Emergency diesel shutdown
 

"Karl Denninger" wrote in message
...

In article ,
NetSock wrote:
There are specific cautions on doing this test at speeds above idle in
the
Detroit shop manual that I have, and the reason is the blower oil
seals.
The engine will draw vacuum against the shaft seals in the blower and
they
are not designed to seal against that.

2-stroke diesels do not produce a vacuum.

Bull****.

Sorry, but true.

The blowers on top of them are positive-displacement (well, close to it
anyway) devices.

In fact, without the blower the engine won't run.

Correct. The engine does NOT create a vacuum to displace the new air
charge...the blower forces the air charge in under pressure, when the
scavenging ports are opened by the pistons.

2-stroke diesels do not produce a vacuum.

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
NetSock wrote:
2-stroke diesels do not produce a vacuum.

The Roots type blower used to provide scavenging air to many 2-stroke
diesels will produce a very high vacuum.

I can attest to the fact that a runaway 2-stroke will pull enough vacuum
to crush and collapse many feet of sheet metal intake trunking.

Rick

Oh! In that sense you are correct. I was referring to the internal (past the
blower) 2-stroke diesel engine. There is never a vacuum against the intake
ports, or in the cylinders. In fact, the plenum is always "pressurized" when
running.

Past the blower, a 2-stoke diesels do not produce a vacuum.

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

NetSock wrote:

Past the blower, a 2-stoke diesels do not produce a vacuum.

No one ever said they did. Karl was talking about the blower and what
occurred within the blower housing.

But since you brought it up ... 8-)

Quite a few early 2-stroke diesel engines produced a vacuum without
benefit of roots or any blowers at all.

Rick

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

"NetSock" wrote in message ...
There are specific cautions on doing this test at speeds above idle in the
Detroit shop manual that I have, and the reason is the blower oil seals.
The engine will draw vacuum against the shaft seals in the blower and they
are not designed to seal against that.

2-stroke diesels do not produce a vacuum.

There is a vacuum produced "upstream" of the blower - the fact that
the blower is sucking air into the engine tells you there is a vacuum
somewhere. It just isn't produced by descending pistons.

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Karl Denninger wrote:

Actually, they can produce SEVERAL atmospheres of vacuum - those blowers
are pretty awesome, all things considered :)

You didn't REALLY write that did you?

Rick

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Karl Denninger wrote:

(It will pull a near-zero-zero vacuum..... as will the fuel pump, in fact.
I've seen the fuel restriction gauge showing effectively a zero vacuum when
I foolishly started the engine without remembering to turn on the fuel
valves first....)

Cringe ... zero vacuum is one atmosphere, one Bar, or around 14.7 pounds
per square inch absolute, it is no vacuum at all.

The most complete vacuum you can produce will still only create a
pressure differential of 14.7 pounds per square inch at sea level, or
one atmoshphere.

Rick

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

On 11 Dec 2003 03:04:00 GMT, (Karl Denninger)
wrote:


In article . net,
Rick wrote:
Karl Denninger wrote:

(It will pull a near-zero-zero vacuum..... as will the fuel pump, in fact.
I've seen the fuel restriction gauge showing effectively a zero vacuum when
I foolishly started the engine without remembering to turn on the fuel
valves first....)

Cringe ... zero vacuum is one atmosphere, one Bar, or around 14.7 pounds
per square inch absolute, it is no vacuum at all.

The most complete vacuum you can produce will still only create a
pressure differential of 14.7 pounds per square inch at sea level, or
one atmoshphere.

Rick

"zero-zero" in my view means "absolute vacuum", or -14.7 psig.....

It would probably be better for you to define an absolute vacuum as 0
psi instead of -14.7 psig. Your way depends on your altitude, the
barometric pressure.

Steve

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Steven Shelikoff wrote:


It would probably be better for you to define an absolute vacuum as 0
psi instead of -14.7 psig.

It is far better to describe it as it really is. An absolute vacuum (or
as close as we can get to one) is about .0049 psi.

There is no such thing as -X.X pounds per square inch.

