Owner Feedback VCP , CD , P&H
 

I am buying my first kayak but have been renting and demoing for a
couple of years. I have narrowed my choices to 3 similar boats. I am
very interested in hearing from those that own or have used these
boats for a period of time.
The boats are VCP Skerray RMX, CD Sirocco, and P&H Cappella 166 RM.

I would also like owner feedback on a Walden Passage, unrelated to the
above boats. Interested for general fooling around usage in addition
to one of the above. Thanks!

Vee wrote:
I am buying my first kayak but have been renting and demoing for a
couple of years. I have narrowed my choices to 3 similar boats. I am
very interested in hearing from those that own or have used these
boats for a period of time.
The boats are VCP Skerray RMX, CD Sirocco, and P&H Cappella 166 RM.

I would also like owner feedback on a Walden Passage, unrelated to the
above boats. Interested for general fooling around usage in addition
to one of the above. Thanks!

For reference, I currently own a Pintail, an Anas Acuta and a Bestsie
Bay Aral. I've previously owned a Passage, a Nordkapp HM, a fiberglass
BBK Recluse and a Nigel Foster Silhouette (European built). I've also
built three Greenland style skin-on-frame kayaks. I've paddled a Skerray
RM (not the RMX) for two weeks in Shetland and have demoed the Capella
and the Gulfstream, which is the Sirocco's fiberglass "brother". I'm 6'
tall and ~170# (currently 165#).

The kayaks on your list are very different boats.

The Passage is at the crossover point between recreational boats and
true sea kayaks. It's pretty capable in rough water, but it's a too
short, too wide and a bit too stable to be optimum. It's also rather
slow, which can be a real handicap on longer days. It tracks moderately
strongly compared to the others. It's a great boat for what it is and it
served me well. If its size and capabilities suit your needs, it would
be a good choice.

The Skerray is a very maneuverable boat, essentially a "plastic
Pintail". It's very confidence inspiring in rough water and seems to be
a bit faster than a Pintail. It's definitely faster than a Passage and
feels far more "spirited". I like the boat a lot. I would own one for
teaching and rock play if I could justify buying another boat.

The Capella feels very well made and has one of the stiffest plastic
hulls on the market. Like the Skerray, it's very maneuverable, but I
found that it weathercocked badly, to the point that the skeg could not
correct it fully. Perhaps your experience has been different. I don't
think it's as stable as the Skerray, but I paddled the boats a couple of
years apart, so I can't say for certain.

The Gulfstream/Scirocco is a bit of a tub, IMO. It's well built, but
it's slow and somewhat ponderous feeling to me, probably because the
cockpit is excessively roomy for someone my size. It tracks reasonably
well and turns well on edge, but it just feels too big.

Depending on your size and personal preferences, you may feel entirely
differently than I do about these boats. I originally favored strong
tracking boats, but now prefer more maneuverable craft, so consider my
opinions in that context.

Brian Nystrom wrote in news:0K8rd.76575$7i4.55243
@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

Vee wrote:
I am buying my first kayak but have been renting and demoing for a
couple of years. I have narrowed my choices to 3 similar boats. I am
very interested in hearing from those that own or have used these
boats for a period of time.
The boats are VCP Skerray RMX, CD Sirocco, and P&H Cappella 166 RM.


The kayaks on your list are very different boats.

The Passage is at the crossover point between recreational boats and
true sea kayaks. It's pretty capable in rough water, but it's a too
short, too wide and a bit too stable to be optimum. It's also rather
slow, which can be a real handicap on longer days. It tracks moderately
strongly compared to the others. It's a great boat for what it is and it
served me well. If its size and capabilities suit your needs, it would
be a good choice.

Good description of the Passage. It's also worth mentioning that it's
probably the shortest boat on the market that comes equipped with a skeg. I
found that it tracks reasonably well without the skeg deployed but improves
considerabled when dropped. Unlike another boat I won't mention the Passage
is a boat that has been made better with the addition of the skeg.


