On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:24:02 -0500, Dave Hall wrote:

What's so much different this time? Is it just that the ideals of liberals
and conservatives have become so polarized? Is it that liberals have
finally amassed a loud enough voice to make enough waves to be felt?

Liberals and conservatives have always been polarized, it's the center
that hasn't been. In my mind, what makes this election different,
especially if Dean is the Democratic candidate, the center will have to
make a decision, go left or go right. Neither of these candidates are
moderates. Bush is very conservative, and Dean is very liberal.


You still seem to have a problem differentiating a difference in
political ideology with "hate". I have seen nothing that could be
construed as "hate". Just because conservatives do not hold the same value
sets as liberals does not mean that they "hate" anyone. That you would
categorize as such speaks volumes about your bias.

I know too many conservatives to think that hate is a conservative value,
but I will say this, most of the hateful, racist people I know, call
themselves "conservative".

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 08:10:42 -0500, thunder
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:24:02 -0500, Dave Hall wrote:

What's so much different this time? Is it just that the ideals of liberals
and conservatives have become so polarized? Is it that liberals have
finally amassed a loud enough voice to make enough waves to be felt?

Liberals and conservatives have always been polarized, it's the center
that hasn't been. In my mind, what makes this election different,
especially if Dean is the Democratic candidate, the center will have to
make a decision, go left or go right. Neither of these candidates are
moderates. Bush is very conservative, and Dean is very liberal.

I don't think that mainstream America is ready for a liberal. Liberals
downplay those values and morals that most of the heartland live by.




You still seem to have a problem differentiating a difference in
political ideology with "hate". I have seen nothing that could be
construed as "hate". Just because conservatives do not hold the same value
sets as liberals does not mean that they "hate" anyone. That you would
categorize as such speaks volumes about your bias.

I know too many conservatives to think that hate is a conservative value,
but I will say this, most of the hateful, racist people I know, call
themselves "conservative".

I would call them "intolerant".

Think about this though. If there were an element in society that you
could statistically track, and could link this same element to a
definite decline in living standard, or quality of life, and you spoke
out against it, based on your evidence, would that make you "Hateful"?
Since when do we have to tolerate every element or trend in society?

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

I don't think that mainstream America is ready for a liberal. Liberals
downplay those values and morals that most of the heartland live by.


Nah....that's not true. Liberals don't try to legislate morals, or preach
about them. We get in your face about some stuff, but not about other stuff.
The difference between Liberals and Conservatives is which areas they
acknowledge as "None of anybody's business".

It's 100% based on the opinions of human beings, not natural law or deities.
Therefore, it's fair play to meddle until the next person is elected. If I
were elected, there'd be a law saying that if your car leaks oil all over
parking lots and you don't fix it within 30 days of getting a ticket,
someone comes to your house and breaks your kneecaps, and all five fingers
on one hand. But that's just me.

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:14:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

I don't think that mainstream America is ready for a liberal. Liberals
downplay those values and morals that most of the heartland live by.


Nah....that's not true. Liberals don't try to legislate morals, or preach
about them. We get in your face about some stuff, but not about other stuff.
The difference between Liberals and Conservatives is which areas they
acknowledge as "None of anybody's business".

It's 100% based on the opinions of human beings, not natural law or deities.
Therefore, it's fair play to meddle until the next person is elected. If I
were elected, there'd be a law saying that if your car leaks oil all over
parking lots and you don't fix it within 30 days of getting a ticket,
someone comes to your house and breaks your kneecaps, and all five fingers
on one hand. But that's just me.


That law's been on the books in Germany for a long time!

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

"John H" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:14:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

I don't think that mainstream America is ready for a liberal. Liberals
downplay those values and morals that most of the heartland live by.


Nah....that's not true. Liberals don't try to legislate morals, or preach
about them. We get in your face about some stuff, but not about other
stuff.
The difference between Liberals and Conservatives is which areas they
acknowledge as "None of anybody's business".

It's 100% based on the opinions of human beings, not natural law or
deities.
Therefore, it's fair play to meddle until the next person is elected. If
I
were elected, there'd be a law saying that if your car leaks oil all over
parking lots and you don't fix it within 30 days of getting a ticket,
someone comes to your house and breaks your kneecaps, and all five
fingers
on one hand. But that's just me.


That law's been on the books in Germany for a long time!

John H

I like it! Seriously....it washes into the storm drains and ends up in MY
fishing water. My mechanic says 99% of the leakers he sees need a $1.50
washer around the oil pan drain plug.

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:33:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:



That law's been on the books in Germany for a long time!

John H

I like it! Seriously....it washes into the storm drains and ends up in MY
fishing water. My mechanic says 99% of the leakers he sees need a $1.50
washer around the oil pan drain plug.

But you fail to consider the poor people, who routinely drive 20 year
old cars, who can't afford to replace the front main seal in the
engine, or the valve cover gaskets.

See, this is what I mean about the duplicity of the left. You guys
become single focussed when you adopt a cause. But you fail to
consider the interactivity that results when your "vision" is applied
in practice.

