E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

Anyone know how many Johnson E-Techs are out there and how have they faired
so far?

I'm a week or so away from purchasing a 50 hp and hate the idea of being the
first with new technology.
Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
RichG

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

"RG" wrote in message
...
Anyone know how many Johnson E-Techs are out there and how have they
faired
so far?

I'm a week or so away from purchasing a 50 hp and hate the idea of being
the
first with new technology.



The E-TEC's are out and running in the warmer climates. The boating media
has tested them for the last several months and reports will be published in
the next few issues. The following is from a person named Tony from
Australia who is getting his propped and set up correctly.

What size and make boat are you hoping to put the E-TEC on? I may be able to
post some performance results on similar rigs.

Bill Grannis
service manager
-------------------------------------

12-9-03

Bill,

My boat is a aluminium hull, Hull is 350 Kilograms plus one cranking
battery,2 troll motor batteries,troll motor and all the normal fishing gear.
Then the 138 Kilo's of the 75 E-tec.

You could call my hull a V-flared hull as it is ,very popular in Australia.
Glass hulls are just starting to make a entry into our market but very
slowly.
Any info you have would be interesting to read.
Thanks for your help.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-18-03

Today was it's maiden run, Beautiful day smooth water with just a little
breeze.

First thing I noticed was how dam quite the motor's idle and run. I could
not hear the motor from the bow of the boat when I was pushing off.

First prop was a 15" stainless not sure what type this was the boatyard
owner just wanted to see how it went. Out of the hole the 15" was Very Very
quick . Straight up to full noise saw the tacho at 5500rpm and about 40 Mph.
Now ALL of these speeds are on the motor speedo as my Eagle Gps would not
work. working all through the rev range was responsive and towy. Hard
turning at all speeds saw no slip or cavitation. And looking over the
transom and from other observations the motor needs to be lifted up another
hole. This will come on Monday's test run which we will have a GPS.

PROP 2-- SST 17" hole shot was still very good, Rpm's dropped by 200 and
speed increased by only about 1~2 Mph.But had to wind it out.
The Motor sounded like and to me,wanted to rev harder ,turning hard was very
good and again no slippage or cavitation.
Next test with the motor higher will give us more revs and better be able to
feel its true potential.
As told from this site the SST 17" will be the prop for me I think.

Took a 18" RAKER along to see what would happen, Well to no surprise it was
the worst out of the hole,went down to 4900~5000 Rpm, But this one you had
to wind right out and speed increased to floating between 46~47 Mph. With
more revs this prop would get you moving along quick but just to long to get
there. With the vented holes in the prop it would cavitate a little and slip
on hard turns and then bite in again. But after winding it out it was sweet
.. We just wanted to try it and have fun anyway.

Took the cowl off and very little oil had been used after nearly 2 hours of
use. No we don't have the Special oil in Australia as yet . So far this
motor is fantastic, quite through all rev ranges and I had a four stroke
before this motor. starting was instantaneous ,No smoke what so ever idled
ever so smoothly, I am E-tec cited. :-)

My next run will be with the motor lifted and do believe this will make a
hell of a difference to the performance. So stayed tuned.
Thanks for the help .

--------------------
Tony

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

"RG" wrote in message
...
Anyone know how many Johnson E-Techs are out there and how have they
faired
so far?


Damn! I hadn't had my morning coffee yet and missed the "Johnson" in the
post entirely. The E-TEC's are Evinrudes, the Johnson line consists of
4-strokes up to 225hp and traditional 2-strokes up to 175hp.

Bill Grannis
service manager.

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

re Johnson/Evinrude...no matter to me, I still see them as one company but I
do understand the internal differentiation.

The boat hull, alas, is STILL at the manufacturer. It is a 1989 hull and NO
ONE seems to have any statistics .. i.e. weight, etc.. I contacted the
manufacturer ( www.elpescadorboats.com ) but he recently bought the company,
and apparently no records were handy going back to when they stopped making
( 1990 ) this small sized tunnel hull boat.

I recently bought the hull because, ten or so years ago, I owned one of them
and loved its ride. That boat was equipped with a 55 h.p. Suzuki, and was
squatty in the rear end at rest, but needed no help getting up on plane and
running well across any water I pointed her.

The hull shape has a high bow, clean wave-cutting shapes, and then slides
off into a flat rear end with a tunnel cut in. Deep water if needed (
really, just might need it for a wind blown bay, rather than deep water) and
skinny water with the tunnel. It is a well regarded boat here on the Texas
flats.

I'll weigh the boat/trailer combination when they get done fixing a few
stress cracks in the hull. I'll subtract the weight of the trailer and I'll
have a pretty good weight / sans /engine to start with. The only dealer that
I found that knew anything about the smaller ElPescadors said a 50 hp was
what most of them ran back in the late 80's. Please take a look at the site
to see the hull shape, and tell me what you think. I much prefer small,
rather than large, engines for my use, which includes a lot of trailering 70
miles one way to go catch ( or try to ) a fish.

regards ( and I really do appreciate the help and input on this group).