Rick

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Ummmm...the normal shutdown of a diesel (like my Cummins equipped Dodge) IS to
kill the electrical supply. Thereby closing the fuel shut off valve. Had a
problem once with the starter bypass ckt once that required pulling the
electrical plug off the fuel valve to kill the motor. My owners manual does
say that the engine will run away if there is enough fuel vapor available in
the area and to remove the supply of air to stop things. Same with a bad turbo
seal that allows the motor to consume its own lube oil.
Mike

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Karl Denninger wrote:

There is no such thing as -X.X pounds per square inch.

Yes there is Rick.

OK, Karl, anything you say.

Rick

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Ummmm...the normal shutdown of a diesel (like my Cummins equipped Dodge) IS
to
kill the electrical supply. Thereby closing the fuel shut off valve.

Most diesels, particularly older models, do not require electricity to supply
fuel to the engine.

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 04:52:17 GMT, Rick wrote:

Steven Shelikoff wrote:


It would probably be better for you to define an absolute vacuum as 0
psi instead of -14.7 psig.

It is far better to describe it as it really is. An absolute vacuum (or
as close as we can get to one) is about .0049 psi.

No, an absolute vacuum is 0 psi. It doesn't matter how close we can get
to one. If 0.0049 psi is as close we can get to one, that only means we
can't generate an absolute vacuum.

There is no such thing as -X.X pounds per square inch.

There may not be an absolute -X.X psi, but there certainly is such a
thing as -X.X psig.

Steve

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

On 11 Dec 2003 05:36:39 GMT, (Karl Denninger)
wrote:


In article ,
Steven Shelikoff wrote:
On 11 Dec 2003 03:04:00 GMT, (Karl Denninger)
wrote:


In article . net,
Rick wrote:
Karl Denninger wrote:

(It will pull a near-zero-zero vacuum..... as will the fuel pump, in fact.
I've seen the fuel restriction gauge showing effectively a zero vacuum when
I foolishly started the engine without remembering to turn on the fuel
valves first....)

Cringe ... zero vacuum is one atmosphere, one Bar, or around 14.7 pounds
per square inch absolute, it is no vacuum at all.

The most complete vacuum you can produce will still only create a
pressure differential of 14.7 pounds per square inch at sea level, or
one atmoshphere.

Rick

"zero-zero" in my view means "absolute vacuum", or -14.7 psig.....

It would probably be better for you to define an absolute vacuum as 0
psi instead of -14.7 psig. Your way depends on your altitude, the
barometric pressure.

Steve

That only works if you have a gauge calibrated in psia instead of psig :)

Most gauges are calibrated in psig...

Then they're not giving an accurate absolute pressure reading if the
pressure of the atmosphere is not 14.7 psi. So you can't use one to
tell you whether you have an absolute vacuum unless you know exactly
what the atmospheric pressure is. That's why you can't define an
absolute vacuum in terms of psig unless you know what the reference is.

In other, more simple words...:) A reading of -14.7 psig only tells you
that the pressure the gauge is reading is 14.7 psi less than the
atmospheric pressure. It tells you nothing about the absolute pressure
you are reading. To know whether you have an absolute vacuum, you have
know the absolute pressure.

If you've defined an absolute vacuum as -14.7 psig and you're reading
that measurement at an atmospheric pressure of 14.71 psi, you still have
some gas in there so it's not an absolute vacuum and your definition is
wrong.

Steve

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

"Karl Denninger" wrote in message
...

You and I both know that's not correct - that their "zero" is really
14.7psi, but nonetheless, their "zero" is calibrated at 14.7psi.

No, their zero isn't calibrated at any pressure. "Gauge" pressure is always
a differential measurement, the difference between what the pressure
"outside" the gauge is and what the gauge is measuring.

The 14.7 value is only applicable at sea level. Go up into the mountains
and the difference between absolute and gauge will be significantly less.
Dunk the gauge underwater and it will be significantly more.

When working with physical characteristics of materials it is necessary to
work with absolute measurements: absolute pressure and absolute
temperature. On these scales, there is no negative. The lowest temperature
is zero, the lowest pressure is 0.

At least with temperature the convention is to use negative numbers when
referencing values below the datum on the "non-zero" scales. With pressure
and acceleration we have the unfortunate habit of giving a different name to
the portion of the axis that lies below the datum. The magnitude is usually
the same, however. A "zero" amount of "deceleration" is the same as a zero
amount of acceleration, that is, the velocity isn't changing. A zero amount
of vacuum should be the same as a zero amount of pressure (gauge).

