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Hours, hours, hours
I know that this is a really, really broad question about engine hours
(that is below), but since I'm new here, I'll naively ask it anyway. Having been a life-long sailor, I now have 4 kids and am in the power boat mode. So, I am searching for a nice 1960's wooden cabin cruiser in the 33'-38' foot range. Give or take a little if it's the right boat. I don't want to spend a ton of money, either. Let's say my budget is $12,000-$20,000. I have seen a wide variety of these boats on the internet in a wide variety of conditions. What I am interested in is a good, reliable boat that I can take the family on weekend outings in the San Joaquin delta or maybe SF Bay. The boat doesn't have too look factory new, but I don't want it to look like its on its last legs either. Just solid and presentable. I've been around boats all of my life and I don't mind quaint, 40 year old ways of doing things. That's part of the charm. So here's the question: what is a reasonable number of hours that one can expect from average type use on one of this type of boats? (see, I told you it was a broad question). Let's say a typical family owwner who doesn't push the boat that hard that often and uses it a reasonable amount each year. With typical maintenance what's reasonable? I see boats with 300 hours (good) and 1,600 hours (bad?) and I've read somewhere that about 1,000 is typical (that's about 60,000 miles in auto speak if I drive 60 mph and get to 1,000 hours. What can I use as a guide? Thanks! |
You'll want to do a mechanical survey or engine inspection on any used
boat. It could be a mistake to assume that any gas engine with just a few hundred hours on it must be in good mechanical condition. It doesn't take too many hundred hours of neglect and abuse to destroy an engine. It could also be a mistake to just write off boats with over 1000 hours as unworthy of inspection or consideration. The guys who really take special care of gas engines, and have a moderate amount of good luck, often manage to get 2000 hours service before major overhaul or replacement.......but not always. You'll hear of cases where the engine lasted a good deal longer, but the reason those stories make the rounds is because that sort of longevity is atypical. Once past 1200-1500 hours, most people begin to consider a gas engine thoroughly used, if not used up. Hopefully, the seller of the boat will have priced the vessel accordingly. In the end, the only variable that matters is the shape of the engine in the boat that *you* want to buy, and that can't be determined by hours alone. Just don't pay a premium price for a gas engine boat with hours in the middle teens, even if it is running OK when you buy it. Nobody expects a 65 year old man that the doctor pronounces "in perfect health" to outlive a 35 year old receiving the same evaluation. :-) |
Get a copy of "Wooden Boat" you might find the boat of your dreams on the
last page marked for "free boats"... or then, you might get a lifetime of trouble, too. -- RichG manager, Carolina Skiff Owners Group on MSN http://groups.msn.com/CarolinaSkiffOwners |
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wrote in message ups.com... You'll want to do a mechanical survey or engine inspection on any used boat. It could be a mistake to assume that any gas engine with just a few hundred hours on it must be in good mechanical condition. It doesn't take too many hundred hours of neglect and abuse to destroy an engine. It could also be a mistake to just write off boats with over 1000 hours as unworthy of inspection or consideration. The guys who really take special care of gas engines, and have a moderate amount of good luck, often manage to get 2000 hours service before major overhaul or replacement.......but not always. You'll hear of cases where the engine lasted a good deal longer, but the reason those stories make the rounds is because that sort of longevity is atypical. Once past 1200-1500 hours, most people begin to consider a gas engine thoroughly used, if not used up. Hopefully, the seller of the boat will have priced the vessel accordingly. In the end, the only variable that matters is the shape of the engine in the boat that *you* want to buy, and that can't be determined by hours alone. Just don't pay a premium price for a gas engine boat with hours in the middle teens, even if it is running OK when you buy it. Nobody expects a 65 year old man that the doctor pronounces "in perfect health" to outlive a 35 year old receiving the same evaluation. :-) Good advice from Chuck. Take a ride up the delta and check out the marina's. Especially Bethel Island. I see lots of dock queens with for sale signs in a lot of the marina's. They have been tied up a long time, so the price may be a lot less than the 10K and you can repower and be in less than $13k. |
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On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 02:22:36 +0000, Chris Newport