RichG

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

ya...... Jonnyrude Inc hehe

-W (a Mercoholic)


"RG" wrote in message
...

re Johnson/Evinrude...no matter to me, I still see them as one company

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

Rich,

Having spoken with the factory service reps a number of times, they tell me
all the E-TEC motors are performing really well. I was told the only
significant item was shipping damage between the factory and their dealers.

I've also had the opportunity to drive a couple of boats with 50 hp E-TEC
installed. Three of us went for about a 10 mile test ride at a meeting.
It's astounding how quiet they are, we only had to raise our voices to talk
over the wind noise at full throttle! I also have some performance data on
a 40 hp E-TEC on a Carolina Skiff 20mpg @ 1000 rpm and 8.1 mpg @ 4500 rpm
cruise speed - I'm rather impressed with the fuel economy.

Best of luck with your new motor, please inform us how you like it once
you've had a chance to run it.

-John



"RG" wrote in message
...
Anyone know how many Johnson E-Techs are out there and how have they
faired
so far?

I'm a week or so away from purchasing a 50 hp and hate the idea of being
the
first with new technology.
Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
RichG

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

RG" wrote in message
...

I'm a week or so away from purchasing a 50 hp and hate the idea of being
the
first with new technology.
Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
RichG



Check with your dealer as there is a 7 year extended warranty or a $4 per hp
rebate promotion on new Evinrude & Johnson motors 40hp and up. It is only
at participating dealers, so it would be good to check out.

What is the length of the boat that you have?

Bill Grannis
service manager

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

RG wrote:
Anyone know how many Johnson E-Techs are out there and how have they faired
so far?

I'm a week or so away from purchasing a 50 hp and hate the idea of being the
first with new technology.
Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
RichG



Don't under any circumstances buy one!! They're experimental at
best & just another EX OMC consumer ripoff at worst.

They are a "modified" ficht, they have in no manner dealt with the
root cause of the ficht failures (lean mixtures on poorly atomised low
pressure injection) & there are good reasons to think they too will fail
at a way too high rate. You could be one of the lucky ones but ...


Don't ever expect those that sell them to tell you anything but
rosy stories about them, gee Bill a Florida dealer was telling this NG
he'd never even seen a failed Ficht at the height of the Ficht debacle!!!

As for the claimed warranties there's the proof positive that
they're suspect.

just another view:-)


K

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

K Smith wrote in message news:bs68ps$9pr42$1@ID-
Don't under any circumstances buy one!! They're experimental at
best & just another EX OMC consumer ripoff at worst.

They are a "modified" ficht, they have in no manner dealt with the
root cause of the ficht failures (lean mixtures on poorly atomised low
pressure injection) & there are good reasons to think they too will fail
at a way too high rate. You could be one of the lucky ones but ...


Don't ever expect those that sell them to tell you anything but
rosy stories about them, gee Bill a Florida dealer was telling this NG
he'd never even seen a failed Ficht at the height of the Ficht debacle!!!

As for the claimed warranties there's the proof positive that
they're suspect.

just another view:-)

Please provide any data that backs up any of your wild allegations. If
they are "experimental at best", how are the public getting their
hands on them? Do you have any substantial evidence that they are,
indeed, "modified ficht"? What IS the failure rate you speak of,
exactly?
Because they give a decent warranty for once, they must immediately be
"suspect"?

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

K. Smith, I have similar questions: I realize I'm a relatively new to
posting in this forum, but could you enlighten me/us as to how you know:

1. "They are a "modified" ficht,"

2. "they have in no manner dealt with the root cause of the ficht failures
(lean mixtures on poorly atomised low pressure injection)"

and for that matter:

3. What is your definition of (or what do you consider) "low pressure
injection"?

4. Could you please tell us what the injection pressure of E-TEC are?

John

"K Smith" wrote in message
...
RG wrote:
Anyone know how many Johnson E-Techs are out there and how have they
faired
so far?

I'm a week or so away from purchasing a 50 hp and hate the idea of being
the
first with new technology.
Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
RichG



Don't under any circumstances buy one!! They're experimental at
best & just another EX OMC consumer ripoff at worst.

They are a "modified" ficht, they have in no manner dealt with the
root cause of the ficht failures (lean mixtures on poorly atomised low
pressure injection) & there are good reasons to think they too will fail
at a way too high rate. You could be one of the lucky ones but ...


Don't ever expect those that sell them to tell you anything but
rosy stories about them, gee Bill a Florida dealer was telling this NG
he'd never even seen a failed Ficht at the height of the Ficht debacle!!!

