Cleat / Mooring Ring suggestions?
 

I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

TIA

Sunny

"Sunny" wrote in message
.. .
I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

I always vote for cleats on docks because there are days when you're trying
to get a line around SOMETHING as you dock, but the wind is not cooperating,
nobody's there to help and you only have one hand free. Try that with a
ring. If it were me, I'd teach the kids how to look out for the cleats.
Besides, nobody's every died from a stubbed toe.

But, if you insist, you could recess normal cleats. I'm visualizing a way,
but first, two definitions. Rails: The boards which run the length of the
dock. Crosspieces: The other boards - running across the dock. If you
removed a crosspiece or two (whatever's necessary), attached an
appropriately shaped piece (or two) of wood to the inside of each rail, and
shortened the crosspiece(s) in that location, the cleats should sit somewhat
lower than the surrounding surface. To make the resulting notch
finger-friendly (for the person tying the lines), you'd probably want to
angle the edges of the crosspieces as you shorten them.

As far as strength, don't attach cleats with wood screws. Use the thickest
bolts that'll fit the cleats properly, and back the wood with big washers,
or even a plate of metal. Most home centers sell bars of steel that aren't
so hard to cut. I just saw some at Home Depot. Be sure not to buy toy
cleats - the kind that don't fit any rope a smart person would ever use. If
a cleat won't accept 1/2" rope, it's nonsense.

One way to avoid cleats and rings entirely is to bolt a 2x4 along the
edge of the dock using thru bolted spacers every 2 feet or so. The
spacer blocks elevate the 2x4 so that you can tie around it. Easy to
make, harder to describe...

I have done this on the edges of a concrete dock and it's very
effective.

===============================================
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:55:26 -0400, Sunny wrote:
I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

TIA

Sunny

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Sunny" wrote in message
.. .

I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?


I always vote for cleats on docks because there are days when you're trying
to get a line around SOMETHING as you dock, but the wind is not cooperating,
nobody's there to help and you only have one hand free. Try that with a
ring. If it were me, I'd teach the kids how to look out for the cleats.
Besides, nobody's every died from a stubbed toe.

True - despite the fact their howling sounds like they have suffered a
mortal injury :-)

But, if you insist, you could recess normal cleats. I'm visualizing a way,
but first, two definitions. Rails: The boards which run the length of the
dock. Crosspieces: The other boards - running across the dock. If you
removed a crosspiece or two (whatever's necessary), attached an
appropriately shaped piece (or two) of wood to the inside of each rail, and
shortened the crosspiece(s) in that location, the cleats should sit somewhat
lower than the surrounding surface. To make the resulting notch
finger-friendly (for the person tying the lines), you'd probably want to
angle the edges of the crosspieces as you shorten them.

Thanks - I hadn't thought of that approach, and will certainly consider
it. In my case it would involve routing 'cleat recesses' in the 2x6
boards which surround the edge of the dock and mounting the cleats to
the 8x12 beams underneath. I can see that looking quite attractive - but
the recesses would accumulate ice and snow and likely become unusable in
fall.

As far as strength, don't attach cleats with wood screws. Use the thickest
bolts that'll fit the cleats properly, and back the wood with big washers,
or even a plate of metal. Most home centers sell bars of steel that aren't
so hard to cut. I just saw some at Home Depot. Be sure not to buy toy
cleats - the kind that don't fit any rope a smart person would ever use. If
a cleat won't accept 1/2" rope, it's nonsense.

Wayne.B wrote:

One way to avoid cleats and rings entirely is to bolt a 2x4 along the
edge of the dock using thru bolted spacers every 2 feet or so. The
spacer blocks elevate the 2x4 so that you can tie around it. Easy to
make, harder to describe...

I have done this on the edges of a concrete dock and it's very
effective.

Hmmm... very interesting (and economical) idea, but did you mount your
2x4 on the horizontal or vertical surface?

I'm thinking mounting on the horizontal surface would not be very
attractive, while vertical might damage boats if they slam up or down
against it due to wave action - and either way mooring lines might slide
along the 2x4 and allow boats to hit rocks.

