Gould ain't stoopid. He knows they approved the posting of the
commercials.

Gould ain't stoopid, just disingenuous.


It was posted on the group's website.
Along with a lot of other ideas from contributors.

Sort of like a "letters to the editor" page.

You guys on the right: If you don't agree with something- try to suppress it.
Or pull it out of context and make it an issue.

I think comparing Bush to Hitler, (particularly Hitler in hindsight rather than
Hitler as he appeared to the masses of Germans he mesmerized in the late 30's),
is over the top.

But, I'll tell you this: I will defend the right of any person to make such a
comparison.
I accuse the right wing of being hateful in its propaganda techniques, but I
have never and will never suggest that the right wing should be legally
restrained.

I haven't been paying attention to Chuck's ramblings on this. Is he
*really* claiming the ad was run by an independent individual without the
blessing of moveon.org and the Democratic Party? I find it hard to believe
that he'd be that naive...

I'm waiting for *anybody* to furnish *any* information that the proposed ad ran
*anywhere*.

I keep asking for this information, and all I get in return is a bunch of weak
minded flaming.......

You guys have any information that the ad appeared anywhere except as a
suggestion submitted to a website by a subscriber? This would be the time to
put up or shut up.

I have offered to retract my statement if it can be shown that this ad has been
used as a public campaign tool. So far, nada.
Nada but a bunch of acrimonious personal comments from the same bunch of usual
suspects.

Gould 0738 wrote:

I think comparing Bush to Hitler, (particularly Hitler in hindsight rather than
Hitler as he appeared to the masses of Germans he mesmerized in the late 30's),
is over the top.

As one who is always ready to find a parallel in Bush and
Hitler I do not think it is "over the top" to do so. Bush
and Co's activities and political "vision" so closely
resemble Hitler's in the 1930's that the comparison requires
little imagination to articulate.

He has mesmerized the masses with images of military power
and helped to create foreign and domestic enemies of the
"homeland" to divert attention from the destruction of those
policies and practices which provided health and security
for generations of Americans.

His handlers do not hesitate to suggest and even impose
policies which the Nuremberg tribunal found to be criminal.
The suggestion that US citizens may be stripped of
citizenship and deported (to where?), the fact of arresting
and holding incommunicado US citizens without charges or
legal representation, the use of military forces to invade a
sovereign state for "preemptive" purposes ... the list goes
on and increases daily.

Our fathers fought to stop what Bush is doing, what he has
done and what he and his handlers would impose upon us. The
comparison is valid.

Rick

Here's the context in which the alleged
"Dem sleaze ad" appeared. It was submitted as a contest entry. To the best of
my knowledge, it has not appeared anywhere except among a large number of
contest entries on a site designed to accept entries to this contest.

Rules and Guidelines
GUIDELINES

Please use the following information to guide you when making your submission.
For more complete information on eligibility requirements, please see the
official rules below. If you're considering making an ad, we also strongly
encourage you to sign up for the Bush in 30 Seconds update emails, which will
remind you of important deadlines and provide you with the latest contest news.

Content: We're NOT looking for the same old slick political ads from Washington
media consultants. Instead, we're looking for really creative ads that will
engage and enlighten viewers and help them understand the truth about George
Bush. There are some legal limits on what you can do (see below), and we're not
going to post anything that would be inappropriate for television, but other
than that what you put in your ads is up to you (live action, animation,
personal rant, whatever!).

Judging Criteria: Both the MoveOn.org members who are asked to pick the
finalists and the panel judges who will pick the winner will be asked to rate
each ad based on four criteria:

1) Overall Impact: educational, informational, persuasive (weighted 40%);
2) Originality: concepts/ideas/format (weighted 20%);
3) Memorable Content and Delivery (weighted 20%); and
4) Clear Message (weighted 20%)

Who can participate: Anyone over 15 years old who is a US citizen or resident
alien. As much as we'd like to make this a global contest, federal election and
tax regulations make that impossible.

Length: Ads should be no longer than 30 seconds.

Format: Submissions will be accepted online ONLY in mpeg or Quicktime digital
formats. Your ad needs to be 4MB or smaller in its final, encoded version.
You'll be able to start posting submissions on this site beginning on November
24th through December 5th; online voting to pick the finalists will take place
from December 15th through December 30th. Sign up for email updates in order to
receive a notice when you can post and more detailed instructions about how to
do that.

No Express Advocacy: MoveOn.org Voter Fund is a so-called section 527 political
organization, and is prohibited from expressly advocating for the election or
removal of specific candidates for federal elections. In other words, your ads
can say lots of different things about George Bush and his administration, but
you are not allowed to say that people should vote for or against him.