As for the claimed warranties there's the proof positive that
they're suspect.

just another view:-)


K

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

"John from Illinois" wrote in message
ink.net...
K. Smith, I have similar questions: I realize I'm a relatively new to
posting in this forum, but could you enlighten me/us as to how you know:

1. "They are a "modified" ficht,"

2. "they have in no manner dealt with the root cause of the ficht failures
(lean mixtures on poorly atomised low pressure injection)"

and for that matter:

3. What is your definition of (or what do you consider) "low pressure
injection"?

4. Could you please tell us what the injection pressure of E-TEC are?

John


John from Illinois,

Your first questions to Karen should be what her qualifications are, how
many FICHT's she has worked on, why she gets information from her "blokes"
but does not believe the factory, why she thinks FICHTs (later than 2000)
have problems, and how she knows anything about warranty numbers..

Most of the readers ignore her ramblings and rantings and ravings. You will
probably get 4 or 5 pages of cut and paste stuff from the last five years
that do not make any sense.

Bill Grannis
service manager

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

Billgran wrote:

"John from Illinois" wrote in message
ink.net...
K. Smith, I have similar questions: I realize I'm a relatively new to
posting in this forum, but could you enlighten me/us as to how you know:

1. "They are a "modified" ficht,"

2. "they have in no manner dealt with the root cause of the ficht failures
(lean mixtures on poorly atomised low pressure injection)"

and for that matter:

3. What is your definition of (or what do you consider) "low pressure
injection"?

4. Could you please tell us what the injection pressure of E-TEC are?

John


John from Illinois,

Your first questions to Karen should be what her qualifications are, how
many FICHT's she has worked on, why she gets information from her "blokes"
but does not believe the factory, why she thinks FICHTs (later than 2000)
have problems, and how she knows anything about warranty numbers..

Most of the readers ignore her ramblings and rantings and ravings. You will
probably get 4 or 5 pages of cut and paste stuff from the last five years
that do not make any sense.

Bill Grannis
service manager

I think Karen made the most revealing comments about herself recently
when she actually responded to questions about the diesel outboard motor
she imagines she manufactures.

We've been hearing about this damned motor from her for years. The only
photo I've ever seen of what she claims to be her diesel outboard shows
what looks like a clapped-out old Homelite outboard top end welded to a
jerry-rigged lower unit that looks as if it were made in a seventh-grade
shop class.

According to Karen herself:

1. She has no factory to manufacture these outboards.

2. She has no product literature about these outboards

3. She has been "manufacturing them" for several years, but has no
production numbers to offer

4. She has no distributors buying carloads of these engines

5. She has no dealers buying from distributors or even direct from the
factory. In fact, she is clueless about modern methods of distribution
and sales.

6. She has no significant news or magazine clippings to share that
indicate the outboard is in manufacture

Further

7. No one at either of the two well-known commercial enterprises in
Australia who handled diesel outboards (one imports Yanmars and the
other modifies Yanmars for the military) has ever heard of Karen
Elizabeth Smith or her "Taipan" brand of diesel outboard

8. The name she chose for her imaginary line of diesel outboards,
"Taipan," is in use by a manufacturer of tiny diesel model airplane engines

9. She is unwilling to supply a list of names of those who have
purchased one of these diesel outboards

10. She has no way of offering warranty service on these diesel
outboards if she ever does make and sell any.


Draw your own conclusions.







--
Email sent to is never read.

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

RG wrote:
Anyone know how many Johnson E-Techs are out there and how have they faired
so far?

I'm a week or so away from purchasing a 50 hp and hate the idea of being
the
first with new technology.
Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
RichG



Don't under any circumstances buy one!! They're experimental at
best & just another EX OMC consumer ripoff at worst.

They are a "modified" ficht, they have in no manner dealt with the
root cause of the ficht failures (lean mixtures on poorly atomised low
pressure injection) & there are good reasons to think they too will fail
at a way too high rate. You could be one of the lucky ones but ...


Don't ever expect those that sell them to tell you anything but
rosy stories about them, gee Bill a Florida dealer was telling this NG
he'd never even seen a failed Ficht at the height of the Ficht debacle!!!

As for the claimed warranties there's the proof positive that
they're suspect.

just another view:-)

Karen,

Your view stinks.While I normally just lurk, I can't stand your attitude to
reputable posters.
Why don't you offer a solution rather than the long boring posts spruiking your
biased opinion? And why don't you and your blokes build a better motor? By
reading your posts you certainly pretend to have the knowledge!
I saw the diesel outboard contraption you have been spruiking for years.If
that's a better motor than the ficht or e tech why don't your blokes bring it
to market?

I am not an OMC fan. In fact I worked for the competition for a long time. BUT
I hope they succeed. Their new products are doing well. I wonder how many you
personally have seen or worked on?