This is all a bit difficult to visualize, so I've posted a couple of
pictures - one of the completed dock, and one of the (partially) built
frame so you can see what's underneath for mounting. Beams are 8x12 and
all decking and trim is 6x2:

http://tipperlinne.com/dock

===============================================
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:55:26 -0400, Sunny wrote:

I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

TIA

Sunny

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:44:58 -0400, Sunny wrote:
Hmmm... very interesting (and economical) idea, but did you mount your
2x4 on the horizontal or vertical surface?

I'm thinking mounting on the horizontal surface would not be very
attractive, while vertical might damage boats if they slam up or down
against it due to wave action - and either way mooring lines might slide
along the 2x4 and allow boats to hit rocks.

This is all a bit difficult to visualize, so I've posted a couple of
pictures - one of the completed dock, and one of the (partially) built
frame so you can see what's underneath for mounting. Beams are 8x12 and
all decking and trim is 6x2:

http://tipperlinne.com/dock

===================================

Great looking dock (and property). You can mount the 2x4s either
vertically on the front edge of the dock, or horizontally on the top
edge. Either way it's best to counterbore/recess the washer and bolt
assembly to avoid protruding hardware. My 2x4s are mounted
horizontally on the top edge of the dock and appearance is not really
an issue. Vertical should work OK also as long as you throughbolt
with a backing washer. My 2x4s are lagged into the concrete with zinc
plugs. Different docks, different fasteners. Line slippage is a
minor issue since the spacer blocks will catch it. If you tie the
line next to a spacer block, and oriented with the direction of
strain, there will be no slippage at all. It is an economical
approach compared to stainless or bronze cleats, and you have more
flexibility with positioning your lines since the whole edge of the
dock essentially becomes one large cleat.

Wayne.B wrote:

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:44:58 -0400, Sunny wrote:

Hmmm... very interesting (and economical) idea, but did you mount your
2x4 on the horizontal or vertical surface?

I'm thinking mounting on the horizontal surface would not be very
attractive, while vertical might damage boats if they slam up or down
against it due to wave action - and either way mooring lines might slide
along the 2x4 and allow boats to hit rocks.

This is all a bit difficult to visualize, so I've posted a couple of
pictures - one of the completed dock, and one of the (partially) built
frame so you can see what's underneath for mounting. Beams are 8x12 and
all decking and trim is 6x2:

http://tipperlinne.com/dock


===================================

Great looking dock (and property). You can mount the 2x4s either
vertically on the front edge of the dock, or horizontally on the top
edge. Either way it's best to counterbore/recess the washer and bolt
assembly to avoid protruding hardware. My 2x4s are mounted
horizontally on the top edge of the dock and appearance is not really
an issue. Vertical should work OK also as long as you throughbolt
with a backing washer. My 2x4s are lagged into the concrete with zinc
plugs. Different docks, different fasteners. Line slippage is a
minor issue since the spacer blocks will catch it. If you tie the
line next to a spacer block, and oriented with the direction of
strain, there will be no slippage at all. It is an economical
approach compared to stainless or bronze cleats, and you have more
flexibility with positioning your lines since the whole edge of the
dock essentially becomes one large cleat.

Thanks - the positive feedback is appreciated given how hard I worked to
build that dock!

The more I think about this approach, the more I want to try it to see
how well it works - another advantage that comes to mind is the "cleat
rail" could also be used as a grab handle and step for kids pulling
themselves out of the water onto the dock.

I'm thinking I'll rout all 4 edges of the 2x4 with a 3/4" round-over
bit, and mount it on the vertical face of the dock using 8"x3/8 lag
screws set into the gap between the two face boards with short lengths
of 3/4" galvanised steel pipe as spacers - I could even cut and glue
wood plugs to cover the recessed lag screw heads and improve appearance.

I can do this using tools and materials already on-site, but if it
doesn't work well it could be removed and the mounting holes plugged so
all would be as before the experiment, on the other hand if lag screws
prove inadequate they could be replaced with long bolts right through
the beams for permanence.

