' yacht, if you don't have a licensed captain aboard, you may have a very hard time insuring it. Let me just conclude by adding this: I'm not a lawyer, nor am I an expert on Federal law. I'm just a licensed mariner that is doing his best to stay within the law and protect myself and familly from "unreasonable risk". There are lots of grey areas in this business, and I've always tried to steer clear of anything that might later bite me, and I've always recommended that others do the same. All the best, |
Paul Schilter wrote:
Paul, I have been told that a person could captain any size boat he'd want to provided there is no commercial interest. In other words if a person could afford a 150' boat he wouldn't be required to have a Captains license or hire a Captain to pilot the vessel. Is this correct? Paul In .uk at least, and probably in most of the civilised world, you need a qualified master on anything over 23 metres long. The manning and qualifications required increase with length and weight. -- My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently deleted. Send only plain text. |
Paul Schilter wrote: Paul, Well that's interesting! I was under the impression that if I was getting paid to drive a boat I'd need the license. Thanks for that information. I figured correctly on the other part and as Peggie pointed out the insurance would be the show stopper, at least for a prudent person. If someone was rich enough and stupid enough I guess they don't have to get insurance. I don't think insurance is required as it is on a car as far as I know. But thanks for making that clarification. Paul Its not at all unusual for people with significant net worth to "self-insure". A lot of companies do that as well. Insurance companies are primarily for people who can't afford to take the loss should it happen. If you are willing to lose the boat without crying over it, and are financially able to take care of any damage you might cause to others property, you don't need insurance. YMMV, Don W. |
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:34:22 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:16:49 GMT, Brian Whatcott wrote: On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:47:46 -0600, Tamaroak wrote: Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is not in this business anyway. Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be documented, etc. to do this annually? Capt. Jeff I would expect that if there is no valuable consideration to the master, he is not chartered. I know the situations are not identical, but in light aircraft, I and many other private pilots have provided rides for boy scouts and other youth organizations. One expects to be persued regardless, if one commits some breach of reasonable care in the circumstance, all the same. Brian Whatcott Altus OK Brian, USCG Captains do not, to my knowledge, have the documented protection afforded to them as Private Pilots do via FAR 61.113..... without clear regulatory guidance, the safest course would be to pose this to the local MSO (perhaps in writing) and act accordingly.... I hear you Brian W |
Capt. Jeff wrote:
Let's say a licensed master decides to offer to donate a boat ride to a charitable organization's service auction. This group gets the money when someone pays for the ride, the buyer gets the boat ride, the captain gets nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for contributing to the charity. This is clearly not a part of any business, and the captain is not in this business anyway. Has the captain received compensation for this according to USCG regulations? Does this mean s/he needs chartering insurance, has to be documented, etc. to do this annually? Capt. Jeff ================================= This is interesting. A few years ago, I did pretty much exactly what you are describing here. My wife was involved in a charity auction and had nothing to donate, so I suggested that I take a couple guys out for a day of fishing on my boat. She made up a picnic lunch for everyone on board. Since the money was paid directly to the charity, I never gave any thought to the fact that I may be considered a "charter boat skipper". We had a nice day and no problems and I forgot all about it. But, this info makes me wonder if I was putting myself at risk... Happy boatshows, Norm |
In article ,
Paul Schilter wrote: Paul, I have been told that a person could captain any size boat he'd want to provided there is no commercial interest. In other words if a person could afford a 150' boat he wouldn't be required to have a Captains license or hire a Captain to pilot the vessel. Is this correct? Paul renewontime dot com wrote: snipped I an not absolutly sure, but I believe in the US the Maximum Gross Weight for unlicensed Operators is 200 Tons. Anything over that requires both a Licensed Master and Chief Engineer, minimum and that changes as the Tonnage increases. I know that these mminimums are true for commercial vessels, but I am not sure for non-commercial vessels. Me |
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Don W wrote:
Its not at all unusual for people with significant net worth to "self-insure". A lot of companies do that as well. It's not unusual for them to "self-drive" onto the rocks, either! I see or hear of such an incident with a multi-million dollar boat every summer. Sorry, couldn't resist that one... Insurance companies are primarily for people who can't afford to take the loss should it happen. If you are willing to lose the boat without crying over it, and are financially able to take care of any damage you might cause to others property, you don't need insurance. In principle this is true, but the fact is there are not many people financially prepared for such incidents. Besides property damage, you have to consider personal injury, legal bills, environmental cleanup costs, etc. Even with all the $0.5-2M boats out there, which seem mainstream nowadays, the people willing and able to expose themselves to this kind of liability are vanishingly few. People with that kind of money have a lot more to lose, too, and/or a lot more to sue for. Matt O. |
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