I am certain OMC would love to have you on board to solve all of their
problems. You can become a famous for turning around a wonderful company with a
great heritage.Now that would be something to be proud of.
Instead you spend your days in the newsgroup insulting nice people with your
spruiking instead of offering a solution. Do us all a favor and put you and
your blokes enormous knowledge to do some good instead of being so negative.

Thank you, Happy Holidays.
BR

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

John,

I'm no fan of Karen and as a Johnson owner and DFI fan considering
purchasing a new motor I've challenged her here to provide the kind of
backup info Bill and others have demanded... to no avail. However,
what I have decided is that right or wrong there's a sizable number of
people who are leery J/E in general and of Ficht/E-Tec in particular.
More importantly a portion of those would never buy one, new or used.
If you never plan to sell your boat, and you trust Bombardier and/or
the new owners then by all means who gives a sh*t about anyone else's
opinion. But if you ever plan to sell, you will cutting out a portion
of potential buyers and probaly will get a lower price if there's a
J/E on the back, and even more if its Ficht/E-tec.

Sorry Bill - I just call'em as I see'em, and selling a boat is a pain
enough w/o the added burden of a big 'ol question mark hangin on the
transom.

Even though I could probably save a few grand going w/ an E-tec (a
year ago my local J/E dealer qoted me a "deal" at $14,700 for a 225
that now I see on sale for $9950 plus gimmicks), I've decided to
re-power w/a Yamaha HPDI instead... unless I change my mind and decide
to squeak another year out of my carbuerated Johnson smoke machine...

FishFan

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

"Boatriggr" wrote in message
...

Your view stinks.While I normally just lurk, I can't stand your
attitude to
reputable posters.
Why don't you offer a solution rather than the long boring posts
spruiking your
biased opinion? And why don't you and your blokes build a better
motor? By
reading your posts you certainly pretend to have the knowledge!
I saw the diesel outboard contraption you have been spruiking for
years.If
that's a better motor than the ficht or e tech why don't your blokes
bring it
to market?

I am not an OMC fan. In fact I worked for the competition for a long
time. BUT
I hope they succeed. Their new products are doing well. I wonder how
many you
personally have seen or worked on?

I am certain OMC would love to have you on board to solve all of their
problems. You can become a famous for turning around a wonderful
company with a
great heritage.Now that would be something to be proud of.
Instead you spend your days in the newsgroup insulting nice people
with your
spruiking instead of offering a solution. Do us all a favor and put
you and
your blokes enormous knowledge to do some good instead of being so
negative.

Thank you, Happy Holidays.
BR

As a man of science and a neutral mercury owner, let me try to summarize
the background.

OMC was a large and well respected manufacturer of Outboard motors
(don't laugh clams) with stockholders and many long time employees.
Long about the time the EPA put emission limits on outboards they came
out with a line of outboards based on FICHT technology which they
purchased, along with the company, from its german inventors. FICHT was
based on a solenoid forcing gas through an orifice directly into the
cylinder.

At about the same time, 1998 model year, OMC had quality and reliability
problems, especially with the 150 hp Ficht motors. These and other
problems culminated with OMC filing bankruptcy and liquidating, with the
assets being purchased by Bombardier. During this difficult time OMC
and the boating press and allegedly some of the dealer related folks on
rec.boats were less than forthcoming about the scope and cause of the
problems. Several rounds of fixes were rolled out to the field, and
modifications were made to following years' models.

Now Bombardier is selling the line of motors and once again the public
is being told that the problems are in the past and the motors are
reliable. And there is this new or modified technology that is even
better. The press is writing glowing articles.

I am unaware of any comprehensive objective data available to the public
on the reliability and quality of various models and vintages of OMC
products. This is also true for Mercury, Yamaha, and all other brands.

Karen has a personal distaste for the dealer system, and in addition
believes that there is a fundamental problem which prevents an emissions
clean two stroke from being reliable. She says this is due to the high
heat produced by lean operation leading to detonation on throttle up.

The OMC employees, customers, and stockholders paid a high price for the
mismanagement and problems of the past. One cannot help feeling sorrow
for their experience. Who has the story right shall be revealed in the
next few years.

As an individual with no data except a past mea culpa from OMC
management, it is impossible for me to know what the truth is. I guess
you pays your money and you takes your chances.

del cecchi

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

My only question is how, how, how could you but and OMC product over a
Yamaha or Mercury product in this environment?
Maybe in 2 years you'll want to sell your current boat...

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

"Jim and Becky" wrote in message et...
My only question is how, how, how could you but and OMC product over a
Yamaha or Mercury product in this environment?
Maybe in 2 years you'll want to sell your current boat...

