"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
What does Osama bin Laden want? A confrontation with the West which will
be viewed as a war between Islam and Christianity.

Correct. And he planned on beating us by chasing us out of the Middle East,
controlling the World's oil supply, ruining our economy, and watching our
military strength decline with our economy. Meanwhile, he plans on working
OT to acquire nukes. Once he has those, he'll use them on us.

Islam and Christianity cannot coexist because the Quran directs Muslims to
either convert the unbelievers...or kill them.

Islam and Christianity cannot coexist because the Quran directs Muslims to
either convert the unbelievers...or kill them.


Would it bother you at all to know you are absolutely wrong about that? In
spite of what Rush Limbaugh insists?

Here's a discussion of this very issue that I swiped off the net. Authored by
some guy named digsalot.

**************

1 - Islam teaches to "kill the infidel

You have already given two examples of the Koranic scriptures in use
to attempt to establish this belief as fact by those who would foment
hate in the name of faith. I will not only repeat them here but will
give you many, many more. Then we will refute them and demonstrate
why they prove nothing.

ix:111 "Surely Allah has bought of the believers and their property
for this, that they shall have the garden [i.e. heaven]; they fight in
Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on
Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more
faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge
which you have made; and that is a mighty achievement."

ii:191 "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from
whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter,
and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with
you in it, but if they do fight with you, then slay them, such is the
recompense of unbelievers."

ix.5-6: "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find
them."

iv.76: "Those who believe fight in the cause of God..."

viii.12: "I will instill terror into the hearts of the Infidels,
strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every
fingertip."

viii.39-42: "Say to the Infidels: If they desist from their unbelief,
what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to it,
they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then
against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it
God's."

ii.256: "But they who believe, and who fly their country, and fight in
the cause of God may hope for God's mercy: and God is Gracious,
Merciful."

viii. 15, 16: "Believers, when you meet the unbelievers preparing for
battle do not turn your backs to them. [ Anyone who does ] shall incur
the wrath of God and hell shall be his home: an evil dwelling indeed
".

ix.39: "If you do not fight, He will punish you severely, and put
others in your place."

ix.29,30: "Declare war upon those to whom the Scriptures were revealed
but believe neither in God nor the Last Day ,and who do not forbid
that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who refuse to
acknowledge the true religion [Islam] until they pay the poll-tax
without reservation and are totally subjugated.

That should be enough for us to start with. As you can see, most any
of those standing alone may be used to back the statement that the
followers of Islam are commanded to "kill the infidel." It is a very
impressive aray of material for those who wish to push such a concept.

Some or all of these Koranic verses are being used by some angry
anti-Islamic speakers and clergy who point to them and say: "See, the
God of the Koran commands all Moslems to kill non-Moslems."

In a multi-cultural society such as ours, this is a very dangerous
thing indeed. When somebody tells us that our friend and neighbor,
who has always been friendly, helpful and kind, is secretly obligated
to kill us, many of us will begin to treat that friend and neighbor as
an enemy. The accusation that the Koran teaches absolute jihad
against all non-Moslems is the kind of charge that helped convince
Christians in Bosnia to turn on lifelong friends and neighbors and put
them in concentration camps.

To add to the fire, here are a few more Koranic verses:

Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them 2:191

Fight and slay the pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait
for them in every stratagem. 9:5

Slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that
they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have
a great punishment in the world hereafter. 5:34

And the Lord our god delivered him before us...and we took all his
cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men and the women and
the little ones, of every city we left none to remain.

Of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God give thee for an
inheritance, thou shall save alive nothing that breatheth.

Actually, I just lied to you, and in front of the whole world. The
last two verses are from the Bible. - Deuteronomy 2:33-4 and 20:16

I will be relating to them soon. There is a reason I put them here.

If you look at other verses in the Koran, you will find a contrasting
message. - "Even if you stretch out your hand against me to kill me, I
shall not stretch out my hand against you to kill you." - also - "If
anyone murders an innocent person, it will be as if he has murdered
the whole of humanity."

You will also find that if the verses from the Koran I used above to
demonstrate that the Koran teaches the followers of Islam to "kill
infidels" are placed within their context rather than standing alone,
they relate to defensive actions rather than aggressive ones. One of
the ones you used as an example, ii:191 contains the words "and drive
them out from whence they drove you out." The very nature of that
phrase itself makes it clear that the verse is related to defensive
action to take 'after' one has already been attacked. How so many
anti-Islamic people hearing those words, and how so many anti-Islamic
clergy who are spouting them, cannot realize what it is they have just
heard or have just spoken is far beyond my feeble brain to comprehend.

To illustrate the point, let's actually put ii:191 in context with
what comes right before and after:

ii:190 "Fight in the way of God those who wage war on you, and do not
commit aggression. God does not like aggressors
ii:191 "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from
whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter,
and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with
you in it, but if they do fight with you, then slay them, such is the
recompense of unbelievers.
ii:192 "Accomplish the Pilgrimage and visitation of the holy places in
honor of God, and if you are hemmed in by foes, send whatever offering
shall be the easiest, and shave not your heads until the offering
reach the place of sacrifice. but whoever among you is sick, or has
an ailment of the head, must expiate by fasting, or alms, or an
offering.
ii:193 "But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except
against wrongdoers. And one who attacks you, attack him in like
manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to God, and know God is
with those who ward off evil."

Now, even though ii:191 is used by anti-Islamic clergy as one of the
absolute proofs of Islam's command to "kill infidels," you can see
that when it is placed in context it is no more than "defensive"
instruction. The "kill them wherever you find them" relates back to
the aggressors of ii:190. - ii:192 gives instruction on how to
handle religious duties while "hemmed in by foes." - And ii193
instructs Moslems to lay down their arms if those who are attacking do
so. "But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against
wrongdoers."

Here is another example of how Koranic scripture is twisted to
establish a claim that Moslems are commanded to "kill infidels."

viii.12: "I will instill terror into the hearts of the Infidels,
strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every
fingertip."

Quoting that passage as a stand alone Koranic verse, as those who are
demonizing Islam do, is the same as saying Patrick Henry said "Give me
death." Of course we know that the real quote was "Give me liberty or
give me death," but when taken out of context it sounds ludicrous.

To explain how this Koranic passage is taken out of context, we do not
refer back to other text as much as we need to know the history of the
events it refers to and how it relates to the Koranic teaching itself.
I would venture to guess that very few of the anti-Islamic agitators
have bothered to find out.

First of all, look at the way it is written. Koranic passages such as
the ones dealing with defensive actions we already covered above read
as instructions. However, you will notice this one does not. It is a
first person narrative. "I will instill terror..." The passage
begins with "I." In this passage, it is God speaking about what "He"
is going to do. It is not speaking about what Moslems are supposed to
do.

Mohammed and his followers were attacked by surrounding tribes of
Pagans, not Christians or Jews. Incidently, this particular tribe of
pagans practiced human sacrifice by burying selected daughters alive.
Archaeological research has found much evidence of these people and
their practices. Such practices enraged Mohammed, but that is beside
the point here. In the verse cited, God is explaining how he plans
to help the Moslems to victory.

Now this chapter in the Koran is quite long and I'm not going to quote
the whole thing here. But the passage cited is verse 12. For those
who believe or teach that this particular passage refers to an unwise
or unfair God who condemns all non-Moslems to a violent death, simply
keep reading. When they reach verse 61, they will find - - "But if
the enemy incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace and
trust in God, for he is the one who hears and knows.

Not only does this verse not relate to any command for Moslems to
"kill infidels," it actually goes on to tell Moslems to 'stop' killing
even 'daughter sacrificing pagans' as long as the pagans are willing
to be peaceful.

We can continue this right on through any of the Koranic quotes used
by the anti-Moslem Christian clergy but I think you can now see why
doing so in this kind of format would entail the writting of an answer
that would be virtually a book. I think, perhaps, you can also see
why I said you have asked an "enormous question," one which will take
days to research and answer. Each of your 5 claims will need to be
addressed in a similar manner. And guess what? There is so much more
than can be done, that this response is still "shallow" and may well
still be considered "opinion."

You mentioned the people in the South and their ability to believe
this rubbish without checking things out any further. Please don't
just single out the South. This is a nationwide problem. It is
reprehensible, but none the less it is believed by millions of
otherwise good people.

If anti-Christians used the Bible in a similar manner (and many do),
they could convince many of their own that Christianity teaches its
followers to kill witches and stone to death disobedient children.
They could quote chapter and verse all the scripture that supports it.

Scriptural literalism can be a heavy moral burden to bear.

In as much as this is a "comment" rather than a formal answer, and
because of the fact that I will be using many of the same resources
over and over as I go through each "claim," I will simply post all
citations at the same time at the end as a single "bibliography."

I hope this has helped you somewhat with claim number 1.

cheers
digsalot

After reading that entire excuse-laden paragraph, I still come to the same
conclusion: Islam is not a religion of peace, and they're hell-bent on
destroying the unbelievers (ie--us)...particularly those who are living in
the Middle East. In fact, the author is trying to justify the violence in
the Middle East by saying that the Muslims are only acting in self-defense.

He also goes on to quote Deuteronomy to show how Christian religious beliefs
are just as violent. There's only one small problem with that analysis:
Deuteronomy is from the Old Testament...and Christians base their belief in
the teachings of Christ.

bin Laden claims that all of the attacks are done to get us out of Saudi
Arabia. However, we are there at the behest of the Saudi Royal family. If
they asked us to leave, I guess that we'd be beholden to leave. The violence
wouldn't stop, however, until the Jews were also expelled from Israel...and
that will never happen.

I must admit this: if we left the Middle East, *and* the Jews left Israel,
the violence would probably stop...at least for awhile. The terrorists
would have achieved their purpose...which is to evict the unbelievers from
"their" land. Do you think both will happen anytime soon? If not, then
we're in a war that will only escalate until they kill us, we kill them, or
we all die trying to kill each other.

I'm just being realistic, Chuck.








"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Islam and Christianity cannot coexist because the Quran directs Muslims
to
either convert the unbelievers...or kill them.


Would it bother you at all to know you are absolutely wrong about that? In
spite of what Rush Limbaugh insists?

Here's a discussion of this very issue that I swiped off the net. Authored
by
some guy named digsalot.

**************

1 - Islam teaches to "kill the infidel

You have already given two examples of the Koranic scriptures in use
to attempt to establish this belief as fact by those who would foment
hate in the name of faith. I will not only repeat them here but will
give you many, many more. Then we will refute them and demonstrate
why they prove nothing.

ix:111 "Surely Allah has bought of the believers and their property
for this, that they shall have the garden [i.e. heaven]; they fight in
Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on
Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more
faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge
which you have made; and that is a mighty achievement."

ii:191 "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from
whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter,
and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with
you in it, but if they do fight with you, then slay them, such is the
recompense of unbelievers."

ix.5-6: "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find
them."

iv.76: "Those who believe fight in the cause of God..."

viii.12: "I will instill terror into the hearts of the Infidels,
strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every
fingertip."

viii.39-42: "Say to the Infidels: If they desist from their unbelief,
what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to it,
they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then
against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it
God's."

ii.256: "But they who believe, and who fly their country, and fight in
the cause of God may hope for God's mercy: and God is Gracious,
Merciful."

viii. 15, 16: "Believers, when you meet the unbelievers preparing for
battle do not turn your backs to them. [ Anyone who does ] shall incur
the wrath of God and hell shall be his home: an evil dwelling indeed
".

ix.39: "If you do not fight, He will punish you severely, and put
others in your place."

ix.29,30: "Declare war upon those to whom the Scriptures were revealed
but believe neither in God nor the Last Day ,and who do not forbid
that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who refuse to
acknowledge the true religion [Islam] until they pay the poll-tax
without reservation and are totally subjugated.

That should be enough for us to start with. As you can see, most any
of those standing alone may be used to back the statement that the
followers of Islam are commanded to "kill the infidel." It is a very
impressive aray of material for those who wish to push such a concept.

Some or all of these Koranic verses are being used by some angry
anti-Islamic speakers and clergy who point to them and say: "See, the
God of the Koran commands all Moslems to kill non-Moslems."

In a multi-cultural society such as ours, this is a very dangerous
thing indeed. When somebody tells us that our friend and neighbor,
who has always been friendly, helpful and kind, is secretly obligated
to kill us, many of us will begin to treat that friend and neighbor as
an enemy. The accusation that the Koran teaches absolute jihad
against all non-Moslems is the kind of charge that helped convince
Christians in Bosnia to turn on lifelong friends and neighbors and put
them in concentration camps.

To add to the fire, here are a few more Koranic verses:

Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them 2:191

Fight and slay the pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait
for them in every stratagem. 9:5

Slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that
they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have
a great punishment in the world hereafter. 5:34

And the Lord our god delivered him before us...and we took all his
cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men and the women and
the little ones, of every city we left none to remain.

Of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God give thee for an
inheritance, thou shall save alive nothing that breatheth.

Actually, I just lied to you, and in front of the whole world. The
last two verses are from the Bible. - Deuteronomy 2:33-4 and 20:16

I will be relating to them soon. There is a reason I put them here.

If you look at other verses in the Koran, you will find a contrasting
message. - "Even if you stretch out your hand against me to kill me, I
shall not stretch out my hand against you to kill you." - also - "If
anyone murders an innocent person, it will be as if he has murdered
the whole of humanity."

You will also find that if the verses from the Koran I used above to
demonstrate that the Koran teaches the followers of Islam to "kill
infidels" are placed within their context rather than standing alone,
they relate to defensive actions rather than aggressive ones. One of
the ones you used as an example, ii:191 contains the words "and drive
them out from whence they drove you out." The very nature of that
phrase itself makes it clear that the verse is related to defensive
action to take 'after' one has already been attacked. How so many
anti-Islamic people hearing those words, and how so many anti-Islamic
clergy who are spouting them, cannot realize what it is they have just
heard or have just spoken is far beyond my feeble brain to comprehend.

To illustrate the point, let's actually put ii:191 in context with
what comes right before and after:

ii:190 "Fight in the way of God those who wage war on you, and do not
commit aggression. God does not like aggressors
ii:191 "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from
whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter,
and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with
you in it, but if they do fight with you, then slay them, such is the
recompense of unbelievers.
ii:192 "Accomplish the Pilgrimage and visitation of the holy places in
honor of God, and if you are hemmed in by foes, send whatever offering
shall be the easiest, and shave not your heads until the offering
reach the place of sacrifice. but whoever among you is sick, or has
an ailment of the head, must expiate by fasting, or alms, or an
offering.
ii:193 "But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except
against wrongdoers. And one who attacks you, attack him in like
manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to God, and know God is
with those who ward off evil."

Now, even though ii:191 is used by anti-Islamic clergy as one of the
absolute proofs of Islam's command to "kill infidels," you can see
that when it is placed in context it is no more than "defensive"
instruction. The "kill them wherever you find them" relates back to
the aggressors of ii:190. - ii:192 gives instruction on how to
handle religious duties while "hemmed in by foes." - And ii193
instructs Moslems to lay down their arms if those who are attacking do
so. "But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against
wrongdoers."

Here is another example of how Koranic scripture is twisted to
establish a claim that Moslems are commanded to "kill infidels."

viii.12: "I will instill terror into the hearts of the Infidels,
strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every
fingertip."

Quoting that passage as a stand alone Koranic verse, as those who are
demonizing Islam do, is the same as saying Patrick Henry said "Give me
death." Of course we know that the real quote was "Give me liberty or
give me death," but when taken out of context it sounds ludicrous.

To explain how this Koranic passage is taken out of context, we do not
refer back to other text as much as we need to know the history of the
events it refers to and how it relates to the Koranic teaching itself.
I would venture to guess that very few of the anti-Islamic agitators
have bothered to find out.

First of all, look at the way it is written. Koranic passages such as
the ones dealing with defensive actions we already covered above read
as instructions. However, you will notice this one does not. It is a
first person narrative. "I will instill terror..." The passage
begins with "I." In this passage, it is God speaking about what "He"
is going to do. It is not speaking about what Moslems are supposed to
do.

Mohammed and his followers were attacked by surrounding tribes of
Pagans, not Christians or Jews. Incidently, this particular tribe of
pagans practiced human sacrifice by burying selected daughters alive.
Archaeological research has found much evidence of these people and
their practices. Such practices enraged Mohammed, but that is beside
the point here. In the verse cited, God is explaining how he plans
to help the Moslems to victory.

Now this chapter in the Koran is quite long and I'm not going to quote
the whole thing here. But the passage cited is verse 12. For those
who believe or teach that this particular passage refers to an unwise
or unfair God who condemns all non-Moslems to a violent death, simply
keep reading. When they reach verse 61, they will find - - "But if
the enemy incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace and
trust in God, for he is the one who hears and knows.

Not only does this verse not relate to any command for Moslems to
"kill infidels," it actually goes on to tell Moslems to 'stop' killing
even 'daughter sacrificing pagans' as long as the pagans are willing
to be peaceful.

We can continue this right on through any of the Koranic quotes used
by the anti-Moslem Christian clergy but I think you can now see why
doing so in this kind of format would entail the writting of an answer
that would be virtually a book. I think, perhaps, you can also see
why I said you have asked an "enormous question," one which will take
days to research and answer. Each of your 5 claims will need to be
addressed in a similar manner. And guess what? There is so much more
than can be done, that this response is still "shallow" and may well
still be considered "opinion."

You mentioned the people in the South and their ability to believe
this rubbish without checking things out any further. Please don't
just single out the South. This is a nationwide problem. It is
reprehensible, but none the less it is believed by millions of
otherwise good people.

If anti-Christians used the Bible in a similar manner (and many do),
they could convince many of their own that Christianity teaches its
followers to kill witches and stone to death disobedient children.
They could quote chapter and verse all the scripture that supports it.

Scriptural literalism can be a heavy moral burden to bear.

In as much as this is a "comment" rather than a formal answer, and
because of the fact that I will be using many of the same resources
over and over as I go through each "claim," I will simply post all
citations at the same time at the end as a single "bibliography."

I hope this has helped you somewhat with claim number 1.

cheers
digsalot

NOYB wrote:

He also goes on to quote Deuteronomy to show how Christian religious beliefs
are just as violent. There's only one small problem with that analysis:
Deuteronomy is from the Old Testament...and Christians base their belief in
the teachings of Christ.

I see little evidence that "Christians" base their beliefs and more
imporantly, their behavior, on "the teachings of Christ."

Those who seem to profess their Christianity the loudest seem to behave
in the least Christian ways. In this country, the Protestant
evangelicals seem the worst offenders.

In fact, your hero, George W. Bush, is the antithesis of a Christian,
if, by Christian, you mean someone who follows the important teachings
of Jesus. Instead of emulating Mother Teresa, Bush follows Karl Rove.


--
We today have a president of the United States who looks like he is the
son of Howdy Doody or Alfred E. Newman, who isn't smarter than either of
them, who is arrogant about his ignorance, who is reckless and
incompetent, and whose backers are turning the United States into a pariah.

What, me worry?

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Instead of emulating Mother Teresa, Bush follows Karl Rove.

If you squint hard enough, you can see a resemblance.

NOYB wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Instead of emulating Mother Teresa, Bush follows Karl Rove.

If you squint hard enough, you can see a resemblance.


Well, I knew Bush was Rove's dummy...wooden head and all.

--
We today have a president of the United States who looks like he is the
son of Howdy Doody or Alfred E. Newman, who isn't smarter than either of
them, who is arrogant about his ignorance, who is reckless and
incompetent, and whose backers are turning the United States into a pariah.

What, me worry?

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:41:13 +0000, NOYB wrote:


bin Laden claims that all of the attacks are done to get us out of Saudi
Arabia. However, we are there at the behest of the Saudi Royal family.
If they asked us to leave, I guess that we'd be beholden to leave. The
violence wouldn't stop, however, until the Jews were also expelled from
Israel...and that will never happen.

Uh, we have left Saudi Arabia. GWB, tough talk, weak stick. Can you say
appeasement?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2984547.stm

"NOYB" wrote in message
...

Islam and Christianity cannot coexist because the Quran directs Muslims to
either convert the unbelievers...or kill them.

You might make a point of remembering that a similar viewpoint is held by
many Kristians, except it's worse. At some vague point ("judgement day"),
non believers will be wasted. Too bad if the Buddhist next door happened to
be the kindest person on earth. He's dust when JC returns.

"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:41:13 +0000, NOYB wrote:


bin Laden claims that all of the attacks are done to get us out of Saudi
Arabia. However, we are there at the behest of the Saudi Royal family.
If they asked us to leave, I guess that we'd be beholden to leave. The
violence wouldn't stop, however, until the Jews were also expelled from
Israel...and that will never happen.

Uh, we have left Saudi Arabia. GWB, tough talk, weak stick. Can you say
appeasement?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2984547.stm

Depends on which "we" you refer to. Saudi Arabia is our single largest
customer for weapons. People Who Know These Things estimate that every time
you fill your gas tank, a buck comes back to this country to pay an invoice
(so to speak) for a fighter jet. Human interest detail: Another buck keeps
the Saud men neck deep in prostitutes & booze.

Doug Kanter wrote:
"NOYB" wrote in message
...

Islam and Christianity cannot coexist because the Quran directs Muslims to
either convert the unbelievers...or kill them.

You might make a point of remembering that a similar viewpoint is held by
many Kristians, except it's worse. At some vague point ("judgement day"),
non believers will be wasted. Too bad if the Buddhist next door happened to
be the kindest person on earth. He's dust when JC returns.



That fundie Christian belief really is pretty funny, considering Jesus
was born Jewish, lived Jewish, and died Jewish, and had no desire to
convert heathens to Judaism, or even associate with non-Jews. What a
giggle...Jesus "comes back," gets directions to the nearest synagogue,
and still avoids associating with non-Jews.

I occasionally encounter "Christians" who are openly obnoxious about
their religious beliefs, who are always asking others if they've "found
Jesus," and who deny Jesus was Jewish. "Oh...he was something else...NOT
Jewish." Right...and the Last Supper was a pizza party, not a Passover
seder. Right after celebrating the Jewish religious holiday as a Jew,
Jesus must have converted himself to...to...well, something.


--
We today have a president of the United States who looks like he is the
son of Howdy Doody or Alfred E. Newman, who isn't smarter than either of
them, who is arrogant about his ignorance, who is reckless and
incompetent, and whose backers are turning the United States into a pariah.

What, me worry?