Unless someone comes up with a better idea (or a good reason it won't
work), I think I'll try it this weekend :-)

Thanks again,

Sunny

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:53:33 -0400, Sunny wrote:

I'm thinking I'll rout all 4 edges of the 2x4 with a 3/4" round-over
bit, and mount it on the vertical face of the dock using 8"x3/8 lag
screws set into the gap between the two face boards with short lengths
of 3/4" galvanised steel pipe as spacers

=========================================

That's an interesting variation. I'm concerned that the 2x4 may have
a tendency to wobble however unless you use fairly large diameter
pipe. My spacers are 2x4 pieces cut to about 4 inch lengths.

"Sunny" wrote in message
. ..

but
the recesses would accumulate ice and snow and likely become unusable in
fall.


Well...you can't have everything! Bigger recesses and bigger cleats, easier
to smack the accumulated ice with the heel of your shoe or a blunt object.
By the way, if the ice is that thick, won't the boat be out of the water?
Another idea: How about round metal posts, and learn to tie the appropriate
knots.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message news:xIJWc.2232
I always vote for cleats on docks because there are days when you're trying
to get a line around SOMETHING as you dock, but the wind is not cooperating,
nobody's there to help and you only have one hand free. Try that with a
ring. If it were me, I'd teach the kids how to look out for the cleats.
Besides, nobody's every died from a stubbed toe.

But, if you insist, you could recess normal cleats.

Newer Triton bass boats have recessed cleats, kind of what you are
getting at here. the hull about the cleat has a recessed area that the
cleat sits in, and the top of the cleat is at the same elevation as
the top of the gunwale. The outside then has a notch in it about 2
1/2" in width

Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 23:53:33 -0400, Sunny wrote:


I'm thinking I'll rout all 4 edges of the 2x4 with a 3/4" round-over
bit, and mount it on the vertical face of the dock using 8"x3/8 lag
screws set into the gap between the two face boards with short lengths
of 3/4" galvanised steel pipe as spacers


=========================================

That's an interesting variation. I'm concerned that the 2x4 may have
a tendency to wobble however unless you use fairly large diameter
pipe. My spacers are 2x4 pieces cut to about 4 inch lengths.


I agree, and was planning to use large diameter washers at either end of
the spacer pipes. Tack-welding the washers to the pipes is probably a
good idea too.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Sunny" wrote in message
. ..


but
the recesses would accumulate ice and snow and likely become unusable in
fall.



Well...you can't have everything! Bigger recesses and bigger cleats, easier
to smack the accumulated ice with the heel of your shoe or a blunt object.
By the way, if the ice is that thick, won't the boat be out of the water?
Another idea: How about round metal posts, and learn to tie the appropriate
knots.

We usually keep one boat in the water until just before freeze-up since
our cottage is water-access only, and given the high rate of flow
through our lake there is often a month or more of cold, snowy weather
before the lake freezes.

I had considered metal posts, but was still concerned about kid
injuries. I'm reasonably proficient at the appropriate knots, but the
same cannot be said for the rest of the family or most of our visitors.

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:31:20 -0400, Sunny wrote:

I had considered metal posts, but was still concerned about kid
injuries. I'm reasonably proficient at the appropriate knots, but the
same cannot be said for the rest of the family or most of our visitors.

======================================

That's a real concern. I know a fellow who ended up in the hospital
after falling on a dock post.

On my dock I leave the lines permanently tied, cleating and uncleating
from the boat.

with short lengths
of 3/4" galvanised steel pipe as spacers


I agree, and was planning to use large diameter washers at either end of
the spacer pipes. Tack-welding the washers to the pipes is probably a
good idea too.

Pipe/washers might rust, especially if welded. What about slices of heavy
PVC pipe...perhaps held in place by screws inside the circumference and then
furthur clamping by the bolted on "rail"? You might even be able to find
some kind of coupler or fitting that would be the right configuration.

In the Chevy dealership parts department today. There are tie down cleats
for trucks that fit into the stake holes and also can be mounted in the
body. They lay flat when not needed.

"Sunny" wrote in message
. ..


Doug Kanter wrote:

"Sunny" wrote in message
. ..


but
the recesses would accumulate ice and snow and likely become unusable in
fall.