The Skerray is a very maneuverable boat, essentially a "plastic
Pintail". It's very confidence inspiring in rough water and seems to be
a bit faster than a Pintail. It's definitely faster than a Passage and
feels far more "spirited". I like the boat a lot. I would own one for
teaching and rock play if I could justify buying another boat.

What a terrific assessment of the Skerray, though the Skerray RM is actually
essentially a plastic Skerray. "Spirited" is a very good description of how
it paddles. It's just a fun boat to paddle. Do you really think the Skerray
(I assume you mean the composite version) is faster than a Pintail? I have
used mine for teaching and it's a good fit for that, although when I'm
demonstrating sweep turns or low brace turns I often feeling like I'm
cheating because it's so easy. I often have to explain to students that my
boat has a lot to do with how effective the turning strokes are.

Would you be interested in a fiberglass version with an ocean cockpit? I've
considered selling mine (but always change my mind when I get out and paddle
it again) and might consider selling it to someone I know would appreciate
it.

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in news:0K8rd.76575$7i4.55243
@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:


Vee wrote:

I am buying my first kayak but have been renting and demoing for a
couple of years. I have narrowed my choices to 3 similar boats. I am
very interested in hearing from those that own or have used these
boats for a period of time.
The boats are VCP Skerray RMX, CD Sirocco, and P&H Cappella 166 RM.


The kayaks on your list are very different boats.

The Passage is at the crossover point between recreational boats and
true sea kayaks. It's pretty capable in rough water, but it's a too
short, too wide and a bit too stable to be optimum. It's also rather
slow, which can be a real handicap on longer days. It tracks moderately
strongly compared to the others. It's a great boat for what it is and it
served me well. If its size and capabilities suit your needs, it would
be a good choice.


Good description of the Passage. It's also worth mentioning that it's
probably the shortest boat on the market that comes equipped with a skeg. I
found that it tracks reasonably well without the skeg deployed but improves
considerabled when dropped. Unlike another boat I won't mention the Passage
is a boat that has been made better with the addition of the skeg.


The Skerray is a very maneuverable boat, essentially a "plastic
Pintail". It's very confidence inspiring in rough water and seems to be
a bit faster than a Pintail. It's definitely faster than a Passage and
feels far more "spirited". I like the boat a lot. I would own one for
teaching and rock play if I could justify buying another boat.


What a terrific assessment of the Skerray, though the Skerray RM is actually
essentially a plastic Skerray. "Spirited" is a very good description of how
it paddles. It's just a fun boat to paddle. Do you really think the Skerray
(I assume you mean the composite version) is faster than a Pintail?

Actually, I was referring to the Skerray RM and yes, it seems a bit
faster, but perhaps it's just that I consider my Pintail to be a real
pig on flat water. It's the best rough water boat I've ever paddled and
I wouldn't want to be without a pre-'95 Pintail in the "fleet", but it's
drudgery to paddle when it's dead-flat-calm and I'm trying to keep up
with other paddlers in higher performance boats. As you know, it pretty
much "hits a wall" at around 4 knots. I have to admit that I've never
paddled these boats back to back, so perhaps I'm mistaken about the
speed difference.

I have
used mine for teaching and it's a good fit for that, although when I'm
demonstrating sweep turns or low brace turns I often feeling like I'm
cheating because it's so easy. I often have to explain to students that my
boat has a lot to do with how effective the turning strokes are.

Fun, isn't it? That's why I use my Pintail for instructing. My first
instructor (when I was paddling the Passage) paddled a Skerray and I
just assumed that the difference in our abilities was all a matter of
skill. Little did I know that he was cheating...

Would you be interested in a fiberglass version with an ocean cockpit? I've
considered selling mine (but always change my mind when I get out and paddle
it again) and might consider selling it to someone I know would appreciate
it.

I should hate you for tempting me like that! ;-)

Actually, there wouldn't be much point in my getting a 'glass Skerray,
since it wouldn't be much different from the Pintail. I would like to
have an RM for teaching and rock bashing, and had a line on one a while
back, but I just can't swing it right now.

