In article ,
4-Boat wrote:

"vze3j5ge" wrote in message
...
My husband and I are considering purchase of a used boat - currently out
of the water at our marina. We've spoken to a marine surveyor we might
hire who says that the engine can be tested to some extent on land but
that we really should put the boat in the water and check it out. Seems
reasonable - but my question is one about procedure. Who usually pays
for the marina to put boat in and take it out again in such a case -
buyer or seller?

Thanks for any help.

Elaine

I probably wouldn't deal with anyone that wouldn't reimburse me if I bought
the boat. I guess that means BUYER pays, SELLER reduces sale price by
survey fee if, AND ONLY IF, the buyer buys. Like I said, I wouldn't DEAL
with anyone who wouldn't accept such reasonable terms. Now if this is a
$2500 boat, it's a different story.

There's nothing reasonable about that.

The buyer is selecting the surveyor, and has the benefit of the survey, deal
or no. The seller has no control over the surveyor or the outcome.

Let's not forget that most insurance companies will require a recent survey
on any larger boat over 5 years old.

Now you want the SELLER to provide you with a survey that you then use to
obtain insurance?!

If you are not sufficiently skilled to determine the condition of the boat
on your own, you're welcome to hire as many surveyors and other experts as
you wish, for whatever you wish, from a cold beer in the local bar to
$25,000.

However, as the seller, I am neither going to recommend a particular person
nor will I reimburse you for the costs of your decision(s) in that regard.

If the boat is on a trailer I'll be more than happy to launch it and take
you for a ride once I've determined that you're actually able and willing to
fund the purchase, and are seriously interested. If I'm already going out,
and have room, I'll generally let you come along with no obligation or
verification - why not? It doesn't cost me anything in that case.

Where it stops is when you want me to pay you to inspect the boat.

--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
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...

There's nothing reasonable about that.

The buyer is selecting the surveyor, and has the benefit of the survey,
deal
or no. The seller has no control over the surveyor or the outcome.

Let's not forget that most insurance companies will require a recent
survey
on any larger boat over 5 years old.

Now you want the SELLER to provide you with a survey that you then use to
obtain insurance?!

If you are not sufficiently skilled to determine the condition of the boat
on your own, you're welcome to hire as many surveyors and other experts as
you wish, for whatever you wish, from a cold beer in the local bar to
$25,000.

However, as the seller, I am neither going to recommend a particular
person
nor will I reimburse you for the costs of your decision(s) in that regard.

If the boat is on a trailer I'll be more than happy to launch it and take
you for a ride once I've determined that you're actually able and willing
to
fund the purchase, and are seriously interested. If I'm already going
out,
and have room, I'll generally let you come along with no obligation or
verification - why not? It doesn't cost me anything in that case.

Where it stops is when you want me to pay you to inspect the boat.


I've bought a few boats, 2 airplanes, a bunch of cars, and a dozen houses
and rentals. I've never had anyone bellyache about picking up the cost of
the inspect IF I bought. Let's all assume a reasonable man standard here.
A home inspect is around 25 cents/foot, a car inspect at autoclub is under
$100. My last boat checkout on a 25 Searay was $250. Big deal in the
scheme of $20K for the seller.

In article ,
4-Boat wrote:
and have room, I'll generally let you come along with no obligation or
verification - why not? It doesn't cost me anything in that case.

Where it stops is when you want me to pay you to inspect the boat.


I've bought a few boats, 2 airplanes, a bunch of cars, and a dozen houses
and rentals. I've never had anyone bellyache about picking up the cost of
the inspect IF I bought. Let's all assume a reasonable man standard here.
A home inspect is around 25 cents/foot, a car inspect at autoclub is under
$100. My last boat checkout on a 25 Searay was $250. Big deal in the
scheme of $20K for the seller.

There is no broker in the world who will accept this, nor any larger boat
seller, and no sane small one either.

You'll always pay, whether he simply adds the $250 to the asking price (and
won't negotiate lower) or otherwise.

You will ALWAYS keep your deals cleaner if you simply pay for those expenses
out of pocket. You're going to pay anyway, and you can expect that anyone
who agrees to such a thing will mark up the actual cost in their "best and
final" offer price.

Thus, it always costs you more to have the seller pick it up. You want me
to pick it up if you buy it? Cool; I'll do that. My "lowest acceptable
price" on the boat just went up $500 (unknown to you), which means I made
100% profit on your demand, and you have no way to even know that this
happened to you.

You think you're getting the seller to "eat" the cost, when in fact not only
is he not eating the cost, he's making a tidy profit on your demand besides.

First rule of negotiating purchases is not to muddy the water by building in
fees and costs that can affect the seller's price.

If you spring this "you pick it up if I buy it" thing AFTER we negotiate a
price, your deal will immediately collapse with any honest and reputable
seller, because he will (correctly) perceive this as your attempt to
renegotiate the price after you've come to an agreement.

--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://boaterforum.com Talk about Boating online - any topic, any time!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME!