Well...you can't have everything! Bigger recesses and bigger cleats,
easier
to smack the accumulated ice with the heel of your shoe or a blunt
object.
By the way, if the ice is that thick, won't the boat be out of the
water?
Another idea: How about round metal posts, and learn to tie the
appropriate
knots.

We usually keep one boat in the water until just before freeze-up since
our cottage is water-access only, and given the high rate of flow
through our lake there is often a month or more of cold, snowy weather
before the lake freezes.

I had considered metal posts, but was still concerned about kid
injuries. I'm reasonably proficient at the appropriate knots, but the
same cannot be said for the rest of the family or most of our visitors.

"Sunny" wrote in message
. ..


I had considered metal posts, but was still concerned about kid
injuries.

How old are these kids??? I was always very cautious with my son, but at
some point, they have to learn to deal with minor hazards on their own.
They're more likely be attacked by the legs on a coffee table or chair.

What about a 4x4 wooden post? If you polyurethane the bejeezus out of it,
you could avoid using treated wood. You could bevel all the edges to make
them hand-friendly.

I'm reasonably proficient at the appropriate knots, but the
same cannot be said for the rest of the family or most of our visitors.

So, put an eye splice or a bowline at the end of each rope so they only need
to be dropped onto the posts.

Sunny wrote:
I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

TIA

Sunny

Many thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

In the end I found a supplier who stocked 6" black nylon cleats. They
have nicely rounded ends (hard to see how kids could injure themselves),
snow and ice don't adhere very well to nylon, and they seem fairly solid
when mounted with two #14 x 4" stainless steel screws (which go right
through the cedar decking and just over an inch into the fir beams).

This solution was cheap in terms of both financial outlay and
installation time, and I'm optimistic it will prove satisfactory over
the long term.

Pity the same can't be said for my efforts to preserve and protect the
decking - it was nicely dry after 3 days of hot weather, with a 48 hour
forecast of 'a mix of sun and cloud', so I applied a coat of water seal
- then it poured rain for 16 hours straight :-(

Sunny

If you ever replace the nylon cleats and want to entertain the idea of
metal, try West Marine. I bought some stainless steel ones a few years back.
All edges are beautifully smoothed, and they still look as good as the day I
bought them.

"Sunny" wrote in message
.. .


Sunny wrote:
I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

TIA

Sunny

Many thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

In the end I found a supplier who stocked 6" black nylon cleats. They
have nicely rounded ends (hard to see how kids could injure themselves),
snow and ice don't adhere very well to nylon, and they seem fairly solid
when mounted with two #14 x 4" stainless steel screws (which go right
through the cedar decking and just over an inch into the fir beams).

This solution was cheap in terms of both financial outlay and
installation time, and I'm optimistic it will prove satisfactory over
the long term.

Pity the same can't be said for my efforts to preserve and protect the
decking - it was nicely dry after 3 days of hot weather, with a 48 hour
forecast of 'a mix of sun and cloud', so I applied a coat of water seal
- then it poured rain for 16 hours straight :-(

Sunny

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Interesting he picked cedar to deck his deck. It's a pretty wood, and
easy to work, and, of course, it resists rot, but I wonder if it is
strong enough or abrasive-resistant enough for a dock. For the premium
price you pay for cedar, though, you can go with one of the new
"plastic" wood planks, as many of the dockowners around here are doing.
These new products are maintenance-free, don't rot, and result UV, too.

Some of those products look good, too. A neighbor of mine just did a deck
that way. Very attractive. And, no treated lumber concerns with the kiddies
playing on it.

On the other hand, cedar smells good, although I assume the sealants you
apply put an end to that.

Harry Krause wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:


If you ever replace the nylon cleats and want to entertain the idea of
metal, try West Marine. I bought some stainless steel ones a few years back.
All edges are beautifully smoothed, and they still look as good as the day I
bought them.

"Sunny" wrote in message
...


Sunny wrote:

I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

TIA

Sunny

Many thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

In the end I found a supplier who stocked 6" black nylon cleats. They
have nicely rounded ends (hard to see how kids could injure themselves),
snow and ice don't adhere very well to nylon, and they seem fairly solid
when mounted with two #14 x 4" stainless steel screws (which go right
through the cedar decking and just over an inch into the fir beams).