Brian Nystrom wrote in
:

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in
news:0K8rd.76575$7i4.55243 @bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:


Vee wrote:

I am buying my first kayak but have been renting and demoing for a
couple of years. I have narrowed my choices to 3 similar boats. I am
very interested in hearing from those that own or have used these
boats for a period of time.
The boats are VCP Skerray RMX, CD Sirocco, and P&H Cappella 166 RM.


The kayaks on your list are very different boats.

The Passage is at the crossover point between recreational boats and
true sea kayaks. It's pretty capable in rough water, but it's a too
short, too wide and a bit too stable to be optimum. It's also rather
slow, which can be a real handicap on longer days. It tracks
moderately strongly compared to the others. It's a great boat for what
it is and it served me well. If its size and capabilities suit your
needs, it would be a good choice.


Good description of the Passage. It's also worth mentioning that it's
probably the shortest boat on the market that comes equipped with a
skeg. I found that it tracks reasonably well without the skeg
deployed but improves considerabled when dropped. Unlike another boat
I won't mention the Passage is a boat that has been made better with
the addition of the skeg.


The Skerray is a very maneuverable boat, essentially a "plastic
Pintail". It's very confidence inspiring in rough water and seems to
be a bit faster than a Pintail. It's definitely faster than a Passage
and feels far more "spirited". I like the boat a lot. I would own one
for teaching and rock play if I could justify buying another boat.


What a terrific assessment of the Skerray, though the Skerray RM is
actually essentially a plastic Skerray. "Spirited" is a very good
description of how it paddles. It's just a fun boat to paddle. Do you
really think the Skerray (I assume you mean the composite version) is
faster than a Pintail?

Actually, I was referring to the Skerray RM and yes, it seems a bit
faster, but perhaps it's just that I consider my Pintail to be a real
pig on flat water. It's the best rough water boat I've ever paddled and
I wouldn't want to be without a pre-'95 Pintail in the "fleet", but
it's drudgery to paddle when it's dead-flat-calm and I'm trying to keep
up with other paddlers in higher performance boats. As you know, it
pretty much "hits a wall" at around 4 knots. I have to admit that I've
never paddled these boats back to back, so perhaps I'm mistaken about
the speed difference.

Could be. Some boats just "feel" faster. When I built my Outer Island I
knew it was supposed to be a fast boat and I could easily tell that it was
quick but I didn't realize how efficient it was at higher speeds until I was
paddling with a friend of mine that's a strong paddler. When he's in his
Artic Hawk I always struggled to keep up him over longer distances but in
the OI I felt like I was just cruising and he wasn't pulling away from me as
he normally would.


Would you be interested in a fiberglass version with an ocean cockpit?
I've considered selling mine (but always change my mind when I get
out and paddle it again) and might consider selling it to someone I
know would appreciate it.

I should hate you for tempting me like that! ;-)

Actually, there wouldn't be much point in my getting a 'glass Skerray,
since it wouldn't be much different from the Pintail. I would like to
have an RM for teaching and rock bashing, and had a line on one a while
back, but I just can't swing it right now.

That's actually my primary motivation for selling it. There are some pretty
nice RM boats coming out these days and I wouldn't mind having something
that would take the abuse of teaching and running a few big rivers like the
Delaware. On the the other hand, for a glass boat the Skerray (and a
Pintail) can take quite a beating. According to the serial number in mine
it's 14 years old.

Vee wrote:
I am buying my first kayak but have been renting and demoing for a
couple of years. I have narrowed my choices to 3 similar boats. I am
very interested in hearing from those that own or have used these
boats for a period of time.
The boats are VCP Skerray RMX, CD Sirocco, and P&H Cappella 166 RM.

I would also like owner feedback on a Walden Passage, unrelated to
the
above boats. Interested for general fooling around usage in addition
to one of the above. Thanks!