Very easily. First of all, Bombadier has been in the business a VERY
long time, with a long list of highly regarded equipment. Aircraft,
for one.
Also, there are millions of very nice running, no problems kind of
OMC's out there. I have one that is a 1974, 135 hp, and runs
fantastic, as it always has. How long has Yamaha been in the outboard
motor game? Answer, not NEAR as long as OMC. Mercury? There a decent
motor, just like OMC is. Yamaha? good motors, again, but very painful
to buy parts for.

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

Just MHO here, but in terms of resale value, buying and selling a boat isn't
any different than buying or selling a car. As soon as you pull off the
dealers lot, the equipments value begins to plummet. As technologies
advance in leaps and bounds it seems units only a few years old are already
obsolete. The used boat market appears to be flooded with "over-priced"
boats and motors. The only way to make them move is to drop the price.

Now regarding "OMC products", while there certainly are millions of units
still out there, there is no longer an OMC - they're history. The outboard
assets of OMC were puchased out of bankruptcy by Bombardier, who recently,
due to the slumping airline industry sold off the entire (and very
profitable) Recreational Products division, which not only includes Evinrude
& Johnson, but also Sea-Doo, Ski-Doo, Bombardier ATV and Sport Boats. (just
a slight clarification del). BTW, del brought up some excellent points, we
will all see where it goes in the next few years.

I am still compelled though to point out, it doesn't matter which product
brand you purchase, they all have their issues. For example on the fishing
tournament circuits here in the U.S., it seems that Mercury can't keep
Opti-Max's from swallowing reed valves, Evinrude has a recall for a fuel
rail and Yamaha appears to have an oiling issue with their HPDI causing
cylinder failures. The 4-strokes also have their issues with corossion and
stuck throttle bodies, which also required a safety recall. I saw a recall
or a bulletin for Honda's last year, something about a problem with the
engine block as I recall.

The Evinrudes have a 3-year non-declining warranty, the Yamaha's a 3-year
pro-rated warranty and I'm not sure what Mercury is offering at the moment
and I believe Suzuki's warranty is also pro-rated.

As with anything these days, it's always buyer-beware.

-John


"Jim and Becky" wrote in message
t...
My only question is how, how, how could you but and OMC product over a
Yamaha or Mercury product in this environment?
Maybe in 2 years you'll want to sell your current boat...

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

John from Illinois wrote:


I am still compelled though to point out, it doesn't matter which product
brand you purchase, they all have their issues. For example on the fishing
tournament circuits here in the U.S., it seems that Mercury can't keep
Opti-Max's from swallowing reed valves, Evinrude has a recall for a fuel
rail and Yamaha appears to have an oiling issue with their HPDI causing
cylinder failures. The 4-strokes also have their issues with corossion and
stuck throttle bodies, which also required a safety recall. I saw a recall
or a bulletin for Honda's last year, something about a problem with the
engine block as I recall.

My 2003 Yamaha F225 was just winterized, and I happened to see the
plastic bag full of little plastic parts that were part of the sticking
throttle recall. About 50 cents worth of parts, maybe.

While the mechanic had the hood off, I looked very carefully for signs
of any sort of corrosion that might be visible. Nothing. The hood does
fit tightly. I've had no issues with this engine in its first season.

I agree with your point that virtually *every* manufacturers' line of
new, high-tech engines, whether two cycle or four cycle, has had
birthing issues. We have lots of very active fishermen where we are, and
I see manynew Yamahas, Mercs, Evinrudes, fewer Hondas and some Suzukis
in the higher horsepower ranges. Mercs and Yamahas lead in sales.
Honda's problem is that it doesn't seem to have many packaging
relationships with boat manufacturers, so its market penetration up here
on Chesapeake Bay seems small. The few large (225 hp) Hondas I have seen
around seem to operate just fine.


--
Email sent to is never read.

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

As a man of science and a neutral mercury owner, let me try to summarize
the background.


(snip)

Del, that was nicely stated.

My biggest concern is that Bombardier has the marine engine portion of their
business on the selling block. This is the same business they bought just
three years ago out of OMC's bankruptcy, and the same business they advertised
as one they are investing in, in order to reassure potential customers.
Remember the Bombardier ads where the newly acquired motors all had to "pass an
audition."

So, here we are, just a short while later, and the company has a line of new
DFI motors. They are advertising that the the injector technology is different
and improved, and the metalurgy is different and improved, to withstand higher
temps. Frankly, that advertising claim gives credence to some of Karen's
long-argued points about Ficht. While Bomb and it's interested parties have
been telling us Ficht has been fine for a couple of years now, Bomb saw fit to
reengineer the engines in ways that specifically support Karen's past arguments
about inherent design flaws.

Hmmm. Maybe we need to give Karen some credit for sticking to her guns despite
enormous abuse by many here.

Also, when a company is selling off a division, it's not unusual for the
employees in that division to spend time worrying about what their future
holds, instead of thinking about quality control, engineering, production, etc.
That behavior, while natural and understandable, doesn't usually result in the
best products on the market.