This solution was cheap in terms of both financial outlay and
installation time, and I'm optimistic it will prove satisfactory over
the long term.

Pity the same can't be said for my efforts to preserve and protect the
decking - it was nicely dry after 3 days of hot weather, with a 48 hour
forecast of 'a mix of sun and cloud', so I applied a coat of water seal
- then it poured rain for 16 hours straight :-(

Sunny



Interesting he picked cedar to deck his deck. It's a pretty wood, and
easy to work, and, of course, it resists rot, but I wonder if it is
strong enough or abrasive-resistant enough for a dock. For the premium
price you pay for cedar, though, you can go with one of the new
"plastic" wood planks, as many of the dockowners around here are doing.
These new products are maintenance-free, don't rot, and result UV, too.

We did seriously consider several "plastic" and sawdust-plastic
composite materials available in Canada, but the boss rejected all of
them as unattractive. Also, the total cost worked out to roughly 15%
more than cedar, largely because they required 16" OC framing whereas
24" OC is the standard here for 2x6 cedar decks and docks.

I share your concerns about cedar's strength and abrasion resistance, so
used Douglas Fir and treated spruce for the frame, and designed the dock
such that the decking will not come in contact with boats. The face
boards and deck trim will take the brunt, and are easily replaced if
necessary.

Sunny

Sunny wrote:


Harry Krause wrote:
Doug Kanter wrote:


If you ever replace the nylon cleats and want to entertain the idea of
metal, try West Marine. I bought some stainless steel ones a few years back.
All edges are beautifully smoothed, and they still look as good as the day I
bought them.

"Sunny" wrote in message
m...


Sunny wrote:

I just spent my summer vacation working my butt off building a new dock
at my Muskoka cottage - the old one only lasted 18 years because I used
pine logs and 2 x 6 spruce, but I expect this one to be around a bit
longer due to the 8 x 12 Douglas Fir beams I lugged into place and the
small fortune spent on cedar decking.

We can't use it to moor the boats yet because I haven't found cleats or
mooring rings which meet my requirements at local suppliers. I want
something sturdy enough to withstand wave action (it's a small
freshwater lake, but being on a channel we are subjected to some pretty
inconsiderate wakes), preferably recessed so the kids don't stub their
toes while playing running and diving games, yet still usable in the
late fall when there is often snow and ice on the dock (ice sticks to
galvanised hardware like glue), and, last but not least, rustproof.

The old dock had zinc-plated rings attached with lag-screw eyes. They
held the boats fine (until wood rot set in and they started to pull
out), but the kids were constantly bashing their toes on them and they
rusted. A neighbour has recessed rings which are kid feet-friendly, and
not too bad in fall provided you carry a large screwdriver to prise the
rings up when they are frozen into the recesses, but they are also rusty
- and I'm pretty sure they are actually trapdoor pulls from Home Depot
and were not designed for mooring stresses (Hint: they came with 3/4"
mounting screws).

I've seen some anodised aluminium folding cleats, but they were not
cheap, only available in white (I'd prefer stainless steel), and looked
like they'd be unusable when frozen.

Anyone know where I can obtain recessed stainless steel rings designed
for the task? Or know of a better design given my criteria?

TIA

Sunny

Many thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

In the end I found a supplier who stocked 6" black nylon cleats. They
have nicely rounded ends (hard to see how kids could injure themselves),
snow and ice don't adhere very well to nylon, and they seem fairly solid
when mounted with two #14 x 4" stainless steel screws (which go right
through the cedar decking and just over an inch into the fir beams).

This solution was cheap in terms of both financial outlay and
installation time, and I'm optimistic it will prove satisfactory over
the long term.

Pity the same can't be said for my efforts to preserve and protect the
decking - it was nicely dry after 3 days of hot weather, with a 48 hour
forecast of 'a mix of sun and cloud', so I applied a coat of water seal
- then it poured rain for 16 hours straight :-(

Sunny



Interesting he picked cedar to deck his deck. It's a pretty wood, and
easy to work, and, of course, it resists rot, but I wonder if it is
strong enough or abrasive-resistant enough for a dock. For the premium
price you pay for cedar, though, you can go with one of the new
"plastic" wood planks, as many of the dockowners around here are doing.
These new products are maintenance-free, don't rot, and result UV, too.

