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And equally the illegality of preventing prayer in a public school.
Can you give even a single example where a student has been prevented from praying, as an individual, in a public school? What is unconstitutional is for the teacher to lead the class in prayer as a part of the school day, or to require that students recite a particular prayer in unison. Many schools even allow the formation of bible study groups that meet before or after school. Outside of the normal school day, there isn't a problem with a teacher serving as the advisor to such a group. Most people who feel it's important for kids to pray in school and who believe their kids will get a better education if everybody they are in school with follows the same religion send their kids to private school. No problem. They can pray for 45 minutes and study for 15 every hour, if they so choose. |
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... And equally the illegality of preventing prayer in a public school. Can you give even a single example where a student has been prevented from praying, as an individual, in a public school? And prior to the ban can you cite any examples of students being forced to pray against their will? |
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:29:29 -0500, Dave Hall
wrote: On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:04:18 -0500, JohnH wrote: Who are you calling 'fundies'? Anyone with traditional values and morals. A label the left hopes to tarnish. I hope you aren't putting anyone who has a conservative bent into the 'fundie' category. Most of us are not 'fundies' and have no problem with the illegality of requiring prayer in a public school. And equally the illegality of preventing prayer in a public school. The prevention of prayer in a public school is an impossibility, whether legal or not. The prevention of *public* prayer in *public* schools is the correct thing to do. John H On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD, on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! |
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A couple of traits often exhibited by "fundies" can include:
1) insisting the the United States is a "Christian" nation........ This country was founded by and became the predominate home to Christian following people. Thanks for proving my point. Sort of like saying that this is a English speaking country No, it isn't. A common language is different than a common religion. A common language provides a means for sharing thoughts and ideas- a common religion requires that all those thoughts and ideas will be essentially the same. Majority rules should apply in all public ceremonies or traditions religious or otherwise. No town's traditions should be held hostage to whims of the minority. Damn that pesky Consitution, anyway. What were the founders thinking? Just because the colonial immigrants to America came here to *escape* a society where the majority assumed religious dominance, formalized relationships between church and state, and informally or formally persecuted dissenters, what made them think the exact same system wouldn't be a rousing success in another society? That is entirely a perception issue. So now you would have the strong arm of government preventing the majority from practicing their faith, so that the minority can avoid feeling "uncomfortable"? Does your faith require you to begin every gathering with a formal prayer, and does your faith require you to pressure those who don't agree with your doctrine to join in- or be ostracized by their silence? When you conduct a sales or board meeting in the workplace, do you lead your fellow employees or managers in prayer? When you take your family out to dinner in a restaurant, do you all bow heads and say "grace" aloud for other diners to hear? I wouldn't presume to know what sort of religion you personally observe, but certain Christian groups hold the personal teachings of Jesus to be just about the final word in matters such as this. Were you a member of such a group, you might be familiar with two passages from the sixth chapter of the book of Matthew, where Jesus himself commented on "public" prayer. Here they are, in case they are new to you: "When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Most certainly, I tell you, they have received their reward." [remember that "the synagogues" were the primary place of public instruction in those days] "But when you make your prayer, go into your private room, and, shutting the door, say a prayer to your Father in secret, and your Father, who sees in secret, will give you your reward." Suppose Jesus meant to say go into "your public classroom", rather than "your private room"? Did he misspeak? Then there is the example of Jesus praying in the garden prior to his arrest. Not only did he go to an empty garden, in the middle of the night with just a few close followers, but withdrew even from them to be by himself during prayer. These passages may be meaningless to you, and I apologize if it was presumtptive to bring them up. As you insist that this is a Christian nation and that all citizens should accede to the will of the numerical majority in spiritual matters, I believe you are recommending that our kids be coerced into reciting Christian prayers rather than those of another religion. If that's the case, then the opinion of your major religious figure, (as recorded in the Bible), would have some relevance in this discussion, would it not? |
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:58:38 -0500, JimH wrote:
And prior to the ban can you cite any examples of students being forced to pray against their will? How about after the ban? http://www.americanvoiceinstitute.or...y-June%207.htm |
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:38:14 -0500, Dave Hall wrote:
This country was founded by and became the predominate home to Christian following people. That's a matter of fact, not a statement of religious intent. Sort of like saying that this is a English speaking country. The predominate language is English. You can speak something else, but it's not our problem if you can't follow the majority. I don't buy it. You lump all Christians together like they are homogenous, but that is not the case. While 52% of this country is Protestant, they are not all the same religion. Roman Catholics are another 24%, but according to this site, they are clearly not Christian. http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm Personally, I would think Catholics are Christian, but use the site to show there isn't an easy way to lump religions together. |
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:27:29 -0500, thunder
wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:38:14 -0500, Dave Hall wrote: This country was founded by and became the predominate home to Christian following people. That's a matter of fact, not a statement of religious intent. Sort of like saying that this is a English speaking country. The predominate language is English. You can speak something else, but it's not our problem if you can't follow the majority. I don't buy it. You lump all Christians together like they are homogenous, but that is not the case. While 52% of this country is Protestant, they are not all the same religion. Roman Catholics are another 24%, but according to this site, they are clearly not Christian. http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm Personally, I would think Catholics are Christian, but use the site to show there isn't an easy way to lump religions together. Hell, the Pope isn't infallible. I'm infallible. Just ask me. Later, Tom |
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:27:29 -0500, thunder
wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:38:14 -0500, Dave Hall wrote: This country was founded by and became the predominate home to Christian following people. That's a matter of fact, not a statement of religious intent. Sort of like saying that this is a English speaking country. The predominate language is English. You can speak something else, but it's not our problem if you can't follow the majority. I don't buy it. You lump all Christians together like they are homogenous, but that is not the case. While 52% of this country is Protestant, they are not all the same religion. Roman Catholics are another 24%, but according to this site, they are clearly not Christian. http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm Personally, I would think Catholics are Christian, but use the site to show there isn't an easy way to lump religions together. I've never known a Catholic who considered himself a "born-again" Christian. When I was a kid, I was taught that Christians encompassed two main groups - Catholics and Protestants. Protestants were Christians who had 'protested' against one or more teachings of the Catholic Church and broken away to form their own. As your site shows, some broke further away than others. Lutherans, as an example, hold many of the same beliefs as Catholics, and their services are much the same. John H On the 'PocoLoco' out of Deale, MD, on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay! |
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:27:29 -0500, thunder
wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:38:14 -0500, Dave Hall wrote: This country was founded by and became the predominate home to Christian following people. That's a matter of fact, not a statement of religious intent. Sort of like saying that this is a English speaking country. The predominate language is English. You can speak something else, but it's not our problem if you can't follow the majority. I don't buy it. You lump all Christians together like they are homogenous, but that is not the case. While 52% of this country is Protestant, they are not all the same religion. Roman Catholics are another 24%, but according to this site, they are clearly not Christian. Any religion which uses Christ as its centerpiece, IMHO is a "Christian" faith. They may differ in subtle forms of biblical interpretation, but they share the common element of Christ. The divide and conquer strategy won't fly in this case. http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm Personally, I would think Catholics are Christian, but use the site to show there isn't an easy way to lump religions together. Anyone is entitled to have an opinion. Anyone can put up a website. There are many people who have agendas. There are nutcases who are claiming that aircraft were't responsible for the attacks on 9/11, and that they were the result of missiles. Dave |
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:05:57 -0500, JohnH
wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:27:29 -0500, thunder wrote: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:38:14 -0500, Dave Hall wrote: This country was founded by and became the predominate home to Christian following people. That's a matter of fact, not a statement of religious intent. Sort of like saying that this is a English speaking country. The predominate language is English. You can speak something else, but it's not our problem if you can't follow the majority. I don't buy it. You lump all Christians together like they are homogenous, but that is not the case. While 52% of this country is Protestant, they are not all the same religion. Roman Catholics are another 24%, but according to this site, they are clearly not Christian. http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm Personally, I would think Catholics are Christian, but use the site to show there isn't an easy way to lump religions together. I've never known a Catholic who considered himself a "born-again" Christian. When I was a kid, I was taught that Christians encompassed two main groups - Catholics and Protestants. Protestants were Christians who had 'protested' against one or more teachings of the Catholic Church and broken away to form their own. That's pretty much the way I was taught as well. As your site shows, some broke further away than others. Lutherans, as an example, hold many of the same beliefs as Catholics, and their services are much the same. Episcopalians are even closer to Catholics. I jokingly refer to them as "Catholic lite"...... Dave |
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On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:55:18 -0500, Dave Hall wrote:
I don't buy it. You lump all Christians together like they are homogenous, but that is not the case. While 52% of this country is Protestant, they are not all the same religion. Roman Catholics are another 24%, but according to this site, they are clearly not Christian. Any religion which uses Christ as its centerpiece, IMHO is a "Christian" faith. They may differ in subtle forms of biblical interpretation, but they share the common element of Christ. The divide and conquer strategy won't fly in this case. LOL, people were persecuted for those "subtle forms of biblical interpretation". I am not trying to divide and conquer. Christians are *not* an homogeneous group, never have been. |
thunder wrote:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:55:18 -0500, Dave Hall wrote: I don't buy it. You lump all Christians together like they are homogenous, but that is not the case. While 52% of this country is Protestant, they are not all the same religion. Roman Catholics are another 24%, but according to this site, they are clearly not Christian. Any religion which uses Christ as its centerpiece, IMHO is a "Christian" faith. They may differ in subtle forms of biblical interpretation, but they share the common element of Christ. The divide and conquer strategy won't fly in this case. LOL, people were persecuted for those "subtle forms of biblical interpretation". I am not trying to divide and conquer. Christians are *not* an homogeneous group, never have been. Worry not...at some point in the not-too-distant future, various Christian groups will declare war on each other, and start shooting each other's followers for supremacy over the Divided States of Jesusville. They are, after all, not much different from the Sunnis and the Shi'ites. I plan to cheer on both sides. -- A passing thought: "The stone age was marked by man's clever use of crude tools; the information age, to date, has been marked by man's crude use of clever tools." -- Anon. |
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... thunder wrote: LOL, people were persecuted for those "subtle forms of biblical interpretation". I am not trying to divide and conquer. Christians are *not* an homogeneous group, never have been. Worry not...at some point in the not-too-distant future, various Christian groups will declare war on each other, and start shooting each other's followers for supremacy over the Divided States of Jesusville. They are, after all, not much different from the Sunnis and the Shi'ites. I plan to cheer on both sides. Harry's extremist viewpoint is reflective of those who are the movers and shakers in the democratic party. This is the reason their candidate lost, and why they lost seats in the house and senate. The majority of those who voted for Bush are not the right wing extremist Harry likes to talk about, they would have loved to vote for a moderate presidential candidate. Kerry was not that candidate. |
Worry not...at some point in the not-too-distant future, various