John Fereira wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote in
:


John Fereira wrote:

Brian Nystrom wrote in
news:0K8rd.76575$7i4.55243 @bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:



Vee wrote:


I am buying my first kayak but have been renting and demoing for a
couple of years. I have narrowed my choices to 3 similar boats. I am
very interested in hearing from those that own or have used these
boats for a period of time.
The boats are VCP Skerray RMX, CD Sirocco, and P&H Cappella 166 RM.


The kayaks on your list are very different boats.

The Passage is at the crossover point between recreational boats and
true sea kayaks. It's pretty capable in rough water, but it's a too
short, too wide and a bit too stable to be optimum. It's also rather
slow, which can be a real handicap on longer days. It tracks
moderately strongly compared to the others. It's a great boat for what
it is and it served me well. If its size and capabilities suit your
needs, it would be a good choice.


Good description of the Passage. It's also worth mentioning that it's
probably the shortest boat on the market that comes equipped with a
skeg. I found that it tracks reasonably well without the skeg
deployed but improves considerabled when dropped. Unlike another boat
I won't mention the Passage is a boat that has been made better with
the addition of the skeg.



The Skerray is a very maneuverable boat, essentially a "plastic
Pintail". It's very confidence inspiring in rough water and seems to
be a bit faster than a Pintail. It's definitely faster than a Passage
and feels far more "spirited". I like the boat a lot. I would own one
for teaching and rock play if I could justify buying another boat.


What a terrific assessment of the Skerray, though the Skerray RM is
actually essentially a plastic Skerray. "Spirited" is a very good
description of how it paddles. It's just a fun boat to paddle. Do you
really think the Skerray (I assume you mean the composite version) is
faster than a Pintail?

Actually, I was referring to the Skerray RM and yes, it seems a bit
faster, but perhaps it's just that I consider my Pintail to be a real
pig on flat water. It's the best rough water boat I've ever paddled and
I wouldn't want to be without a pre-'95 Pintail in the "fleet", but
it's drudgery to paddle when it's dead-flat-calm and I'm trying to keep
up with other paddlers in higher performance boats. As you know, it
pretty much "hits a wall" at around 4 knots. I have to admit that I've
never paddled these boats back to back, so perhaps I'm mistaken about
the speed difference.


Could be. Some boats just "feel" faster. When I built my Outer Island I
knew it was supposed to be a fast boat and I could easily tell that it was
quick but I didn't realize how efficient it was at higher speeds until I was
paddling with a friend of mine that's a strong paddler. When he's in his
Artic Hawk I always struggled to keep up him over longer distances but in
the OI I felt like I was just cruising and he wasn't pulling away from me as
he normally would.

I have OI plans and will eventually get around to building one. After
paddling the fiberglass version recently, I was reminded of how great a
boat it is. That's definitely got me more psyched about building it.

Would you be interested in a fiberglass version with an ocean cockpit?
I've considered selling mine (but always change my mind when I get
out and paddle it again) and might consider selling it to someone I
know would appreciate it.

I should hate you for tempting me like that! ;-)

Actually, there wouldn't be much point in my getting a 'glass Skerray,
since it wouldn't be much different from the Pintail. I would like to
have an RM for teaching and rock bashing, and had a line on one a while
back, but I just can't swing it right now.


That's actually my primary motivation for selling it. There are some pretty
nice RM boats coming out these days and I wouldn't mind having something
that would take the abuse of teaching and running a few big rivers like the
Delaware. On the the other hand, for a glass boat the Skerray (and a
Pintail) can take quite a beating. According to the serial number in mine
it's 14 years old.

My Pintail is a '93. It was rough when I bought it and it's taken plenty
of abuse since then. It's held up remarkably well, needing only a bit of
gelcoat work.