E-Tec may turn out to be a good product. But, it's very hard to look at the
history and the current circumstances and conclude that it's as safe a purchase
as competing brands.


-- Rich Stern
www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

Rich Stern wrote:

Thanks for these posts, Del has always helped with research & unbiased
info; even back in the early ficht days, so I respect his views greatly,
even when we argue:-).

Rich has on well too many occasions tried to be the honest peace broker
within rec.boats & alas I've oft given him a hard time on account of it
so I certainly don't count him as a supporter (he banned me for a
month!!!:-)).

I say it's a measure of how straight a shooter he really is that he can
at least now entertain that our original worries "might" have had some
merit.

We were never "sure" of anything & certainly have no pleasure that OMC
rolled over with all those jobs in tow, however buying the latest
version of the same basic technology is risky.

Thanks to you both & have a special christmas.

K


As a man of science and a neutral mercury owner, let me try to summarize
the background.



(snip)

Del, that was nicely stated.

My biggest concern is that Bombardier has the marine engine portion of their
business on the selling block. This is the same business they bought just
three years ago out of OMC's bankruptcy, and the same business they advertised
as one they are investing in, in order to reassure potential customers.
Remember the Bombardier ads where the newly acquired motors all had to "pass an
audition."

So, here we are, just a short while later, and the company has a line of new
DFI motors. They are advertising that the the injector technology is different
and improved, and the metalurgy is different and improved, to withstand higher
temps. Frankly, that advertising claim gives credence to some of Karen's
long-argued points about Ficht. While Bomb and it's interested parties have
been telling us Ficht has been fine for a couple of years now, Bomb saw fit to
reengineer the engines in ways that specifically support Karen's past arguments
about inherent design flaws.

Hmmm. Maybe we need to give Karen some credit for sticking to her guns despite
enormous abuse by many here.

Also, when a company is selling off a division, it's not unusual for the
employees in that division to spend time worrying about what their future
holds, instead of thinking about quality control, engineering, production, etc.
That behavior, while natural and understandable, doesn't usually result in the
best products on the market.

E-Tec may turn out to be a good product. But, it's very hard to look at the
history and the current circumstances and conclude that it's as safe a purchase
as competing brands.


-- Rich Stern
www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

"del cecchi" wrote in message
...

As a man of science and a *neutral mercury owner*, let me try to summarize
the background.

I was already laughing at the oxymoron. The respected part was just an
after-giggle.


OMC was a large and well respected manufacturer of Outboard motors
(don't laugh clams)

-W

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

The objective data says:

High performance outboarding was, is, and ever shall be, dominated by
Mercury. :)

-W

"del cecchi" wrote in message
...


I am unaware of any comprehensive objective data available to the public
on the reliability and quality of various models and vintages of OMC
products. This is also true for Mercury, Yamaha, and all other brands.

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

Clams Canino wrote:

"del cecchi" wrote in message
...

As a man of science and a *neutral mercury owner*, let me try to summarize
the background.

I was already laughing at the oxymoron. The respected part was just an
after-giggle.


OMC was a large and well respected manufacturer of Outboard motors
(don't laugh clams)

-W



Del's a man of science? Does he have a doctorate in a hard science? Just
curious.



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E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
-

Del's a man of science? Does he have a doctorate in a hard science? Just
curious.

He claimed to be a "man of science" not a "doctor of science". Therfore,
he only requires a beleif in scientific principles of study and a penis.

-W

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

Clams Canino wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
-

Del's a man of science? Does he have a doctorate in a hard science? Just
curious.

He claimed to be a "man of science" not a "doctor of science". Therfore,
he only requires a beleif in scientific principles of study and a penis.

-W



Ahh, thanks for the correction. Which is more important?

And speaking of important, have you had a chance to use that Merc tech
manual and papers I sent you? Or are you still immersed in yesteryear's
technology?

Happy Holidays, by the way, and have a happy and safe new year. Aren't
you moving to a warmer climate soon?


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E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
-

And speaking of important, have you had a chance to use that Merc tech
manual and papers I sent you? Or are you still immersed in yesteryear's
technology?

Happy Holidays, by the way, and have a happy and safe new year. Aren't
you moving to a warmer climate soon?

The newest one I've done so far is a 1993 3 cylinder 90 run without water.
Yesteryears motors are where my money is, as the local shops won't touch
them. It's only a matter of time till an Opti pops up though.
Will move when the house sells, we got it on the market late and got stuck
here another winter.

-W

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

Clams Canino wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
-

And speaking of important, have you had a chance to use that Merc tech
manual and papers I sent you? Or are you still immersed in yesteryear's
technology?

Happy Holidays, by the way, and have a happy and safe new year. Aren't
you moving to a warmer climate soon?