Christian groups will declare war on each other, and start shooting each other's followers for supremacy over the Divided States of Jesusville. They are, after all, not much different from the Sunnis and the Shi'ites. I plan to cheer on both sides. If history can be considered a guide to human nature (something that changes very little over time), that idea isn't oh so far out there. All the intra-faith European wars and massacres aside, we've had a fair share of similar incidents here in the US. A not so distant cousin of mine founded a religion just under 200 years ago, here in the United States. (His grandmother was a Gould from my Massachusetts line....) Seems that he and his followers ran into just a bit of trouble, expecially in the early years: From a source randmly selected from hundreds... http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/stu/dcann/exterm.htm "On October 27, 1838, Missouri Governor Lilburn W. Boggs issued an executive order that condoned the killing of Mormons residing in Missouri. It stated that "The Mormons must be treated as enemies and must be exterminated or driven from the state, if necessary for the public good. Their outrages are beyond all description. If you can increase your force, you are authorized to do so, to any extent you may think necessary." The execution of this order led to violent conflict and the eventual migration of the Mormons from Missouri to Illinois, where they stayed until their exodus to Utah." |
Gould 0738 wrote:
Worry not...at some point in the not-too-distant future, various Christian groups will declare war on each other, and start shooting each other's followers for supremacy over the Divided States of Jesusville. They are, after all, not much different from the Sunnis and the Shi'ites. I plan to cheer on both sides. If history can be considered a guide to human nature (something that changes very little over time), that idea isn't oh so far out there. All the intra-faith European wars and massacres aside, we've had a fair share of similar incidents here in the US. A not so distant cousin of mine founded a religion just under 200 years ago, here in the United States. (His grandmother was a Gould from my Massachusetts line....) Seems that he and his followers ran into just a bit of trouble, expecially in the early years: From a source randmly selected from hundreds... http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/stu/dcann/exterm.htm "On October 27, 1838, Missouri Governor Lilburn W. Boggs issued an executive order that condoned the killing of Mormons residing in Missouri. It stated that "The Mormons must be treated as enemies and must be exterminated or driven from the state, if necessary for the public good. Their outrages are beyond all description. If you can increase your force, you are authorized to do so, to any extent you may think necessary." The execution of this order led to violent conflict and the eventual migration of the Mormons from Missouri to Illinois, where they stayed until their exodus to Utah." Not far removed from some of the comments of the righties who post here and who greet those who disagree with them with the "advice" that they oought to leave the country. The gun-nutsies, of course, add their bit: leave the country...or else. -- A passing thought: .... Batches? We don't need no stinkin' batches! This signature was made by SigChanger. You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/ |
IF the majority of a particular
town or community are of a certain religion, that they be allowed to celebrate their religious traditions IN PUBLIC, without having to deal with a few minorities who can't seem to exercise the same principle of tolerance, that they want applied to them. We absolutely agree on this item. When a religious group wants to preach or proselytize, they should be allowed to have a reasonable number of props on display during the time they are actively preaching or proselytizing. Take Xmas Decs, for example. This is always a contentious issue. I believe that Christian groups who want to preach about a Virgin birth, etc etc, are absolutely entitled to do so- and in public. While preaching, handing out tracts, conducting a public prayer session, or what not in a public place such as a city park, it could be appropriate to have plywood cutouts of angels, camels, shepherds, etc on hand to "set the stage". It is not appropriate to store these religious artifacts in public space or at public expense between prayer sessions or speeches. It is not appropriate for the city to condone a passive display of these items outside the active exercise of free speech. It is not appropriate for the common purse of the entire community to pay for religious icons for one particular sect or faith, regardless of the number of adherents that faith might claim in the community. I'm not a bible scholar. Trying to "interpret" what Christ was "actually" saying is akin to trying to figure out which side of an issue John Kerry was on at any given time. I'll leave that circular and endless debate to those who have nothing else to accomplish. Does your minister know that you consider Jesus as much a flip-flopper as John Kerry? :-) That was the wind-up, and here's the pitch: If the teachings of Jesus are open to interpretation rather than absolute, how can *any* nation, even one you fantasize to be a "Christian" nation, hope to use those teachings as a foundation for secular law? Shouldn't the law exist independently from any specific religious teaching, (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan, Wiccan, etc) and leave the spiritual aspects of life up to individual conscience and interpretation? How can we create laws and social structures based on Christian teachings, even in a "Christian nation", when Christians have been killing one another almost unceasingly for the last 2000 years over disagreements about what the teachings of Jesus actually meant? Even if 70, 80, 90, or even 99% of the people agree on a specific religious interpratation, there's no reason to write that interpretation into the law. Society will observe that premise, (whether it is that each student should begin the school day by reciting the Lord's Prayer, or that no woman should seek abortion for any reason, or that same sex persons should not couple), in *exactly* the same proportion as percentage of people who hold that view. Mission accomplished. |
Gould,
Do you have a problem with a community who purchases and display non religious Xmas lights and/or Xmas trees on public property? "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... IF the majority of a particular town or community are of a certain religion, that they be allowed to celebrate their religious traditions IN PUBLIC, without having to deal with a few minorities who can't seem to exercise the same principle of tolerance, that they want applied to them. We absolutely agree on this item. When a religious group wants to preach or proselytize, they should be allowed to have a reasonable number of props on display during the time they are actively preaching or proselytizing. Take Xmas Decs, for example. This is always a contentious issue. I believe that Christian groups who want to preach about a Virgin birth, etc etc, are absolutely entitled to do so- and in public. While preaching, handing out tracts, conducting a public prayer session, or what not in a public place such as a city park, it could be appropriate to have plywood cutouts of angels, camels, shepherds, etc on hand to "set the stage". It is not appropriate to store these religious artifacts in public space or at public expense between prayer sessions or speeches. It is not appropriate for the city to condone a passive display of these items outside the active exercise of free speech. It is not appropriate for the common purse of the entire