"Absolute" or "total" vacuum are terms that are often used to represent as
low as you can go, or zero on the absolute pressure scale. What that
represents on the "negative gauge" scale is totally dependant on what the
pressure is that you are referencing as "zero".


Rod McInnis

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

On 11 Dec 2003 16:10:49 GMT, (Karl Denninger)
wrote:


In article ,
Steven Shelikoff wrote:
On 11 Dec 2003 05:36:39 GMT, (Karl Denninger)
wrote:


In article ,
Steven Shelikoff wrote:
On 11 Dec 2003 03:04:00 GMT, (Karl Denninger)
wrote:


In article . net,
Rick wrote:
Karl Denninger wrote:

(It will pull a near-zero-zero vacuum..... as will the fuel pump,
in fact.
I've seen the fuel restriction gauge showing effectively a zero
vacuum when
I foolishly started the engine without remembering to turn on the fuel
valves first....)

Cringe ... zero vacuum is one atmosphere, one Bar, or around 14.7 pounds
per square inch absolute, it is no vacuum at all.

The most complete vacuum you can produce will still only create a
pressure differential of 14.7 pounds per square inch at sea level, or
one atmoshphere.

Rick

"zero-zero" in my view means "absolute vacuum", or -14.7 psig.....

It would probably be better for you to define an absolute vacuum as 0
psi instead of -14.7 psig. Your way depends on your altitude, the
barometric pressure.

Steve

That only works if you have a gauge calibrated in psia instead of psig :)

Most gauges are calibrated in psig...

Then they're not giving an accurate absolute pressure reading if the
pressure of the atmosphere is not 14.7 psi. So you can't use one to
tell you whether you have an absolute vacuum unless you know exactly
what the atmospheric pressure is. That's why you can't define an
absolute vacuum in terms of psig unless you know what the reference is.

In other, more simple words...:) A reading of -14.7 psig only tells you
that the pressure the gauge is reading is 14.7 psi less than the
atmospheric pressure. It tells you nothing about the absolute pressure
you are reading. To know whether you have an absolute vacuum, you have
know the absolute pressure.

If you've defined an absolute vacuum as -14.7 psig and you're reading
that measurement at an atmospheric pressure of 14.71 psi, you still have
some gas in there so it's not an absolute vacuum and your definition is
wrong.

Steve

True.

SOME gauges are referenced to atmospheric, some are sealed units

Those would read psig.

(referenced to whatever atmospheric was when they were manufacturered) and

Those would read psia and the calibration of the scale would depend on
what the atmospheric pressure was when they were sealed.

some are referenced to absolute vacuum.

The latter are pretty rare; you certianly don't seem them in your local
welding or hardware store.

Referencing it to absolute vacuum is the same thing as a sealed unit
with a known absolute pressure sealed in. You only have to change the
scale to whatever you want. You could make is read 0 at whatever
absolute pressure you want, either 0 psi (absolute vacuum) or 14.7 psi
(to simulate psig even though it isn't really psig) or whatever.

Steve

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Rick wrote in message link.net...
Steven Shelikoff wrote:


It would probably be better for you to define an absolute vacuum as 0
psi instead of -14.7 psig.

It is far better to describe it as it really is. An absolute vacuum (or
as close as we can get to one) is about .0049 psi.

There is no such thing as -X.X pounds per square inch.

All depends on the reference. If you are measuring with a gauge where
"zero" is atmospheric pressure then you would see it go below zero
PSIg when suction (vacuum) is applied. If your reference is actually
zero, then yes, there is nothing below zero PSIa.

But then again we are talking about the vacuum (or low pressure) in
the intake of an engine. Intake pressure is normally measured in
inches (Hg) --- perhaps to avoid this arguement altogether.

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

I suggest you guys find a textbook or look up vacuum or metrology on Google.

Rick

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 02:08:36 GMT, Rick wrote:

I suggest you guys find a textbook or look up vacuum or metrology on Google.

Why? Did you find somewhere that says an absolute zero/zero vacuum is
0.0049 psi?

Steve

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

On 12 Dec 2003 01:36:58 GMT, (Karl Denninger)
wrote:


In article ,
Steven Shelikoff wrote:
On 11 Dec 2003 16:10:49 GMT, (Karl Denninger)
wrote:

Those would read psia and the calibration of the scale would depend on
what the atmospheric pressure was when they were sealed.

some are referenced to absolute vacuum.