What is more important to you? Helping the poor stay afloat, or being
cents wise and dollar foolish when it comes to little environmental
issues?

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:33:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:



That law's been on the books in Germany for a long time!

John H

I like it! Seriously....it washes into the storm drains and ends up in MY
fishing water. My mechanic says 99% of the leakers he sees need a $1.50
washer around the oil pan drain plug.

But you fail to consider the poor people, who routinely drive 20 year
old cars, who can't afford to replace the front main seal in the
engine, or the valve cover gaskets.

See, this is what I mean about the duplicity of the left. You guys
become single focussed when you adopt a cause. But you fail to
consider the interactivity that results when your "vision" is applied
in practice.

What is more important to you? Helping the poor stay afloat, or being
cents wise and dollar foolish when it comes to little environmental
issues?

Dave, what is it with you today? Are you on cold medication or something? I
said my mechanic finds that 99% of leakers need a washer that costs as much
as one and a half lottery tickets. Even low-income people often change their
oil. The fault lies with the mechanics who don't give a damn about the
quality of their work. Joe the mechanic puts a new washer on every car, at
every oil change.

I fully understand that some cars have much more serious problems, and that
people sometimes can't afford the repairs. I was in that situation at one
point in my life. But if you read what I wrote, it's clear that a nasty
automotive problem could be virtually eliminated for next to nothing. Want
another example? Like many astute guys, I can tell when someone's tires are
low on air. So, at my office or apartment, if I have a pen & paper handy,
I'll stick a note on someone's windshield saying something like "Hey! Your
tires are REALLY low on air. Get to the pump before you get hurt". Why? It
snows here. For tires that need 32 psi, being 5 pounds low can make them
behave as if they were bald. I don't want to see people get hurt. Sometimes,
someone sticks the note on the front door of the apt entrance, or the tenant
directory of the office building saying "Thanks to whomever - they were down
to 18 pounds!"

What does this achieve? /For either free, or 50 cents (the cost of some air
pumps), maybe someone didn't get into an accident.

ThiMk, Dayve.

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:14:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

I don't think that mainstream America is ready for a liberal. Liberals
downplay those values and morals that most of the heartland live by.


Nah....that's not true. Liberals don't try to legislate morals, or preach
about them. We get in your face about some stuff, but not about other stuff.
The difference between Liberals and Conservatives is which areas they
acknowledge as "None of anybody's business".

It's 100% based on the opinions of human beings, not natural law or deities.
Therefore, it's fair play to meddle until the next person is elected. If I
were elected, there'd be a law saying that if your car leaks oil all over
parking lots and you don't fix it within 30 days of getting a ticket,
someone comes to your house and breaks your kneecaps, and all five fingers
on one hand. But that's just me.


My law would be that you'd be legally allowed to shoot the fool that
came to your house to break your kneecaps.

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:14:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

I don't think that mainstream America is ready for a liberal. Liberals
downplay those values and morals that most of the heartland live by.


Nah....that's not true. Liberals don't try to legislate morals, or preach
about them. We get in your face about some stuff, but not about other
stuff.
The difference between Liberals and Conservatives is which areas they
acknowledge as "None of anybody's business".

It's 100% based on the opinions of human beings, not natural law or
deities.
Therefore, it's fair play to meddle until the next person is elected. If
I
were elected, there'd be a law saying that if your car leaks oil all over
parking lots and you don't fix it within 30 days of getting a ticket,
someone comes to your house and breaks your kneecaps, and all five
fingers
on one hand. But that's just me.


My law would be that you'd be legally allowed to shoot the fool that
came to your house to break your kneecaps.

Dave

I guess you've never lived near rivers that were capable or catching fire,
or bodies of water with glistening rainbows from a constant oil slick. Is
that what you want for your kids?

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:10:38 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:14:16 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

I don't think that mainstream America is ready for a liberal. Liberals
downplay those values and morals that most of the heartland live by.


Nah....that's not true. Liberals don't try to legislate morals, or preach
about them. We get in your face about some stuff, but not about other
stuff.
The difference between Liberals and Conservatives is which areas they
acknowledge as "None of anybody's business".

It's 100% based on the opinions of human beings, not natural law or
deities.
Therefore, it's fair play to meddle until the next person is elected. If
I
were elected, there'd be a law saying that if your car leaks oil all over
parking lots and you don't fix it within 30 days of getting a ticket,
someone comes to your house and breaks your kneecaps, and all five
fingers
on one hand. But that's just me.


My law would be that you'd be legally allowed to shoot the fool that
came to your house to break your kneecaps.

Dave

I guess you've never lived near rivers that were capable or catching fire,
or bodies of water with glistening rainbows from a constant oil slick. Is
that what you want for your kids?

Nope, but I'm not cents wise and dollar foolish when it comes to the
environment. I'm not an alarmist who wants to redefine every power
enthusiast's lifestyle by claiming that these things are more
responsible for pollution than agricultural or industrial sources.

I'm not in favor of rules which unnecessarily burden those who can
least afford it. And I don't think the government (And by extension
the taxpayers) should be forced to "fix" that problem by subsidizing
the poor.

Dave