We did seriously consider several "plastic" and sawdust-plastic
composite materials available in Canada, but the boss rejected all of
them as unattractive. Also, the total cost worked out to roughly 15%
more than cedar, largely because they required 16" OC framing whereas
24" OC is the standard here for 2x6 cedar decks and docks.

I share your concerns about cedar's strength and abrasion resistance, so
used Douglas Fir and treated spruce for the frame, and designed the dock
such that the decking will not come in contact with boats. The face
boards and deck trim will take the brunt, and are easily replaced if
necessary.

Sunny


Indeed, the plastic wood is not cheap. Good luck with your dock.

--
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
And don't forget to pay your taxes so the rich don't have to!

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:14:15 -0400, Sunny wrote:
In the end I found a supplier who stocked 6" black nylon cleats. They
have nicely rounded ends (hard to see how kids could injure themselves),
snow and ice don't adhere very well to nylon, and they seem fairly solid
when mounted with two #14 x 4" stainless steel screws (which go right
through the cedar decking and just over an inch into the fir beams).
================================================== ==

How heavy is your boat, and how much wind and wave action is it
exposed to?

Wayne.B wrote:

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:14:15 -0400, Sunny wrote:

In the end I found a supplier who stocked 6" black nylon cleats. They
have nicely rounded ends (hard to see how kids could injure themselves),
snow and ice don't adhere very well to nylon, and they seem fairly solid
when mounted with two #14 x 4" stainless steel screws (which go right
through the cedar decking and just over an inch into the fir beams).

================================================== ==

How heavy is your boat, and how much wind and wave action is it
exposed to?

We have too many boats, all small. The heaviest is a 16' aluminum
Starcraft with a 120HP outboard, I'd guess no more than 3000lbs.

The lake is only a mile wide at our location, and we rarely experience
onshore winds. Heaviest wave action is due to inconsiderate wakes from
similar craft to ours. I doubt the cleat screws will break - is that
your concern?

Sunny

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:44:02 -0400, Sunny wrote:

I doubt the cleat screws will break - is that
your concern?

=========================================

That, and working loose from not being thru bolted. The shock loads
imposed by a heavy boat bouncing around are considerable - well into
thousands of pounds. Would you be comfortable if your heaviest boat
dropped vertically by a foor or two and was caught by the cleats?
That sort of loading is fairly routine in rough water.

Sunny wrote:

This is all a bit difficult to visualize, so I've posted a couple of
pictures - one of the completed dock, and one of the (partially) built
frame so you can see what's underneath for mounting. Beams are 8x12 and
all decking and trim is 6x2:

Nice work. How about these: http://www.tempcleat.com/ ?

I don't think I'd leave a boat tied up that way over night, but it
should be fine during the day.

dave

--
-----
news_bucket e-mail address goes to a blackhole. Sorry. Send e-mail to
"respond" at the same domain.
http://www.tempcleat.com/

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:02:49 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

Would you be comfortable if your heaviest boat
dropped vertically by a foor or two and was caught by the cleats?
That sort of loading is fairly routine in rough water.

Make that "a foot or two" .....

If you've got 2 x6 boards which surround the edge of the dock,
couldn't you just mount cleats to those boards, which are in a
vertical orientation? In other words, you'd be mounting the cleats to
the SIDE ("edge") of the dock. They would not be on a walking deck
surface, so no stubbed toes. You'd probably then have to surround
these cleats with buoys or vinyl "bumpers" so that you don't damage
your boat on them, but many people do that anyway and it's not a bad
idea....


Thanks - I hadn't thought of that approach, and will certainly consider
it. In my case it would involve routing 'cleat recesses' in the 2x6
boards which surround the edge of the dock and mounting the cleats to
the 8x12 beams underneath. I can see that looking quite attractive - but
the recesses would accumulate ice and snow and likely become unusable in
fall.