The latter are pretty rare; you certianly don't seem them in your local
welding or hardware store.

Referencing it to absolute vacuum is the same thing as a sealed unit
with a known absolute pressure sealed in. You only have to change the
scale to whatever you want. You could make is read 0 at whatever
absolute pressure you want, either 0 psi (absolute vacuum) or 14.7 psi
(to simulate psig even though it isn't really psig) or whatever.

That's only true if the scale is calibrated or even extends to the right
place (e.g. there is no "pin" at zero in the case of a gauge that reads
psig as opposed to psia)

Well, sure. The point is that if the gauge has a sealed reference, it's
reading an absolute pressure no matter what it's calibrated to. If the
calibration is off, the reading will be wrong. But it's still reading a
wrong "absolute" pressure. That is, the reading (correct or not) will
not change as the atmospheric pressure changes.

If the reference it open to the atmosphere, it's reading a gauge
pressure, or relative pressure, no matter what it's calibrated to. If
the calibration is off, the reading will be wrong. But it's still
reading a wrong "gauge" pressure. That is, the reading (correct or not)
will change as the atmospheric pressure changes. Unless, of course, the
needle is at the stop and has to go further in that direction.

Steve

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Steven Shelikoff wrote:

Why? Did you find somewhere that says an absolute zero/zero vacuum is
0.0049 psi?

I just made it up. Why don't you look it up and tell us, tell us
anything except -14.7 psi.

This thread is turning into a "How many angels can dance ..." argument
where you guys can't even define and angel.

This stuff isn't rocket science. To expand on Rod's contribution, the
real metrics are available, the standards used throughout the world and
their definitions are readily available to those who prefer to speak the
language of science and technology rather than technical pig latin.

All you accomplish by saying -14 psi is to sound very very ignorant of
how pressure is measured and its standard conversions.

Rick

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 03:36:59 GMT, Rick wrote:

Steven Shelikoff wrote:

Why? Did you find somewhere that says an absolute zero/zero vacuum is
0.0049 psi?

I just made it up. Why don't you look it up and tell us, tell us
anything except -14.7 psi.

I did. I said you couldn't define it as -14.7 psig and that it was 0
psi. Do you have anything to suggest that absolute zero vacuum is not 0
psi?

This thread is turning into a "How many angels can dance ..." argument
where you guys can't even define and angel.

This stuff isn't rocket science. To expand on Rod's contribution, the
real metrics are available, the standards used throughout the world and
their definitions are readily available to those who prefer to speak the
language of science and technology rather than technical pig latin.

All you accomplish by saying -14 psi is to sound very very ignorant of
how pressure is measured and its standard conversions.

If by psi you mean psia, there is no such thing as -14 psia. If you
mean psig, all -14 psig means is that the pressure you're measuring is
14 psi less than the pressure surrounding it. That *could* be an
absolute vacuum *if* the pressure surrounding the gauge is 14 psia.

There are such things as vacuum gauges though, that read positive
numbers as the pressure they're reading decreases. Hell, I have 3 of
them on my boat. Of course, if the pressure they're reading is higher
than the surrounding pressure, they'll go negative until the needle hits
the stop that's just below 0.

All the stuff I've said above is actually pretty simple. What about it
don't you understand? Is it the fact that gauge pressure can be
negative? Is that what's throwing you for a loop?

Steve

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Well, that's as may be, but, my truck has an electric fuel shutoff valve. Most
modern diesels in truck (and I would think also boats) applications do.
Or how does turning the key to off stop the engine? A vastly complicated
mechanical linkage to a manual fuel shut off lever?
The fuel pumps that supply the engine are engine driven of course and require
no electrical power to operate.
The point I was tring to make is that though the engine may run with out
electrical power it requires it to start and stop.
Mike


Gould0738 said:
Most diesels, particularly older models, do not require electricity to supply
fuel to the engine.

In response to a previous post that went (in part):
Ummmm...the normal shutdown of a diesel (like my Cummins equipped Dodge) IS
to
kill the electrical supply. Thereby closing the fuel shut off valve.