community to pay for religious icons for one particular sect or faith, regardless of the number of adherents that faith might claim in the community. I'm not a bible scholar. Trying to "interpret" what Christ was "actually" saying is akin to trying to figure out which side of an issue John Kerry was on at any given time. I'll leave that circular and endless debate to those who have nothing else to accomplish. Does your minister know that you consider Jesus as much a flip-flopper as John Kerry? :-) That was the wind-up, and here's the pitch: If the teachings of Jesus are open to interpretation rather than absolute, how can *any* nation, even one you fantasize to be a "Christian" nation, hope to use those teachings as a foundation for secular law? Shouldn't the law exist independently from any specific religious teaching, (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan, Wiccan, etc) and leave the spiritual aspects of life up to individual conscience and interpretation? How can we create laws and social structures based on Christian teachings, even in a "Christian nation", when Christians have been killing one another almost unceasingly for the last 2000 years over disagreements about what the teachings of Jesus actually meant? Even if 70, 80, 90, or even 99% of the people agree on a specific religious interpratation, there's no reason to write that interpretation into the law. Society will observe that premise, (whether it is that each student should begin the school day by reciting the Lord's Prayer, or that no woman should seek abortion for any reason, or that same sex persons should not couple), in *exactly* the same proportion as percentage of people who hold that view. Mission accomplished. |
Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote:
Gould, Do you have a problem with a community who purchases and display non religious Xmas lights and/or Xmas trees on public property? You mean like the big red & green lights that many cities have hung up over street intersections? They look very festive. DSK |
That was what I was talking about, there are many non religious Christmas
decorations used by cities and stores across the nation. "DSK" wrote in message ... Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote: Gould, Do you have a problem with a community who purchases and display non religious Xmas lights and/or Xmas trees on public property? You mean like the big red & green lights that many cities have hung up over street intersections? They look very festive. DSK |
DSK wrote:
Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote: Gould, Do you have a problem with a community who purchases and display non religious Xmas lights and/or Xmas trees on public property? You mean like the big red & green lights that many cities have hung up over street intersections? They look very festive. DSK In Chesapeake Beach, they use nautical decorations for the holidays. -- A passing thought: The definition of an upgrade: Take old bugs out, put new ones in. |
Gould,
Do you have a problem with a community who purchases and display non religious Xmas lights and/or Xmas trees on public property? There are many seasonal decorations, such as electric lights, that do not carry a specific religious connotation. No problem. I always get a kick out of the folks who claim the Yule Tree is a symbol of Christianity. It's more accurately a symbol of another religious tradition.... |
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:18:21 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote: My only point is that (right or wrong), whatever religious practices or traditions (Christmas) are commonly observed by the majority of the people, they should not be denied by the statistical minority. Dave Why not? Because logic dictates that the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. Dave |
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On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:10:15 -0500, thunder
wrote: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:55:18 -0500, Dave Hall wrote: I don't buy it. You lump all Christians together like they are homogenous, but that is not the case. While 52% of this country is Protestant, they are not all the same religion. Roman Catholics are another 24%, but according to this site, they are clearly not Christian. Any religion which uses Christ as its centerpiece, IMHO is a "Christian" faith. They may differ in subtle forms of biblical interpretation, but they share the common element of Christ. The divide and conquer strategy won't fly in this case. LOL, people were persecuted for those "subtle forms of biblical interpretation". I am not trying to divide and conquer. Christians are *not* an homogeneous group, never have been. This is 2004, not 1200. Dave |
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:39:38 -0500, Dave Hall wrote:
LOL, people were persecuted for those "subtle forms of biblical interpretation". I am not trying to divide and conquer. Christians are *not* an homogeneous group, never have been. This is 2004, not 1200. And still not homogeneous. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in576978.shtml |
Gould,
Thanksgiving is an formal day to give thanks to God. There you go, bracket creep already. Thanksgiving is a day to be thankful. For many that will mean being thankful to God. Others will be thankful to their ancestors, their neighbors, or another diety. When Washington proclaimed the original "Day of Thanksgiving" there was some reference to God. But it was more akin to "National Dairy Week", or proclaiming a single day "Superbowl Championship Team Day". Thanksgiving was celebrated off and on for the next 150 years. Some states would have a Thanksgiving day, others would not. There was no common day of observance throughout the country. I believe it was Franklin Roosevelt who proclaimed the third Thursday in November a national Day of Thanksgiving. I'll keep a sharp eye peeled this next week, but I don't see many publicly funded thanksgiving decorations and those that are out there would tend to feature early American settlers, (pilgrims), wildlife (turkeys), and maybe even a display of a harvest cornucopia. If there is a religion that worships pilgrims, turkeys, and vegetables, I'm not aware of it. Since Christmas and Thanksgiving are Federal and State Holidays, celebrating Religious holy days, hasn't the government officially endorsed these holy days? Christmas was never a legal holiday in the US until 1870. President Grant proclaimed Christmas a holiday via presidential decree. It's doubtful that this religious day would have survived a congressional debate or judicial review. Christmas was never envisioned as a federally recognized day by the framers of the constitution. Until the early 1800's, it wasn't even widely observed. Can you name a church that considers Thanksgiving a " high holy day"? A number of days throughout the year are declared holidays. Everybody gets Armistice Day off, whether they think peace is a good idea or not. Everybody gets President's Day off, whether they think Washington and/or Lincoln were good guys, or not. Most Christmas celebrations are entirely secular. Trees, Santa Claus, holly, drunken orgy Christmas parties, etc etc etc etc........most of the common trappings, have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus or Christian symbolism. Hard to make a case that Christmas, as celebrated today, is any sort of religious holiday for most of the participants. It is easier to make a case that when the Town of Smallville spends the public tax money on decorations of a religious nature- (and those that depict an event described in the Bible would certainly qualify as religious)- the government is promoting, or endorsing, the establishment of a particular religion. |