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote in message . ..
On 20 Aug 2004 17:05:41 -0700, (Matt Lang) wrote:

vze3j5ge wrote in message ...
My husband and I are considering purchase of a used boat - currently out
of the water at our marina. We've spoken to a marine surveyor we might
hire who says that the engine can be tested to some extent on land but
that we really should put the boat in the water and check it out. Seems
reasonable - but my question is one about procedure. Who usually pays
for the marina to put boat in and take it out again in such a case -
buyer or seller?

~~ snippity do da ~~

A good deal is one that both parties would do again under the same
circumstances knowing what they know after the deal.

Dewd!!!

What planet do yo live on? I want to move there. :)

Later,

Tom


Hahahaha

I am not saying these good deals actually exist

However if one doesnt sell with the intend to rip the other paty as
much as possible then its easier to make deals

Matt

"Tony Thomas" wrote in message news:SVwVc.199231$eM2.173171@attbi_s51...
You are correct. That is what several people including myself have been
saying.




With some filtering applied there is lots of great information in this newsgroup

Matt

On 21 Aug 2004 10:36:16 -0700, (Matt Lang) wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote in message . ..
On 20 Aug 2004 17:05:41 -0700, (Matt Lang) wrote:

vze3j5ge wrote in message ...
My husband and I are considering purchase of a used boat - currently out
of the water at our marina. We've spoken to a marine surveyor we might
hire who says that the engine can be tested to some extent on land but
that we really should put the boat in the water and check it out. Seems
reasonable - but my question is one about procedure. Who usually pays
for the marina to put boat in and take it out again in such a case -
buyer or seller?

~~ snippity do da ~~

A good deal is one that both parties would do again under the same
circumstances knowing what they know after the deal.

Dewd!!!

What planet do yo live on? I want to move there. :)


Hahahaha

I am not saying these good deals actually exist

However if one doesnt sell with the intend to rip the other paty as
much as possible then its easier to make deals

10-4

Later,

Tom

I've bought a few boats, 2 airplanes, a bunch of cars, and a dozen houses
and rentals. I've never had anyone bellyache about picking up the cost
of
the inspect IF I bought. Let's all assume a reasonable man standard
here.
A home inspect is around 25 cents/foot, a car inspect at autoclub is
under
$100. My last boat checkout on a 25 Searay was $250. Big deal in the
scheme of $20K for the seller.

There is no broker in the world who will accept this, nor any larger boat
seller, and no sane small one either.

You'll always pay, whether he simply adds the $250 to the asking price
(and
won't negotiate lower) or otherwise.

You will ALWAYS keep your deals cleaner if you simply pay for those
expenses
out of pocket. You're going to pay anyway, and you can expect that anyone
who agrees to such a thing will mark up the actual cost in their "best and
final" offer price.

Thus, it always costs you more to have the seller pick it up. You want me
to pick it up if you buy it? Cool; I'll do that. My "lowest acceptable
price" on the boat just went up $500 (unknown to you), which means I made
100% profit on your demand, and you have no way to even know that this
happened to you.

You think you're getting the seller to "eat" the cost, when in fact not
only
is he not eating the cost, he's making a tidy profit on your demand
besides.

First rule of negotiating purchases is not to muddy the water by building
in
fees and costs that can affect the seller's price.

If you spring this "you pick it up if I buy it" thing AFTER we negotiate a
price, your deal will immediately collapse with any honest and reputable
seller, because he will (correctly) perceive this as your attempt to
renegotiate the price after you've come to an agreement.

You're free to negotiate anyway your want.

Whether you're a procurement negotiator or a labor negotiator, the BUYER
always negotiates ISSUE by ISSUE and the SELLER always attempts to negotiate
a package. As the BUYER, I'm going after one thing after another, the FIRST
being that I want you to commit to a less than 1% expenditure on an
inspection IF, AND ONLY IF, I buy the boat. If you won't you're
unreasonable. If you do, then you have some OWNERSHIP in the outcome,
especially if I let you have some voice in choosing a mutually agreed upon
inspector. Either way, I win or I walk away because you're too difficult to
work with, and I'd rather know that now than later. And by the way, I've
been in Fortune 200s my entire life, managing spends from $250M to $4B
annual. I've been around the block a few times in major negotiations as the
BUYER.

As I said, you can do what you want. That's fine, it's your style.

But I would still counsel the folks in the original note to just walk away
if they can't get some sort of recognition by the seller of the costs of the
survey. I simply don't want to deal with unreasonable sellers...why should
I?




--
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://boaterforum.com Talk about Boating online - any topic, any time!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME!

It seems like you got an answer that was ... DO WHATEVER YOU CAN.

"vze3j5ge" wrote in message
...
Thanks to all for your prompt, thoughtful and informative answers. We
really appreciate the help.

Elaine

"jps" wrote in message
...