Respect for Existing Copyright: You must be the original author of everything
in your ad or have permission to use copyright protected material. So while we
want you to be creative, you need to be careful about what you put into the ad.
If you're thinking about using existing music, video clips, photos or the like,
odds are that someone else owns a copyright to that material and you will need
to get the copyright owner's permission before using the material in your ad.

Consent from Actors in Your Ad: All entrants will be required to declare that
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requirements may vary from state to state.

MoveOn.org Voter Fund
Bush In 30 Seconds Contest
Official Rules

ALL SUBMITTED ENTRIES MUST BE LICENSED PURSUANT TO THE CREATIVE COMMONS LICENSE
DESIGNATED FOR THIS PROMOTION. MUST BE A U. S. CITIZEN OR U. S. RESIDENT ALIEN
AND OVER 15 YEARS OLD TO ENTER. Participation constitutes entrant's full and
unconditional agreement to and acceptance of these Official Rules. The
MoveOn.org Voter Fund Bush In 30 Seconds Contest (“Contest�) commences at
12:01 a.m. PST on November 24, 2003, and ends at 11:59 p.m. PST on January 31,
2004. Contest is sponsored and run by MoveOn.org Voter Fund, a nonprofit
political organization, headquartered at 50 E Street SE #300 Washington, DC
20003 USA (“Sponsor�).

(1) Eligibility:

Contest is offered only to natural persons older than 15 years of age as of the
date of entry, who are US citizens or US resident aliens. Employees,
independent contractors, officers, and directors of Sponsor, its affiliates,
subsidiaries, advertising, promotion and fulfillment agencies, and legal
advisors, and the immediate family members and persons living in the same
household of such persons, are not eligible to participate in the Contest.
Contest offered only in the 50 United States and the District of Columbia. Void
where prohibited by law.

(2) How to Enter :

Create your own “Bush In 30 Seconds� ad to bring current issues and
important topics to the eyes and ears of the voters. Your ad should challenge a
current policy of President Bush and his Administration by effectively
communicating, in an informative, memorable and creative way, a current issue
or topic which you believe should be addressed, re-examined or changed. Anytime
between November 24, 2003 and December 5, 2003, access Sponsor's web site at
http://www.bushin30seconds.org/, complete and submit the Contest Entry Form,
and post your entry online. Designate how you would like your attribution to
appear with your posted entry (e.g., “Mary Smith, Chicago, IL,� “M.
Smith, Chicago, IL,� or “Mary S., Chicago, IL�). Entries may be any form
of moving image, including but not limited to, video, animation, text and audio
in either mpeg or Quicktime online formats. Duration of entry cannot exceed 30
seconds. Both audio/visual and visual only entries are permitted. To be
eligible for entry in the Contest, entries must be received by Sponsor by 11:59
p.m. PST, December 5, 2003.

Entrant must be the sole author and copyright owner of entry, or entrant must
have permission (via license or otherwise) to use or incorporate those entry
portions authored or owned by third parties. Use of images, music, and other
works in the public domain may be incorporated into entries. However, materials
that infringe on the rights of any third party may not be used. Sponsor is not
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portion of the the entry without attribution or prior permission.

(3) Prize:

The winning entry, or derivative work of said entry, will be aired as part of a
television advertising campaign funded by Sponsor. The ad will be aired during
the week of the 2004 President's State Of The Union Address (time and placement
of airing shall be at the sole discretion of Sponsor). Winner will receive a
videotape of the ad, as aired, from Sponsor.

(4) Winner:

Online Voting : Between December 15 and December 31, 2003, visitors to the
bushin30seconds.org web site may vote for any and all posted entries by voting
on a “5 Stars� (highest rating) to “1 Star� (lowest rating) basis for
each of the following four categories:

1) Overall Impact: educational, informational, persuasive (weighted 40%);

2) Originality: concepts/ideas/format (weighted 20%);

3) Memorable Content and Delivery (weighted 20%); and

4) Clear Message (weighted 20%)

One vote per entry per active email address only . Online votes that are either
fraudulently generated or duplicated, or associated with inactive or
“dummy� email addresses, are subject to disqualification. Sponsor will
tabulate all online votes, calculate and assign each entry's weighted average
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around January 5, 2004. It is not necessary to register on the web site or
participate in the Contest to vote online.

Please note: the online voting period ends at 11:59 EST December 31, 2003 .

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Originality (20% of overall grade), Memorable Content and Delivery (20% of
overall grade); and Clear Message (20% of overall grade). The single Favorite
Picks entry with the highest average rating is the winner.

All grading decisions are final. Sponsor reserves the right to disqualify and
remove from the web site any entry which is, in the judging panel's discretion,
inappropriate, offensive, defamatory, or demeaning to Sponsor's reputation or
goodwill. Winner will be notified by e-mail, express mail and/or phone on or
about January 15, 2004 and shall be required to complete an affidavit or
declaration of eligibility/liability release and, except where prohibited, a
publicity release and such other documents as may be required by Sponsor to
protect its right to air and use the winning entry. Required documents must be
signed and received within 7 days of the date printed on the prize
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undeliverable may result in forfeiture of prize and selection of the next
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the prize constitutes permission (except where prohibited by law) to use
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entered and/or submitted for this Contest or otherwise collected by this site,
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Harry Krause wrote:

Also in my third year, I was living with a young lady student who worked
weekend evenings as a bunny at the KC Playboy Club. Cute gal, tall, with
absolutely fabulous teats. Not huge, just perfect.

Ah yes, how the sexist views all women.

You surely are a democratic sleaze bag.

-- Charlie


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On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 02:58:22 +0000, NOYB wrote:


Right now, I could point out that as of November, there was already a net
gain of 589,000 jobs in 2003...but it will be more fun to post an even
higher number tomorrow.

LOL, not enough. He'll still be the first net looser since Hoover. I
never liked Clinton, but we had 20 *million* new jobs under his
administration.

On 09 Jan 2004 01:42:37 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Moveon.org vetted these commercials and allowed it to be aired with
the words "sponsored by moveon.org". Lie (it is really not spin when
it comes from someone so intellegent as you) if you want, but they put
it out, sponsored it, approved it, a

Lie?

I said the ad did not appear in the media.

So then you would not consider a public website which can be viewed by
a majority of the citizens of the world, not a media source?

Dave

Right now, I could point out that as of November, there was already a net
gain of 589,000 jobs in 2003...but it will be more fun to post an even
higher number tomorrow.

What's 150,000 x 12?

I'm not strong in math, but it looks like 1.8mm to me. Long ways above 600k

We need 150,000 new jobs in this country *every* month just to keep pace with
population growth, immigration, etc.

According to the numbers provided above,
there are 1.2 million more people out of work now than 12 months ago.

I know, I know......you have a statistic that shows otherwise. Problem is, your
statistic assumes that unless somebody is collecting unemployment benefits they
must be working- or simply don't exist.

So then you would not consider a public website which can be viewed by
a majority of the citizens of the world, not a media source?

Dave

Put it in context, Dave.

The proposed commercial was one of many, many, entries into a contest. It
reflects the opinion of the person that prepared it and entered it. It was an
item that was included with all the other entries to the same contest- as it
should have been. It was an entry.

Should moveon.org, or any organization, take it upon themselves to censor
contest entries that might be controversial?

Does your local rag ever run a letter to the editor expressing a sentiment you
disagree with? How dare they?!

Trust me, you really don't want to open the
"hateful web site" can of worms. There are some real doozies out there, and the
right would (and should) be very embarrassed by some of them.

On 09 Jan 2004 16:33:42 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

So then you would not consider a public website which can be viewed by
a majority of the citizens of the world, not a media source?

Dave

Put it in context, Dave.

I did. I consider the internet to be as visible (And in many cases
more so) than the traditional media of radio TV and print. Because
something erroneous or incideful was contained on the web is no reason
to treat it any differently than a similar piece in any other media.



The proposed commercial was one of many, many, entries into a contest. It
reflects the opinion of the person that prepared it and entered it. It was an
item that was included with all the other entries to the same contest- as it
should have been. It was an entry.

moveon.org should be responsible enough to verify the accuracy of
their sources. Promoting anything which is not true opens them up for
all sorts of liability suits.




Should moveon.org, or any organization, take it upon themselves to censor
contest entries that might be controversial?

They should if they become the vehicle by which blatant lies can be
promoted.


Does your local rag ever run a letter to the editor expressing a sentiment you
disagree with? How dare they?!

Op/Ed pieces are one thing. They are clearly marked as such. Placing
content on a web site without similar disclaimers is another.



Trust me, you really don't want to open the
"hateful web site" can of worms. There are some real doozies out there, and the
right would (and should) be very embarrassed by some of them.

And the first amendment protects them. But they aren't passing
themselves off as the truth either.

Dave