As far as strength, don't attach cleats with wood screws. Use the thickest
bolts that'll fit the cleats properly, and back the wood with big washers,
or even a plate of metal. Most home centers sell bars of steel that aren't
so hard to cut. I just saw some at Home Depot. Be sure not to buy toy
cleats - the kind that don't fit any rope a smart person would ever use. If
a cleat won't accept 1/2" rope, it's nonsense.

Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:02:49 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:


Would you be comfortable if your heaviest boat
dropped vertically by a foor or two and was caught by the cleats?
That sort of loading is fairly routine in rough water.


Make that "a foot or two" .....

The previous dock had mooring rings secured with one 3/8 x 1 1/4" lag
screw, i.e. they didn't even fully penetrate the decking and weren't a
lot thicker than the #14 screws. We didn't have any problems with boats
breaking from their moorings, but I will be keeping a close eye on the
new cleats for the first few months in case they aren't as secure as I
think they are.

Sunny

Calif Bill wrote:

In the Chevy dealership parts department today. There are tie down cleats
for trucks that fit into the stake holes and also can be mounted in the
body. They lay flat when not needed.

Thanks for the suggestion.

The only folding tie downs at my local Chevy dealer were open hooks -
fine if ropes are tied tightly as when securing a load, but not suitable
for mooring boats where ropes have slack.

"Sunny" wrote in message
. ..


Doug Kanter wrote:


"Sunny" wrote in message
om...



but
the recesses would accumulate ice and snow and likely become unusable in
fall.



Well...you can't have everything! Bigger recesses and bigger cleats,

easier

to smack the accumulated ice with the heel of your shoe or a blunt

object.

By the way, if the ice is that thick, won't the boat be out of the

water?

Another idea: How about round metal posts, and learn to tie the

appropriate

knots.

We usually keep one boat in the water until just before freeze-up since
our cottage is water-access only, and given the high rate of flow
through our lake there is often a month or more of cold, snowy weather
before the lake freezes.

I had considered metal posts, but was still concerned about kid
injuries. I'm reasonably proficient at the appropriate knots, but the
same cannot be said for the rest of the family or most of our visitors.

brad wrote:

If you've got 2 x6 boards which surround the edge of the dock,
couldn't you just mount cleats to those boards, which are in a
vertical orientation? In other words, you'd be mounting the cleats to
the SIDE ("edge") of the dock. They would not be on a walking deck
surface, so no stubbed toes. You'd probably then have to surround
these cleats with buoys or vinyl "bumpers" so that you don't damage
your boat on them, but many people do that anyway and it's not a bad
idea....

Good suggestion - thanks.

If anyone manages to stub their toes on the new vinyl cleats, I could
easily move them to the dock face.

Thanks - I hadn't thought of that approach, and will certainly consider
it. In my case it would involve routing 'cleat recesses' in the 2x6
boards which surround the edge of the dock and mounting the cleats to
the 8x12 beams underneath. I can see that looking quite attractive - but
the recesses would accumulate ice and snow and likely become unusable in
fall.


As far as strength, don't attach cleats with wood screws. Use the thickest
bolts that'll fit the cleats properly, and back the wood with big washers,
or even a plate of metal. Most home centers sell bars of steel that aren't
so hard to cut. I just saw some at Home Depot. Be sure not to buy toy
cleats - the kind that don't fit any rope a smart person would ever use. If
a cleat won't accept 1/2" rope, it's nonsense.

Dave Skolnick wrote:

Sunny wrote:


This is all a bit difficult to visualize, so I've posted a couple of
pictures - one of the completed dock, and one of the (partially) built
frame so you can see what's underneath for mounting. Beams are 8x12
and all decking and trim is 6x2:


Nice work. How about these: http://www.tempcleat.com/ ?

Thanks :-)

I carry a couple of devices similar to those in my boat, but they are
spring-loaded so you push down and turn to lock them between deck
boards. Quite good, but I agree I wouldn't be comfortable leaving a boat
unattended for extended periods while using them.

I don't think I'd leave a boat tied up that way over night, but it
should be fine during the day.

dave

--
-----
news_bucket e-mail address goes to a blackhole. Sorry. Send e-mail to
"respond" at the same domain.
http://www.tempcleat.com/