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Well, that's as may be, but, my truck has an electric fuel shutoff valve.
Most
modern diesels in truck (and I would think also boats) applications do.
Or how does turning the key to off stop the engine?

Your truck is designed to be started in the same fashion that people are
accustomed to use when starting a car.

A lot of diesel boats don't use the key to start or stop the engine. The key is
turned on to activate the electrical panel and the alternator, but a separate
push button is used to crank the engine. When the engine is shut down, another
push button
activates a solenoid that, yes, does actuate a mechanical fuel shut off
mechanism. Only after the engine comes to a complete halt is the key turned to
"off."

Depriving a gasoline engine of the electricity reuired for the ignition system
would shut down the engine. Unless your diesel needs a constant supply of
electricity to keep the fuel supply flowing,
cutting off electricity will have no effect. As the question was generic in
nature, a choice that applied only in very unique circumstances would not be
the best choice among the answers- even though in those unique circumstances it
would be entirely correct.

My new engine (going in next week, yeah!)
won't even have a key, just a switch. :-)

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Steven Shelikoff wrote:
It would probably be better for you to define an absolute vacuum as 0
psi instead of -14.7 psig.

For extremely low pressures there is a measurement called a Torr. Much more
useful and it also shows (as with all properly used technical jargon) that
you know what you're talking about.



Rick wrote:
It is far better to describe it as it really is. An absolute vacuum (or
as close as we can get to one) is about .0049 psi.

Huh? 1 Pascal is .000145psi. There is off-the-shelf industrial equipment
that goes this low.

http://www.npl.co.uk/pressure/vacuum.html

By my figures, the evacuation pressure they are talking about here is
approximately
0.000000000725psi which is a LOT lower. You could probably could the air
molecules floating by....




There is no such thing as -X.X pounds per square inch.

Great. Next you'll be telling us that vacuum don't suck. ;)

Regards
Doug Kng

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

On 13 Dec 2003 05:46:30 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Well, that's as may be, but, my truck has an electric fuel shutoff valve.
Most
modern diesels in truck (and I would think also boats) applications do.
Or how does turning the key to off stop the engine?

Your truck is designed to be started in the same fashion that people are
accustomed to use when starting a car.

A lot of diesel boats don't use the key to start or stop the engine. The key is
turned on to activate the electrical panel and the alternator, but a separate
push button is used to crank the engine. When the engine is shut down, another
push button
activates a solenoid that, yes, does actuate a mechanical fuel shut off
mechanism. Only after the engine comes to a complete halt is the key turned to
"off."

Or in my case, the engine is started just like a car. i.e., the "on"
position of the key activates the alternator, panel instruments, engine
hours meter, etc., and the "start" position activates the starter. But
to shut down, you pull a knob that is connected to a cable that is
mechanically connected (no solenoid) to a lever on the injector pump
that shuts off the fuel.

Steve

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

On 07 Dec 2003 15:30:50 GMT, ospam (F330 GT) wrote:

A paragraph in a book I've been sent to review seems to be in error.

Either that, or I'm not properly intuitice about this situation.

The paragraph poses a mulitple choice question. "What is the best way to shut
down a runaway diesel engine?"

One choice is a throw-away. "Cut off the electrical supply." Bzzzt! "Thanks
for
playing, and we do have some lovely parting gifts for you........"

The other two choices:

1. Cut off the fuel supply

2. Cut off the air supply

I immediately thought, "the fuel supply. You shut down a diesel by cutting
off
the fuel."

According to the author, the correct answer is supposed to be "Cut off the
air
supply." The author recommends "discharging a fire extinguisher into the air
intake."

Well, first off it would need to be the correct type of fire extinguisher.
Some
extinguishers are charged with halon (which is no longer legal to mfg in the
US
but is imported or recycled from other extinguishers) and a diesel will run
like crazy on halon.

And, I'm aware of emergency shut downs that have been accomplished with CO2
extinguishers, etc. I just thought those were cases where it was impractical
to
cut off the fuel supply.

Wouldn't putting a postive stop to the fuel supply from the injector pump be
a
more certain solution? "Some" air might get sucked into the air intake along
with the fire suppressant, maybe enough to allow the engine to cough past the
extinguisher discharge and keep running. But, the engine absolutely will not
run without fuel.