Thanks to both of you. From your feedback I surmise that the Skerray
would be the best choice but the Walden Passage is a good boat until I
figure out what I want be when I grow up. I live in W.NY and my initial
usage will probably be a mix of finger lakes, small rivers and the
canal. These trips will probably be evenings after work, 1/2 day
Saturdays and a rare overnight. I have not tried the Passage but will
attempt to locate one. I have tried the smaller Waldens at Bay Creek
but found the deck height too low to get comfortable. I don't have any
rolling skills so the mention that it rolls well was encouraging
because i was concerned about the width 24". I am in my 50's , 5'10
,190# and size 10 shoes. Fit has been the issue with some other boats.
I tried a CD Squamish and it felt tight that's why I asked about the
Sirocco. Based on price the Passage is a winner and if $ were not an
issue to the Skerray would be the way to go? My concern is probably
the same as other first time buyers afraid to buy too low or too much
for our beginning usage. Thanks for sharing your experience.

In a previous article, "vee" said:
attempt to locate one. I have tried the smaller Waldens at Bay Creek
but found the deck height too low to get comfortable. I don't have any

If you're paddling at Bay Creek (I assume you mean the one in Irondequoit
Creek?), don't judge the Skerray RMX by the yellow one they rent out. I
was paddling that one about twice a week this summer. I bought a brand
new one that they had on the racks at their end-of-year sale, and while it
handles about the same, it had a much better seat, much better thigh pads
and the skeg is controlled by a slider (much like the rental Avocets)
instead of the rope brake. Oh, and the plastic doesn't cut into your
hands when you pick it up by the cockpit. The yellow Skerray was a
trade-in, and evidently the previous owner customized it by ripping out
the coaming(? is that the term?) that goes around the inside of the
cockpit so that he could put in his own thigh pads.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
The software said it requires Windows 95 or better, so I installed Linux

I called Bay Creek today to inquire about ordering a boat. Apparently
the bank chained the doors at Walden and they are unable to get a hold
of anyone regarding existing orders. I think I'll scratch them off my
list. My next choice was a Skerray and I was told there was a
distributor change going on and the new dist was possibly in RI. So
more uncertainty. I live in Pittsford if you wouldn't mind I would
like to take a look at your boat if you live in the area. I don't seem
to be having much luck. Perhaps I should stick with CD,WS or other
large mfgs? You can reply @ .

"vee" wrote in news:1101997353.066346.14610
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

Thanks to both of you. From your feedback I surmise that the Skerray
would be the best choice but the Walden Passage is a good boat until I
figure out what I want be when I grow up. I live in W.NY and my initial
usage will probably be a mix of finger lakes, small rivers and the
canal.

I'm a bit south of you but still in your neck of the woods (Ithaca)
These trips will probably be evenings after work, 1/2 day
Saturdays and a rare overnight. I have not tried the Passage but will
attempt to locate one. I have tried the smaller Waldens at Bay Creek
but found the deck height too low to get comfortable.

The deck height is something that can take getting used to if you've
primarily paddled recreational boats up to now. If the foredeck feels too
low check your posture. Many seats on rec boats tend to encourage a bit of
a slouch. Leaning back against the seat with your knees bent up is not a
efficient paddling posture. If you sit upright with just your butt against
the seat back and lean slightly forward it will lower your legs and you
might find the deck height less restrictive.

I don't have any
rolling skills so the mention that it rolls well was encouraging
because i was concerned about the width 24".

I was surprised that it rolled so well. There are easier boats to learn how
to roll in but the Passage would not bee too restrictive to learning.


I am in my 50's , 5'10
,190# and size 10 shoes. Fit has been the issue with some other boats.
I tried a CD Squamish and it felt tight that's why I asked about the
Sirocco. Based on price the Passage is a winner and if $ were not an
issue to the Skerray would be the way to go?

Someone else mentioned an VCP Avocet. If the place you are looking at that
has the Skerray also has an Avocet I'd recommend trying one. Even though
I've paddled a Skerray for seven years or so if I were to choose between a
Skerray RM or an Avocet I'd get the Avocet.

My concern is probably
the same as other first time buyers afraid to buy too low or too much
for our beginning usage. Thanks for sharing your experience.

I more depends on how you want to use the boat. If you're primarily just
going to be paddling casually the Passage will be fine. If you're hoping to
improve your skills so that you can paddle more challenging conditions you
might consider a more challenging boat.