We're talking about a: boat that's sitting in the water needing to be
dry docked so the surveyor can do his under the waterline inspection of
hull, running gear, thru hulls, etc.


or b: sitting on the hard needing to get to the water to be sea-trialed.

No, that's wrong. The original post said this:

"My husband and I are considering purchase of a used boat - currently out of
the water at our marina. "

Did you catch that part? "...currently out of the water..."




For a 28' and under that can fit on a trailer or get a forklift ride,
the expense and time isn't that bad but it's still usually incumbent on
the person looking for confirmation, not on the current owner.


No it's not. If you buy a boat, you're entitled to a sea trial. It's the
seller's responsibility to see to it that the boat is in the water so that
prospective buyer can sea trial it. Of the 4 boats that I sea-trialed, I
bought three of them. One of them had problems, and the owner wouldn't
budge on the price after the sea-trial. Each time (except for one), I put
down a deposit (usually $500 or $1000) prior to the sea-trial. After the
sea-trial, the money was either applied to the purchase, or refunded if the
boat didn't perform as advertised.


When you've got a boat that requires a traveling lift or dry dock to
raise or lower, it's a different story. It can run hundreds of $ to
lift and splash. I'm certainly not going to do that for a perspective
buyer on my dime.

Many marinas in my area either sell the boat on consignment for owner, or
write into the owner's storage contract that the marina is entitled to 10%
of the sales price of the boat if it's sold from their premises. It's not
the owner's dime that is paying for the launch...it's usually the marina's
money...and, many times, they're compensated for it via the commission they
receive on the sale.

In article ,
4-Boat wrote:


I've bought a few boats, 2 airplanes, a bunch of cars, and a dozen houses
and rentals. I've never had anyone bellyache about picking up the cost
of
the inspect IF I bought. Let's all assume a reasonable man standard
here.
A home inspect is around 25 cents/foot, a car inspect at autoclub is
under
$100. My last boat checkout on a 25 Searay was $250. Big deal in the
scheme of $20K for the seller.

There is no broker in the world who will accept this, nor any larger boat
seller, and no sane small one either.

You'll always pay, whether he simply adds the $250 to the asking price
(and
won't negotiate lower) or otherwise.

You will ALWAYS keep your deals cleaner if you simply pay for those
expenses
out of pocket. You're going to pay anyway, and you can expect that anyone
who agrees to such a thing will mark up the actual cost in their "best and
final" offer price.

Thus, it always costs you more to have the seller pick it up. You want me
to pick it up if you buy it? Cool; I'll do that. My "lowest acceptable
price" on the boat just went up $500 (unknown to you), which means I made
100% profit on your demand, and you have no way to even know that this
happened to you.

You think you're getting the seller to "eat" the cost, when in fact not
only
is he not eating the cost, he's making a tidy profit on your demand
besides.

First rule of negotiating purchases is not to muddy the water by building
in
fees and costs that can affect the seller's price.

If you spring this "you pick it up if I buy it" thing AFTER we negotiate a
price, your deal will immediately collapse with any honest and reputable
seller, because he will (correctly) perceive this as your attempt to
renegotiate the price after you've come to an agreement.

You're free to negotiate anyway your want.

Whether you're a procurement negotiator or a labor negotiator, the BUYER
always negotiates ISSUE by ISSUE and the SELLER always attempts to negotiate
a package. As the BUYER, I'm going after one thing after another, the FIRST
being that I want you to commit to a less than 1% expenditure on an
inspection IF, AND ONLY IF, I buy the boat. If you won't you're
unreasonable. If you do, then you have some OWNERSHIP in the outcome,
especially if I let you have some voice in choosing a mutually agreed upon
inspector. Either way, I win or I walk away because you're too difficult to
work with, and I'd rather know that now than later. And by the way, I've
been in Fortune 200s my entire life, managing spends from $250M to $4B
annual. I've been around the block a few times in major negotiations as the
BUYER.

As I said, you can do what you want. That's fine, it's your style.

But I would still counsel the folks in the original note to just walk away
if they can't get some sort of recognition by the seller of the costs of the
survey. I simply don't want to deal with unreasonable sellers...why should
I?

You're not dealing with an "unreasonable seller".

You want an absolute out if you don't like the results of the survey
(irrespective of why) but you want the seller to pay for it.

As I said, you're welcome to make such a demand. If you do it before you
negotiate a price, then you will simply find that the seller adds the cost
to the lowest price he will accept, plus some margin of profit.

If you do it AFTER you have negotiated a price, piecemeal, then you are
dealing in bad faith.

At the point EITHER SIDE attempts to deal in bad faith the transaction is
simply not going to happen the party who is not acting in bad faith has even
half a brain.

BTW, I employed people like you. The first time you attempted to play this
kind of game with a supplier to my firm - negotiating a price and then
taking a second bite at the apple in bad faith - you would have been
fired for cause.

Dishonesty was one of the quickest ways to get canned around my shop.

-
--
Karl Denninger ) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://boaterforum.com Talk about Boating online - any topic, any time!
http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME!