"Woodchuck" wrote in message ...
Over here in Western Pennsylvania I use Sunoco 93 octane and haven't had any
problems. I used the same fuel since 99 in my Mercury OB. 10%, don't think
so as the max is no more than 5% from Sunoco.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Ok here some fact about alcohol addition to fuel:
For a long time people have sometimes added a bit of alcohol to the
gasoline in areas where water might get into the gas tank. The water
does not mix with the gasoline and in cold climates can freeze in the
gas line and in warmer climates prevent the engine from starting.
Water is not a good fuel. Addition of the alcohol will cause formation
of a ternarty mixture with the water and the gasoline and avoid the
water from separating out.

More recnetly in some states like california the EPA in order to
reduce engine pollution the government has mandated the use of
Oxygenated fuels. This is gasoline that has up to 10% alcohol added to
make the gasoline burn cleaner. The 10% number comes from an agreement
of automobile engine manufacturers who have agreed that up to 10 % the
engine is not harmed and no special adjustment is required.
With more than 10% alcohol the power of the engine is reduced and
parts may suffer. In Brazil some cars use pure alcohol, these are
special engines and people don't like them because they have no power
( I used to live there and had a car with an alcohol engine)

For these reasons I don't think that poor running of an engine with a
gasoline/10% alcohol is the problem. Water tends to cause starting
problems but once the engine is running at high speed the water tends
to disperse ( not dissolve ) and go through the engine with the
gasoline.

There may be several reasons for the stalling problem. Most likely the
engines are starved of fuel when revved. Since it occurs on both
engines it may be a simple as some blockage in the fuel line that
allows some fuel to get through, enough for idle, but not enough for a
high rev. S I would look for the problem in the fuel filters, fuel
line, fuel pump etc

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.

why do you think that? ethanol has a different fuel/air mixture ratio than
gas/air, so needs different jets.

No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was.

race engines did it for years.

Part of problem is that the gas formula isn't consistent across the country.
Non attainment areas have a different formula than say, rural Nebraska. The
Atlantic coast might have yet another regional formula. A production item
such as a carbureted outboard or inboard marine engine is a "one size fits
all applications" product. It works great in some areas and not so great in
others. Since those carbs are designed for an average gas formula (or for
whatever standard the engineers has chosen) it is impossible to set them
optimum when the gas supply is different from that original standard.

My comments are aimed at productions engines rather than something more
custom such as a race engine. I have seen rejetting offered as a
manufacture's solution in the past but don't recall seeing that recently. A
person could experiment with the jets try to get an improvement. With the
stalling problem, such as what the original poster had, rejetting might not
cure that problem. Those low speed circuits are partially controlled by the
size of drilled passageways, not something readily adjustable.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.

why do you think that? ethanol has a different fuel/air mixture ratio
than
gas/air, so needs different jets.

No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was.

race engines did it for years.

I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message ...
One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...
Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message ...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Hi Matt,

Sorry, but I agree with Matt. Lotsa oxygen, but an organic chemist could
help us about the locations that they are stuck on. Suspect that is what
people are talking about with oxygenated fuels.

surfnturf

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message
...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along
with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen
and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine.
No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and
sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in
each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is
the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

Uhhh, kinda embarrassed. Too long since high school, should have done my
research before spouting off... I'll back the other Matt now. Cs&Hs, no Os
until you get into the additives etc.

Been fooling around with wood chemistry too much.

surfnturf

snip the embarassment
"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)

dood, that is utter bull****. that lab you retired from was a back woods drug
lab.

do a google (if you are capable) on the chemical makeup of octane and see how
many oxygen atoms you find.

From: Matt Colie
Date: 9/23/2004 6:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Matt,

Believe it.

Of that stuff you call gasoline (those things that come of the the
distillation between 100 and 200 degF) there is no chemical formulae.

It is all organic hydrocarbon and the best they can due is provide a
hydrogen/cardon ratio. And that is Gasoline...

What gets added after that is anybody's bet. It isn't Tetraethyllead
Pb(C2H5)4 anymore, but it can be any portion of a chemical alphabet
soup (like MTBE, TAME and ETBE) with out even getting to the oxygenates.

Most what was added in teh pst improved the octane rating. now what is
added is largely to improve the combustion efficiency.

Matt Colie (Engine Lab Rat -ret)


Matt Lang wrote:
I find it highly unlikely that there are no Oxygen (O) atoms in gas....

Matt

"Ken" wrote in message
...

One thing with ethanol is that the stuff contains oxygen atoms along with
the hydrogen and carbon atoms, where as straight gasoline is hydrogen and
carbon only. The oxygen tends to lean the mixture entering the engine. No
matter what carb setting you apply after that, the air/fuel ratio never
gets
back to what it was. A lean mixture will burn hotter and more readily
creates detonation and preignition (4 cylinders inboards tend to have
dieseling problems with the stuff). It can also cause stalling problems.
With cars the oxygenated fuels tends to work ok as the computers and
sensors
keep a good control. With marine engines its a problem.


"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

Both of my power boats have developed severe engine hesitation
problems. They run okay at idle but sputter and stall when revved. My
mechanics have complained that they are seeing this problem left and
right - and are blaming it on the gasoline, which around here (Long
Island, NY) now contains 10% ethanol. I know ethanol is not good for
rubberized fuel lines, but did not know it caused running problems
(unless the fuel lines are deteriorating and clogging). The gas in each
boat was purchased at a different fuel dock.

If my mechanics are correct, this is a serious regional (national?)
problem. Anyone else experiencing difficulty? Any comments or
suggestions? How can we get gasoline without ethanol in it? How is the
marine industry addressing this?

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."

(JAXAshby) wrote in message ...

do a google (if you are capable) on the chemical makeup of octane and see how
many oxygen atoms you find.

Or you could look up the octane rating of methanol (about 100 on the
(R+M)/2 scale) and its chemical formula (CH3OH) and note that a liquid
fuel with a high octane rating can have as many oxygens as carbons.

The octane number on the pump does not tell you how much "real octane"
is in the gasoline. Extra credit exercise: look up octane numbers for
"normal octane", "normal heptane" and "iso-octane" (a.k.a.
2,2,4-trimethyl pentane).

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