In a previous article, John Fereira said:
Sirocco. Based on price the Passage is a winner and if $ were not an
issue to the Skerray would be the way to go?

Someone else mentioned an VCP Avocet. If the place you are looking at that
has the Skerray also has an Avocet I'd recommend trying one. Even though

Yes, they do - at least this summer they had two of them. I generally
paddled one and my wife paddled the other. I liked the Avocet better than
the rental Skerray generally but was told that a big guy like me (6'2",
250lbs) would probably be happier in a Skerray. Then I tried the "for
sale" Skerray, and realized that the things I liked best about the Avocet
(a really snug seat so I could move the boat around better with my hips,
good thigh pads, easier to use skeg control, a coaming that didn't cut
into your hands when you picked the boat up) were also present in the
Skerray, just not the one I'd been renting (which was a trade-in and had
been heavily customized by the previous owner).


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
D: is just a data disk. That's why it's called "D", for "DATA".
C: is the Windows OS disk, so it's called "C", for "CRAP".
-- David P. Murphy

vee wrote:
Thanks to both of you. From your feedback I surmise that the Skerray
would be the best choice but the Walden Passage is a good boat until I
figure out what I want be when I grow up. I live in W.NY and my initial
usage will probably be a mix of finger lakes, small rivers and the
canal. These trips will probably be evenings after work, 1/2 day
Saturdays and a rare overnight. I have not tried the Passage but will
attempt to locate one. I have tried the smaller Waldens at Bay Creek
but found the deck height too low to get comfortable. I don't have any
rolling skills so the mention that it rolls well was encouraging
because i was concerned about the width 24". I am in my 50's , 5'10
,190# and size 10 shoes. Fit has been the issue with some other boats.
I tried a CD Squamish and it felt tight that's why I asked about the
Sirocco. Based on price the Passage is a winner and if $ were not an
issue to the Skerray would be the way to go? My concern is probably
the same as other first time buyers afraid to buy too low or too much
for our beginning usage. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Wow, this is serious Deja-vu. I bought my Passage knowing that it was
not going to be my first-and-last boat. I fully expected that I would
end up buying something else in relatively short order, which in my case
was 9 months later. Like you, I expected to paddle mainly small to
medium sized fresh water bodies and felt the more compact size of the
Passage would be ideal. I also thought that I needed a really high
foredeck (I have a 36" inseam). Here's what I learned:

- I was right that it was not my be-all, end-all boat. I've owned a
total of ten boats in the five years I've been paddling. All of the
commercial boat except the Passage were purchased used and I've built
three skin-on-frame boats.

- My intention of staying on smaller waters didn't last long. The
ocean's more interesting coast and more "textured" waters drew me in
quickly. Although you may not travel to the coast, you're likely to be
looking for larger waters fairly quickly.

- Shorter is not always better, even in small waters. Although the
Skerray is 27" longer than the Passage, it's more maneuverable, which is
often the bigger consideration on smaller bodies of water.

- I definitely DON'T need a high foredeck. Even before I embraced
Greenland paddling and the low volume boats that go with it, I realized
that I didn't need a 13" foredeck, as I originally surmised. As John
pointed out, paddling form has everything to do with it. Although I
don't necessarily expect that you will end up paddling in the same style
I do, I've now gotten to the point that I pad my boats to provide no
more than 8" of space below the foredeck (I prefer ~7 1/2"), or build
them that way. The upshot is that you probably won't feel the same way
about foredeck height after you paddle for a while.

Please understand that I'm not trying to cram you into my mold, just
offering a perspective on what you're likely to discover going forward.

Do people think the Tempest fits into this mix? If so what would the
pros and cons of it be against the others?

Thanks to all for your advice. I recently purchased a new VCP Skerray
RMX.

"vee" wrote in news:1103763475.176147.316350
@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

Thanks to all for your advice. I recently purchased a new VCP Skerray
RMX.


Congrats. I think it'll be a kayak that you can enjoy for a long time. If
you're the guy that is from the Rochester area, come on down to Ithaca
sometime next summer for a paddle.