wrote: A petrol (US gasoline) engine will probably have a usefull life of a few thousand hours, OTOH decent diesels such as CAT or Volvo should be good for between 10,000 and 20,000 hours because they are designed for heavy truck duty. =========================================== With all due respect, that is wildly optimistic. Gas engines that make it to 2,000 hours with out a major rebuild are the exception not the rule. Some do, but not very many, probably under 20%. More than 50% last less than 1200 hours or so in marine service. I have a 24 ft I/O with a 1978 5.7L Chevy still going strong with countless hours but it has been rebuilt piece-by-piece, some pieces more than once. Marine diesels that make it past 4 or 5 thousand hours with out a major overhaul are also the exception. Many last far less depending on maintenance and usage. |
A petrol (US gasoline) engine will probably have a usefull
life of a few thousand hours, OTOH decent diesels such as CAT or Volvo should be good for between 10,000 and 20,000 hours because they are designed for heavy truck duty. Dream on. The only way to realize 10,000 - 20,000 or even many more hours from a marine diesel would be to run it almost continuously. The average intermittent use pleasure boater will be very lucky to get 5,000 hours from a diesel, and even then it will need to be one of the slower turning models. You even find some old trawlers with hours up in the 6-7K range, but 10,000 or more is almost unheard of. Cripes, it would take the average pleasure boater 50-100 years to do 10,000 hours and by that time the darn thing would simply rust apart. :-) |
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wrote in message oups.com... Dream on. The only way to realize 10,000 - 20,000 or even many more hours from a marine diesel would be to run it almost continuously. The average intermittent use pleasure boater will be very lucky to get 5,000 hours from a diesel, and even then it will need to be one of the slower turning models. You even find some old trawlers with hours up in the 6-7K range, but 10,000 or more is almost unheard of. Cripes, it would take the average pleasure boater 50-100 years to do 10,000 hours and by that time the darn thing would simply rust apart. :-) Chuck, I realize your post is related to the boating time required to acquire over 10,000 engine hours but, in terms of engine longevity, you might be interested in the following email response I received from Bob Smith at American Diesel Corp. American Diesel sells replacement engines and components and owns the inventory and intellectual property of the former Leyman Ford. I had posed a question regarding service life of the Leyman Ford, 120 hp diesel in Mrs. E's Grand Banks because the engine meter showed 6800 hours. His response was as follows: =================================== Dear Richard, You can expect between 20,000 - 25,000 hours before wear might require a rebuild. At 6,800 hours it is just starting to run at it's best. Maintain the bolt on items is the important thing. We have various upgrades and improvements for the 120, but you will probably find them already installed. What is the boat and owners name? Maybe I know the boat. We can supply you the latest (current production) Ford engine with all new marine equipment for about $12,000. Fits in same bolt holes. But you will not need it. Check out the transmission. Have oil sample done on the transmission oil. It is probably a Borg Warner 1013-000-003 CR2 unit. Best regards, Bob Smith ================================================== ========== Although I think he may be a little optimistic, Bob Smith enjoys a excellent reputation for his knowledge and honesty. I mentioned this to the surveyor who inspected my wife's boat and is also a Grand Banks owner and he agreed with what Bob had said. In my opinion the newer turbocharged diesels that are tweaking lots of horsepower at high RPM out of small packages have a much shorter service life. In this case however, the normally aspirated Leyman Ford is physically almost the same size of the Volvo engines in my Navigator that produce over three times the hp. One final note. I have a friend who just completed his first east coast trip from MA to Florida in his '72 Hat. with normally aspirated DD 671's. Both engines have well over 10,000 hours as the boat has been regularly used for fishing. They both run fine, although the port engine has some minor scouring on one cylinder wall. The diesel mechanic that inspected it told him not to worry about it, he still had a few thousand hours left before a rebuild would be required. Eisboch |
On Wednesday 05 January 2005 8:53 am in rec.boats Eisboch wrote:
In my opinion the newer turbocharged diesels that are tweaking lots of horsepower at high RPM out of small packages have a much shorter service life. In this case however, the normally aspirated Leyman Ford is physically almost the same size of the Volvo engines in my Navigator that produce over three times the hp. This is correct, wear is caused by friction and friction is proportional to the square of velocity. One of the main reasons that diesels last longer is that they run more slowly, producing max power at around 2000 RPM or less. -- My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently deleted. Send only plain text. |
Chuck,