Because logic dictates that the needs of the many, outweigh the needs
of the few. Dave It's a matter of law, not logic. |
Yet these same people lump all those trimming under the same
"Christian" umbrella when they attempt to block its observance. Dave I believe you're wrong. A tree with lights on it just flat isn't a Christian symbol. I disapprove of public dollars spent to put up mangers, angels, etc. Those types of decorations belong in the front yards of churches and homes, where a publicly viewed display is completely appropriate and brightens the season a bit. I have no problem with a decorated tree. The religion that venerates trees, and brings one indoors in the dead of winter to cover it with "jewelry" and other offerings is all but dead throughout the world. Most people understand a decorated tree as a secular symbol today. Not so with the Nativity pageant. |
Our laws are loosely based on the laws of God as stated in the 10
commandments. Pop! (Sound of bubble bursting) Do a google search on Hammurabi. Note the date of the first codified laws. I know of no recent systemic cases of this Google up Belfast. But it makes no logical sense that the minority should be able to override the wishes of the majority. Dave Or that the majority can disregard the Constitution or deprive even the tiniest minority of individual rights guaranteed therein. |
Gould, in the past I have accussed you putting blinders on, if the facts do
not fit your view of the world. You are now rewriting history to suite your political agenda. The real history of Thanksgiving is below: General George Washington and his army, as instructed by the Continental Congress, stopped in bitter weather in the open fields on their way to Valley Forge. And, Washington, as the nation's first President, declared November 26, 1789, as a national day of "thanksgiving and prayer." A few months after his inauguration, Washington issued "Presidential Proclamation Number One", his Thanksgiving as the first President. He voiced his personal conviction that "it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God." During the colonial regime Thanksgiving proved to be a significant event in promoting national unity. The first issue of the First Continental Congress as they met at Carpenters Hall was "Can we open the business with prayer?" Despite their diversity of religions, after fierce debate, inspired by delegate Sam Adams, their first official act was prayer - with remarkable results. From the first day, miraculous unity seemed to have held the far-flung colonies together. Abraham Lincoln made the last Thursday in Nov. a National Holiday in 1863. Roosevelt changed the National Holiday to the 4th Thursday 'in November. Below I have copied Lincoln's Proclamation and all Proclamations from 1940 to 1949. You will see in every proclamation they are giving thanks and pray to GOD. Abraham Lincoln's Proclamation for the national day of Thanksgiving said: "The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequalled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle, or the ship; the axe had enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union. " THANKSGIVING DAY - 1940 BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION I, FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, President of the United States of America, do hereby designate Thursday, the twenty-first day of November 1940, to be observed nationally as a day of thanksgiving. In a year which has seen calamity and sorrow fall upon many peoples elsewhere in the world may we give thanks for our preservation. On the same day, in the same hour, let us pray: Almighty God, who hast given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honourable industry, sound learning, and pure manners. Save us from violence, discord, and confusion; from pride and arrogancy, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitudes brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues. Endue with the spirit of wisdom those to whom in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that, through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of the earth. In the time of prosperity, fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; Amen. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed. DONE at the City of Washington this 9th day of November, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and forty, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and sixty-fifth. FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT THANKSGIVING DAY - 1941 BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION I, FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, President of the United States of America, do hereby designate and set aside Thursday, the twentieth day of November 1941, as a day to be observed in giving thanks to the Heavenly Source of our earthly blessings. Our beloved country is free and strong. Our moral and physical defenses against the forces of threatened aggression are mounting daily in magnitude and effectiveness. In the interest of our own future, we are sending succor at increasing pace to those peoples abroad who are bravely defending their homes and their precious liberties against annihilation. We have not lost our faith in the spiritual dignity of man, our proud belief in the right of all people to live out their lives in freedom and with equal treatment. The love of democracy still burns brightly in our hearts. We are grateful to the Father of us all for the innumerable daily manifestations of His beneficent mercy in affairs both public and private, for the bounties of the harvest, for opportunities to labor and to serve, and for the continuation of those homely joys and satisfactions which enrich our lives. Let us ask the Divine Blessing on our decision and determination to protect our way of life against the forces of evil and slavery which seek in these days to encompass us. On the day appointed for this purpose, let us reflect at our homes or places of worship on the goodness of God and, in giving thanks, let us ray for a speedy end to strife and the establishment on earth of freedom, brotherhood, and justice for enduring time. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed. DONE at the City of Washington this 8th day of November, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and forty-one, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and sixty-sixth. FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT PROCLAMATION 2571 DAYS OF PRAYER : THANKSGIVING DAY AND NEW YEAR'S DAY BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION "It is a good thing to give thanks unto the Lord." Across the uncertain ways of space and time our hearts echo those words, for the days are with us again when, at the gathering of the harvest, we solemnly express our dependence upon Almighty God. The final months of this year, now almost spent, find our Republic and the nations joined with it waging a battle on many fronts for the preservation of liberty. In giving thanks for the greatest harvest in the history of our nation, we who plant and reap can well resolve that in the year to come we will do all in our power to pass that milestone; for by our labors in the fields we can share some part of the sacrifice with our brothers and sons who wear the uniform of the United States. It is fitting that we recall now the reverent words of George Washington, "Almighty God, we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy holy protection," and that every American in his own way lift his voice to Heaven. I recommend that all of us bear in mind this great Psalm: The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul; he leadeth me I the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies; thou annointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever. Inspired with faith and courage by these words, let us turn again to the work that confronts us in this time of national emergency : in the armed services and the merchant marine; in factories and offices; on farms and in the mines; on highways, railways and airways; in other places of public service to the Nation; and in our homes. NOW, THEREFORE, I, FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, President of the United States of America, do hereby invite the attention of the people to the joint resolution of Congress approved December 26, 1941, which designates the fourth Thursday in November of each year as thanksgiving Day' and I request that both Thanksgiving Day, November 26, 1942, and New Year's Day, January 1, 1943, be observed in prayer, publicly and privately. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed. DONE at the City of Washington this eleventh day of November, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and forty-two, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and sixty-seventh. FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT THANKSGIVING DAY, 1943 BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION God's help to us has been great in this year of march towards world-wide liberty. In brotherhood with warriors of other United Nations our gallant men have won victories, have freed our homes from fear, have made tyranny tremble, and have laid the foundation for freedom of life in a world which will be free. Our forges and hearths and mills have wrought well; and our weapons have not failed. Our farmers, victory gardeners, and crop volunteers have gathered and stored a heavy harvest in the barns and bins and cellars. Our total food production for the year is the greatest in the annals of our country. For all these things we are devoutly thankful, knowing also that so great mercies exact from us the greatest measure of sacrifice and service. NOW, THEREFORE, I, FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, President of the United States of America, do hereby designate Thursday, November 25, 1943, as a day for expressing our thanks to God for His blessings. November having been set aside as "Food Fights for Freedom" month, it is fitting that Thanksgiving Day be made the culmination of the observance of the month by a high resolve on the part of all to produce and save food and to "share and play square" with food. May we on Thanksgiving Day and on every day express our gratitude and zealously devote ourselves to our duties as individuals and as a nation. May each of us dedicate his utmost efforts to speeding the victory which will bring new opportunities for peace and brotherhood among men. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed. DONE at the City of Washington this 11th day of November, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and forty-three, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and sixty-eighth. FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT THANKSGIVING DAY, 1944 BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION In this year of liberation, which has seen so many millions freed from tyrannical rule, it is fitting that we give thanks with special fervor to our Heavenly Father for the mercies we have received individually and as a nation and for the blessings He has restored, through the victories of our arms and those of our allies, to His children in other lands. For the preservation of our way of life from the threat of destruction; for the unity of spirit which has kept our Nation strong; for our abiding faith in freedom; and for the promise of an enduring peace, we should lift up our hearts in thanksgiving. For the harvest that has sustained us and, in its fullness, brought succor to other peoples; for the bounty of our soil, which has produced the sinews of war for the protection of our liberties; and for a multitude of private blessings, known only in our hearts, we should give united thanks to God. To the end that we may bear more earnest witness to our gratitude to Almighty God, I suggest a nationwide reading of the Holy Scriptures during the period from Thanksgiving Day to Christmas. Let every man of every creed go to his own version of the Scriptures for a renewed and strengthening contact with those eternal truths and majestic principles which have inspired such measure of true greatness as this nation has achieved. NOW, THEREFORE, I, FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, President of the United States of America, in consonance with the joint resolution of the Congress approved December 26, 1941, do hereby proclaim Thursday the twenty-third day of November 1944 a day of national thanksgiving; and I call upon the people of the United States to observe it by bending every effort to hasten the day of final victory and by offering to God our devout gratitude for His goodness to us and to our fellow men. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed. DONE at the City of Washington this first day of November in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and forty-four and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and sixty-ninth. FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT THANKSGIVING DAY, 1945 BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION In this year of our victory, absolute and final, over German fascism and Japanese militarism; in this time of peace so long awaited, which we are determined with all the United Nations to make permanent; on this day of our abundance, strength, and achievement; let us give thanks to Almighty Providence for these exceeding blessings. We have won them with the courage and the blood of our soldiers, sailors, and airmen. We have won them by the sweat and ingenuity of our workers, farmers, engineers, and industrialists. We have won them with the devotion of our women and children. We have bought them with the treasure of our rich land. But above all we have won them because we cherish freedom beyond riches and even more than life itself. We give thanks with the humility of free men, each knowing it was the might of no one arm but of all together by which we were saved. Liberty knows no race, creed, or class in our country or in the world. In unity we found our first weapon, for without it, both here and abroad, we were doomed. None have known this better than our very gallant dead, none better than their comrade, Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Our thanksgiving has the humility of our deep mourning for them, our vast gratitude to them. Triumph over the enemy has not dispelled every difficulty. Many vital and far-reaching decisions await us as we strive for a just and enduring peace. We will not fail if we preserve, in our own land and throughout the world, that same devotion to the essential freedoms and rights of mankind which sustained us throughout the war and brought us final victory. NOW, THEREFORE, I, HARRY S. TRUMAN, President of the United States of America, in consonance with the joint resolution of Congress approved December 26, 1941, do hereby proclaim Thursday November 22, 1945, as a day of national thanksgiving. May we on that day, in our homes and in our places of worship, individually and as groups, express our humble thanks to Almighty God for the abundance of our blessings and may we on that occasion rededicate ourselves to those high principles of citizenship for which so many splendid Americans have recently given all. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed. DONE at the City of Washington 12th day of November in the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred forty-five and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and seventieth. HARRY S. TRUMAN THANKSGIVING DAY, 1946 BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION At this season, when the year is drawing to a close, tradition suggests and our hearts require that we render humble devotion to Almighty God for the mercies bestowed upon us by His goodness. Devoutly grateful to Divine Providence for the richness of our endowment and the many blessings received, may we continue to give a good account of our stewardship by utilizing our resources in the service of mankind. May we have the vision and courage to accept and discharge honorably the responsibilities inherent in our strength by consecrating ourselves to the attainment of a better world. NOW, THEREFORE, I, HARRY S. TRUMAN, President of the United States of America, in consonance with the joint resolution of Congress approved December 26, 1941, do hereby proclaim Thursday, November 28, 1946, as a day of national thanksgiving; and I call upon the people of this Nation to observe that day by offering thanks to God for the bounties vouchsafed us, and by rededicating ourselves to the preservation of the "Blessings of Liberty" envisaged by our forefathers in the preamble to the Constitution. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed. DONE at the City of Washington this 28th day of October in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and forty-six and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and seventy-first. HARRY S. TRUMAN THANKSGIVING DAY, 1947 BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION Older than our nation itself is the hallowed custom of resting from our labors for one day at harvest time and of dedicating that day to expressions of gratitude to Almighty God for the many blessings which He has heaped upon us. Now, as the cycle of the year nears completion, it is fitting that we should lift up our hearts again in special prayers. May our thanksgiving this year be tempered by humility, by sympathy for those who lack abundance, and by compassion for those in want. As we express appreciation in prayer for our magnificent gifts, may we remember that it is more blessed to give than to receive; and may we manifest our remembrance of that precept by generously sharing our bounty with needy people of other nations. NOW, THEREFORE, I, HARRY S. TRUMAN, President of the United States of America, invite the attention of all citizens to the joint resolution of Congress approved December 26, 1941, which designates the fourth Thursday in November of each year as Thanksgiving Day; I proclaim Thursday, November 27, 1947, as a day of national thanksgiving; and I call upon the people of the United States of every faith to consecrate that day to thoughts of gratitude, acts of devotion, and a firm resolve to assist in the efforts being made by religious groups and other bodies to aid the undernourished, the sick, the aged, and all sufferers in war-devastated lands. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed. DONE at the City of Washington this 10th day of November in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and forty-seven, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and seventy-second. HARRY S. TRUMAN THANKSGIVING DAY, 1948 BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION As the traditional day of thanksgiving approaches, our thoughts incline, as in previous years, to the richness of our blessings. The spiritual endowments of our country are undiminished; we may, as always, walk as free men unafraid. Our harvests have been bountiful, our production of goods abundant. Our resources have permitted us to aid the needy and helpless of other lands. We are privileged to participate in international efforts to advance human welfare. We are profoundly grateful for the existence of an international forum where differences among nations may be submitted to world opinion with a view to harmonious adjustment. We pray this year not only in the spirit of thanksgiving but also as suppliants for wisdom in our approach to the problems confronting this Nation. Believing in the dignity of man and his right to live in freedom and peace, we ask divine guidance in helping to safeguard these gifts for ourselves and other peoples of the earth. NOW, THEREFORE, I, HARRY S. TRUMAN, President of the United States of America, in consonance with the joint resolution of Congress approved December 26, 1941, designating the fourth Thursday of November in each year as Thanksgiving Day, do hereby proclaim Thursday, November 25, 1948, as a day of national thanksgiving; and I call upon our citizens to observe that day by giving thanks to Almighty God for the bounties which have been bestowed upon our Nation and by resolving to render generous assistance to the hungry and homeless in other lands, thus renewing our devotion to the cause of good-will among men. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed. DONE at the City of Washington this 12th day of November in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and forty-eight, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and seventy-third. HARRY S. TRUMAN THANKSGIVING DAY, 1949 BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - A PROCLAMATION In accordance with our cherished custom, let us pause from our labors for one day in this autumnal season and offer prayers of thanks to the Divine Giver of our bounty. We are grateful for the plentiful harvests of our fields, for the abundance of goods produced by our industries, and for the multitude of spiritual blessings which enrich our lives. We are thankful that our resources enable us to aid the peoples of other countries in the furtherance of economic well-being and security. We deeply appreciate the strength of our democratic institutions and the preservation of those ideals of liberty and justice which form the basis of national stability and international peace. The times demand more than the wisdom of man can provide. There should be in the hearts of all good men and true a realization that as the Psalmist said : "There is no king saved by the multitude of an host; a mighty man is not delivered by much strength." Humbly grateful for these benefactions, may we add to our prayers of thanksgiving a plea for divine guidance of the leaders of our Nation and the leaders of all other nations in their efforts to promote peace and freedom for all men. NOW, THEREFORE, I, HARRY S. TRUMAN, President of the United States of America, having in mind the joint congressional resolution of December 26, 1941, which made the fourth Thursday in November a legal holiday, do hereby proclaim Thursday, November 24, 1949, as Thanksgiving Day, and I urge all citizens to observe the day with reverence. Let us, on the appointed day, in our homes and in our accustomed places of worship, give thanks to Almighty God for the blessings which have signalized our lot as a Nation, and let us ask for the gift of wisdom in our striving for a better world. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States of America to be affixed. DONE at the City of Washington this 10th day of November in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and forty-nine, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and seventy-fourth. HARRY S. TRUMAN "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Gould, Thanksgiving is an formal day to give thanks to God. There you go, bracket creep already. Thanksgiving is a day to be thankful. For many that will mean being thankful to God. Others will be thankful to their ancestors, their neighbors, or another diety. When Washington proclaimed the original "Day of Thanksgiving" there was some reference to God. But it was more akin to "National Dairy Week", or proclaiming a single day "Superbowl Championship Team Day". Thanksgiving was celebrated off and on for the next 150 years. Some states would have a Thanksgiving day, others would not. There was no common day of observance throughout the country. I believe it was Franklin Roosevelt who proclaimed the third Thursday in November a national Day of Thanksgiving. I'll keep a sharp eye peeled this next week, but I don't see many publicly funded thanksgiving decorations and those that are out there would tend to feature early American settlers, (pilgrims), wildlife (turkeys), and maybe even a display of a harvest cornucopia. If there is a religion that worships pilgrims, turkeys, and vegetables, I'm not aware of it. Since Christmas and Thanksgiving are Federal and State Holidays, celebrating Religious holy days, hasn't the government officially endorsed these holy days? Christmas was never a legal holiday in the US until 1870. President Grant proclaimed Christmas a holiday via presidential decree. It's doubtful that this religious day would have survived a congressional debate or judicial review. Christmas was never envisioned as a federally recognized day by the framers of the constitution. Until the early 1800's, it wasn't even widely observed. Can you name a church that considers Thanksgiving a " high holy day"? A number of days throughout the year are declared holidays. Everybody gets Armistice Day off, whether they think peace is a good idea or not. Everybody gets President's Day off, whether they think Washington and/or Lincoln were good guys, or not. Most Christmas celebrations are entirely secular. Trees, Santa Claus, holly, drunken orgy Christmas parties, etc etc etc etc........most of the common trappings, have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus or Christian symbolism. Hard to make a case that Christmas, as celebrated today, is any sort of religious holiday for most of the participants. It is easier to make a case that when the Town of Smallville spends the public tax money on decorations of a religious nature- (and those that depict an event described in the Bible would certainly qualify as religious)- the government is promoting, or endorsing, the establishment of a particular religion. |
Below I have copied Lincoln's Proclamation and all Proclamations from 1940
to 1949. You will see in every proclamation they are giving thanks and pray to GOD. So, is that the Catholic God, the Protestant God, the Born Again God, the Jewish God, the Muslim God, or could it be the God of any modern, monotheistic faith? One could give thanks to "God" in any number of religions. Mixing Thanksgiving with Christmas is clever, but not accurate. The God in the religious version of Christmas is not the Jewish God, the Muslim God, etc. Only that portion of the Christian Trinity represented by Jesus. The Christmas Story isn't even acknowledged by several branches of Christianity. Incidentally, Muslims revere Jesus very much like Christians respect Moses, David, John the Baptist, or what not. You *might* even find a version of the Christmas story in the Koran- (I don't know)- but that doesn't make the Christmas story a "religious" event for them. Until we rewrite the constitution there is no room for the government to spend tax dollars promoting one religious faith or another. |
Gould,
There is only one God. The different religions are different culture's way of understanding that one God. I am glad you don't have problems with the concept of God, that is a step in the right direction. ; ) "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Below I have copied Lincoln's Proclamation and all Proclamations from 1940 to 1949. You will see in every proclamation they are giving thanks and pray to GOD. So, is that the Catholic God, the Protestant God, the Born Again God, the Jewish God, the Muslim God, or could it be the God of any modern, monotheistic faith? One could give thanks to "God" in any number of religions. Mixing Thanksgiving with Christmas is clever, but not accurate. The God in the religious version of Christmas is not the Jewish God, the Muslim God, etc. Only that portion of the Christian Trinity represented by Jesus. The Christmas Story isn't even acknowledged by several branches of Christianity. Incidentally, Muslims revere Jesus very much like Christians respect Moses, David, John the Baptist, or what not. You *might* even find a version of the Christmas story in the Koran- (I don't know)- but that doesn't make the Christmas story a "religious" event for them. Until we rewrite the constitution there is no room for the government to spend tax dollars promoting one religious faith or another. |
Harry,
Thanks for making my point for me. The celebration of Christmas by communities and local governments, and the Proclamation of giving Thanks to God (Thanksgiving) should not be prohibited by our government. Now that might be offensive to some atheist, but what the hell, you can't please everyone. "Harry Krause" wrote in message news:1100636324.WXJ83E2IMageQdK2+IIbCw@teranews... Gould 0738 wrote: Below I have copied Lincoln's Proclamation and all Proclamations from 1940 to 1949. You will see in every proclamation they are giving thanks and pray to GOD. So, is that the Catholic God, the Protestant God, the Born Again God, the Jewish God, the Muslim God, or could it be the God of any modern, monotheistic faith? One could give thanks to "God" in any number of religions. Mixing Thanksgiving with Christmas is clever, but not accurate. The God in the religious version of Christmas is not the Jewish God, the Muslim God, etc. Only that portion of the Christian Trinity represented by Jesus. The Christmas Story isn't even acknowledged by several branches of Christianity. Incidentally, Muslims revere Jesus very much like Christians respect Moses, David, John the Baptist, or what not. You *might* even find a version of the Christmas story in the Koran- (I don't know)- but that doesn't make the Christmas story a "religious" event for them. Until we rewrite the constitution there is no room for the government to spend tax dollars promoting one religious faith or another. What? Christmas isn't for Christians? Blasphemy! BTW, Chuckster...does a certain poster here remind you of the Gallowsman of Atlanta? -- A passing thought: "I mean, if you've ever been a governor of a state, you understand the vast potential of broadband technology, you understand how hard it is to make sure that physics, for example, is taught in every classroom in the state. It's difficult to do. It's, like, cost-prohibitive." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., June 24, 2004 |
Gould,
There is only one God. The different religions are different culture's way of understanding that one God. While I agree with you in principle, somebody needs to tell the different religions. Seems we have a lot of people dieing every day because members of religion A, B, and C all have "competing" views of God. Just try to tell the average American fundie that God listens to the prayers of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and others just as readily as those of a WASP American. Go ahead, I dare ya. :-) |
"Dr. Dr. Smithers" wrote in message news:hwtmd.345911$wV.105244@attbi_s54...
Harry, Thanks for making my point for me. The celebration of Christmas by communities and local governments, and the Proclamation of giving Thanks to God (Thanksgiving) should not be prohibited by our government. Now that might be offensive to some atheist, but what the hell, you can't please everyone. So, you wouldn't find it offensive if a group that coveted, say Cheese Sauce, wanted the government to protect them from being prohibited? (Praise CHEESESAUCE!) |
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