The newest one I've done so far is a 1993 3 cylinder 90 run without water.
Yesteryears motors are where my money is, as the local shops won't touch
them. It's only a matter of time till an Opti pops up though.
Will move when the house sells, we got it on the market late and got stuck
here another winter.

-W

Well, be sure and let me know if you take a drive south for a look-see.
There's at least a couple of watering holes on the Bay that you might
like. If it's next spring, we can hit them by boat.



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E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

"Rich Stern" wrote in message
...

As a man of science and a neutral mercury owner, let me try to
summarize
the background.


(snip)

Del, that was nicely stated.

My biggest concern is that Bombardier has the marine engine portion of
their
business on the selling block. This is the same business they bought
just
three years ago out of OMC's bankruptcy, and the same business they
advertised
as one they are investing in, in order to reassure potential
customers.
Remember the Bombardier ads where the newly acquired motors all had to
"pass an
audition."

My understanding is that the sale of the recreational products group
which includes outboards along with snowmobiles and a bunch of other
stuff was a done deal, but that could be incorrect. too lazy to go look
at press releases at bombardier web site I am.

snip
del

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

"Clams Canino" wrote in message
news:J%rGb.451184$Dw6.1364311@attbi_s02...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
-

Del's a man of science? Does he have a doctorate in a hard science?
Just
curious.

He claimed to be a "man of science" not a "doctor of science".
Therfore,
he only requires a beleif in scientific principles of study and a
penis.

-W



Only a master's degree in EE. That hard enough?

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

del cecchi wrote:

"Clams Canino" wrote in message
news:J%rGb.451184$Dw6.1364311@attbi_s02...

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
-

Del's a man of science? Does he have a doctorate in a hard science?
Just
curious.

He claimed to be a "man of science" not a "doctor of science".
Therfore,
he only requires a beleif in scientific principles of study and a
penis.

-W



Only a master's degree in EE. That hard enough?


Works for me...you can understand the souls of these new machines.


--
Email sent to is never read.

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

del cecchi wrote:

"Rich Stern" wrote in message
...

As a man of science and a neutral mercury owner, let me try to
summarize
the background.


(snip)

Del, that was nicely stated.

My biggest concern is that Bombardier has the marine engine portion of
their
business on the selling block. This is the same business they bought
just
three years ago out of OMC's bankruptcy, and the same business they
advertised
as one they are investing in, in order to reassure potential
customers.
Remember the Bombardier ads where the newly acquired motors all had to
"pass an
audition."

My understanding is that the sale of the recreational products group
which includes outboards along with snowmobiles and a bunch of other
stuff was a done deal, but that could be incorrect. too lazy to go look
at press releases at bombardier web site I am.

snip
del



Members of the Bombardier family were among the purchasers:

Bombardier closes the sale of its recreational products business

Montréal, December 18, 2003
Bombardier Inc. today announced the closing of the sale of its
recreational products business to Bombardier Recreational Products Inc.,
a corporation formed by Bain Capital, members of the Bombardier family
and the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec. As previously announced,
the sale was closed for a total consideration of $960 million, $910
million of which was paid in cash and $50 million of which was paid by
the issuance of preferred shares from the purchaser’s parent company.

Cash proceeds initially evaluated at $910 million are impacted by
adjustments in the amount of approximately $160 million in favour of the
purchaser, to be made at and post closing, for variation in working
capital, pension plan funding and other off-balance sheet items.

In connection with the sale, the Corporation and the purchaser have
entered into certain other agreements, including a trademark licence
agreement under which Bombardier will license to the purchaser certain
trademarks which will continue to be owned by Bombardier. Those
trademarks include Bombardier*, Challenger* and the sprocket wheel
symbol. In addition, certain floorplan and other financing arrangements
have been entered into by the purchaser with Bombardier Capital.

The business sold to Bombardier Recreational Products Inc. includes the
activities related to Sea-Doo™ watercraft and sport boats, Ski-Doo™ and
Lynx™ snowmobiles, Johnson™ and Evinrude™ outboard engines, Evinrude
direct injection and Evinrude E-TEC™ technologies, Bombardier* ATVs,
Rotax™ engines and karts, as well as utility vehicles.

A world-leading manufacturer of innovative transportation solutions,
from regional aircraft and business jets to rail transportation
equipment, Bombardier Inc. is a global corporation, headquartered in
Canada. Its revenues for the fiscal year ended Jan. 31, 2003 were $21.2
billion Cdn. and its shares are traded on the Toronto, Brussels and
Frankfurt stock exchanges (BBD, BOM and BBDd.F). News and information
are available at www.bombardier.com.

N.B. 2002-2003 revenues have been restated following the sale of the
recreational products segment.

_____________________________________________

I hope they do well with the Johnson and Evinrude brand names. The fact
that the purchasers did almost the entire deal in cash money speaks for
the depth of their pockets.