Shutting off the fuel very far upstream wouldn't be a good choice, as an
engine
can run quite a while on the fuel in lines, filters, etc.

Somebody care to agree, disagree, or show me why my preference for fuel shut
down would be wrong?




Happened to me in the Navy on a GM 278CD (Large 2 stroke V-8 emergency diesel
generator). The only way to shut it down was to close the ventilation for the
compartment and shut the induction valve - this was on a submarine. Turned out
a bearing seal on the Rootes blower had failed and was letting enough oil in to
keep it running (but it was not enough for it to overspeed). A runaway is a
rare occurrence but does happen and has been know to cause them to throw various
internal parts around.

JJ




I've been told that in certain circumstances diesel engines can run on the oil
in the crankcase being sucked into the cylinders, particularly Detroit Diesels.
If this is true, that would make the air shutoff the only correct answer.

Barry

James Johnson
remove the "dot" from after sail in email address to reply

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

James Johnson wrote:


Happened to me in the Navy on a GM 278CD (Large 2 stroke V-8 emergency diesel
generator). The only way to shut it down was to close the ventilation for the
compartment and shut the induction valve - this was on a submarine.

An 8-278 as an aux? Must have been a heck of a squeeze down there.

Rick

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:48:23 GMT, Rick wrote:

The compartments on a submarine are designed to be isolated for flooding
including the ventilation system. As I had posted it wasn't running away just
not shutting down. We evacuated the compartment, isolated it, and then shut the
induction valve. As soon as the diesel stopped we equalized pressures and
remanned watchstations.
It powered an AC emergency generator for a 7,000 ton missile sub (a small one as
these things go).

JJ

James Johnson wrote:


Happened to me in the Navy on a GM 278CD (Large 2 stroke V-8 emergency diesel
generator). The only way to shut it down was to close the ventilation for the
compartment and shut the induction valve - this was on a submarine.

An 8-278 as an aux? Must have been a heck of a squeeze down there.

Rick

James Johnson
remove the "dot" from after sail in email address to reply

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

James Johnson wrote:

It powered an AC emergency generator for a 7,000 ton missile sub

Oh, a nuke. I wasn't aware that they used Clevelands on the nuke boats.
All I ever saw on them was the little FM's.

Real subs 8-)like I sailed on used 268's or short FM's as there wasn't
enough width for the 278's in the engine room lower level.

Rick

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

Karl Denninger wrote:

The reason I raise this in relationship to pressure gauges is that there
are "psig" gauges that are indeed sealed. Scuba pressure gauges are an
example - if they were open to ambient then salt water would corrode the
bejzeezus out of them, so they aren't, yet they still read in "psig".


Karl, those gauges are not "sealed" in the sense of having the bourdon
tube within a pressure capsule. They are sealed and oil filled only for
the purposes of keeping water out of the mechanism. They are subject to
ambient pressure through the oil filling. If they were accurate enough
and had a wide enough scale you would see that they do respond to sea
pressure as they display the differential between tank pressure and sea
pressure.

On our manned deep diving submersibles we placed pressure gauges inside
the pressure hull to read the contents off oxygen and air tanks located
outside the pressure hull. Otherwise they pressure displayed would drop
with increasing depth as any bourdon tube gauge only reads a
differential across the tube.

Rick

Emergency diesel shutdown
 

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:29:00 GMT, Rick wrote:

James Johnson wrote:

It powered an AC emergency generator for a 7,000 ton missile sub

Oh, a nuke. I wasn't aware that they used Clevelands on the nuke boats.
All I ever saw on them was the little FM's.

Real subs 8-)like I sailed on used 268's or short FM's as there wasn't
enough width for the 278's in the engine room lower level.
The SSN-585's (Skipjack class) and the SSBN-598's (George Washington class) had
the diesels in the lower level machinery space on the centerline aft of the
reactor, pretty much filled the whole level. Lighting them off while snorkeling
was a contortionists nightmare - simultaneously operating controls and
monitoring gages that were in front and in back of you. The human engineering
of pretty much everything on those old boats was non-existant. They were rush
through designs from the height of the cold war. The 598's were 585's with a
missile compartment added. The George Washington was originally going to be the
Scorpion (which sank in 68), they cut it apart on the ways and added the missile
compartment.

JJ


Rick


James Johnson
remove the "dot" from after sail in email address to reply