I realize your post is related to the boating time required to acquire over 10,000 engine hours but, in terms of engine longevity, you might be interested in the following email response I received from Bob Smith at American Diesel Corp. American Diesel sells replacement engines and components and owns the inventory and intellectual property of the former Leyman Ford. I actually had the Ford Lehman in mind when I noted that some older trawlers can be found with 6000-7000 hours. Big block per HP to create an ample heat sink, slow rev, naturally aspirated, etc. A friend of mine is a marine surveyor, and previously worked as an engineer for one of the major diesel mfgrs. He is one of the few guys really qualified to do mechanical and hull surveys at the same time. Jay has told me, (and he recently wrote a magazine article reiterating the point), that he is always doing surveys for people who are buying a used boat with 3,000 - 4,000 hours on a marine diesel. He will say that most of the buyers are very optimistic that they will get several thousand more hours of service- even when he finds a few problems or the oil analysis is very discouraging. The "diesels are immortal" legend seems to fuel the optimistic fire. My friend the Perkins dealer reports that many well-cared-for engines simply wander off to the elephant graveyard before they ever see 5,000 hours, and the only engines he is familar with that do 10,000 or more are in commercial fishboats, etc. My previous engine went TU right around 4000 hours. I religiously change the oil every 50 hours, and almost overmaintain an engine. In my case, it was a physical failure of a peripheral part, rather than a loss of useable compression, that caused a hydrolock and sudden failure. It's true that my engine didn't "wear out", but it was broken beyond practical repair (unless the Cheap and Dirty crew were hired for the job) in any case. In about 40-years of servicing marine diesels, the Perkins dealer has arrived at the conclusion that the most frequent cause of diesel failure in a pleasure boat is a worn-out oil cooler. (My failure was due to a failed solder joint in the turbo aftercooler) The 120HP Lehman was originally conceived as a farm tractor engine, IIRC. When run almost non-stop, they can last enormous amounts of time. I once saw a maintenance manual for similar engines used to generate electricity at North Slope oil field camps. There were a series of maintenance tasks to perform "every 10,000 hours", and some major refits due at the 50,000 and 100,000 hour marks. I have lost track of the source, but there is a chart kicking around that demonstrates the number of gallons of fuel that can typically be burned in a diesel cylinder before excessive scoring and ring wear begins. A 6-cylinder Lehman will burn about 1/3 gallon per cylinder, per hour, at cruising speed. In 6,000 hours, each cylinder will have burned about 2,000 gallons of fuel. Compare that to some of the higher HP 6-cylinders that burn several gallons per cylinder, per hour- and it helps to substantiate the observation that the high revving, light weight, stressed-out "modern" diesels being asked to behave more like gasoline engines than traditional marine diesels will also behave more like gasoline engines when it comes to life expectancy. I remain at odds with the statement that one can routinely nurse a pleasure boat diesel to the 10,000 or 20,000 hour mark, (the number of years required to do so notwithstanding). All the miraculous exceptions, and notoriously durable engines like the small Lehman, simply prove the rule. The 10,000 hour pleasure service diesel is probably about as rare as the 2700-hour gas engine: I wouldn't say they don't exist, but neither would I count on typically getting that sort of service. |
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... I have lost track of the source, but there is a chart kicking around that demonstrates the number of gallons of fuel that can typically be burned in a diesel cylinder before excessive scoring and ring wear begins. A 6-cylinder Lehman will burn about 1/3 gallon per cylinder, per hour, at cruising speed. In 6,000 hours, each cylinder will have burned about 2,000 gallons of fuel. Compare that to some of the higher HP 6-cylinders that burn several gallons per cylinder, per hour- and it helps to substantiate the observation that the high revving, light weight, stressed-out "modern" diesels being asked to behave more like gasoline engines than traditional marine diesels will also behave more like gasoline engines when it comes to life expectancy. I remain at odds with the statement that one can routinely nurse a pleasure boat diesel to the 10,000 or 20,000 hour mark, (the number of years required to do so notwithstanding). All the miraculous exceptions, and notoriously durable engines like the small Lehman, simply prove the rule. The 10,000 hour pleasure service diesel is probably about as rare as the 2700-hour gas engine: I wouldn't say they don't exist, but neither would I count on typically getting that sort of service. The fuel burned analysis is interesting and, the more I think about it, makes a lot of sense. I agree 100% that 10,000 hours or more is optimistic in a marine application and even Bob Smith was careful to qualify his statement with "failure due to wear" and advised to watch and maintain the bolt-ons. Eisboch |
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