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E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

Looks to me more like some kind of company splitting than an outside "sale".
Hmmm?

-W

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
del cecchi wrote:

"Rich Stern" wrote in message
...

As a man of science and a neutral mercury owner, let me try to
summarize
the background.


(snip)

Del, that was nicely stated.

My biggest concern is that Bombardier has the marine engine portion of
their
business on the selling block. This is the same business they bought
just
three years ago out of OMC's bankruptcy, and the same business they
advertised
as one they are investing in, in order to reassure potential
customers.
Remember the Bombardier ads where the newly acquired motors all had to
"pass an
audition."

My understanding is that the sale of the recreational products group
which includes outboards along with snowmobiles and a bunch of other
stuff was a done deal, but that could be incorrect. too lazy to go look
at press releases at bombardier web site I am.

snip
del



Members of the Bombardier family were among the purchasers:

Bombardier closes the sale of its recreational products business

Montréal, December 18, 2003
Bombardier Inc. today announced the closing of the sale of its
recreational products business to Bombardier Recreational Products Inc.,
a corporation formed by Bain Capital, members of the Bombardier family
and the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec. As previously announced,
the sale was closed for a total consideration of $960 million, $910
million of which was paid in cash and $50 million of which was paid by
the issuance of preferred shares from the purchaser’s parent company.

Cash proceeds initially evaluated at $910 million are impacted by
adjustments in the amount of approximately $160 million in favour of the
purchaser, to be made at and post closing, for variation in working
capital, pension plan funding and other off-balance sheet items.

In connection with the sale, the Corporation and the purchaser have
entered into certain other agreements, including a trademark licence
agreement under which Bombardier will license to the purchaser certain
trademarks which will continue to be owned by Bombardier. Those
trademarks include Bombardier*, Challenger* and the sprocket wheel
symbol. In addition, certain floorplan and other financing arrangements
have been entered into by the purchaser with Bombardier Capital.

The business sold to Bombardier Recreational Products Inc. includes the
activities related to Sea-Doo™ watercraft and sport boats, Ski-Doo™ and
Lynx™ snowmobiles, Johnson™ and Evinrude™ outboard engines, Evinrude
direct injection and Evinrude E-TEC™ technologies, Bombardier* ATVs,
Rotax™ engines and karts, as well as utility vehicles.

A world-leading manufacturer of innovative transportation solutions,
from regional aircraft and business jets to rail transportation
equipment, Bombardier Inc. is a global corporation, headquartered in
Canada. Its revenues for the fiscal year ended Jan. 31, 2003 were $21.2
billion Cdn. and its shares are traded on the Toronto, Brussels and
Frankfurt stock exchanges (BBD, BOM and BBDd.F). News and information
are available at www.bombardier.com.

N.B. 2002-2003 revenues have been restated following the sale of the
recreational products segment.

_____________________________________________

I hope they do well with the Johnson and Evinrude brand names. The fact
that the purchasers did almost the entire deal in cash money speaks for
the depth of their pockets.




--
Email sent to is never read.

E-Techs in the 50-hp range
 

Clams Canino wrote:

Looks to me more like some kind of company splitting than an outside "sale".
Hmmm?

-W

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
del cecchi wrote:

"Rich Stern" wrote in message
...

As a man of science and a neutral mercury owner, let me try to
summarize
the background.


(snip)

Del, that was nicely stated.

My biggest concern is that Bombardier has the marine engine portion of
their
business on the selling block. This is the same business they bought
just
three years ago out of OMC's bankruptcy, and the same business they
advertised
as one they are investing in, in order to reassure potential
customers.
Remember the Bombardier ads where the newly acquired motors all had to
"pass an
audition."

My understanding is that the sale of the recreational products group
which includes outboards along with snowmobiles and a bunch of other
stuff was a done deal, but that could be incorrect. too lazy to go look
at press releases at bombardier web site I am.

snip
del



Members of the Bombardier family were among the purchasers:

Bombardier closes the sale of its recreational products business

Montréal, December 18, 2003
Bombardier Inc. today announced the closing of the sale of its
recreational products business to Bombardier Recreational Products Inc.,
a corporation formed by Bain Capital, members of the Bombardier family
and the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec. As previously announced,
the sale was closed for a total consideration of $960 million, $910
million of which was paid in cash and $50 million of which was paid by
the issuance of preferred shares from the purchaser’s parent company.



Yeah, I don't know the structure of the new entity, but it sure looks as
if some family members wanted to stay in the marine rec business, and
the mama corporation helped make it so.

I've not smelled that kind of money. This past week, I got to watch as
nearly $160 million in cold hard cash was swept into a client
corporation's bank account via a single wire transfer, and it sure gave
me a woody. With that kind of cash, I'd buy myself an unlisted island.
Alas, it was other peoples' money.


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